172. The Murder of Litvinenko: Russia’s Nuclear Weapon (Ep 4)

19:44Gordon:I have been waiting. Bated breath. When will Gordon Carrera's scoop come into the story? We're there at last.

19:51David:Lit video. I didn't get the first interview. Actually, the first interview in his hospital bed had been done. The BBC Russian service did it. And then the Sunday Times journalist. And that appeared on the 19th of November. And that caused a big fuss. And I was actually going through my notes. and I could see that I did a report the next morning on the BBC on the 20th of November. And I'd already spoken to a source, I still 20 years on will be delicate about who that was, although I do think I know, who said that they thought he'd been poisoned. And at the time, I think they suggested to me it was more likely to be thallium.

20:29David:And they pointed to the fact that thallium had been used by Russians elsewhere in Europe, but not in the UK, they said. And they pointed me to the fact that they were seeing lots of Russian intelligence activity in the UK, not necessarily at Cold War levels, but not far off. And so at this point, I'm starting to cover the story and lots of other people are. And I remember standing outside UCH hospital in those days, reporting that inside Litvinenko was fighting for his life and saying that. And so the media scrum is also really growing as this word spreads that there's a former Russian FSB officer who most people had never heard of, but claiming he'd been poisoned.

21:11Gordon:And the police are still doing their interviews, aren't they? I mean, they're still talking to Litvinenko as much as they can, given his condition. and I think this is this is fascinating because at the end of one of the tapes the police officer asks I guess a very simple question which is can you think of anybody else who may wish to do this sort of harm to you and let Vinenko let's just say he doesn't point the finger at the actual poisoners let's say he kind of this is where I think it to me it's fascinating because he says I have no doubt whatsoever this was done by the Russian secret services I know the order about such a killing of a citizen of another country on its territory, especially if it had something to do with Great Britain, could have been given only by one person.

21:58Gordon:And then the police officer asks, would you tell us who that person is? That person is the president of the Russian Federation, Vladimir Putin. So pointing the finger in high places.

22:08David:Yeah, he thinks he knows who is ultimately responsible for poisoning him. And we'll come back, I think, at the end of this series to the evidence for that. But let's take a break there. And when we come back, we'll look at who comes to see Lipinenko and at his final days.

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24:46Gordon:Well, welcome back. And Gordon, you've teed up this mysterious visitor, Martin, who I think all of our listeners know who Martin works for, but I think it's time that we tell them.

24:59David:Yeah, exactly. He must have slipped past me while I was reporting outside anonymously, as any good spy would. But yes, at the second police hospital interview, Litvinenko's condition was clearly worse. The pair of officers are believing it's a poisoning now. And they ask Litvinenko whom he met the day before he fell ill. And Litvinenko says there was one meeting at 4 p.m. on October the 31st in Waterstone's bookstore in Piccadilly. Fine bookstore. Great bookstore. Great bookstore. It's a really good one. Lots of floors and floors of it and cafes and stuff. but Litvinenko won't provide the man's name while the tape is running with the police.

25:41David:And the police, of course, go, it could be absolutely vital you tell us who that person is, because they're thinking, well, could it have been poisoned the day before? And Litvinenko says, you can call him and he will tell you. And at that point, I love the detail, the tape gets stopped. And you can find the transcripts to these tapes, so that's why we know exactly what happened. And it's two hours before it's turned on again, the tape recorder. And in those two hours, Martin has actually come and gone from the hospital room. And we know he embraces Litvinenko when he arrives. And it's clear that the pair know each other really well.

26:20David:And then the tape goes back on. And the officer asks if the person who'd just been in the hospital, Martin, was the man whom Litvinenko had met at Waterstones. And Lipvynenko said he was. And then it's so interesting. The police officer says on the transcript, on the tape, I don't want to ask you what you talked about with that person. That's wise.

26:44Gordon:That's wise. It's wise.

26:45David:He doesn't want to know. It's so interesting, isn't it? Because you can immediately sense that the police are realizing this case is kind of bumping up against MI6. And the fact clearly that Martin is an MI6 officer. Shocking. It's a shocker. I didn't see it coming. I didn't see it coming. But I mean, you'd love to know from Martin what they talked about.

27:06Gordon:So it's been two weeks since he's been poisoned. Had Martin been visiting or had there been interaction with Litvinenko up to that point with MI6 or no?

27:18David:Well, I think there was definitely interaction because he'd called Martin with his special MI6 Martin phone when he'd first gone into Barnet that Marina had bought. So I think they'd been in touch. And it's entirely possible Martin had been visiting regularly in that period. And I think MI6 as well, my senses initially as well, were not willing to believe the idea he'd been poisoned, but increasingly are coming to that view. And of course, it is interesting that it's at this point around this time that the case is treated as a poisoning and handed to the Metropolitan Police's counterterrorism command.

