Episode 352 – Jessica Moorhouse: Everything But Money

21:28How is guilt different from shame? I think a lot of people use guilt and shame interchangeably and also jealousy and envy. They're different things. Again, they're all natural feelings, so they're not bad. However, they can be bad or make you behave maybe not the best way. Shame is when you feel like something is fundamentally flawed with you. Like I'm a bad person. Guilt is really about an act or a behavior. So it's a little bit easier to understand and change. So I did a bad thing. That's why shame is so powerful and can be very damaging. Because when you think that I'm just a bad person, or I'm bad with money, you're making a statement that that is who I am.

22:12And a lot of people have this idea that people can't change. Whereas with guilt, you're like, I did a bad thing. I don't want to do that again because I felt really bad about it. And so guilt is really important because it prevents us from doing things that we shouldn't be doing. And it's a lot easier to rectify and to ask for forgiveness or just not do it again. What's the difference between rational and irrational money guilt? Rational guilt, it's kind of like I mentioned, And it's a good thing. It will prevent us from doing something that we really shouldn't be doing, such as it could be like any kind of money mistake.

22:43You're like, oh, shouldn't have done that. Such as buying a hot stock you saw from some TikToker and you buy it and then you lose money. You're like, oh, I feel guilty about that. I really shouldn't have gambled with some of that money. I'm not going to do that again. That's a really good, important feeling to have. Remember that for the future. Irrational guilt is when you start taking over responsibility for something that you did that may not actually be your fault or you shouldn't feel that bad about it. It's not that big of a deal. I see that a lot with clients who maybe they grew up in a household where they did have to take over responsibility for a lot of different things.

23:16And so everyone's problem is their problem or their fault. And that could be, I mean, anything. It could be like, say you bought a stock that you knew you probably shouldn't because you didn't do any research and you're just kind of leaning into the excitement online. You bought it, you lost some money. You should feel bad about that. Don't do it again. But if you're like, you can't let it go, it just spirals. It's really hard to get out of that dark place. That's not where we want to be because that's not going to help you. How do you see fear affecting the way that people approach their money?

23:47A lot of people approach their money with fear. I feel like especially right now, on certain times, once again, we're always in uncertain times and fear is so present with people. They are terrified that the worst thing is going to happen when it usually doesn't. Something bad could happen, but usually not like the worst, worst case scenario. Fear, similar to shame, can prevent you from doing anything different than you're currently doing, even if what you're doing right now is not working. And so that could be educating yourself, getting more information, taking risks that are calculated. And you know, you know what, there's a very small downside.

24:24For example, I see a lot of people afraid to adjust their asset allocation, their portfolios to something more risky when they're like 25. And they're like in a 60 40 portfolio, like, what are you doing? You're not a retiree. What's going on here? and they're just terrified of losing their money, likely because they had either a life experience that really scared them or they saw someone close to them have that experience or like, well, I don't wanna be them. I'm gonna play it safe. Fear has a really big presence in people's lives, but it can be dangerous. Again, fear is an important feeling. It helps keep us alive, lots of different life experiences.

25:00But when it comes to our money, you need to have some fear because the people who are super fearless are the ones that take such big risks. and usually there's always a downside to that. And I see that with a lot of young investors, especially like they're fearless and it's because they've never experienced a repercussion, a negative outcome. Whereas if you have experienced a negative outcome, you're like, oh, okay, lesson learned. We can take risk, but we need to understand how much can we actually put into this potential investment or could we survive if it did like lose all its money? We just need to be more rational and aware of what we're doing.

25:35You mentioned a minute ago that there's a difference between jealousy and envy. So you want to talk a little bit about the difference and then how these affect our relationship with money? Honestly, people just use the word jealousy. No one uses envy, maybe because it sounds like an old word. I don't know. So jealousy is when there's three parties. There is like you, then there's someone else, and there's someone else getting in the way. He's maybe going to steal your boyfriend or something. So there's a third party who's making you jealous in that situation. There's always three parties. Envy is just you envying or coveting someone else's life, their possessions, whatever.

26:10So it's just two parties. And that's usually more common than the jealousy situation. So most of us are online or just walking down the street or out and about at a restaurant and we are looking at what other people have. And it's a very natural to feel envious. Again, envy is a very important feeling because it can be motivating to be like, hey, I want to actually upgrade my life. I want to do better because I see what this person has. So how can I maybe integrate some of the things that they're doing so I can improve my life? But where envy is dangerous is when you just feel bad because you don't have what they have.

26:44And then you start blaming yourself for, oh, I should have done this. I should have done this. Or you want to take that person down. We see that a lot in the comments online, where people are just super mean anonymously to people they don't know because they're envious instead of rethinking, what should I do to improve my life? Instead of be like, no, that person did this and that. They don't deserve that. They're a con artist. And you're like, we don't know any of these things. Yeah. Dan is a very wise. He's mostly off of social media now. Oh, wonder what that life is. I would love that life.

