Episode 282: Dr. Jim Grubman: The Psychology of Wealth

30:29Middle class is the best way to be. And when they get the money, which will be a surprise, they're not going to know it's coming because it will demotivate them. They'll be so happy and they'll turn out great because they didn't have all the terrible stuff that rich people do, and they'll have great skills, and it'll work out. There's a few flaws in that argument. We have ample evidence that a lot of middle-class people don't have good financial skills and don't handle money well themselves. Just simply being raised middle-class is no guarantee. Another thing is, I've seen many situations, sad situations.

31:10I can think of one family in particular, where with great encouragement and discussion, they sat down with their now mid-40s adult children to explain how many millions of dollars they had in the family, which you never would have thought of. And they thought the kids are going to be ecstatic, saying, oh, it's so great. Thank you for sparing us the terrible things of growing up rich. And there'd be tremendous Disgratitude, whatever. What they found was that their adult children were really upset, almost horrified. And they said things which I've seen in many situations, things like, why could you not trust us to tell us the truth?

31:58If you had that much money, why did we have to suffer and struggle in some important ways that made a difference in our lives and our kids' lives to this point? when that could have reasonably been helped. The voider mentality of, I want you to struggle because you'll learn that way. It's like, well, sometimes you learn and sometimes it's just struggle and bad things happen. And so the parents were themselves really upset, horrified. At first they said, you kids are just greedy. You don't understand why we did this for you and whatever. And it really caused a big rift in the family until gradually we were able to get to the point of the idea that the kids essentially felt betrayed, that the parents created a false family life.

32:52They had good intention, but it was a secret and secrets are toxic. And that's even if the parents are there to do the big reveal. We haven't even talked about what happens when the parents die and the kids, the grown adult children, sit in a lawyer's office or usually a trust company office someplace. And it's revealed either in general or specific how much money was there. And the same thing happens. The adult children are like, oh, my God, this is a huge secret. And instead of being proud and happy of their parents, they wonder, why could we not talk about this? The problem is now the parents are not there anymore, and you cannot have that conversation.

33:46Instead of avoiding, what happens if people try too hard to adapt to being wealthy? Can you talk a little more about what do you mean by try too hard to adapt to being wealthy? You're talking about the assimilators who... Exactly, yeah. The downside of that, actually, and ironically, is not unlike the downsides of the avoider mentality. The downside is the next generation doesn't learn skills. If you are heavily spending, a lot of materialism, little grounding in gratitude, the motivation for somebody who wants to assimilate as much as possible into the land of wealth is they're only focused on how happy they are to be free of the constraints of not having money, the independence of wealth.

34:40And they just revel in that. Again, in the short run, I can understand it. In the long run, you're teaching your kids no restraints, no constraints. They don't teach good skills for personal financial management. They don't teach good values. They don't model good values. And so what happens in the next generation is a lot of bad stuff can happen, including the money can be lost. But basically, lives are damaged because there's no solid grounding in good values and skills. What do you think contributes to successful integration into the culture of wealth? Well, in some ways, I think, again, an openness and a thoughtful mentality that takes decisions one by one rather than knee-jerk reactions one way or the other, as we talked about.

35:34I think experimentation, ironically. When people become wealthy, they often go through some period of time where you do a little bit of avoidance and then maybe you spend more and then you cut back. And not unlike moving to a new country, you have to try things out. And maybe you try spending more or spending less or spending differently or whatever. And then you see, how does it feel? How does it work? But at least you're open to watching the consequences of your choices and learning from them. So I think maybe if we boiled it down, it's the idea of learning. People who integrate into the culture of wealth have a learning mindset.

36:22They're curious. They want to know. And my guess is you see it in your firm where you can tell those people who are open and curious, who ask you questions, how does this work? What do you think we should do? They try something and then they sheepishly say, well, that didn't work out so well. It was really nice. But a Ferrari, it broke a lot. And I got tired of being owned by the car. And they learned from it and they changed their behavior. And so I think those people who are interested in learning and adapting are the ones who do well. What do you think tends to get in the way of people being open to learning and adapting to wealth?

37:09Well, now you're talking to a psychologist. Sorry. Yeah. Because interestingly, in studies of personality, and actually some of the most prominent personality assessment tests and things, there actually is a quality of openness is one of the major dimensions of personality. We talk about people who are closed-minded. They were closed to this or closed to that rigid thinking versus people who are so open that they flip from one thing to another. There's no stability. There's a sort of optimal level of openness in which you balance something that's really important, which is you balance sort of stability and continuity with flexibility.