27:59David:Because we should explain to people that the Counterterrorism Command sounds like it does terrorism, but actually does anything national security related. And their officers are vetted, are cleared to see secret intelligence and therefore to work with MI5 and MI6. So you can see also the transfer of the case to Clive Timmons is also part of MI6 taking this seriously and the realization that there's going to be secret bits to investigating it.

28:27Gordon:Well, and now MI6 is trying to figure out what's going on. And the medical staff, the police, I mean, there are no answers at this point as what's actually affecting him. And what will be the last police interview comes on the evening of November the 20th. I mean, we're almost three weeks after the poisoning at this point. Litvinenko has been moved into intensive care that day. Wires and monitors all around him. He doesn't have any hair. It's been shaved off at this point. And he's lying there. I think this is, is this Gordon when this pretty iconic photo is taken of Litvinenko lying there in his green hospital gown?

29:15David:Yeah, it's interesting. The photo is really interesting because he's got these people around him, Alex Goldfarb, people around Boris Berezovsky, who also understand this is becoming a big media story. There's public interest in this. it's important to get out the message that he's been poised and one of the ways will be through a picture marina is quite reluctant about the picture i think she she doesn't want to reveal to the world you can understand why can't you that how ill he is how he looks but she agrees to have this picture taken which is this iconic picture of him actually it's a remarkable picture because he does look very different without his hair.

29:59David:But he does at that point look defiant somehow against what's happening. And it's that look of defiance he has, which I think is really powerful. So that's happening. The police officers are still there. They're getting to their last interview now with him. One thing he wants to talk about to them is the fact that just last month in October, he got his British citizenship. and he says to the police I love this country and its people although unfortunately I haven't learned English language completely yet I'm proud to say I'm a British citizen yes they did try to kill me and possibly I may die but I will die as a free person and my son and wife are free people and Britain is a great country now as that last interview is coming to an end Litvinenko is asked if there's anything else he wants to say and he remembers taking his son to the Tower of London and showing him the British crown and saying, this is a country that you should defend.

30:56David:But he makes one last request for the police officers. And at this point, I mean, his condition is really worsening. He's actually struggling to talk because there's blisters on his throat. And he says to the police, I want you to pursue the case wherever it goes. And he says, I know there might be political interests which could get in the way. He's upset, for instance, that British political leaders, American political leaders are sitting round the table with Putin at the G8 summit and at other meetings. And he knows that that may cause things to be difficult, but he wants them to keep going.

31:33David:And at that point, the buzzer sound signalling the tape is about to finish. And Litvinenko tells Brent Hyatt, the detective inspector, you know, I trust you completely. Bring this case to an end as far as it's possible. And Brent Hyatt makes the Russian I promise, I will do absolutely everything within my power to ensure this case is properly investigated. And I think it is testament that in this case, the police don't let him down. They really will pursue this case.

32:00Gordon:But of course, Litvinenko is beginning to surrender to the radiation that is very much just cooking his body from the inside out. And it's on that Tuesday, the 21st of November, that this iconic photograph is taken, that defiant look at his eyes, across his face, as you mentioned, Gordon. And it's still a mystery. What is afflicting him? Likvinenko does not have any significant damage to his nerve endings, relatively low thallium levels, so it doesn't fit with the theory, of course, of thallium poisoning. And then on the 21st, the medical staff, the examiners shift to a theory that it could be radiation of some kind.

32:46Gordon:And of course, at this point with him, he's not dead yet, but one tool in a murder inquiry is, of course, going to be a postmortem, which may shed light, the investigators think, on what is actually killing Alexander Litvinenko.

33:03David:That's right. I mean, you normally carry out a post-mortem on someone who's died. But it's back to the idea of this being a really unusual murder inquiry in which the victim is still alive. And so Clive Timmons, this police officer who's in charge, orders what he describes as a living post-mortem, a battery of tests and examinations to try and find out what's happening. He holds up two pictures, one before where Litvinenko is fit and healthy and one after where he's pale and emaciated. And he says, how did he go from that to this? and they're looking at everything. They're looking at, you know, the Geiger counter hadn't shown up any radiation, but they do send a urine sample to the Atomic Weapons Establishment, AWE, which is at Aldermast and a famous site, which builds the UK's nuclear weapons.

33:50Gordon:Probably not accustomed to receiving urine samples at the Atomic Weapons Establishment. No, I don't know.

33:56David:Maybe they are. But it's, you know, it's a strange, interesting place where some of the most secret work goes on. So Litvinenko is struggling. He actually has two cardiac arrests, has to be resuscitated. But then something I find quite odd happens. During this time, these last days effectively, Ahmad Zakhaev, his Chechen friend, who's also in exile in London, comes to visit and brings an imam to Litvinenko's bedside. Now Litvinenko had been technically baptised into the Russian Orthodox Church, But he'd so become, I guess, emotionally attached to the Chechen cause, he'd expressed a desire to convert to Islam.