27:15I don't even know what you guys are talking about. Yeah. I would love to be offline. Unfortunately, I'm only online because of my business, but I get to a point where I can retire. You'll never see me again. why are uh early money memories important for people to connect with like i kind of mentioned usually it's where our origin story with money starts that is where the relationship really starts and a lot of that experience like the one i describe in the book i was four years old and i remembered it i'm almost 40 and i'm like wow that certainly had an impact on me that i of course told my mom she's like i don't remember any of that happening like well i sure do and so i think a lot of us during the book tour i've been on i've been talking about the first money memories.

27:55A lot of people are coming up to me and sharing their first money memories. And it's incredible. They knew exactly what it was. Most people know exactly their first interaction with money. And sometimes it's a positive interaction, which, hey, that'll probably set you up on a really good relationship with money. But a lot of the people that come to me or read my book is because they don't have a good relationship with money and they want to figure out how can I fix that. With that, I always like to ask my hosts if they remember what their first money memory is. Do either of you have an idea? If not, that's okay.

28:24We can move on. I can't remember what I had for breakfast, to be honest with you. You can't remember what happened to you at four years old? I think I had my parents maybe make a chart for tasks that I had to complete, and I had to fill in these things on the chart to get a bike. Oh, wow. That was definitely one of them. And then another one was building a Lego vehicle with a magnet on it in the hopes of picking up change on the ground outside. Didn't work. I love that. Yeah. Well, those sound like pretty positive experiences with money. Do you feel like you've had a pretty healthy relationship with money over your lifetime?

28:59Yeah, I would say I have. Yeah. Same with you, Dan. Maybe this is why you're in the line of work you are. You're like, no, actually, it's all been pretty good. And now I just want to continue helping other people have good relationships with money. Yeah, I think that's it. I mean, I was very fortunate to grow up in a situation where I didn't have my needs unmet. We weren't wealthy, but I don't ever remember it being associated with sort of stress and anxiety. If my family experienced that, they did a pretty good job of shielding us from it. And I do remember like very early on, I think like a lot of kids of my generation got jobs when we were teenagers and just learned to equate work with money and money with buying things that you wanted, saving up for things that you wanted.

29:43I think I've been able to take that kind of into this career as well. It's not something that stresses me out a lot. So hopefully I can impart a little bit of that calm to my clients. Yeah, you've always had that's been part of your brand, Dan, is this nice calm, like everything's going to be fine, which is why I think a lot of people are attracted to you. And your advice is like, oh, Dan knows what's going on. Everything's gonna be fine. He says so anyway. Well, thanks. Yeah, it wasn't conscious. I mean, it's just sort of a reflection of how I think about these things. But it's interesting to think about that.

30:14I haven't thought about my early money memories much. My parents were both school teachers when I was growing up. We lived on the campus of a boarding school. My dad ran one of the boarding houses. So I went to that school and my parents were school teachers. We weren't super wealthy by any means, but the tuition to attend that school was about$40 ,000 a year. I think it's more now. And so the people that I was surrounded by were quite wealthy. That made for a pretty interesting dynamic growing up around a lot of money. I wonder, did that influence you being like, I want to learn how to get money because I'm surrounded by it.

30:42That definitely had an impact. I'm sure. I didn't come into this career for any particular reason. I just kind of ended up here. So I don't know. You just ended up here. Okay. A story for another day. Maybe. I don't know. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I'm not your therapist. We don't have to go deep. We don't have to. Can you take us through the first money memories exercise or a brief version of it? Gosh. Yeah. I actually have my book here because I'm like, you know what, what was that exercise I wrote two years ago? Let's see what's going on here. The first component of this exercise is really, and Dan, this would be helpful for you to help you elicit a memory, just any memory, including what you had for dinner last night.

31:20And so there's a couple really like get grounded, start just doing some breathing exercises just so you can get back into the present moment because our minds are always here, there and everywhere. And so really just practicing with your breath to elicit a memory. And then once you've been able to do that and you're in that kind of mindset, then you can start going a little bit further back or way further back, depending on how old your first money memory is, and really thinking, okay, what is that memory? And honestly, usually there's something that kind of pops up. And then asking yourself for some more details about that memory.

31:52So where were you? Who were you with? How old were you? How did you feel in that moment? And then when you have some of those details and you can kind of visualize it and see it, then ask yourself, what is your current interpretation of that memory? And the tricky thing with memories is, again, like I told my mom, she read, she's like, what? I don't remember any of that happening. It's my memory. It was my interpretation of it back then. And it's my interpretation of it now. Doesn't mean it's necessarily completely accurate. Again, I was a child, but there's these feelings that are ingrained in me that are still there from that moment.

