121. Kim Philby: Stalin’s Mole Inside MI6 (Ep 1)

19:18David:my starting because it cricket could go on for like five days and end in a draw which is you know anyway that's we'll come we'll come to cricket let's not get too diverted so um kim film his father he comes back back and forth but he's you know the dad spends most of the 1920s living in the middle east i mean most of the rest of his life really living in the middle east sometimes with and sometimes without kim's mother he quits his government job and becomes an explorer in the 20s so he's going to travel by camel across the empty quarter of the arabian peninsula which had never been properly explored before i've never been across i don't know if you have david in

19:55Gordon:your time but no but essentially it's a mass of just absolutely barren uninhabited for the most part desert across vast swaths of Saudi Arabia is what the empty quarter is.

20:10David:And his father is going to kind of cross it, you know, starts to wear Arab dress, risking his life. As I said, a kind of advocate for the Arab cause, which makes him critical of the British government, who he kind of rubs up the wrong way. And he's going to become a semi celebrity in his own right, which in some ways, you know, he's not thrown out of the British establishment because he's famous and he's an explorer, but he's seen as a bit of a kind of roguish character and he's dreaming of becoming rich successful also of the government listening to his advice on the arab world because he sees himself as the expert so he's got this i think he's got this sense of destiny for himself which will then extend to his son so the relationship between the father and son is fascinating because young kim also develops this really bad stammer He really struggles to get his words out.

20:59David:And some, a lot of people say it's the absence of his parents or the shadow of this flamboyant father, which causes that. Now, of course, it's quite hard to diagnose.

21:11Gordon:It reminds me a little bit of, I mean, Edward Lee Howard had the father who was borderline, maybe not even borderline, but abusive on occasion and had, you know, issues with like bedwetting and things like that. So I wonder if, you know, talking about the stammer, it seems there's sort of the similar, I guess, feature of this father that in some ways is absentee and in other ways is very domineering.

21:39David:Tim Philby himself will say, well, my dad didn't influence anything I did because he was thousands of miles away. But actually, you can sense this slight, whether there's a bit of inferiority against this adventurous big father, but also the father gives him a sense of rebelliousness, of kind of non-conformism. I mean, Kim Philby will later say one of the things his father impressed on him was that if you feel strongly enough about anything, you've got to have the guts to go ahead and do it. and you know as we'll see that's something which the son does and which the father does so there's

22:11Gordon:definitely an influence there i mean that quote we read up front was indicative that he's this kind of um even as a uh a child and maybe his father lived this out kind of a defector in place you know in a way he's he's he's english but not quite and sort of looks at it yeah looks at the

22:30David:whole system with a kind of private scorn yeah in it but not of it i think yeah there's a bit of one-upmanship perhaps with his father as well but but you know another thing i think the father is definitely trying to make the son into a more successful version of himself or at least have him follow in his footsteps because in in 1924 young kim philby goes to westminster school as a boarder just as his father had done so he's following in his father's footsteps and he's gonna push his son on the same path, kind of molding him in some ways.

23:01Gordon:Our producer, Becky, has noted Westminster School, Gordon, alma mater of Louis Thoreau, Nick Clegg, Helena Bonham Carter, and Andrew Lloyd Webber. So a distinguished cast of characters. Amongst others, yeah. Where does Westminster fit in sort of the landscape of posh? You know, I think in the states we would call them private schools but confusingly uh on your fair island you call them

23:25David:public schools is that right yeah yeah and and and westminster which is it's right as the name suggests in westminster in the middle of london attached to kind of next to westminster abbey uh it's not as particularly at this time in the kind of 20s not as sporty or as posh as kind of Eton or Harrow, not quite like them. And there's a bit more space, I guess, for eccentricity and individuality than some of the others. I love the fact that when he eventually, I don't want to give too much away, but when he eventually flees Kim Philby, he leaves his wife behind, but he takes with him his Westminster scarf, which suggests a kind of bizarre attachment to his school um but the best insight i think from from from the uh about the early kim come comes from tim milne who we read you read from at the top milne was this school friend of philby uh his he wrote a memoir about called kim philby which actually was blocked by mi6 from being published for many many years and was only released actually in the last i think five ten years you can now get hold of which because it's such a fascinating insight into not just kim philby but also into MI6 operations.

