117. Epstein Files Declassified: Mossad, Israel and Ghislaine Maxwell (Ep 2)

15:20Gordon:He bore some resemblance that we wore him down.

15:23David:Yeah. So maybe you were right. So Maxwell was there. He was kind of bugging his own staff, using it to help him with business negotiations. I love this detail. He would then listen to the tapes alone in his penthouse apartment and he would listen to them obsessively and he was by this stage you know later in life a kind of massive physical presence but also quite odd one of the things we should we'll come back to he was a kind of bully very very bullying of his staff of his family very aggressive very unpredictable and this is you know vision of this guy just listening to surveillance tapes in a lonely way in his penthouse i think you know while supposedly being a billionaire.

16:04David:But supposedly it's important because all the time, particularly by the late 80s, he is looting the Daily Mirror's pension fund, all the money that belongs to the pensioners or the people who are going to get a pension from that newspaper. He was looting millions and millions and millions to kind of prop up his businesses, which were on the verge of collapse. And people were starting to find out.

16:25Gordon:That's why Alistair had to do the rest of his politics, right? Because he lost his pension.

16:28David:Because he lost his pension. Again, you could ask him that.

16:33Gordon:His daily mirror pension was gone. I'm going to get sued by Alistair. By Alistair, yeah.

16:42David:And he also makes that move to try and go to New York. He buys the New York Daily News. I hadn't realized this. He has a big party on his boat in Manhattan. And the boat, called the Lady Jelaine, named after his daughter. And the decor was described as 1970s playboy baroque, which is you know uh yeah here's a style not one i'm accustomed to it's not how the career house

17:07Gordon:is decorated i think that's fair to say yeah this but actually the video we're looking at now for those watching this is the only part of your house gordon that's not decorated in 70s playboy baroque yeah the books behind me yes the bathtub the bathtub with the golden you know bare bare Fairfeet. That's not in the frame right now.

17:27David:Although I love this detail when he has this big party on the Lady Jelaine when he's bought the New York Daily News is actually Donald Trump is invited but doesn't come to the party. It's kind of interesting party, but it gives you a sense that this is a guy who's moving in those circles. But soon after that, November 1991, he's on his yacht. He's on the Lady Jelaine off the Canary Islands early on the morning of November 5th. People are calling him. They can't reach him. The crew go into his room on the boat. They find his bed empty. They search the yacht. There's no sign. Later that day, search teams will find his body in the water, floating face up, his hands clenched together.

18:06David:Now, this will also start a kind of flood of conspiracy theories, frankly. You don't say, Gordon. You don't say.

18:16Gordon:Well, they all say this. And they center the conspiracy theories. Many of them center on, And, you know, again, surprise, surprise, the idea that he was murdered by Mossad after they had tried to blackmail him. And to be honest, I can't quite make sense of the theory.

18:32David:Yeah, no, no. It took me a while to understand it. Supposedly, the theory was he had been running a mosque. This is a theory, just to be absolutely clear, that the claim behind this conspiracy theory was that he'd been selling some kind of software for the Israelis, which secretly allowed access to kind of information. So it was a kind of Israeli intelligence operation. But then eventually his finances are on the verge of collapse because of, you know, the pension fund. everything's going to be exposed he's in deep trouble and so the theory goes that he threatens Mossad with publicly disclosing this operation unless they you know bail him out they don't and they kill him now that I want to just kind of put it out there that that is the theory but I don't think anyone seriously buys it I mean there are lots of you know reasons why that's not possible I mean the theory is that Mossad agents somehow get onto his yacht inject him with a poison and tip him overboard i mean ah it let's be honest it's not how you do it anyway if you were if you were mossad i think and even if there was any kind of substance the idea that they might have done it

19:41Gordon:i it just doesn't make sense he's also given i think he's i mean he's given a state funeral isn't he and and i mean he's he's buried on the on the mount of olives so i i don't know it doesn't It doesn't seem like you would do that if you had just murdered him. I don't know. I mean, it seems, I guess, most likely, Gordon, that he fell, right? Or that he, you know, realizing that he was sort of at the end and that his looting of the Daily Mirror's pension fund was going to come to light that he decided to take matters into his own hands.

