Episode 283: When Volatility is Risk, and Introducing The Money Scope Podcast

23:22So we really want it to be something that appeals to everybody. And even though you said it's targeting a Canadian audience, it sounds like it will be very valuable for people around the world. A lot of it is country agnostic. Some of it is very Canadian specific. Even the one on investing, probably 90 % of it is relevant to anybody, but 10 % of it's very Canada specific. But then we also have episodes on investing in a Canadian private corporation. That's very Canadian specific, probably not relevant to somebody in Italy, but probably more than 80 % of the content is not country specific. Yeah.

23:56And a lot of the registered accounts in Canada have similar counterparts in other places. So it is called Money Scope. It's an audio podcast. So it'll be in a normal feed on its own or with the rash reminder feed. It'll be in its own feed and it's going to have its own YouTube channel, which has already been created. And it does have a trailer for the podcast, which Mark created. And then Matt at PWL prettied up and added some clips from the actual podcast to it. I've watched it, I don't know, probably 10 times. It's really fun to watch. So we'll link that in this episode so people can go and watch it.

24:26But yeah, it'll be audio video and then monyscope.ca just right now has a placeholder with the trailer there, but that's where all of the transcripts are going to be. Oh, I see. Okay. And then there's links back to both the looneydoctor.ca as well as our site, correct? Yep. So each episode has, at the end, it has all the references from all of the sources that we sourced throughout the podcast discussion. And it also has links back to relevant or related rational reminder episodes, PWL white papers, and looney doctor blog posts. Love it. I think this is such a good idea. I think you guys are going to kill it.

25:00I've not listened to any of it yet, but I can't wait. I think it's going to be fantastic. And it sounds like it's going to be very evergreen as well. Yeah, that's the intention. It's a lot of work to do the researching and put these together. But if it's evergreen, then we can always just keep referring back to it. And ultimately, it's going to save time. Any final thoughts, guys? I'm excited. When I asked Mark if he wanted to do this, I was like 50-50 whether he'd say yes or no. So when he said yes, it was super exciting. And then it's been a lot of work. Like Mark said, we've put a lot of time into researching and sourcing and figuring out the best way to structure and communicate all this information.

25:37So we spent together a ton of time working through the notes for each episode and then recording is a whole other big chunk of time. So it's a bit of big time commitment. We've had a lot of fun together doing it. I'm pumped for this thing to be released and to see how it's received. Hopefully people like it. We've gotten partway down the track, but we're happy to adjust as we get feedback on it. So So where this scope gets driven to next, I think will be determined by the users. That's part of why I didn't know how many episodes we're ultimately going to do, because if there's a burning question that a ton of listeners have after an episode, we'll probably do another episode to address that.

26:10It's a bit fluid, but we have a general idea of the curriculum, but I think how the audience responds is going to dictate where we go next. Yeah, we're building the hub and who knows where the spokes are going to go. Dr. Mark Soth, great to see you. Super fun. I'm super excited. I've heard bits and pieces from Ben about this. And I think this is going to be a phenomenal endeavor. So congrats to both you guys. Thanks. Thanks. All right. A perfect bridge from talking to Mark is now to go to Mark McGrath with this week's Mark to Market. And couldn't be a better transition, I don't think, between what Ben and Mark will be doing with new podcasts and what you're up to.

26:44So tell us what's up this week for the Mark to Market. We're going to talk more about physician finance today in the spirit of the new podcast that Ben and Mark Soth are launching and And having him on as a guest today, I thought it was an appropriate topic to discuss incorporation for medical professionals in Canada. We'll talk a little bit about why you might want to incorporate a medical practice, what to look for when you're making that decision, and just at a very high level, what the actual steps are to incorporating. Love it. We don't play favorites, by the way. We have two favorite marks, Cameron.

27:13We don't have a favorite mark. Mark Soth and Mark McGrath are both our favorites. True. Very equitable. I appreciate that. Thank you. We'd love all marks. I'll take it. We're tied for first place. Yeah, that's right. Okay. Medical practice incorporation in Canada. So why might you want to incorporate a medical practice? Last I checked, and this was a while ago, I think something like 70 % of all physicians in Canada are incorporated. It's been a while since I've looked this up, but a very high number of Canadian physicians are incorporated. So somebody can fact check me on that. But last time I looked, I think it was around 70%.