32:26So don't judge the memory or be critical about it. It's really just about noting everything down so we can be like, oh, maybe this has some information that will provide me further information about why I feel a certain way about money today. So that's really all it is. That's really interesting to think about. Can you also briefly talk about the feeling about money today exercise? So this is now taking a view of that feeling from the first money memory or just any kind feeling again, no judgment on what you're feeling, your feelings are your feelings about how they may come up when you are dealing with money in any kind of capacity.

33:04And it could be opening your wallet at the grocery store and getting your credit card out or getting cash. How do you feel on payday excited or like, Oh, gosh, another month, how am I going to make it stretch feel when it's time to pay some of your bills, and you actually have to do that action of paying your bill? Do you feel all right, I'm excited, we're paying that bill? Or do you feel like, Oh, my gosh, it's going to drain my bank account? How do you feel when you buy a lottery ticket? Are you buying a dream? Or is this just like a fun activity? Or do you have a lot staked on that? How do you feel when you're buying a gift for someone?

33:35Do you feel obligated? Or do you feel happy to do it? How do you feel about any kind of action to do with money? And I think none of us have probably asked ourselves any of those questions. How do you feel when you're interacting with money in this way or that way? And are the feelings overall positive or negative? It could be a mixture, especially if we've never really thought about this before, but it's just a good way to be like, where are we at with our money right now? And that if you go through the exercise and kind of write these thoughts down, it will reveal a lot about some things that are like subconscious that you've never actually thought about openly and clearly before.

34:11It's so interesting to talk about this feeling about money today, because I would say that one of the things I've learned working with clients over the years is people feel very differently about spending money. And it's not that closely related to how much money they have. So there are people who find the idea of spending money so stressful that even if they spend it on something that you would think they would genuinely enjoy, they resist it. And there are other people who have no qualms whatsoever about spending money. Of course, as long as they have enough, that's not an issue. The problem is when you have to mismatch between people who love spending money so much that they don't have any left.

34:52But one of the things I know I've always tried to talk to, especially retired clients, when they start drawing down and spending their savings, it's like, you need to understand right now what kind of spending makes you happy and what kind of spending leaves you feeling regret after. Some people are very good at articulating that and other people never even really thought about it. And I said, like, believe me, you know, like, I'll give you a good example that comes up a lot. Working with a client who has plenty of money and they like to travel. And I might say to them, the budget is there. Like instead of flying a coach, you may want to upgrade to business class for your next trip.

35:33Some people will just think of that. There's no way I'm ever going to do that. It's a huge waste of money. I'm not the type of person who flies business class. I don't know what makes them feel like that. I mean, it might just feel like I want to take that money and spend it on something else, which is fine. But it's more like, no, I won't spend it at all. And I'm not going to take it out of my portfolio in order to spend a little bit more on the trip. That's a person who is at least self-aware enough to say, I don't get any enjoyment out of that. Yeah, I don't value a first class or business class seat.

36:07I value other things. I like that you mentioned like even the thought of, but I'm not the type of person I completely get like, not only do I not value that kind of travel, I'd prefer to go, oh, but then if I do coach instead of business class, I can go on two flights instead of one. But also, I don't think I'd feel comfortable personally being with all these other people who spend money in a very different way, or maybe they're in a different income bracket. And there's also that level of personal comfort. Like, I don't think I feel comfortable being with these types of people because I don't think I'm part of them.

36:37So what if they judge me or whatever the case? So many feelings. Yeah, it's very much tied up with your identity, right? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Kind of related to that, how does someone understanding their own money story help them make better financial decisions? I mean, the only thing that will help you make better financial decisions is understanding where you're coming from and what your relationship with money is. And the narrative you've been telling yourself about you and money up until this point. And again, the reason I wrote this book is most of us have never thought about it in depth like that before.

37:13And until you really do, then you can start really connecting some dots between your feelings, your behaviors, your dreams that maybe you're not able to achieve and you don't know why. If you're able to understand, well, this is why, here's the full picture. Here's what happened A, B, C, D. Then you can kind of take a step back to see where things maybe went wrong or what route you took to get to where you were instead of, oh, there's such an obvious route I should have taken that I didn't because I was very much in it. If you kind of take a step back and really take a look at everything that's happened and transpired over the past several years or decades, it will make it a lot easier.

37:53Just like when I work with a client and they don't understand why there's never any money left over to save. And then we take a look at their spending. I'm like, well, the data is there. It's showing us a very clear story of where you were emotionally, behaviorally, and you don't even remember some of the expenses because likely you maybe had a bad day at work. And so you went to this store and got something and it's in your closet. You've never even worn it and you totally forgot you bought it. It's like that will, the evidence is there. And so we need to do the same thing just for the big things and even some of the things that have happened with us and our money to get us to where we are.