24:40David:And there's a quote from Milne, Westminster at this time, and particularly his college, were not very typical of public school life, and Kim himself was highly untypical even of Westminster. So, Milne describes Philby as a bit of a loner, he's got the barriers up, something untouchable about him, but also a kind of inner strength and self-reliance that made others, you know, respect him. So I think, yeah, you get a bit of a sense of an early character who's quite unusual already then.

25:11Gordon:Milne has this story from his book where he and Kim go to a soccer match. You've written a football game. A football game. I'll translate it.

25:23David:They go to Chelsea against Clapton Orient. Although for any football fans out there, Kim Philby is an Arsenal supporter.

25:31Gordon:What is the profile of an Arsenal supporter?

25:34David:Well, I think our current Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, is an Arsenal supporter. It's North London. North London. But it's... So I'm not going to profile Arsenal supporters because I know a lot of people on the podcast. Bin Laden was another Arsenal. Bin Laden and Kim Fulby.

25:51Gordon:So we're into the theme here. Keir Starmer should maybe switch clubs. This is a bad set of... This is a bad choice. Bad company to choose.

26:00David:that's right and now here comes the first cricket cricket reference so good tim mil and kim philby play cricket and there are various cricket positions and uh mil notes uh kim philby used to field on the off side i wish i could report that his regular position there was third man but i think he was more usually to be found at deep extra cover it's self-appropriate in its own way so i should explain kim philby later becomes known as the third man in the spy ring but and third man is a uh position in cricket david the fielding and i'll just let you know this you will find the third man positioned behind the wicket keeper on the off side the fielder is usually 45 degrees to the wicket around on the boundary it covers a large area anything that goes through the slip and gully area got it yeah is the off side also starboard

26:53Gordon:is that the same and it's different from offside and football as well which we should soccer so that was a bad place to start i'll say that was i think we were in too deep got it essentially you're hitting it with like you have this swatting thing right looks like a spanking stick and that's what they hit the little that's what they the red ball the the little red ball the the quaffle they hit the quaffle let's maybe let's maybe do a separate i think we might have to do a

27:21David:separate episode in which we in which we we explain cricket to you i might get the sports the rest of sports people to do that what is the point of cricket point of any sport any sports like enjoy yourself try to win no no no not like not like the not the spirit not the spiritual point

27:37Gordon:i mean are you hitting what are you trying to achieve are you trying you're trying to get

27:40David:more runs than the other team runs when you run back and forth after you've hit it okay there's

27:45Gordon:a there's a similarity with baseball in baseball you want runs too yeah yeah um i i think maybe

27:52David:we should possibly take a break there before we get too deep into cricket because having dealt with westminster having dealt with cricket next will come to cambridge which is where the action really starts spring starts at the home depot and we are bringing the heat to your backyard this

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30:21Gordon:Well, welcome back. It is the autumn slash fall of 1929 and we are at Cambridge, Gordon, a wonderful institution that, unlike Oxford, has produced some of the greatest traders of the 20th century.

30:37David:Yeah, quite right. Autumn, fall, 1929, Kim arrives at Trinity College, one of Cambridge's richest and largest. There to study history, later switches to economics first year seems a bit lonely the stammer doesn't help much with socializing he's not sporty particularly bit into cricket but not massively doesn't drink much at this point uh we'll come back to the drinking later so he's in the elite if you like but he doesn't quite fit he's not one of the kind of posh boys from the really you know kind of aristocratic families you get this sense he's got a bit of a thing for the underdog or the outsider One of his first friends is a kind of working class minor who's come on a special scholarship.

31:18David:But the crucial thing is the context into which he arrives, because Philby arrives at university. At this time, a really intense domestic and international turmoil where everyone is thinking and talking about politics. So he arrives in 1929, which, of course, year of the Wall Street crash, depression starts, unemployment on the rise in Britain as well as in the US and around the world. and that sense that kind of capitalism, the capitalist system seems to be failing. And then politically - Hang on. It hung on for a while longer though, unfortunately. Well, that's what he thinks. That's what it looks like at that moment.