38:00And that moderate quality of being open, but also having a solid anchor or that's part of personality. So again, here we're back to the immigrant. Those immigrants to wealth who simply start off with some good personality traits, which often comes from good parenting, when they become wealthy, they carry forward aspects of their personality development, which may predispose them to adopt some of the better strategies of adapting to any culture versus those who were really kind of unprepared to handle the disruption. Oh, that's really interesting. So there's an element there of either on self-reflection or maybe from external input, recognizing what your personality traits are and making sure that you're extra careful depending on what that says.

38:56It is. and we don't have time to go into it, but you may remember, depending upon your age and how much gray hair you may have going on, back in the late 90s and early 2000s, there was a period of time when client profiling and looking at the subsets of who is wealthy or actually, in general, money personality. And some of those studies were actually pretty good. Some studies looked at general society What are the money patterns and personalities among general society? And some were better and some were not so good. Again, some were insecure and avoiders when they didn't have money. Some were highly materialistic when they didn't have money.

39:44And some were thoughtful and solid decision makers when they didn't have money. Remember the demographics. the wealthy population is drawn from the general population and so those who become wealthy depending upon how it occurs are a subset from general society and so you have some of the same money personalities that migrate to the land of wealth and so some of them do better and some of them do not. What should parents be thinking about as they prepare their children to receive wealth? Ooh, that's a big question. And often asked, and I know many listeners have that question. Well, here we could probably spend two or three thousand hours talking about age-appropriate education and skills training and other stuff.

40:40So that's the long answer for that. The short answer is actually, and it's funny because, again, it goes back to adapting parenting. Parenting of a seven-year-old or a nine-year-old needs to be very specific when the family has wealth compared to when you're talking about parenting a 17-year-old or a 27-year-old. One of the things that I often talk about is the idea that when you become wealthy, when the family becomes wealthy, money disappears, especially in the modern world. It becomes in the background. When a middle-class family uses a credit card, and then the credit card bill comes in the mail, and you have to pay bills at the end of the month or periodically and stuff, a child watches their parents having to, well, what used to be write a check, Now maybe it's online or whatever.

41:42But money is present. People more often now have cash, although it is, again, transitioning to more electronic. But kids see money. In wealthy families, a debit card that's linked to a brokerage account that gets automatically paid from a money market account that you manage using plastic for a purchase, the kid never, ever sees the money get changed hands. You have to explicitly reinsert cash transactions, money transactions into life so the kids, remember what I said before? So the kids can see decision making. And so one of the things I often tell a story about how I took one of my wonderful grandchildren to the Lego store.

42:34If you've ever been to a Lego store, you know what a monumental amount of wonderfulness is in that story. And you also know what the prices are on Legos. And I did something that I've written about and others talk about. We went in and basically I was going to do a treasure hunt first. I said, we have a budget of around$100. Going to go around and why don't we talk about what you might want to select. I'll buy you the gift. It's not your money. I will pay for it. But we're going to first look around and you're going to decide how you want to sit. I basically gave her a budget. And she said, okay.

43:19We went around and she tried this. She looked at that. Sometimes she said, well, this and this add up to 100, don't they? And I would say, yeah, you can have both if you want. And then she might do some other stuff. Well, no, that's over the limit. So first of all, I was trying to teach her how to evaluate and make decisions of what's a good value for the money that we have that we're going to spend. Eventually, she picked out something. And then I did something different because we could have gone up, could have given the credit card transaction. She would have taken her hand, give me a kiss on the cheek for grandpa, and that would be it.

43:58But we didn't do that. I was prepared. I had a bunch of$20 bills. So before we went up to the counter, I gave her, I asked her, there's going to be tax. It's going to be a little bit more. So I gave her like$120 in 20s. But in her hand, we go to the counter. The person behind the counter takes the toy and says it's 112, 50 or whatever it was. And so she says, okay. And she takes the 20s in her hands and she counts out 20, 40, 60, 80, 100. And the next one, they take the money in, give her the change back and they give her the thing. She turns to me and she said the thing that was the biggest payoff for the entire exercise.