34:37David:And they'd been talking about that while he was in Barnett Hospital. And so he's going to undertake a ceremony at this point. And Litvinenko's father, Walter, also arrives from Russia on this day, the 21st of November. And Litvinenko tells his father about the conversion. And the father says, it doesn't matter. At least you're not a communist. Which is one way of seeing these things.

35:00Gordon:I would not have had, when we started this series or even this episode, I would not have had deathbed conversion to Islam on my bingo card. But here we are.

35:10David:It's kind of curious, strange detail, isn't it?

35:12Gordon:It comes out of nowhere.

35:14David:It does. It does. But I think it makes you realize how attached he'd become to the Chechen cause, which I think is also interesting. So now we get to November 22nd. 22nd there's a big meeting here of the police atomic weapons establishment people medical consultants clive timmons the police officer in the chair they go through all the possible options now that thallium has effectively been ruled out some of them are really obscure something called stevens johnson syndrome i've never heard of that but i think they're having to go through really obscure things because nothing else fits and then at this meeting one person from awe chirps up and says they'd found a tiny spike of polonium in the urine sample, but it was probably just cross-contamination from something else.

35:56David:And Clive Timmons goes, you mean plutonium? Because of course, no one's heard of polonium. You can't blame him for that. And the AWE person goes, no, polonium. And literally no one had heard of it. And we'll come back. You'll be pleased to know into what it is. But people think, well, we've never heard of this. It seems really obscure and bizarre. So they say, well, to test properly, we need a litre of urine to see if there's any real evidence rather than just a small sample. It's a lot of urine. You are taking the piss, said Timmons bluntly, meaning how are we going to get a litre of urine because he's not producing any?

36:33David:And only then realising the slight irony of his words, because Lipnienko stopped eating and drinking and not producing any urine. But actually, They kept a sample, fortunately, from a week earlier, which gets sent off here on the 22nd. There's a filmmaker who comes in to see Litvinenko and takes some video. It's only released later, and it's really haunting. I mean, it's very different from the ghostly, defiant image. This is him just looking, I mean, terrible. There's wires everywhere. And then there's this 8 p.m. the evening of 22nd November. Marina is there, but she tells him she has to go.

37:09David:She has to go home. They've got their son. She feels guilty. Don't worry, she says, I'll be back tomorrow. And he just says, I love you so much. And those are the last words he speaks to her.

37:22Gordon:The urine sample arrives at the atomic weapons establishment in the early afternoon of the 23rd of November. And the results are confirmed. It's polonium contamination. And the staff at AWE call Clive Timmons just after 3 p.m. to tell him. and they say he's dead. And no, he's not. He's alive. Clive's thinking. No, they explain he's absolutely going to die. Nobody survives this. And so the mystery is solved. He's still alive. The mystery is solved. But now he just has hours left to live.

37:58David:That's right. So it's at 8.51 p.m. on Thursday, the 23rd of November, that Levinenko suffers a third cardiac arrest. an ICU consultant on duty tries to resuscitate him doesn't work and at 9 21 p.m he's pronounced dead from multiple organ failure so the news is going to get out and after his death a statement that he'd agreed to just before he died is going to be read on the steps of the hospital the following day by Alex Goldfarb his friend one of the people who got him out on his journey to London. Now, Marina, like with the photograph, had been cautious about this idea of the statement because she'd always hoped he'd survive.

38:43David:And she'd said that preparing this statement to be read in the event of his death was like giving up. But now it's there and it's read out. And I think it's worth reading it all, isn't it, David? Because I think it's a really powerful statement. I thank my wife, Marina, who has stood by me. My love for her and our son knows no bounds. but as I lie here I can distinctly hear the beating of wings of the angel of death. I may be able to give him the slip but I have to say my legs do not run as fast as I would like. I think therefore that this may be the time to say one or two things to the person responsible for my present condition.

39:24David:You may succeed in silencing me but that silent comes at a price. You have shown yourself to be as barbaric and ruthless as your most hostile critics have claimed. You have shown yourself to have no respect for life, liberty or any civilised value. You have shown yourself to be unworthy of your office, to be unworthy of the trust of civilised men and women. You may succeed in silencing one man, but the howl of protest from around the world will reverberate Mr Putin in your ears for the rest of your life. May God forgive you for what you have done, not only to me, but to beloved Russia and its people.

40:29Gordon:agency reveals that they have found traces of a radioactive substance in him, and they need to start looking for it all around London. So maybe there, Gordon, let's end this episode. And when we come back, we'll see how investigators, the police, the spies track this palladium trail, this radioactive trail, all through the city of London.

40:56David:That's right. And just a reminder, if you want to hear the rest of this series you can right away by joining the declassified club at the rest is classified.com also please do sign up for our newsletter if you remember the club you will also be able to hear that interview from clive timmons the police officer who we've talked about in this episode who led the investigation and of course tickets for the live show on the 4th of the 5th of september but otherwise we'll see you next time we'll see you next time

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