31:53David:You can see that. And also you have a Labour government in the UK, but it's struggling. And in 1931, its leader sells out and joins with the Conservatives. So Labour is going to get crushed. So the hopes that also a kind of left-wing democratic government can bring about change also seems to be undermined and the conservative elite doesn't look like it can kind of cope with this crisis meanwhile you have got the communist you know five-year plans in the soviet union look at that point like they're doing okay people haven't seen the bad side and then i think the the crucial bit though and this is where we come to my kind of you know one of the reasons why i have a touch of sympathy touch of sympathy with kim is because it again it's the context.

32:39David:He can see these darker populist forces on the rise across Europe with the arrival of fascism. And I think that is crucial to understanding why he does what he does.

32:49Gordon:He's very well-traveled throughout Europe in the 1930s. I mean, I guess with his buddy, Tim Milne alone, he makes three trips between August of 1930 and the spring of 1933, He goes to France, he goes to Austria, Hungary, Germany, Belgium, back to France. I mean, he's getting an experience that perhaps not many of his Cambridge classmates are getting in the same time period, kind of seeing what's going on around the continent as you do have this kind of rise of fascism and populist movements around Europe.

33:27David:Yeah, that's right. I mean, I think he's going to see the arrival of kind of fascism, populism, the darkening clouds of Europe up close. In 1932, he plans to go to the Balkans, but then first goes to Germany. And that trip leaves a deep impression. He's in Munich on the eve of an election. And he actually attends a massive Nazi torchlight rally at which Hitler speaks. you know milne writes what impressed and alarmed us was the totally uncritical attitude of so many perfectly ordinary german men and women a day or two later we sat in a workers cafe listening to the ominous election results on the radio nazi gains everywhere we felt we'd seen into the future it's an interesting quote isn't it they feel like they're they're seeing the rise of fascism in Europe.

34:14Gordon:Well, and I guess, you know, in 33, then in January, Hitler becomes chancellor of Germany. And, you know, Kim, I mean, he seems, you know, obviously, he's horrified by Hitler and the rise of the Nazis. But he's also, I mean, I guess, deeply interested in kind of understanding it and observing it, isn't he? Because going to Berlin, I think in March of 1933, sees this huge torchlight street parade in celebration of the reopening of the Reichstag. He watches it from a balcony. So he's kind of seeing fascism up close, which I think is going to send him down the opposite path.

34:55David:Yeah. And I think that is one of the ways of seeing his choice is that it is, he sees it as a choice between fascism on the one hand and communism on the other, because I think he sees that the kind of democratic socialist route to oppose fascism isn't going to work. And so he's fundamentally, in some ways, I think, an anti-fascist as much as a communist.

35:18Gordon:Reminds me a little bit of the story of Klaus Fuchs, yet another British traitor who was dispatched to America after incompetence on the part of your secret services and then poisoned ours. But that's neither here nor there. But Klaus Fuchs had seen similar, he had grown up in Germany, had seen these dynamics playing out at the 1920s and 1930s. And in many ways, Klaus Fuchs's work with the KGB was driven by his anti-fascism, exactly as you're saying, sort of Philby's experiencing here in the 1930s as well.

35:59David:Yeah, I think that's right. So I think these trips to Europe are pretty formative for him. Interesting enough, in one of his trips, Milne remembers that while he's in Germany, Kim gets a letter from home saying that his father, Sinjin, had turned Muslim, as Milne writes, which I think means converted to Islam, which is part, just to keep the father's story going in the background. In 1930, he's going to convert and Ibn Saud is going to organise for the father to visit Mecca. He actually converts. He converts to Islam. Yeah, he actually converts. Although there is this suggestion that he actually partly converts because he's trying to get business deals.

36:33David:And he thinks it will be easier to get the business deals if he's converted. So, yeah. I mean, so the father is still on his journey, I think it's fair to say. But Philby, he's done these European trips. And it's only when he's at Cambridge in this 1929 to 1933 period, he does join the Socialist Society, which a lot of people are members of. You know, it's the kind of just the left wing society. But it's only right at the end of his time at university in 1933 that he converts from, if you like, socialism, democratic socialism, to full on Marxist communism. And he definitely, it's really interesting because he comes under the influence of some left wing academics.