27:45Very relevant. Lots of benefits, lots of complexities. The primary reason for physicians to incorporate in Canada is mostly tax related. If we think about other reasons that other business owners might incorporate, there's some other, I guess, the high level reasons you might do that, like liability protection. And Ben, I think you've talked about raising capital for a business. Generally speaking, with few exceptions, that's not too relevant for physicians. So the primary driver behind incorporation are tax reasons. Okay. And I think there's a misconception out there that it depends on how much you earn, but it's really about how much you can save and retain in your medical practice.

28:19So high level overview on corporations, your corporation is a separate legal entity. So your medical professional corporation or MPC is a separate legal entity. Each province, the college of physicians in each province actually has their own bylaws that dictate who's allowed to be a shareholder of a medical corporation. So in Ontario, where you guys are, only a physician or a physician spouse, I believe, can be a shareholder. But in BC, the spouse can be a shareholder if they're not a physician. So different rules there. In Ontario, they're not allowed. The holding company is not allowed to own shares of a medical professional corporation.

28:51In BC, they are allowed, for example. So for every province, you have to be aware of the college bylaws that dictate the structure. And if you're going through the incorporation process, you would work with lawyers and professionals and they would know these rules anyway. So as a physician, it's not something you necessarily need to be on top of if you're working with professionals. But just keep that in mind as listeners across the country. Every province is different. Now, why might you want to incorporate? So again, it's a separate legal entity. And when you practice medicine through a medical corporation, it's the corporation that earns that income.

29:17right? So if we just think about a high level example, let's say you're a physician earning, say$300 ,000. If you are not incorporated, you're basically a sole proprietor. I'm talking about fee for service work and sessional work. Some physicians are salaried, they're employed by a hospital, for example, and they actually have a salary. In those cases, they can't really incorporate and run their salary through the corporation. So this is more for hourly work and sessional work and fee for service work. But if you're not incorporated, you as an individual will earn that$300 ,000 in this example, and you pay tax at your own personal effective tax rates through the different tax brackets, right?

29:49So on a$300 ,000 of income, you're going to pay, I don't know, you might know the number, but call it 35, 40%, something like that. But if you're incorporated, it's your company, it's your corporation that earns that$300 ,000. And in every province, the tax rate on the first 500 ,000, I think Saskatchewan is an exception there, but the first 500 ,000, generally speaking, you would pay a very low tax rate on business income. And medical practice income when you're incorporated is business income. So in our example, $300 ,000 goes through the corporation as income. And in BC, it's taxed at 11%. In Ontario, that would be taxed, I think, 12.2%.

30:21If you compare that to earning that$300 ,000 personally, huge difference in tax there, right? Now, if the company earns that money, and you don't need the whole$300 ,000, let's say your lifestyle expenses and everything else costs you, I don't know, call it$100 ,000. Isn't it a shame when you're not incorporated that you have to pay tax on the whole$300 ,000 when you only need$100 ,000. Enter the medical corporation. The corporation earns $300 ,000. It pays you a salary or dividends of, say,$100 ,000, and it retains the difference inside the company. And that difference, the retained earnings of the company, have only been taxed at a very low tax rate, 11%, 12%.

30:52So it's a tax deferral. So you keep it in the company, and you can invest that money in a corporate investment portfolio. And yes, there's a whole bunch of nuance around taxation of corporate investment portfolios that we won't get into today. But it's a huge tax deferral because that money can be invested. It can grow over years and years. And ideally, when you're in a much lower tax bracket, let's say retirement, or when you actually need the money, and you're not practicing medicine anymore, now you can pay out the corporate portfolio as dividends to yourself in retirement. So you're deferring tax like an RSP, in many ways, you're deferring tax from today, hopefully long into the future.

31:21So that's the primary benefit for physicians. Things like liability protection that other business owners would incorporate for generally aren't relevant, because for and this is not just for physicians, but for all professionals, a corporation does not absolve you of professional liability. So you would need separate insurance or in the case of physicians, they're members of the CMPA. It's not exactly insurance. It's like a big fund that they contribute to that helps them in malpractice cases and that type of thing. So that's why you might incorporate it primarily tax deferral. There are certain instances where you can income split with family members as well through a corporation.