38:28So then we can, okay, well, we don't want to do that again, or we're going to keep that, that really work. We want to fit all the pieces. What do we need to add in so we can move forward with some different action steps? And, you know, I don't just tell people do this. This is something I do every single day now to not repeat the past, to add some new things and keep some of that. There's always going to be some stuff that is working for you and remember and hold onto those as your anchor. These are working. They've served me well. Let's keep doing it. And we just want to try a different recipe because the old recipe is just not working anymore.

38:59What are some of the common money lessons that people should probably unlearn? Oh, gosh. I mean, there's a whole chapter on lessons we learned. And most of the lessons we learned about money are usually indirect. Most of us were never sat down. I certainly wasn't to be like, this is what you should do with your money from your parents growing up. It's usually what we observed or things we heard when our parents didn't know what we were listening, but they were talking about the finances. A lot of that stuff, those were our parents' issues with money, but we adopt them and now there are problems, but they're not our problems.

39:32We're just carrying someone else's problems and they may have already worked through it. It's not even, they're like, oh, I don't even do that anymore. I'm like, well, I still do. There's a big chapter on generational trauma and really it was just to take a look at where are you at with your money and this is your parents' experience that, your grandparents. And for me, a big thing, and really on my mom's side of the family, there's always been extreme frugality and a lot of fear and anxiety around money, not having enough. And when I started looking at the family tree, and then I did an interview with my grandpa years ago for the podcast that I then was luckily able to use for the book that really helped me do some research about my family history, long line of poverty.

40:12And that really stays with you and gets transferred to the next generation, next generation, where even though I, in my generation, in my family, we are the most well-off compared to anyone down my family line. But I still carry some of the lessons I learned from my grandpa and my mom about how to be smart with money. And a lot of it was be a really good saver, live below your means. Those are really great things. But they were also very resistant to investing in things that were unsafe and taking any kind of risks. So like real estate investing? Absolutely not. But buy your home, pay it off as soon as possible.

40:49Work at a startup, take a chance on this potential opportunity that can accelerate your career. Absolutely not. Find a job and stay there for 40 years. And so those are things that worked for them because they helped them survive. But I've had to unlearn a lot of things that they were just trying to help me stay safe. They were actually the opposite. They didn't make me more safe. If I stayed with the first job I got out of university, I'd be out of a job because I went bankrupt. So there's a lot of things I had to unlearn that were not helpful, such as playing it too safe. That's actually sometimes the most dangerous thing that you can do.

41:22You need to be adaptable and try new things and take risks. Yeah, those are good lessons to unlearn. What are some of the most harmful, in the book you use the word toxic, money behaviors that you see? Oh gosh, I'd say having a really poor view of wealth. And this might be something that I want to explore further, maybe in a future book, but I talked to so many people that had a very negative. They either thought that they could never achieve wealth because it was never achieved in any environment in their family. No generation had ever had wealth. So how could I possibly get that? That's also something that I have been working through as well.

41:57But also the kind of envy we have for people who do have more. And I get it. There is such a big divide right now, like never before, where the rich have never been richer and there's so much poverty. And there was a very small middle class. A lot of people hate the idea of wealth and people who have riches. And sometimes in their mind, the only way that they'd ever be able to achieve that is to do something incredibly risky to get rich overnight. So it's just like pick that perfect stock or the crypto thing or whatever, instead of the boring slow path to wealth. And so that's a really toxic behavior of basically hating people who have money when you want it at the same time.

42:37and your biggest dream is to have wealth. That's very conflicting. How are you going to be able to achieve that goal? If you do achieve that goal, what the end result is you hating yourself because now you're in that class of people that you hate. That's not healthy. Yeah, the comment about the lottery seeking behavior is really interesting. I did a video a while ago on why index funds make sense, like nothing revolutionary, pretty. Which I love those videos because I'm an index investor. I'm like, yes, Ben, yes. And a bunch of comments were people saying that like, yeah, that's great, but I don't have enough money to invest in index funds.

43:07So I need to go invest in - Or I don't have time to wait. Yeah, sure. That's another one. And so I'm going to go invest in meme coins instead. Oh, does that just break your heart when you hear that? It does. It does. Like, please don't. No. Oh my gosh. Oh yeah. It's scary out there. Jessica, you talk a lot in the book about trauma and the role that that can play in our relationship to money. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? that was my favorite part of researching the book and writing the book because i knew not too many books out there really talk about the interconnection between money and trauma and most people are like i don't see a connection at all the thing is trauma and it can have nothing to do with money or trauma it could be like you survived a natural disaster and that has impacted you for the rest of your life that will impact all areas of your life when it comes to like your romantic relationships your friendships, your career, and your money.