37:13Gordon:It's just a classic story of going to college, Gordon, and being radicalised by your professors, right? I mean, who hasn't been there, right?

37:22David:One economics lecturer is called Maurice Dobb, who is a socialist turned communist. And it's really interesting. You get this one figure, Dobb, who brings in left-wing speakers into the university. He runs small discussion groups with the students. And he basically clearly sees it as his mission to effectively evangelise this young generation of students and draw them towards communism. I mean, that's what he's doing.

37:47Gordon:I guess it does beg the question of how the British security services are looking at this dynamic. Because I would imagine most of the focus is on Nazi Germany and whether the Nazis have agents in place in the UK. but there has to be some interest in, I don't know if it's in academia or more broadly throughout the society, but there's got to be some interest in this kind of potential for communist influence as well. Is that going on at this point? Is MI5 looking at this?

38:25David:So MI5 and Special Branch, they're not very big at this time. And it looks like most of their interest is in potential communist infiltration of things like the army or or things like that. Something like the university, they're less focused on. But there's some signs they're aware of some activity around Dobb, and they've got a little bit of an interest in it, but definitely not much. Because Dobb is basically acting as a kind of recruiter. We think of the tap on the shoulder famously by tutors to join MI6, but Dobb is doing the kind of tap on the shoulder as a recruiter to become communist. So it's just in that last summer of 1933 when he's leaving Cambridge that Philby says later, you know, there's one evening he's sitting alone in his room, in his armchair, and he just makes this kind of intellectual decision that he is a Marxist, that he's a communist.

39:14David:He was in, he'd never be out. And I think it is a kind of intellectual conversion by him. It's not just a kind of emotional thing. He thinks, I believe this. You know, I believe this interpretation of history and view of the direction of history to be true.

39:31Gordon:And he really is a true believer. isn't he the decision is informed and influenced by the family upbringing the class system friends around him you know university professors but at the end of the day he is a deeply ideological recruit yeah or will become exactly you know a recruit like he's a deeply ideological person yeah yeah yeah i think that's absolutely right in june of 1933 he's finished cambridge and he goes, I guess, back to the continent, straight to Vienna. I guess he wants to be kind of in the thick of it, I guess you could say.

40:11David:Yeah, it's really interesting that his first thought was, I want to do something. And he wants to go back to Austria. Austria at that point is really interesting because there's a huge amount of tension in Vienna, specifically the Austrian capital, between a city, which is pretty left wing and has kind of a big workers movement and the government and the rest of the country which is pretty right wing and so the tension is growing at that time there's private militias and armies on both sides and Philby I think feels like this is where the action is this is where things are happening so he turns you know to Maurice Dobb this professor who's pleased that he's converted Dobb says you know I've been watching you and he says I've got some contacts for you out in Austria.

40:54David:I can put you in touch with some groups which do help left-wing groups. And he puts him in touch with one in Paris, which puts him in touch with another one in Vienna. Interesting enough, he tells his parents he's going out to Austria to learn German so he can get into the foreign office, which is what his dad wants for him. But that is not what, you know, he wants to go out there. He needs cover.

41:13Gordon:He needs some cover with his parents. He's already getting cover.

41:16David:But what I think is so interesting is he's intellectually converted to communism but he also wants to do stuff he's not a kind of someone who wants to sit and write essays he actually wants to get in the the thick of it by going to austria again you have to have some respect for this david um but philby arrives and um he's looking for somewhere to stay given the address sympathy gordon might be evidence of the societal masochism that you were uh discussing

41:44Gordon:earlier with just this yeah this constant sort of need to kind of relive this trauma the pain the pain of betrayal of betrayal by then and and the way you're living it out is with you know sort of flashing some leg of sympathy for kim philby throughout our series well let's see let's yeah