31:52So if you have family members that work for the practice, I was just speaking with a client of mine this morning. She's a physician. Her husband's not, but he does a lot of administrative work in bookkeeping and accounting for the medical practice. So she's able to pay him a salary for that work. There's an income splitting mechanism there. Also post 65, you can also pay dividends to a spouse shareholder. You used to be able to do that prior to 65 until they introduced new tax laws in 2017, I want to say. We call them TOSI for short. It's probably a whole other episode we can do on TOSI. But generally, you can't usually split dividends prior to 65 except for in very certain circumstances.

32:28But after 65, you can. So that's a huge benefit as well. There's other fringe benefits like in estate planning, you can do things like an estate freeze with the corporation. So if you've built up so much wealth in the company that you're likely not going to spend it and you want to pass on some of that wealth to say children or future generations, you can freeze the value of the company for tax purposes and then growth on the investment portfolio or on the value of the company from that point forward can accrue to the next generation. So there's some other benefits there. It does add complexity and it does add costs.

32:57So to incorporate the practice, You need to go talk to lawyers. You need to pay lawyers. You also need to apply to your college. So once you've created this company and found a name for it and worked with lawyers, you have to apply to your provincial college and get authorization from them to practice through the corporation. And on an ongoing basis, you're going to have to file separate tax returns for the company. And that is a pretty steep increase from a personal tax return. It varies according to the accountants, but it could go from, say,$1 ,000 for personal returns to$3 ,000 to$5 ,000 for corporate returns.

33:28So it does add some complexity for sure. Do you have a sense of how much someone should be retaining inside the corporation to make it worthwhile? Great question. It depends. Like every question in financial planning, the answer is always, it depends. There's a bunch of rules of thumb that I've heard varying from$15 ,000 to$50 ,000. You probably know me well enough to know I don't like rules of thumb and every case should be looked at on an individual basis because it really depends on the delta between what your personal tax rate might be versus the corporate tax rate. once you also factor in the additional expenses and complexity of incorporating the business.

34:02I'll give you an example though. There's a client of mine that I've worked with for many years. She works mostly part-time, not full-time. She's done very well for herself. She's well on the road to early retirement. And prior to me working with her, she was working with another advisor. But because her income was, I say only, her income was about$100 ,000, which is typically low for physicians because of her part-time hours, they told her, don't incorporate. You don't make enough money. What they didn't realize is her lifestyle expenses are like$30 ,000 a year. And so she could have retained tens and tens of thousands of dollars each year in the company and defer that into the future.

34:33But by the time that we started working together, she was close enough to that early retirement phase that it probably didn't make sense to incorporate at that time. And that goes back to that misconception I was talking about earlier. It's not really about how much you earn. It's about how much you think you can keep in the company and defer. It's how much you're saving. It's also that you got to think about the full life cycle because the deferral is most valuable if your future tax rate is lower. You go and look at the financial plan for someone thinking about incorporating. If you just look at the differential in current tax rates, it's not going to tell the whole story.

35:01You got to think about how valuable is that deferral of personal income tax because you're going to have the money invested in the corporation. You're then eventually going to pay personal tax to get it out in the future. It depends like to the max. So you could be upside down. You could be and future tax rates are uncertain. I think if you have a spouse involved, that helps again because you can generally income split in retirement. So you can take advantage of household lower tax rates. That's a big benefit. I've had clients that earned over a million dollars a year that never incorporated because they just didn't want the complexity.

35:29It was that simple. They just said, you know what? I'll pay my taxes. I have no problem with it. I'm going to do just fine for myself. And I just don't want the added burden of going through the corporate process. Totally fine. Reasonable answer. Mathematically, maybe not the best, but you know what? Emotionally and psychologically, fine. Makes sense, right? It's a significant additional layer of complexity. Even stuff like, should you use your TFSA? Should you pay an additional dividend or salary to max out your TFSA this year? If you're earning a salary, that decision's already made. The income's personal.

35:57You probably will max out your TFSA. If it's in a corporation, it probably still makes sense, especially if you have a long time horizon, but it's much less obvious. Should you pay down your personal mortgage by paying out a dividend from your corporation? Much more complicated than if it's just at the personal level. And those topics that you just mentioned are at the heart of the decision of whether to incorporate or not, right? Let's say you've just finished residency, you're new to practice, you've got a bunch of student loans, you're really debt adverse, and you just don't want the loans and you're going to spend every single dollar of income paying down those loans, the corporation is not going to benefit you.