20:18David:yeah those i think those are the more two plausible theories which which have you know it's never been resolved which one is you know he he killed himself because he knew the end was coming is you know business his reputation was collapsing and that he was kind of fragile i mean there is also this theory that he might have have fallen because you know he was massive overweight and supposedly he liked to pee off the back of the boat it was something he used to do he had the kind of weird things about peeing and toilet habits, which I don't need to get into.

20:48Gordon:Was it the opposite of Escobar?

20:49David:Escobar loved his clean golden toilets. I think Maxwell is less so from what I can tell. But, you know, and so one of the theories is he's peeing overboard in the middle of the night and he just kind of loses his balance as the boat's swaying and he falls. So who knows? But the reason why this is interesting is, I mean, one, there's lots of interesting kind of connections. I mean, one is the fact that a bit like Jeffrey Epstein, you've got a mysterious death, which as soon as you have a mysterious death and questions about suicide, it leads to kind of fuels the conspiracy theories. But I think also it's this link in through Ghislaine Maxwell, because Ghislaine was the child who was closest to her father.

21:32David:And yet it does seem to have been a pretty abusive relationship, which he was with pretty much everyone else. I mean, everyone, all his family members seem to have been in kind of fear and terror of him. And, you know, he really loved humiliating people and kind of sadistically crushing them. But she supposedly thought he'd been murdered. And it is around the time of his death in 1991 that she, you know, Oxford educator Jelaine is pitching up in New York and first meets Jeffrey Epstein and soon after begins to date him and starts to introduce people in her social circle. So there is this interesting connection through Robert Maxwell into his daughter, Jelaine, and then into Jeffrey Epstein, which people have used to make the claim that this is a Mossad operation running all the way through.

22:20David:Now, one website says, you know, that the idea is Robert Maxwell somehow groomed almost Jeffrey Epstein to take on his role. now the problem with that is there's no evidence for it so i mean there's lots of reasons it doesn't work i mean one is robert maxwell's relationship with mossad is not quite as it suggested in that and secondly there is no evidence about the kind of grooming and the

22:45Gordon:onward relationship it just doesn't feel right to me but we can we can say uh despite all of the sort of you know wild conspiracy theories around around his death and and things like that but Robert Maxwell did have a relationship with Mossad. It's an ad hoc, probably off and on relationship insofar as we can tell from the available evidence. But he was in contact with Mossad and was a sometime sort of contact and source of information for Israel's foreign intelligence service. But that feels like a fairly sober take on this story. Would you agree with that?

23:25David:Yeah, I would. So David, that is the kind of theory, I think, or one of the elements of the kind of conspiracy theories or the theories, if you want to put it in those terms, about Jeffrey Epstein and the intelligence world, is that it runs through Robert Maxwell, Jelaine Maxwell and Mossad into Jeffrey Epstein. So maybe there, should we take a break? And afterwards, we'll look at how far that stacks up and what else there might be to either suggest that Jeffrey Epstein did or didn't have some kind of relationship with the spy world. This episode is brought to you by our wonderful friends, Atio, the AICRM.

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25:50Gordon:Welcome to Tell Me Lies, the official podcast. What's the most unhinged thing of season three? Stephen, because he's so evil. I do think he is misunderstood you see everyone face consequences it's intoxicating the writers just know how to trick yeah there's always a twist in this show tell me lies the official podcast january 6th and stream the new season of tell me lies january 13th on hulu and hulu on disney plus

26:21Gordon:Well, welcome back. We've been looking in this episode at the very interesting connections, very interesting life and death of Robert Maxwell, father of Jalade Maxwell, and in particular, his connections to the Israeli Mossad. And I guess, Gordon, after looking at this, I mean, How does it stack up? What's your take on the connection? I mean, first off, I guess there's, what was Robert Maxwell's relationship with Mossad? And I guess there's the second one, which is really integral to a lot of the sort of Epstein as spy theories is somehow that Robert Maxwell groomed or brought up Epstein to also work with or for Mossad.