44:53She looked at me with big eyes and she said, Grandpa, that was a lot of money. I said, yes, it was, but it's okay. You're worth it. I kissed her and everything was fine. She never would have said, that's a lot of money if I had paid for it with plastic. That's really interesting. Kids need to touch it. It's concrete. It's tangible. They need the contact with money as transaction in order to learn some of those skills. Yeah. That's something that you see in other consumer research too, right? The pain of paying with plastic is much lower than it is with cash, but that makes so much sense that you can use that as a tool to teach kids about the pain of paying.

45:38Exactly. And it's sort of like, remember what I said is we had gone around beforehand and I had set her up with the idea is when she pays the money, she will feel this is worth it. Did she make a choice? If she had just picked out something she didn't care about, she might have put it back and say, oh, but it's that idea of decision making. You have to transfer decision-making to children so that they grow up to be great decision-makers in all the roles and responsibilities they're going to have in life. Incredible. That was a great story. Those questions were based on Strangers in Paradise, which is an incredible book that I hope our listeners will read.

46:21And we're going to move on now to questions based on your newer book, Wealth 3.0, which is, I think, a different perspective on the whole topic. What role do you see for professional advisors in managing family wealth? Well, that's a big question. In a way, if we go back to the immigrants and natives metaphor, which really is pretty robust, advisors are sometimes sort of like the mountain guides who help usher people along in an unfamiliar foreign land so that they get to where they need to get to. You know this territory. You're not guessing about quite as much as some of your clients are, and they look to you to help educate and teach them.

47:08I think advisors also can propose questions and suggestions that will get a family to think. Remember all those dilemmas and choice points that your clients have and your clients' children, grown or young? You're incredibly important in being alongside people as they get used to and do that adjustment and then that adaptation as a family and having good advisors who know the territory, are solid, understand some of those decisions, can teach some of those skills, sometimes give a nudge or a little advice, listen. I think one of the things that is under-discussed is your role in just being a listening partner.

48:02And that gets us to Wealth 3.0, which is advisors have not always been the best partners. And they have sometimes stoked some of the fears and things of clients moving into an era where we look at strengths and possibilities more than fears and anxieties. is a role, I think, that the advisory community is more ready to play. So the book is called Wealth 3.0. In the context of managing wealth, what is wealth 1.0? Okay. Let's talk a little bit about the history of our field. All of this sort of came out of a talk that I was asked to give several years ago, and I just sort of had to come up with a methodology or an image of how to think about the progression of our field.

48:53What I sort of termed Wealth 1.0 was the era pre around 1980, 85, in which essentially it was all about the money. And in many parts of financial services, it's still all about the money. Some people actually say, your business is only about the money. We should stay away from other things. But certainly, traditionally, the financial services was largely about taking care of the money, taking care of the money for the family. The choices were much simpler, stocks, bonds, a few other things. There were private bankers for the very wealthy. But not only was it a simpler era, but we have to remember the demographics of that era.

49:40Who is wealthy? Who is much more older, white, male, heterosexual, traditionalist, silent generation, not going to talk about stuff, don't even tell the spouse, certainly don't tell the children about what's going on. That's wealth 1.0. And it lives still in many parts of the field. what was really core was realizing wealth 2.0. Most of what we know and experience and do in wealth management has only been around for about 40 years. And many people are very surprised to hear that. That starting in the 1980s, as a result of some legislative changes and regulatory changes and things, the financial landscape changed tremendously and opened up the beginning of things that we now take for granted, the advent of financial planning.

50:41Much of the field of trust and estates got changed around in law, the multitude of different financial vehicles. But during Wealth 2.0, particularly in the late 80s through the early 2000s, what came up in Wealth 2.0 were the voices of the wealthy. writings and descriptions and discussions where inheritors in particular began to talk about the experience of inherited wealth and the voices of those who became wealthy. The whole dot-com era in the mid-late 90s, sudden wealth syndrome. There's a huge explosion and transformation. And so the breadth of discussion about different aspects of wealth just really exploded.

51:30which was a wonderful thing and something that we should keep. The problem was in Wealth 2.0 that it was framed in ways that really built on the fears and anxieties, particularly of immigrants to wealth. Shortsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations. Some terrible mangling of research findings from the early 80s that had been repeated again and again and again about how wealth fails in family 70 % of wealth transfers fail is the statistic that's often thrown about by the end of the second generation. And the idea was in wealth 2.0 that number one, G1, they're the best. If you're a wealth creator, you earned it, you deserve it.