36:27Because in theory, if you insert a corporation between you, then you're going to still take all the money out of the corporation to go pay down those loans. And so there's no tax deferral there because you're not leaving money in the company. Another example, clients I've been working with for years, they took on about a$2 million mortgage. Spouses, both physicians, both very high income earners, and they're in their mid-40s now. And they haven't really started saving and investing their money simply because of this mortgage has been their primary focus. And so they're spending every single dollar paying down this mortgage.

36:54And so it doesn't make sense to incorporate yet because they won't be deferring any tax. To your point, Ben, RSPs and TFSAs, if you're maxing those out, then wait until on top of that, there's additional funds that you can retain in the company before you make that decision. Yeah, that's another great point. And then, yeah, the complexity from an estate planning standpoint, it adds a whole bunch of complexity, even though it does add some opportunities. It certainly makes things more complex. Yeah, more room for error too. Cool. That was great. We do talk about a lot of this stuff in the Money Scope podcast, so I'll plug it again.

37:23I assumed you would, but I thought, you know what? It's a good topic. It was top of mind, and I was reading something about it recently. And so I thought, given today's topic, it was relevant. Great topic. We don't get into this until, I don't know, much later episodes anyway. I think we have 15 episodes done, and then this is in the later ones. So it'll be many weeks before we get to it. Can I get a sneak peek? Can you send me that specific episode before it's launched? you can have all the episodes before it launches awesome that's great thanks mark this is our last mark to market for this year so have a great holiday yeah thanks guys likewise see you soon all right mark thanks all right that was another awesome mark to market for mark so let's jump now to our quick look back at what is one of my favorite episodes our episode 198 with gerard o'reilly so let's go with a quick recap of that so in episode 198 we welcome the co-ceo and cio of Dimensional Fund Advisors, Gerard O 'Reilly.

38:18And this is honestly the episode that I've listened to the most often, as Gerard is one of the sharpest communicators in this world of equilibrium-based investing. The reason why I think this episode is a must-listen is simply his ability to take very complicated questions, then step back and build a very solid foundation in his responses, and all with incredible clarity and precision. For example, he dove into question around assessing risk based on ICAPM, which is not exactly the lightest of topics. Gerard also explained how Dimensional decides what criteria any new variables need to be met in order to be considered dimensions of expected returns, how they decide to underweight or exclude securities, how they view intangible assets such as goodwill in their investment strategy was another topic that he covered off beautifully.

39:07We also looked at some of the big changes Dimensional has made over the years and how they manage portfolios. It was also super interesting to hear him describe the commonalities between aeronautics, which was his initial formal training and asset management. Then at the end, he also explained why he has his own financial advisor. That was Gerard O 'Reilly, episode 198. Such a great episode. I'm sure I've listened to it half a dozen times. It's a great one to revisit. He ran circles around the questions that were hard questions and he deconstructed them. Like you said, he built the answer from the ground up and it was just so incredibly clear.

39:43It's kind of a thing at Dimensional to be like a PhD in aeronautics or engineering or whatever, and then arrive at Dimensional and learn finance from Fama and French. It's pretty cool. But you bring your brain to a different problem, right? Which is so interesting how they analyze the problem and then just deconstruct it from the ground up. There were some answers that he gave to those complicated questions that you had for them, that I think the answers are five, seven, maybe even longer than that minutes long. Okay, so let's jump to a book review, which we've not done on our own in a while. And this is a book I know you will love.

40:16It's called Brave New Work. Are You Ready to Reinvent Your Organization by Aaron Dignan? So this is a book that was recommended to be by a friend of mine, Jeff in LA, who heads a wealth management firm down there. And the author is the founder of The Ready, which is a global firm that helps companies adopt what he calls new forms of self-organization and dynamic teaming. So it is a very interesting book and challenges many of the ways that companies that we all work in have been structured over the years. So whether or not you have a role in leadership, this book really makes you think about how organizations might be able to operate, and it's not necessarily like it is in the past.

40:56And he gives examples over the past 100 years, so many things have changed, be it houses, cars, fashion, telecommunications. But he says many of the techniques of how companies are built and managed hasn't changed a bit. Information flows up, decisions flow down, there's a place for everyone in the org chart and everyone in their place. And somehow he argues this way of operating and solving problems and organizations has simply just stayed consistent for many years. And he gave a great example in the book of a framework to think about, which is the roundabout. So instead of using traffic lights, think of how a roundabout works.