27:10David:Yeah. I mean, on the first one, I mean, Robert Maxwell doesn't look like a Mossad agent, but he looks like the kind of person who was a kind of contact, who's working in this kind of, you know, as he was with Britain, it looks like in the early Cold War, doing business deals, doing other things, and, you know, has contacts in the spy world, which is different from, if you like, being run as an operation as an agent in that way. And it certainly doesn't mean that his daughter was, and it certainly doesn't lead over to the fact that Jeffrey Epstein does. You know, there's a kind of quite a few hops you have to make to make that claim.

27:44David:and you could see why people might make it, but there's not evidence to support those moves, those kind of links in the chain. There isn't the evidence that, you know, Jelaine Maxwell was a kind of contact of Mossad. And I mean, actually, in a conversation with the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, transcripts of which were released recently, you know, Jelaine Maxwell is actually asked about this, about her and Epstein's alleged intelligence ties. And she's asked, you know, have you ever had contact with a Mossad agent? And she replies, well, not deliberately. Pardon me, the questioner asked and she repeats not deliberately which is kind of an obvious answer isn't it it's like not knowingly you know i mean i might have done without knowing it and then you know she's asked actually do you ever did you ever think that mr epstein was getting any money from any intelligence agency including massad and she said i don't believe so but i wouldn't know i mean i would be very surprised if he did i don't think so no so i think certainly not proven this kind of idea of the kind of grooming through massad robert maxwell jelaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein.

28:43David:I think there just isn't the evidence to support that. And it does feel, I don't know what you think, but Robert Maxwell was more of that kind of fluid contact broker, fixer figure who had ties into the intelligence world. And I guess that also feels a bit like Jeffrey Epstein, doesn't it? So there is a parallel there in a sense, isn't there?

29:01Gordon:Well, and Epstein does have contacts and links similar to Robert Maxwell, to Israeli officials and former officials. And one of the most well-documented ties links Epstein to Ehud Barak, who served as the prime minister of Israel from 1999 to 2001. Later, he was the defense minister, we should say, up front. Barak has acknowledged his relationship with Epstein and told the Wall Street Journal that over years of meeting with Epstein at his various mansions. He, quote, never participated in any party or any other inappropriate event with him and had never met him with girls or minors, not even with adult women in the context of any inappropriate behavior.

29:49Gordon:Barack has said he first met Epstein in 2003 at an event attended by American dignitaries that was set up through the late Israeli president and statesman, Shabon Perez.

30:01David:So again - Business partners, basically.

30:03Gordon:Yeah, business partners. And I think as we've seen for some of Ehud Barak's leaked emails, they were friends. And the two of them have this kind of longstanding personal and business relationship. They meet dozens of times between 2013 and 2017 in New York and elsewhere. And these leaked emails, Ehud Barak's emails, show the two men coordinating on business proposals, setting up meetings, talking strategy. Ehud Barak, he's a frequent guest at that residence. He receives millions in investment from Epstein-linked entities. Again, this does not have anything to do with Epstein's criminal behavior.

30:48Gordon:This is Epstein supporting and investing in companies that Ehud Barak was sort of involved with. Financial records show Epstein brokering meetings between Israeli security startups, things like that. So again, you can kind of see how this feels, maybe spy adjacent, intelligence business adjacent.

31:13David:Well, we are talking about a former official, we should say. Ehud Barak is a former official. So it's slightly different from direct ties with current officials, it's worth saying. But certainly it's people moving in the worlds of kind of business and security. That's what we're saying.

31:28Gordon:Yes, exactly. And there's some interesting, I guess, facets to the relationship between Barack and Epstein that have come out in the sort of tranche of email traffic that has been made public. And it's a very interesting mix of things, again, that are, I would say, fit much more under this category of Epstein being a kind of fixer as opposed to working formally for any intelligence service. So it looks like Epstein was actually involved in helping relocate planes that had been used to ship arms during Iran-Contra. And he would help to sort of facilitate the movement of those planes to Ohio, where they were then repurposed to be used as part of Les Wexner's retail supply chain.