52:20But also it's likely that your children and your grandchildren will throw it away and they will get deported from the land of wealth. All your hard work will go to naught. And what grew up around Wealth 2.0 were all these sayings and the repetition of bad statistics, which turned out not to be accurate. And the idea that fears somehow are outcomes. Yes, we see evidence, your kids will blow it. And therefore, I, as an advisor, should take care of your family's money for you. We should protect the family from the money. I can do that. And let's tie it up in trusts. Let's do this or that. There was a whole set of strategies that got built in Wealth 2.0 with the implication that wealth actually is toxic.

53:15It's fragile. Let's keep it from your family so that they're okay. And that's how it should go. So that's how Wealth 1.0 got expanded in good ways during Wealth 2.0, more psychological, but then a little bit contaminated by the fear-based pessimism that also grew up in Wealth 2.0. Why do you think the negative aspects of Wealth 2.0 that you just described have been so persistent? Oh, that's an easy one. It is a great story. It's just such a wonderful story. And everybody believes it. We talked earlier in this podcast about the stereotypes about the wealthy. Can you think of any movie or TV show or book or anything that portrays the wealthy as solid, responsible, skilled, down to earth, humble, grateful, and that their kids turn out responsible, grateful, humble, skilled.

54:24General society thinks rich people are screwed up and that they inevitably lose it. And for many of them, it's like, and they should lose it because of how screwed up they are. And so, and we talk in the book, if you know the work of Daniel Kahneman, the psychologist who's an economist, wonderful, wonderful guy, and all the stuff that we developed for behavioral economics and things. A lot of what he says is people don't believe facts. They believe stories. The story is much more powerful. Wealth 2.0 made a great story. and what's going on now and some of the writings that I've done with colleagues and what is a bit of a groundswell on is looking back and seeing the faults and holes in the story that has been Wealth 2.0.

55:20I took a deep dive on some of the research and just couldn't believe how there was no there, there. It had been blown up way beyond what it was. And so the story has so many holes in it and is losing its power. But it's a great story. So this is a perfect setup to now having you describe what is Wealth 3.0. Glad to. Because not only am I so energized about Wealth 3.0, but in much the same way, I've been stunned at the reception of Strangers in Paradise. We're just really being amazed at the reception. Wealth 3.0 as a concept is just capturing and naming something. I haven't invented Wealth 3.0.

56:10We've just kind of named a movement that is beginning to occur in multiple areas, Dennis and Kristen and I. What Wealth 3.0 is, is not unlike a little bit of what we talked about, an integration mentality and adjustment to wealth. it's built upon number one looking at what are the good parts of wealth 2.0 that actually were solid and that we should keep because there's much that was good in the last 40 years that developed the idea that it's more than just the money need to look at the family the psychology integrated services there's a lot of really good stuff that we need to keep so what do we keep that still serves us well, matched to number two, what is a time to let go of that no longer serves us well?

57:05That fear-based pessimism, poor research, lack of standards and credentials and practice on family wealth advising, a lot of things which never got built because it's kind of a cottage industry. And then the third part, which is the most exciting part, which is what do we add, what do we take on that will serve us well for the future? What do we keep? What do we let go of? And what new do we take on more appropriate for the circumstances of the present and the future? And I think that's the wonderful part, the rise of positive psychology, the rise of techniques that instead of leading with as many advisors do, let's talk about what keeps you up at night, which is really a kind of fear negative based approach to discovery.

58:05If I say to you, what are some of the things you'd like to achieve with your family and with the money and what you're doing? That's a more purposeful, strengths-based, resilience-focused approach. There are techniques we talk about in the book adapted from solution-focused techniques in psychology and elsewhere that it's like advisors have to think more about, be careful what you focus on because that's actually what your clients are going to focus on. If I say to you, how worried are you that your kids are going to be entitled? and then let's talk about how to prevent that. That's one approach.

58:48If I say to you, let's talk about what you've already been starting to do with your kids to teach them skills and what can we do to help you to advance that? That's a different set of assumptions. So advisors looking at what are we paying attention to? What are we emphasizing? What are we directing clients to? Are we playing up their fears or are we helping them build on strengths? And that's what Wealth 3.0 is about in building up a much more robust set of credentials and standards, education, training, research, and practice techniques that are consistent with a much better approach to wealth.