44:01Because whenever you feel triggered from that trauma, which can happen so easily based off of like a word, a smell, seeing someone's face, whatever the case, it will impact how you feel and your autonomic nervous system and could potentially push you into fight or flight or freeze and fawn, which are the danger zones when it comes to our money. We never want to be in any of those spaces with our money because we're going to do something that we're going to regret later, such as sell off all of our investments because we think the world is ending or buy a bunch of meme coins because we think this is the only way that we'll be able to build wealth and save our retirement.

44:40And it's like, no, don't do that. Until you really understand yourself, your trauma that could be experienced or witnessed or inherited through your ancestors, which is really interesting. A lot of us have inherited trauma that we're carrying and we didn't even know we had it. Until you really break that down and understand it, you may not understand some of your behaviors with money, your actions. So a lot of the people very common than when I work with, they have a shopping problem, they spend too much, they don't know why. It's not that they're spending, oh, I just spent so much money on groceries.

45:10No, it's usually something that's material that's not an essential. And it's something to get a dopamine hit. They want that dopamine hit because something happened at work or in their life that they felt bad. And they were in that fight or flight freeze upon and they needed something to get out back into that place of safety and connection, buying something was a really easy way to temporarily alleviate that kind of pain. But then they have to keep doing it to get that dopamine. And they're never really figuring out what is the root cause of this pain. And so unless you understand the root cause, you're going to keep that behavior and get into further debt or drain your savings and never make any progress.

45:51So it's really just better understanding why are you doing the things you're doing? It's probably not just because you're bad with money. I don't believe anyone's bad with money. I don't like that saying at all. It's probably because something else is making you feel a certain way and you did a certain action to feel better. I don't want this question to come across as judgmental, but you do comment on it briefly in the book. What do you think about trauma just being an excuse for bad behavior? I say I understand where people can come from, and label it as like, well, that's just an excuse. It's not an excuse.

46:24It's an explanation. An excuse means, well, that's just how I am and I'm not going to change. I've got trauma. This is, I'm an overspender. It is what it is. Yeah, that's not good. We don't want to be in that space, but we do want an explanation for, well, why am I doing this? Because then once you have that explanation and that added information, then it's very clear on, oh, this is what I need to do differently in order to get a different outcome. Excuse is never what we want. We want an explanation. We need that extra information so we can move forward. But yeah, I feel like that's always a cop-out.

46:57We'd be like, oh, that's an excuse. You're like, oh, you just, you have to read my book. If anyone feels like, oh no, I don't have trauma and that's an excuse, I guarantee it's because you have not really delved into your own situation and really did some introspection and honestly probably shown yourself some empathy. Maybe you're just like too closed up because of things that have happened to you. you're like, I can't even go there. And so my shield, my protective mode is to just blame other people. We've all probably been in that situation once or twice. And I definitely was at a certain point in my life.

47:27And it's just not a healthy place to be in. We need to, again, go back to that point of we need to show people empathy. And we may not fully understand why people are the way they are. Why don't they just do this? Solution is so simple. And sometimes I feel like that with people, but you're not in their shoes. You don't feel how they feel. You don't have the same lived experience. So you'll never fully know, but you have to allow them the space to get to know their situation so they can improve. You mentioned really enjoying the trauma research for the book. How did learning more about trauma change the way that you approach your counseling practice?

48:01I know that sounds weird that I loved the part on trauma, but it was so fascinating because even though I'd personally been doing therapy for years, we never talked about trauma or childhood or anything like that. It wasn't until I started doing research for the book, did a bunch of sessions with a couple of different therapists who were a trauma trained in a couple different areas of therapy that I started understanding more about myself that I never uncovered during some other therapy sessions. And what I realized is that most of us have some form of trauma. We've been touched by trauma in some way.

48:35And because of that, we will act in certain ways. For me, again, it was like, oh, that's why I feel like that when I see this or hear this, or I'm in this location or something like that. And so for me, it really helped me better understand me and my relationship with money. And so having this information now, when I approach working with a client, honestly, now I feel like I see trauma everywhere. so I'm watching a reality show or talking to someone like trauma because often that's kind of where things start or why someone's doing a certain thing that you're like that doesn't make sense. Oh, maybe it's a trauma response.

49:14For me now, I'm more aware and I can pick up on some cues and when we're in that situation then I'm in a better position to kind of say, hey, have you thought about therapy? Because this might be the missing element. You know, again, a lot of people seek out the help from a financial professional because they think it's a money issue That's their only issue. But likely, again, if you're a trauma-informed facilitator, then you can pick up on those cues and be like, you know what, there is a money issue, but I think there's some other issues that are impacting your money. It might be a great thing to also see a mental health professional to kind of deal with some of those things.

49:47And that'll kind of free you up to be more receptive to some of this boring, traditional financial advice that does work, like know where your income is and your spending and have a plan and check your net worth and invest strategically. and all this stuff. Because at the end of the day, you guys know this, you've been in the field for so long. Money is pretty simple and straightforward. So why are people struggling with it? Why are so many Canadians having the hardest time in the world with money? It's because the whole point of my book, there's other things going on in the way. It's not just money.