42:04David:i i still got it i've still got the sympathy at this point because he arrives and what what what What happens now is a key part of the story, because he's a young man. What happens? He falls in love. And this is, David, a love story, this story of Kim Filvey. You might think it's a story of betrayal and class, but no, it is a love story, because he meets Litsie, the daughter of the family he's staying with. She is 23, so she's two years older than him, already divorced, dark brown hair, blue eyes, full-on communist also uh knew how to enjoy life sexually liberated and in touch with soviet intelligence well put it this way with within within 10 days they're having an affair uh and the um the suggestion is this is kim philby's first sexual experience tim milne and others think he's not had a girlfriend didn't have one at cambridge or anything else um and i do like this this is Philby's own recollection is the first time they make love is in the snow, which was actually quite warm once you got used to it, he later recalled.

43:14Gordon:I mean, I can't believe that I am listening to this is so this is very un-Kararin of you, Gordon, to be leaving these kind of personal details into a character study on the rest of the class.

43:27David:But it's partly because who makes love in the snow? I mean, well, maybe I mean, I don't know.

43:31Gordon:maybe write in listeners if that no don't write in write in yes well and i plead we're not that i plead the fifth on this one gordon i plead the fifth i refuse to share he's infatuated he's

43:42David:infatuated yeah yeah yeah i think that's right and i love this you know on their first meeting she says how much money do you have and he says he's got a good question you start start right there that's a good first question well it's a communist question isn't it if you're going to be a revolutionary it's like what what money do you bring to the cause and he says well i've got £100, which has been given to him by his dad, which I think is like money from one of his, you know, his dad's got some money from a book he sold. And she basically works out how much she can live on and says, right, I'm taking a quarter of that money and I'm going to give it to the cause of the revolution.

44:12David:You can keep the rest to live on. And, you know, that's it. So they fall for each other. They, you know, move into a flat together. The crucial thing, he's got a British passport, which gives him the chance to move around the city in the way she and other communists can't because the bridge passport i think really opened doors at that time

44:30Gordon:i did um did did i i don't know what's gotten into me gordon i'm just i think it's the subject i think it's i think it's the subject of uh this this yet another traitor that you sort of fed into the bloodstream of american intelligence that's got me all riled up against antibodies are up yeah exactly exactly but let's see is she in touch with so obviously she is a full-on raging communist but is she in touch with soviet intelligence officers at this time or is that

45:00David:so yeah it it looks like so she's part of a kind of circle of activists you know who are also some of them are soviet agents so she's moving in those kind of circles basically and and and that draws kim philby into it at this point at this point he's still basically a kind of courier he's moving money and people around um then the most dramatic thing happens on february 12th 1934 all the lights go out in their apartment and the whole block vienna erupts in violence because the government is cracking down on the workers uh it's sending in the troops basically there's a very short but very intense burst of violence um because the leftists have no weapons i mean philby and his group are told to go set up the machine gun they've got they go around looking for it and they can't find it because it doesn't exist and so you know they almost can't fight back and they're just trying to survive because the government brings in artillery i mean it brings in heavy artillery and shelves the apartment blocks where the workers are based and hiding and i think a thousand people are killed so it's a it's it's a pretty dramatic crackdown which pushes all these leftists into hiding.

46:15David:And this is where I think Philby comes alive to some extent, because he gets really involved. He rushes to see one of his friends, who's the Daily Telegraph correspondent in Vienna, grabs three of his suits, and he's going to take those down to people who are hiding in the sewers so they can change out of their private militia uniforms and into these suits. He's going to be dodging bullets. He's helping support the underground. He's moving people, using his British passport to kind of get them out to safety, helping the wounded who are being treated, you know, again in hiding places and underground from the violence.

46:52David:He's doing some pretty heroic and brave things in those days. And it's just this brief period before the left is kind of completely crushed. And then another interesting thing, I think, is that Litzy and her friends are all in danger because they're known left-wing activists. so they're being hunted by the police and on February the 24th so 12 days after the uprising he marries Litzy um marries this young woman this is actually going to kind of come back in the story in interesting ways the fact that they're married he will tell people it's purely so she has the protection of a British passport but everyone else is convinced that actually he's in love with her we're going to see there are a lot of women in the Philby story but I actually You think Lytze is the one he really loved.