59:35It's brilliant. Everything that you're just saying resonated very much. I don't want to talk too much about what we're doing, but. No, it's actually quite legitimate. I mean, I know your firm and you have been a wealth 3.0 ready firm for quite some time. And you're approaching me even for the podcast was related to your interest in this. So there are firms out there like yours that are already moving into wealth 3.0 compared to firms who say, have I told you about shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations. Yeah, no, it all resonates very much. You were touching on this while you're talking just now.

1:00:12What new skills do advisors need to develop to be successful in Wealth 3.0? Oh, again, that's one of the areas I'm just so energized about. And interestingly, finding a lot of advisors are energized about, I'm tired of telling people they're going to fail. What can I do to help them flourish? First of all, in terms of just even watching your language, joking about outlaws in the family, the in-laws that marry in. Those jokes, they're actually pretty painful for the in-laws themselves, and it perpetuates stereotypes. Not talking about assuming there's trust fund babies, all the jokes that we make about inheritors and things.

1:00:54Just really watching for what in other contexts we often call unconscious bias, but sort of checking your biases at the door about the different generations. For example, this is a little parenthetical. One of the biggest impacts we have seen with the discussion about Wealth 3.0 is actually on the third generation. In so many presentations and discussion forums, after talking about this, I have had essentially the grandchildren in the family, the G3s, come up, sometimes with tears in their eyes, and say, you are the first person I have ever heard talk about this in the field that didn't imply that I was going to be the one to ruin the family.

1:01:46I mean, think about that. We've said, you know, wealth fails. It's not going to work out. Your grandchildren have no skills. They don't know what to do with it. Well, those grandchildren have been listening. And removing the burden from their shoulders that they're going to be the ones to destroy the family and ruin the wealth. is huge. And so what we say really makes a difference. Would you have any pragmatic advice for someone in terms of how can they identify advisors who really get the importance of Wealth 3.0? Oh, that's a good one. That's really important. Because if you're sort of a client who is ready for wealth 3.0, you need an advisor who's thinking in 3.0 capable advisor.

1:02:36And I've talked with various firms and advisors and families, and they raise exactly this point. If you're a 3.0 family with 2.0 advisors, that's not a good fit. How do you make a change? If you're a 3.0 firm with 2.0 clients who still think wealth is toxic and it's going to fail, and they want you to do certain things about that, that's not a good fit. But if you're a 3.0 client, how do you identify a 3.0 advisor? Number one, listen. What do they ask about? What do they lead with? do they focus on fears negative outcomes likely difficulties they lead with challenges the challenges of wealth or do they seem to have an remember we talked about openness advisors vary from closed to open and i've had advisors who say hey i've seen sure slaves it's real Why are we not talking about that?

1:03:46The idea that actually we have no evidence whatsoever, no statistics that are any good of exactly what does happen with families. Families do struggle, but don't tell me you actually know how much or how often. So listen to how an advisor approaches things. Are they open to talking about communication techniques? Are they interested? Do they push products or services aimed at controlling the money for the family? Or do they show openness to family communication? Family meetings are probably one of the best things that can be done for a family. But a lot of advisors don't know how to do family meetings or are really nervous about them.

1:04:33Encouraging communication within the family. giving resources that help parents talk to the next generation in ways that are useful. A 3.0 advisor emphasizes strengths more than challenges, asks, what have you already done to begin working on this? Asks, what do you think I can do to help you with it? It's a very collaborative relationship. and if you will allow me that leads into a related area which is collaboration among advisors but i'm going to pause here for a second in case you want to pursue some of the other things first oh please keep going on advisor collaboration well i think one of the biggest new movements that's part of Wealth 3.0 is a rethinking of the nature of wealth management and the fact that it really needs to be collaborative and integrated among the advisors serving a family.

1:05:39In 2.0, and you know this better than I do, a big phrase or label that came up was the advent of the trusted advisor and that desire to be that first phone call. That's a precious position to be the center one. We talk about the quarterback, the general contractor, whatever you want to say. But that wonderful position of the primary advisor for the family that directs everything else, particularly at the ultra high net worth level, that just doesn't cut it anymore. The complexity of wealth and families and the desire of families to have all of their advisors play well with each other, like in kindergarten.