50:19It's everything but money. It's everything and money. Ooh, everything and money. I like that too, yes. It's interesting because I think any advisor pays attention and listens to their clients knows that there is very often some personal background that is affecting the way they make decisions. But at what point does it become inappropriate to ask personal questions when you're in an advisor-client relationship? I mean, somewhere there's a line between being sensitive and overstepping the bounds of the relationship. That's a line I've had to walk a number of times. I don't know how you feel about where is that line?

50:58When you are practicing active listening and picking up on those cues, the physical and also just the words they're using and just like their tone or, oh, they're kind of short with that answer. Maybe they're uncomfortable at this point. So really being able to listen in those different ways to see where they're at. And usually there's a natural point like, OK, I think we're at the limit. And also just, yeah, sorry, if this is too much, please let me know. And giving them that opening to be like, yeah, that's a little bit personal. So I don't want to go down there. and also recognizing what point have you kind of exceeded your limit as that either financial counselor or that advisor.

51:35And you're like, okay, I'm not a therapist. And I never try to be one. I always just try to gather information to find out more about what direction are we going into or the problems that they presented at the beginning of our session, actually the problems, do they need someone beyond me to help them with some of their other issues? So really it's, yeah, Again, it always goes back to listening. I don't even ask a lot of personal questions. I usually start with one question and just kind of let them talk, kind of like a good interview. You just shut up and just listen. They just keep going and going.

52:06Like for all the interviews I did for my book, these real people from my audience and I selected a bunch of them. I asked two, three questions and we talked for an hour. They just kept on talking or I'd be like, tell me more. Let's unpack that or something like that. and then they reveal how much they're comfortable in revealing. Yeah, I think in that high trust kind of setting where they're talking to you and they're from your audience, or if Dan or I are talking to a client in that type of high trust setting, people will just talk. You don't have to ask many questions. And usually they never had that opportunity to talk because again, a lot of financial professionals do a lot of talking and not enough listening.

52:45And so when you can build a relationship with a client where you have that trust, and a lot of that is based off of you just listening, they're so thankful because they're like, oh, finally, I have a space and someone's listening to me. This is great. What do you coach people to focus on first, mental health or building a solid financial foundation? It depends on the client. If it's really clear at the forefront, oh, there are some mental health issues that are more important, that's where we kind of want to start. On the other side, I know right about this in my book, I understand that seeing a therapist or a counselor or what have you costs money.

53:23Most of us don't have insurance that covers that. Some do and then I take full advantage, but a lot of us don't. And so we do unfortunately have to do the money components so we can find that cash flow to afford those therapy sessions. And I've done that with a number of people as well, because therapy session could be between 150, 250 bucks a pop for an hour. So some people have to make these decisions like, well, this is actually really important. so we have to take a look at their spending and their income and I always like to say hit pause on things instead of cancel things or cross things out or cut things because no one likes those terms and I get it let's just hit pause and we can resume it later once maybe we don't need to do as many therapy sessions anymore so unfortunately we do have to kind of look at the numbers but I think they're really motivated to maybe stick with that budget because they know what they're getting by doing that we're gonna help you in so many big ways by freeing up this cash flow so you can do these sessions.

54:15And then when you do those sessions, you're going to do a lot of work. It's going to be a lot easier going back to the numbers because you're like, oh, okay, I don't have all these hangups or I better understand why I had these hangups and why I was acting in a certain way with money. Now it's a lot more clear and I don't even want to do those things anymore. I guess we're looking at intergenerational experiences. Like if your family grew up either poor or wealthy, your experience is a little bit different. How does kind of growing up in those two different environments affect your own relationship with money?

54:46The environment that you grew up in and how money was presented will have the biggest impact on you as an adult. And I kind of break it into two categories in the book in that most people will either repeat or rebel against their upbringing. A lot of people repeat. That's kind of the prominent behavior I would see is they're just continuing, sometimes trying to finish what their parents started. And sometimes that really does not work because maybe what their parents were doing, it didn't work because it just wasn't a good strategy. It wasn't a good path anyway. And that's why they're in their situation.

55:17And then some people may have felt really restricted or even if you came from wealth, maybe you really hated some of the things that encompassed it. And so you want to rebel and give away all your possessions and just live on the road and be a nomad because you want to reject it because you did not like it. When I was interviewing a bunch of people for the book, it was interesting to pick up on, oh, who's repeating and who's rebelling. And there's, one story sharing the book about this woman, Anya, who had a very similar background to this other woman in the book that came from immigrant families and a lot of poverty, a lot of restriction.