32:18Gordon:So maybe they were shipping lingerie for Victoria's Secret or something like that. Bizarre. He was involved in helping to, you know, broker makes it, I actually think after having looked at these emails and the reporting on this, and I would just say that the reporting on this that's been done so far has been done by a group at DropSite News that has published the analysis of these documents and many of the documents. And we should say that these are emails which were hacked and leaked. It's thought potentially by the Iranians, aren't they? In some of these cases, the easy way to describe what he's doing is, for example, there's a pretty significant natural gas deal that's been struck between Israel and Egypt, where the Israelis are going to actually ship natural gas in this field off of Haifa through Egypt.

33:11Gordon:And it would be easy to say that Epstein, looking at the emails, is he helping to broker this deal? Well, not really. He's kind of involved in helping to set up. There's obviously like a decade of negotiations and back and forth meetings between a huge number of, you know, Israeli officials, Egyptians, bankers. And Epstein is kind of involved in little bits and pieces along the way, helping to arrange meetings and offer advice to Ehud Barak. So he's involved in this kind of political sphere, security sphere, but very much in the background and very much as a kind of informal advisor and fixer for Ehud Barak.

33:58Gordon:Again, in this kind of social broker, making connections vibe, he tries to help Ehud Barak establish a back channel to Russian officials during the Syrian civil war with the idea that that might help enable the Russians to convince Assad to step down. Of course, nothing came of it, but Epstein was kind of helping Barack get meetings set up by leveraging some of Epstein's contacts in Russia. So again, this kind of role as a fixer that he's playing for Barack. So he's kind of using this network. Again, it's very Robert Maxwell-esque, I guess, in some ways, as he's kind of using his huge Rolodex to make connections and to bridge networks.

34:49Gordon:which is a valuable thing for Ehud Barak or potentially in theory for a spy service.

34:58David:Yeah. But if we go back to our central question, does it prove he was working for a spy service? I think the answer is it doesn't prove it. Because A, a relationship with an Israeli former minister official is not the same as a relationship with Mossad. And also this kind of work, as you is brokering fixing in that kind of slightly murky world where security business collide internationally. But it isn't spy work, is it? I think that's worth saying. It doesn't kind of support that idea that he was certainly an intelligence asset. But it does give us an insight into the kind of the circles he moved in and the contacts he had and what he was able to do with his kind of Rolodex of contacts, which I think is interesting.

35:47David:So was Jeffrey Epstein working with or for an intelligence service? I mean, I don't think we provided any proof that he has, even though there's some kind of interesting conjecture about where he might have been of value or what he might have done. More in certain areas, certainly, than others though.

36:04Gordon:Yeah. Well, I think we both probably violently agree, Gordon. It's very unlikely that Epstein was using the sort of sex trafficking ring as a big blackmail operation. For an intelligence service, yeah. As opposed to on his own behalf, yeah. Sure, sure. And it's interesting, when I spoke with a lot of these former CIA officers over the past few days as we've been putting this together, there was unanimous agreement that that very click-baity, salacious piece of the theory is extremely unlikely. The other type of source is someone who's collecting what we'd call FI or foreign intelligence. Think the series we did last year on Adolf Tolkachev, the billion-dollar spy.

36:55Gordon:He's a Soviet engineer working at the heart of the military industrial establishment in the mid-1980s. he is passing the agency plans for avionic systems and Soviet fighter planes. He's got access to FI. He's got state secrets, right? He's got access to secrets.

37:14David:Yeah.

37:15Gordon:Right. Exactly. I mean, we did the Venezuela episodes. This CIA source, the source the agency seems to have had that was very close to Maduro and was passing information on his pattern of life. That is not the sort of information that Epstein would have had. I mean, he might have had little bits and pieces of stuff. But he doesn't really have ongoing access to sensitive state secrets. But there are types of contacts and sources beyond FI producers. And I think this is where, again, in theory, Epstein could make more sense. I mean, there's people that are called social brokers, right? So it's someone who agrees to create a scenario where an introduction looks casual.

38:04Gordon:So, for example, you know, something that the agency might do, let's say in Hollywood, would be to develop a relationship with a big Hollywood producer, director, actor, and when they throw a party to get the right people invited so that a contact could be made between the agency and, you know, and a potential target for foreign intelligence. So there's social brokers, there are assessment collectors, so people who collect information on targets and help assess them for development or recruitment. So this could be someone who has access to huge networks of other humans and can say, okay, who's having an affair?