47:40Gordon:And then I guess with a new bride in April of 1934, which I mean, I guess is less than a year. He'd been in Vienna less than a year. The two of them go back to England and, you know, he's had this searing experience of seeing the results of fascist violence up close.

48:03David:He's now back in, you know, the safety of suburban England. And his mother and father, perhaps unsurprisingly, are not keen on Litsy. She's Hungarian. She's part Jewish. She's got a strong personality. She's a leftist. Philby and her are going to move into a kind of one room flat. He's looking for work. He was thinking about joining the civil service. Not sure he'll get in. She's still moving in left wing circles. And it's at this point that he is approached by Soviet intelligence. And, you know, it's worth us really drilling down into how this happens, because there's a talent spotter and it's not Litsy but it's another kind of Austrian emigre young woman in this case called Edith Tudor Hart now she's called Tudor Hart because even though she's Austrian originally she's married an English doctor called Alexander Tudor Hart who'd also like Philby gone out to Austria to kind of help and move in left-wing circles and also again like Philby and Litsy you know she'd then come back you know with Alexander Tudor Hart to Britain and she'd been under occasional surveillance actually so mi5 and the police had been aware of her because she'd attended you know workers rally in trafalgar square um at one point and they'd suspected she might be working with russian intelligence edith tudor hart um but but even though they're kind of aware of her and actually at this point in 1934 looking for her they don't know where she lives and there's no surveillance on her which is crucial because she is the one who is going to be the kind of intermediary, the talent spotter to put Philby in touch with Soviet intelligence.

49:40Gordon:Well, and I guess crucially, the day that she kind of takes Kim out on a walk in part to recruit him, there's no surveillance that day on her by MI5 or the special branch. So there's no evidence, I guess, of his direct contact with either Tudorhard or his recruitment.

50:05David:Which, because history would have been very different if there had been that. Yeah. So she says, let's go for a walk, a taxi, then a tube, then the bus. They get on and off as the doors are shutting, see if anyone else is still on the platform. Surveillance detection route. Two-hour surveillance detection route. She's trained, you know, she knows what she's doing. and eventually takes him to Regent's Park. They head for a bench. He sits down, Philby sits down on the bench next to a man. And at that point, Edith just walks away. So she leaves them. It is worth painting a picture of the man he's introduced to because his real name, although Philby won't learn that for a while, is Arnold Deutsch.

50:46David:And I think he's got claim to be possibly one of the greatest recruiters of agents in spy history. I think he is that important. Five foot seven, curly brown hair, blue eyes. He's an Austrian. So again, that might help. Yeah, there's no Russians in this story.

51:05Gordon:It's really interesting, isn't it? The recruitment to work for Soviet intelligence is effectively done by Austrians in the case of Kim Philby.

51:14David:Yeah, but it is interesting, isn't it? Because at that time, Soviet intelligence, I guess, could draw on international communists from all across Europe who were allied to the communist cause and who were willing to work for it. And they were kind of very useful, I think, for Moscow. And it allows them to move around Europe. And he's also so interesting because, you know, he's a proper intellectual, brilliant at languages. He's already got a PhD. He's been a university lecturer. He'd worked on something called the sex poll movement, David. Aware of

51:49Gordon:what that is yeah i i did my master's thesis on the sex pulp so this is arnold deutsch and i have have much in much in common no gordon please will you explain to me what the sex poll movement is

52:03David:the sex poll movement it turns out was a kind of something to do with the relationship between psychology sex and politics which linked the sexual repression to fascism so the idea was if you were very sexually repressed, you'd end up a fascist with the corollary that if you were sexually liberated, then communism was the answer. So there was kind of, I don't know, something about free love and communism. I think that's as far as I got with sex poll. I didn't want to dive too deep in with the web searches into sex poll. I thought it might take me to a strange place.

52:39Gordon:Well, if you'd had your NordVPN on, Gordon, you would have been just fine. So you need to flip that on and all of a sudden that traffic's coming from North Macedonia and not your flat. So, Deutsch, at first, I guess he was kind of a courier, obviously becomes a spy for these international communist networks. And he's arrived in London, and he's living just south of Hampstead Heath at the Lawn Road Flats, which, Gordon, you've noted are quite famous, but this American has no idea why.