1:06:25It's a different world. The demographics are changing. And the movement is shifting from the trusted advisor to the trusted team. But for a lot of advisors, they see danger in that. It's a threat to their position. They want to be the trusted advisor, and they're not really very good at collaborating with others. Protecting the client relationship is more important. And so for families and clients that are ready for 3.0 approaches, one of the things to watch for is not just how does your advisor talk to you? How do they talk to your other advisors? Are they open, collaborative, willing to function as a team with accountability, or do they want to own the relationship and they are mistrustful or wary or standoffish when you ask them to work with other advisors?

1:07:22That's one of the most important changes that's going on. What about going in the other direction? How receptive do you think clients are to Wealth 3.0 ideas if they're expecting or used to Wealth 1.0 and 2.0 type services? Not very. That's the short answer. That's interesting. And it's funny because actually, I think you may be aware, I am very connected to this thing called the Ultra High Net Worth Institute, which is a nonprofit think tank where we spend a lot of time actually talking about these very things. and integration, collaboration, and sort of Wealth 3.0 approach is something that we are really focused on and spending time developing and thinking through.

1:08:09And that's one of the issues, which is in a lot of financial services, it's not like the clients are beating down the door for a new approach to services. Some of them, many of them don't see the benefit in integrated services. They say, is this going to be more expensive? Is this going to cost me? Why do I need that? I just want to deal with one person. And so there are a lot of clients who are perfectly happy and don't see the wisdom in a new approach. And if that's the case, they need a 1.0 or 2.0 capable advisor. That's a great fit. So a lot depends on, in a sense, the end user or customer.

1:08:59What are their expectations and their mindset, their openness? And is there a good fit with the people who are helping them? What are you most excited about in the emerging Wealth 3.0? I would say two things. One is the change, the front line, where clients and advisors talk to each other and work together. And just what I see of how much better that goes when you focus on strengths and capabilities and purpose rather than fears. But personally, having been in this business for a long time, what I'm most excited is about the other stuff we talk about in the book, which is the development of family wealth advising.

1:09:46finally as a true, good, solid, professional field. We are way behind on where we need to be as a field with standardized, good, solid, broad education and training. Education and training and skillset for advisors in the field is all over the place with no standards. There needs to be some sort of credentialing that actually in the marketplace will tell clients who knows what they're doing and who's kind of working on it. There needs to be solid, much more extensive, good research with good research design so that actually we have a basis for telling clients what we tell them. We are just so far behind where we need to be as a professional field that what has been remarkable and very energizing and empowering is with the discussions of Wealth 3.0, it is amazing how many important organizations are sort of coming out of the woodwork to say, I want a piece of that.

1:10:56We have very significant organizations interested in doing research now in ways that they had begun thinking about, but this has sort of coalesced. We're talking with some of the major professional credentialing organizations, names that you would know, that already support some credentials, but they're looking to beef up credentials. And some of the things that the Institute, the Ultra Net Worth Institute, has done is being recognized as a potential curriculum for training. Wealth 3.0 is bringing together a lot of parties who are on separate tracks and initiatives, somewhat in a similar direction, but it's given a focus and a roadmap in which people are stepping up to be collaborating to make it happen.

1:11:51And so it's going to be years, decades possibly, to really make it all happen. But I'm just really excited to see the movement that's going on. That is very exciting. Our final question for you, Jim, how do you define success in your life? Woo. That's an existential question. I can give you one answer, and that is love. Years ago, I attended a presentation with somebody, and the topic of the presentation was something in financial services, but the guy talked about having done some volunteer work in nursing homes and hospice. And he said, interestingly, at the end of life, what seemed to make the most difference, and I would agree with this, is whether somebody felt that they were loved and that they loved, that they loved somebody, some other people, and that they were loved by others.

1:12:59That's a successful life. And I have to say, in my life, I've been very blessed. And that there are many people that I love and cherish quite a bit. And I feel that I am loved. And so, so far, I'm a happy man. And it's what's really important in life. So that's success in a way that may have been different than what you were asking about, but to love and be loved is the greatest success that I believe one can have. And so far, so good. What a wonderful answer and a perfect cap to just an incredible conversation. Jim, it's been so great to have you. Thank you. Well, thank you for having me. Great questions.

1:13:48And And again, you're speaking and asking from a position where you know a lot about what I'm talking about and you try and live it in the firm. So it's great when we can have that kind of conversation in a deep way like this. So thank you for having me.