38:50Gordon:Who's secretly gay? So that an eventual case officer, when they're making their approach or target, can sort of understand where the cracks in that person might be that they could exploit.

39:00David:Yeah, and I mean, I think back to some of the other kind of people in history who've done that, who had a social network through which they could pass gossip. And you think about the Cambridge spies and Guy Burgess, we'll be, I think, talking about him soon on the podcast. But also, I remember the story we did very early on about Anna Chapman, who was moving in elite circles in Manhattan on behalf of the SVR, the Russian Intelligence Service, until she was picked up in 2010. Now, she didn't have access to secrets, but she did have access to a lot of interesting people on the kind of high-end elite party scene in Manhattan.

39:32David:And I think we both agreed that had its value for Russian intelligence, to collect details on people, to know who's up, who's down, what the gossip is. There is a value to that for intelligence agencies, which is different, as you said, from kind of state secret stuff.

39:48Gordon:Yeah. And the other one, and I love this term, is a deep pockets guy. which is how these former case officers will refer to it. It's a deep pockets guy. It's an access agent with deep pockets.

40:03David:And you should say an access agent is someone who provides access to something else, to a facility, to a place, or to something else, rather than the intelligence themselves. Yeah. And a lot of times these deep pockets guys would be a rich person who's bored

40:17Gordon:and who wants to do something that to them feels more meaningful than just making money. And so in this case, it could be, we've got some equipment we need moved across a border or from point A to point B. Could you help us? Could you loan us a boat or a plane? Epstein had both of those. They could move money. They could hide money. Epstein was also good at those things. Could you buy a building somewhere? Our government would have a hard time buying a building in denied country A. Could you help us do that? Interestingly, if they have access to an organization, family office, could you provide cover to some of our intelligence officers or Knox through that organization or family office?

41:03Gordon:Could you help link these kind of two networks that you know that you can connect that we want connected to enable this kind of operation? So Epstein's a spy. Well, it's like, okay, that's not a helpful tagline because it ignores the different ways in which someone could actually work with or for an intelligence service. But having kind of laid that out, I think what does seem substantiated, and as we get to the end of our two-episode exploration of this question about whether Epstein was working with or for an intelligence service, what seems substantiated is that Epstein used his network, some of which did rub kind of, you know, up close to the intelligence world.

41:54Gordon:They're kind of spy or intelligence adjacent, as we've said. He used those networks to promote the financial interest that he and his friends had. And that there was probably an overlap in some of these cases between his own financial interests, the interests of his friends and Israeli security. But it looks like he was probably kind of a social broker in deep pockets guy for Ehud Barak, right, from these emails at least. While operating in that sphere, he might have bumped into intelligence officers. But again, there aren't facts out there to substantiate any kind of relationship between Jeffrey Epstein and Mossad or another intelligence service.

42:46Gordon:I think that's where I've come down at the end of this. Yeah.

42:51David:And I mean, I think it's really useful the way you talk about it's not as simple as being an agent or not or a spy or not. There are lots of people who kind of bump alongside the intelligence world and occasionally have contacts in the intelligence world and whom the intelligence world might be interested in and want to know what they're doing. But that is slightly different from actually being, A, a spy, or B, being tasked by or working for that intelligence service. I mean, I've come across murky characters in my time, believe it or not, David, you know, the kind of world of kind of arms dealers and, you know, people who are in that world.

43:33David:And dare I say, certain types of international businessmen who also seek to cultivate sometimes relationships with intelligence agencies because they hope it might buy them protection, access, confidential information, entrances to the right places themselves. And sometimes those intelligence agencies are also curious what those people are up to, you know, and they can be useful sources of kind of gossip or information and maybe can be of use for something or other. But it is slightly different from there being a kind of formal established relationship. And it just feels to me like Jeffrey Epstein moved in those murky circles in which, as you said, he will have bumped into lots of intelligence services.