53:19David:No, they were quite famous in the 30s. I think it was kind of a left-wing enclave. Although weirdly, he lived next to a flat owned by, well, I'm not sure if it was inhabited by, Agatha Christie. So it was a kind of quite upmarket, left-wing intellectuals, writers world. And he's got cover, actually, as an academic. He's ostensibly researching psychology at University College London, UCL. And I think the thing about him, he's really kind of cosmopolitan, he's erudite, he's an intellectual. It's perfect to appeal to someone like Philby, a young man who has made this intellectual conversion to communism.

53:58David:It's just the right person for the right target. And they speak mainly in German, actually, on this bench. And Philby, he's so impressed by him, his background, his knowledge of Europe. But they discuss what's happening in European politics, the rise of fascism, Marx, what Philby are doing in Austria. And it immediately feels to Philby more like a friendship. I mean, he says he was a marvellous man, simply marvellous. I felt that immediately and it never left me.

54:29Gordon:And I guess part of the pitch that Deutsch makes is to say, you know, you're capable of more than just joining the party, signing up, handing out leaflets. And it must have been flattering to Philby to be noticed, A, and then B, to be asked to work in secret for the communist cause. I mean, that's quite a, you know, obviously it's very risky, but in some ways it's a very flattering pitch.

54:58David:Yeah, it's exciting. If you believe in communism and suddenly someone is saying, you can do something, you're better than just being some normal activist. You can work secretly for us. And it's interesting, he talks about the international communist cause or the Comintern, which is the communist international, rather than specifically Soviet intelligence. So, you know, Deutsch is not saying you're going to be working for Moscow or you're going to be working for the Soviet Union. It's you're working for international communism and the cause. Now, I think Philby would have been smart enough to realise that means also working for Moscow, but there is a kind of ambiguity about it you think so do you think so because i i wonder if

55:41Gordon:this is yet another austrian communist who is you know been put in touch with philby through another contact i just you i wonder yeah given given that philby has no experience with Russian intelligence, with Soviet intelligence at this point at all. Does he realize it? Yeah, does he realize who Deutsch actually is?

56:08David:Yes. I mean, it's definitely not spelt out that Deutsch works for what's called then, we should say, the NKVD, but which we now know is the kind of KGB that later changes its name. But yeah, I mean, it's true. I mean, Philby may have not quite realized that. But I love this line that Deutsch gives him. gives him. He says, you are a bourgeois by education, appearance and origin. You could have a bourgeois career in front of you and we need people who could penetrate into the bourgeois institutions. Penetrate them for us. It's such a great kind of speech to appeal to a kind of young lefty, isn't it?

56:49David:And also it goes to Deutsch's, I mean this is why I think Deutsch is one of the great spy recruiters in history because he's, I think, partly him. It's not just instructions from the centre. Come up with this strategy, which is to cultivate fresh young idealists straight out of university and then send them into the British establishment. And of course, this is kind of different, isn't it, from what we think of normally as spying, where you're recruiting someone who already has access to secrets. You recruit someone who is in a position where they work in the foreign ministry or in part of the secret services, and you're trying to recruit them.

57:29David:This is a kind of different strategy, which is a kind of long-term seeding strategy to find young idealists and then tell them to be penetration agents to get into the British establishment and the elite.

57:42Gordon:I mean, it's brilliant in a way, isn't it? Deutsch does exceptional work in this effort. I believe in the Matrokin archive, I mean, it noted that Deutsch personally recruited 20 assets, like didn't just run or handle them, but actually recruited 20 people. Now, not all of them became as well connected with such primo access as Philby. But that's a pretty astounding number and does, to your point, suggest that Deutsch – We've done these interviews on the club with former CIA case officers. You know, they talk about being able to sort of understand and see the seams and cracks in people, kind of get a handle over time to understand what they want and then give it to them.

58:29Gordon:And it suggests that Deutsch probably wouldn't have expressed it in that way, but was capable of doing exactly that with people like Philby.