41:34So in roundabout, cars enter into this roundabout and share this connection device. It takes whatever, four different directions of traffic and people just feed into it. They know how they work. They learn to trust one another. They interact with one another. Then they keep going on the other side of the roundabout. And Dignan suggests that this is a great metaphor for how organizations can operate. For example, you don't need a traffic cop at a roundabout. People get it. I'm not saying everyone's perfect data. I'm not suggesting that. But by and large, people get how roundabouts work. In the working world, the cop in the traffic lights, or if there was a cop at the roundabout, that would be the manager in a business, right?

42:12So the book suggests that we should think about a world without traffic lights. And those would be budgets, plans, quarterly results. and said that we should really question how businesses operate and try to think of them more like a roundabout. And not only is this possible, but he gives a number of examples where this is actually happening in organizations around the world where they have huge operations, lots of skilled people delivering services with very lean levels of management. So that was pretty cool to look at the examples he gives. And it's interesting because he talks about how people need to be complexity, conscious and complexity is different than complicated a car is complicated software is complicated but if cars are built right and software is built right you know what the outcome is going to be people are complex people are adaptive you never really know how things are going to work out when people are involved but we try to manage in current organizations people like software and cars it doesn't work is the argument that he puts forth so he says stop trying to manage people like software, they're complex.

43:20So his basic premise from there is that humans, people have an innate desire to fulfill potential and that people are naturally motivated and capable of self-direction, much like people going to a roundabout. They're worthy of trust and respect. So external control and the threat of punishment are not the only means to bring people together to accomplish things. This means eliminating the view that people are like software in cars. Here's a quote from the book, the average human being learns under proper conditions not only to accept, but to seek responsibility. The capacity to exercise a relatively high degree of imagination, ingenuity and creativity in the solutions of organizational problems is widely, not narrowly, distributed in the population.

44:03But to accept this, we need to realize that our way of working is completely made up. This is the big point I took from the book. the structures that many organizations are set up as is made up. And he said, this isn't the way it has to be. Another quote that he gives is that policies are organizational scar tissue. They're codified overreactions to situations that are unlikely to happen again. They're collective punishment for the misdeeds of an individual in the past. Super interesting stuff. I know you're all over this framework and view of the working world. He then goes on to talk about the difference between job satisfaction and job dissatisfaction.

44:43For example, pay does not lead to satisfaction. However, it does reduce dissatisfaction. Pay is not a motivator, he argues. Satisfaction comes from motivation and motivation, motivators are things such as recognition for achievement, meaningful and interesting work, involvement in decision making, and advancement of personal growth. You increase satisfaction by improving the nature of the work. Sounds like Dan Pink. Very much. Absolutely. Master autonomy purpose framework. Addressing factors such as company policies, job status and security, supervisory practices and salary and benefits reduce dissatisfaction, but do not increase satisfaction.

45:27So this means that increasing salaries that are too low can reduce job dissatisfaction, but increasing salaries that are already generous won't increase satisfaction in any meaningful or lasting way. Compensation is basically a hygiene. Don't mistake it for higher purpose. So here's some things that you can do to make this a little more practical. So enable people to make decisions, give them permission, give them attention. Work to step out of people's way. Let them learn and have a chance to show they're driving creativity in finding solutions. If you're leading people, quiet your inner voice, the one that might judge or step in and give direction.

46:03Master and control your ego. We've talked about that in the past. You do not have all the best answers and people want to help make the world better. Try new things, ask bigger questions instead of judging. Get out of evaluating all the time and judging. Be the roundabout. People are not cars nor software. Great book. Okay, let's go to the after show. Been quiet on the review and hearing from people in the past couple of weeks. But if you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love you to go out and review it and perhaps give it a rating, as many stars as you're willing to give us, I guess, would be nice because it does help other people find it.

46:39Upcoming guests, we've talked about Scott. Scott Cederberg is next week. Then in two weeks, we have the year-end show. And then to kick off the new year, very exciting to let you guys know that Academy Award-winning filmmaker Errol Morris will be here to talk about a pretty cool movie that's coming. We'll have more news on that as we get closer to that date. If you want to get a kickstart on reading some books for next year, for the guests that are coming up, you might want to check out Morgan Housel's new book, Same As Ever. Morgan's coming up in January. And also Scott Rick's new book called Tightwads and Spendthrifts.