44:13David:They will have known about stuff about him. I don't doubt. he would have maybe cultivated contacts with them maybe in the hope it might protect him in some way but but that is slightly different from actually saying he's a spy yeah yeah exactly and i think

44:29Gordon:you know it's probably worth at the end here just reiterating kind of going back to the compromise angle right this really the frankly i think conspiracy theory that uh is most commonly linked to the Epstein is a spy theory, right? There's no credible evidence that Mossad had anything to do with that. CIA would not have touched it with a 10 ,000 foot pole. I don't think the Brits would either. The Brits wouldn't have either, right? And so what I think is interesting, and why I think it's helpful we've unpacked this for listeners, and I hope listeners have found it useful, is that what does seem clear, though, is that Epstein was floating in spy-adjacent networks and was involved in fixer work that did have political and security connections to it.

45:33Gordon:He's just not doing that. at least there's no evidence that he's doing that kind of work at the behest of or for any intelligence service. And frankly, the very clean, I think, given what we know about Epstein, the very clean sort of lens to use to interpret all of this is the value that he created for himself was leveraging his massive Rolodex and his networks. And he was very driven by, it seems, financial motivations here. You don't have to layer in an intelligence angle to explain his desire to be a sort of fixer or social broker for his friends. That was his life and existence.

46:19David:Yeah. And I think you can see it as him using the connections, yeah, for his financial support, but more for his pretty dark predatory and criminal sexual behavior. And you do wonder how far he was also running almost like a personal intelligence agency and compromise operation for his own, you know, service of his own dark ends, rather than doing it for a formal foreign intelligence service. And I think that with the video recordings and everything else also seems kind of at least plausible to me. And, you know, one of the reasons why it is just such a kind of dark and in many ways, awful story.

46:55David:But yeah, I think that's a great place to leave it, isn't it, David. And I think hopefully we've unpacked some of those questions because they are floating around a lot. And we do hear people asking this question. As you said, they've been asking it of us. What do we think of the Epstein files? But I'm sure there's more to come out on those files. I think from what I hear, there's a lot more files which lawyers are looking at. So who knows what else will come out? And we'll come back to it if there's anything new or anything that changes that assessment. But I think that gives an idea, I think, of what we think of it at the moment, at least.

47:28David:Yeah, that's right.

47:29Gordon:No, and we should say, we'll do more on this if events change and it makes sense to do so. Next week, we will be starting a very exciting four-part series on someone, Gordon, who was actually, and very, we've confirmed, was a spy, and that is Kim Philby. We're doing four episodes on the young Kim Philby, who I think we'd probably both agree is Britain's greatest traitor.

48:01David:Yeah, the man who betrayed MI6 to the Russians, to the KGB, probably did more damage psychologically as well to Britain than any other spy in its history. And actually, we've been talking about Jeffrey Epstein. I think, And in a way, Kim Philby is an interesting parallel because it's an example of a very patient, very long term, classic spy operation of the type that the Russians were and are capable of operating, where you do send someone into the heart of the establishment. And Kim Philby, along with some of the other Cambridge spies like Gaia Burgess, were able to kind of move around the British establishment in a kind of Epstein-like way and do enormous damage because they really were spies working for the KGB.

48:49David:So I think, you know, it's a chance to kind of explore what that looks like and the psychology, I think, of what leads a very young man to make that commitment. So, yeah, we're starting that four-part series next week.

48:59Gordon:And, you know, longtime listeners to the podcast will, of course, know that Gordon Carrera has an inexplicable fondness for treason. And so we'll get to experience that over the course of a couple weeks as I systematically dismantle his misconceptions and bizarre obsessions with traitors. So we also have that to look forward to. And if you want all of that at once, just to gorge on it, as soon as those four episodes drop, do go and join the Declassified Club at therestisclassified.com where you get early access. You also get access to bonus content. We've got some great bonus content coming as part of that Filby series, including a tape that Gordon Carrera dug out of the Stasi archives, I believe.

49:55Gordon:isn't that right Gordon?

49:56David:Yeah of Kim Philby talking himself about his career so yeah that'll be there for Declassified Club members so do join up but otherwise we'll see you next time We'll see you next time