55:53One of them continued what her parents did and lived extremely frugally to a fault. Anya rebelled against that. And so she's like, I don't want to be restricted. I felt like I had no freedom. I want to spend freely. And then unfortunately, because of that, she realized there's some repercussions, you're going to overspend. Now I'm in credit card debt. Maybe it's not about going to an extreme. It's about finding that balance. And so what I talk about in the book is, even though that's our natural inclination to either repeat or rebel, we never really want to go to an extreme. But we think that that's what we have to do.

56:27We have to do exactly what our parents did, because I think they knew best. Or I don't think they did know best. And I want to do the exact opposite. But really, typically, the best course of action is to create your own path and find some balance. Again, keep the things that you think are good and useful, reject the things that are not working, did not work for your parents, that you can see clearly now, and move forward, which is very difficult to do. I was very much a repeater, because my mom is the money manager in her family. She was very good at it. But also, there's other things that she didn't because lack of information or, you know, there was that fear around taking risks with her career or investing.

57:06I had to find a middle ground for myself in order to help me and my husband reach our goals, which was, you know, even me just moving from growing up in Vancouver to Toronto, that was like a really big deal. My parents were like, are you crazy? Like, that's a big city. Oh, my gosh. And even people at work, I used to work in a newspaper. All the sales reps are like, are you kidding me? Going to the big smoke, as they called it. And they're like, you're going to be even on. Because Vancouver is such a small city. I know, right? And I was just like being on the West Coast. Toronto, Ontario just seems so crazy far away.

57:36It's so different. But I'm like, I think this is the right course of action. I could already see what my life is going to be if I stay in my hometown and I can see the limitations in terms of my career and all these things. I think I have to do something and we're kind of rebel and move to a different city and try it out here. And we've been here 12 or 13 years. It's been very good for us. We've been done really well by making this move. But it was the hardest thing to do something different than my parents would not have done. So, so difficult. What are some of the best ways to spend money in ways that increase happiness?

58:11Oh, I'd say actually, that was probably my favorite chapter to write after the trauma. Then I'm like, oh, let's go into something about happiness. Really comes down to, and I refer to this chapter often because sometimes, especially when the news is so dark, I'm like, what actually is happiness again? How do I get my happy back? In the book, there is an acronym called PERMAPLUS. I'm not going to remember all of the acronyms at this moment because I always forget. But basically, it breaks down all of the things that give us long-term happiness. And most of them are free or very low cost. And we often, I think, don't put enough value on these things.

58:46We always think that more money will make us happy or the glitz and the glam. That's temporary. It's it'll make you happy for a minute, but not for a long time. Sometimes the happiest things that I've experienced are having tea with a friend, doing a puzzle, reading a good book that's free from the library, like all these things that are so simple. Gardening, like there's all these things that are so simple that we discount. But actually, they're the things scientifically that make us the most happy. And then also on the other part of it, you know, I think most of us know at this point, but I have a big section in that chapter about, guess what?

59:24The data shows experiences make us more happy than material goods. But for whatever reason, I mean, I know there's the reasons, we still think that the material goods, once I get that thing, it will make me happy. It will for a minute. And then you're like, onto the next thing, gotta buy something else, gotta buy something else. I try to encourage people to look inside themselves and say what will actually make you happy and also too I think we're very influenced very influenced online about what makes other people potentially happy we have no idea there's so many people that I see online I'm like that is so fake but they look so happy and then the more you see you're like well maybe they are happy maybe I'd be happy if I also had that thing but they're selling something someone's always selling something so you've got to be really aware of when you're being influenced and really kind of shut out the noise and be like, wait, what actually makes me happy?

1:00:18And I think often we haven't asked ourselves that really important question for a long time. Parma is a positive emotion, engagement, relationships, meaning accomplishment. The only plus I know is vitality, which is like eating well and sleeping well. Yeah. I think the plus is fitness, health, some other things I can't remember. I wrote this book, but it was a while ago. But again, like those are very simple things. It's like get enough sleep, move your body, be engaged in an activity where you lose yourself again, like a good book or gardening or something like that, having relationships. So one thing that I started doing that I never put enough importance or I always like, no, I have too much work to do or have this other thing that I think is more important to do is that social aspect that we're in such a disconnected world, even though we're so connected at the same time, we need to be around people.

1:01:08The more times, even if you're an introvert like me, you still get so much pleasure and energy and joy from being around people and just learning about other people's lives and just being in their company. And I think often, especially because of COVID, oh my gosh, we were so disconnected. We've kind of forgotten how important just being around people is. It really is. Yeah, something that I've done the last, well, I've been doing it for a while now. I've got a friend that I meet up with every Thursday at the moment. It's been Wednesdays in the past, but we meet up, we go to the gym together and we have dinner every week.