47:14So I'm going to dive into that over Christmas. I've already read Morgan's book, which is excellent, but Scott's book is also coming up. And also in the new year, For those that follow the debate on X or Twitter, we have the retirement income. I think some would say the dream team coming here inspired by a little dust up between Dave Ramsey and I guess who he calls the goobers in the basement. We're having three incredible goobers here. Dave Blanchett, Wade Pfau, and Michael Finke are joining us, which should be very interesting, Ben. I don't even know what to do to prepare for that conversation.

47:46A lot, I guess, is probably the answer. Any one of them on their own is no joke. The three of them, That's a pretty good lineup. It's the dream team, like you said. They're good guys. It'll be a good conversation. Anything to touch on in the community? It's been pretty active lately with some really good conversations on housing and also on Scott Cederberg's research because I posted the paper in there a while ago and then we had our episode on this a couple of weeks ago on that paper basically. And so some really good deep conversations going on in there, which Scott has participated in. Lots of good questions, lots of good answers.

48:21I anticipate more of that when Scott's episode comes out next week. Love it. 24 and 24, the Reading Challenge will continue next year. So Angelica and the team have been working on the badges and the rewards for that, which will be fun. We're also going to be looking for new merchandise in the store to kick off next year. And make sure everyone looks out for Ben and the Looney Doctor, Dr. Mark Soth's new podcast, Money Scope. I guess you can find that wherever you find your podcast currently, Ben? Yeah, it's dropping tomorrow and it'll be on podcast platforms. We're putting it up on Libsyn, which is a syndication platform.

48:58So it'll go out to all the podcast platforms. It'll be on YouTube. We'll put a link to the YouTube channel in the notes and description for this episode. So you'll be able to go and check out the YouTube channel and subscribe there. And then the website is moneyscope.ca. And as you heard Mark and I talk about, we've put a lot of effort into making the web pages. really easy to use resource to dig through because it's a massive amount of information that we're discussing in the podcast episodes. We really tried to make it easy to navigate through the transcripts so you can find if you're looking for a specific thing that you can go and find that we wanted to make it easy to access different pieces of information as opposed to having to listen to a full episode to learn one specific thing.

49:42Awesome. Anything else going on? The Money Scope podcast, that combined with, I revived my YouTube channel. That's been going on. People may have noticed that started making videos again. I see you repackaged your dollar cost averaging thread into a video, getting lots of traction this week. We talked about that paper on Roush Reminder years ago, probably when we did it, which was 2019. I did a thread on it on Twitter more recently and people loved the thread. So I had been meaning for a while to make it into a video, which I did. And people seem to be enjoying that, but I've done a bunch of new videos in the last few weeks.

50:17So that's been going on. But between that MoneyScope, Rational Reminder, and my other jobs at PWL, it's been pretty busy. The other book I forgot to mention that I just finished, and I suspect you finished as well, is The Fund, Rob Copeland's book about Ray Dalio and Bridgewater. That was crazy. So Rob's coming on the podcast in the new year. Wow, what a book, what a story. I'm biased. I've always felt like there was just something not quite right with Dalio. A lot of people looked at him as an oracle and a genius, and maybe he is in some ways. It never quite felt right. There are a couple of academic papers who have taken jabs at him.

50:58One paper on gold takes a jab at some of his comments that he's made on gold in the past and basically say why he logically can't be correct. Then Neil Ferguson in one of his books that I read also takes some very critical jabs at Dalio. So between my own spidey sense and the things that I'd read, I always wondered, but this book really deconstructs the whole phenomenon. That's putting it mildly. Neil Ferguson goes to visit Bridgewater's, that story's in there, and that did not go well, not to steal a thunder from the book. That made me realize why that made it into Neil's book. Why isn't Neil talking about stuff Ray Dalio said.

51:36Now it makes sense. It's an incredible book. It's an incredible story. Just the story of it, it almost seems like fiction. Some of the stuff is so outrageous. I listened to it as an audiobook. It was a very enjoyable, every free moment I had, I was putting my headphones on and listening to it. I have a lot of books backed up just to get ready for these interviews. We have Justin Breen's coming up in the new year. So there's his book. There's Jim Benson coming up in time management. He's another book. We have a lot going on. So it's going to be high energy, lots of great content to kick into the new year.

52:09Not only this year ended on a demo, we've been on a real guest to finish off 23. So it just keeps on rolling. Yes, it does. Thanks, everybody, for listening. We appreciate your support. Have a great week.