58:39David:Yeah. And of course, you can see why they see potential in Philby on their side. famous father, Cambridge education, committed communist, and not yet a party member, which is quite useful. Philby had actually approached the Communist Party, but had been kind of initially rebuffed as they thought he was too posh. So he's not yet kind of associated with communism, which means he can work overtly. So you can see why they think Philby is an attractive young man who they could use to put into the system. I think this is where I have some kind of sympathy with Philby, not ultimately what he does or what, but you can see why with the flattery, with the experience he's had, why this is a kind of interesting offer to him at this point in 1934.

59:21Gordon:It also brings up the question, which we're going to talk about in the next episode for sure, which is whether at this point Philby has actually done anything wrong, really. I mean, because he doesn't have access, you know? I mean, he's basically fresh out of university. he's an ideological fellow traveler with international communism and as a result the Soviet Union but he is he's young he's in love he's he's adventuresome I mean at this point he hasn't actually stolen any state secrets right we should be clear on that I mean he's in contact with a Soviet intelligence officer which I think also by the way Philby will come to think of himself as a Soviet intelligence officer, which I think is interesting.

1:00:09Gordon:He won't see himself as necessarily an agent or asset, but as actually a Soviet intelligence officer. But he hasn't committed espionage yet, I think you could argue.

1:00:20David:Yeah. I think it's that idea. Someone's offered him the chance to do something important, to do something consequential, and also to penetrate the British elite, but also to be part of an even deeper secret society, to have one up on everyone else even inside that elite by being a kind of communist, a secret communist within the elite. So you can see, I don't know, whether it's, you can see the kind of attraction of that. And I mean, some people read it also as rebellion against the father, rebellion against the establishment. I mean, Edward Harrison, who wrote quite a good biography of the young Philby, he thinks the motive is to emulate his father but go further you know his father's a bit of a lefty so the son becomes a kind of even more of a lefty the father was quite critical of britain the son you know goes to the next extreme i also think there's a bit of philby which maybe just kind of enjoys the game and enjoys the kind of complexity and the deceit of it and and having one up on others by having a secret life i think there's a lot of layers to what's going on there as well as the ideological commitment to marxism that's clearly part of it.

1:01:27Gordon:I think it's in the Ben McIntyre book on Philby, which is called A Spy Among Friends, where McIntyre makes the point that there's this kind of concept, which is not specific to Philby, but of an inner ring. And humans by nature want to be inside the inner ring so that they have secrets and information that other people do not. We naturally want to understand what's going on behind closed doors. And to the point on Philby, the idea that he's got this secret, that he has information that nobody around him has about his true loyalties, who he's working for, that is actually, it's a bit counterintuitive, but that's a very powerful motivating force and a way for him, I think, to feel superior to the people around him, without actually needing to make more money or have, you know, a better job or come from a better family.

1:02:29Gordon:He can feel that just by virtue of his, you know, his relationship to Deutsch and the decision that he's made to become a committed communist. And I guess in some ways he's kind of trapped at this point, isn't he?

1:02:45David:Yeah, I think that's what's so interesting. So he effectively says yes, although Deutsch says, you know, to confirm everything, we'll meet again in two weeks. when Deutsch says, I can tell you whether you've been accepted. But yeah, you're right. I think he makes that decision as a very young man at 22. And that sets him out on a path from which effectively there's no turning back. I mean, there is a way in which I think Philby is trapped by his youthful decisions. And particularly this one decision, when, as I said, he's very young, he's 22 or so. And that will define his life. What happens, that one conversation on the park bench in Regent's Park?

1:03:21Gordon:Well, Gordon, there with Philby having made this incredible decision, let's end and we come back next time. We'll see how his journey takes him to the bloody battlefields of the Spanish Civil War and eventually into the heart of the British Secret Service.

1:03:42David:But don't forget, if you want to hear that now, you don't have to wait and you can hear all of this four-part series on Philby, as well as some extra interviews we've got with an expert on the Cambridge Spies and also an amazing tape, really, of Kim Philby talking about what happened to him, which we'll have for club members. And if you want to get all of that, plus lots of other great things, then go to therestisclassified.com, join the Declassified Club. But otherwise, we'll see you next time.

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