1:01:40That's nice. It's awesome. It's something you look forward to. You have a good time. Yeah. Yeah, my husband just started doing it actually with a friend who doesn't live too far away. And it seems like every Thursday they meet up kind of halfway and go for a walk. I'm like, that's so nice. That is awesome. And it brings them a lot of happiness. you can download and just talk about whatever. And for me, I'm part of two book clubs now. I don't know how that happened. Honestly, I rarely read the book. I don't have time to read all these books. And I started going to a gym that is really group workout classes.

1:02:10So we're all kind of doing the same thing. It brings me so much joy just and I've made a lot of friends going to this gym, as opposed to going to a regular gym where you're just doing your own isolated thing. And I never liked doing that. But I realized, oh, I'm really happy when I'm around people, especially since I work from home alone. So I need to be around people. How can people approach rewriting their own money stories? That's kind of the fun part is when you've done that deconstruction on your money story, the narrative you've been telling yourself up until now, the origin story, where it all started, how trauma and all these other elements have affected you and the lessons you've learned that you know you need to.

1:02:49Once you've unpacked all of that, then you've got the really exciting job of figuring out where do I want to go from here? I'm not super happy where I'm at right now. A lot of things I want to change. Where would I like to go? Who do I want to be? And hopefully, too, after you've done all of that unpacking, you'll realize the answer isn't, well, I want this amount of money and I want all of these things. You'll realize, oh, actually, I was running towards those things and they were just a bandaid for the things that I really needed to look into. And so you need to ask yourself, yeah, some questions like, who am I?

1:03:25Again, what do I like? What actually makes me happy? What are some of my goals that I do know, again, will provide not only important things like safety and connection and security and things like that, but also that will bring me that long-term joy and happiness. And so really getting back to your roots of what do I want? Because I feel like we did a lot of that introspection, you know, in university or in our 20s, who am I? And then you just start working and you've got responsibilities and life is hard throughout your late 20s and 30s and onwards. And we don't really take a moment to think, whoa, whoa, whoa, what am I doing?

1:04:04We're just on autopilot. And so taking that time to really discover what do I want? What do I really want? And then you You can start slowly connecting that to your actual financial situation. And you can kind of see what's lining up, what's not. Do I need to earn more money? Do I need to hit pause on some things? Do I need to restructure some things? What are some blind spots that I didn't even see and now they're so clear? What are some behaviors that I always lean into at certain parts of the year or certain times that I feel this? What are some kind of systems I can put in place to prevent me from doing that again again, because I never feel good after doing it.

1:04:44So really kind of restructuring everything. So when you start your new journey, you're going to be on a better path and you have a much better guide. Last question for you, Jessica, how do you define success in your own life? It's changed a lot since I wrote the book, let me tell you. I've realized, like I talk about this at the beginning of the book, because of my own trauma, unhealed emotional wounds at the time, I did not realize that a lot of what I was pursuing, and that was money, accolades, attention, those were just band-aids. I thought those would make me happy. If I get those, everything's going to be all right.

1:05:19And then you'd achieve a certain milestone and you're like, I don't really feel any much better. Okay, maybe that just wasn't big enough. And you just keep moving the goalpost and you're just never satisfied. And even for me, before we hit record, dad said, oh, how's the book going? I'm a Globe and Mail bestseller. That felt good for like an hour. And then it was done. And you're like, okay, now what? And so I can never put importance on things like that, because I know they dissipate so quickly. But the things that make me really happy, again, are those simple things. So I needed to restructure my goals and what I want to achieve and success and redefine success for myself, based off of those other things.

1:06:01And so for me now, what makes me feel really happy and successful is doing work that I feel is meaningful and actually impactful and helping people. And sometimes that means saying no to money because I want to stay true to my values and my ethics. It means sometimes taking the slow path instead of the quick path. I feel like my journey has been very slow in certain respects of my career where I see other people, oh, wow, they're so much further ahead. It doesn't matter, you know, tortoise and the hair. And also, it doesn't matter. This is my life. And it might be slower than someone else's. And that's the most important.

1:06:34It's just got to focus on me and making sure I make room for those things that make me happy. And so honestly, in the past, yeah, I would cancel on friends or say, Oh, I can't go out. I have too much work to do. Now I'm like, No, I will fit work around the engagements that are really meaningful to me, like going to the gym, going to book club, going to an event or seeing a friend I haven't seen in long time and doing something silly, going to a play or something like that. So really, I had to restructure my whole money story, my whole path to financial fulfillment is what kind of what I call it.

1:07:08You know, how can money help me feel more fulfilled, just me using it as a tool, and stop viewing money as a thing that that is the goal. Because whenever I put it in that place, and I think money will make me happy, it never does. It never does for long anyway. It's a great answer. All right. Thanks, Jessica. This has been a great conversation. We really appreciate you coming on the podcast. Thanks so much for having me. I'm a big fan of both of you. So this is a big treat to be on your show.