173. The Murder of Litvinenko: The Killers Escape (Ep 5)

16:31Gordon:How does he spill the poison? He must drop it. How does he spill the poison?

16:33David:He must drop it. I know.

16:36Gordon:Was he drunk? I don't know. Maybe he's drunk. Maybe he's drunk. When he's handling the poison. I feel like if I were in London to murder someone with poison, that I would be very, very careful with the poison.

16:49David:I think I would be.

16:51Gordon:I would be like, I'm really going to focus on not spilling this poison when I take it out of my bag.

16:56David:And instead, you can just imagine in the bathroom, it drops. And then you get some towels to wipe it up, puts it in the bin. I mean, it's like, I mean, it's bizarre. So then they're going to find it on Cobb Toon's Hamburg trip. he takes at the end of October. They find it in the car, the passenger seat, even on a teddy bear. And what that looks like is he's shedding little particles of it. So it's not a lot from his earlier attempt. So he's still kind of got it on his system or on his body. And then crucially, they find it for that November the 1st trip. They find it in the room. Kovtun stays in at the Millennium Hotel, places Kovtun touched.

17:35David:uh it looks like they think mixed in the toilet downstairs by reception which we talked about the two men went in there and then it looks like from the readings that it was poured away in the sink in covtoon's room afterwards what whatever was left over so it looks like they've been trained to mix it somewhere and then after they've deployed it pour it away down the sink and that seems to be a pattern that you see from these various visits.

18:04Gordon:Now, the pine bar is obviously key. And the detectives are told that the 600 cups and saucers and 100 teapots that the hotel used had gone through 42 washes since the visit, since Ledvinenko had been there with Lugavoy and Kovtun. But three hours later, the tests come back with what an investigator describes as a nuclear teapot with readings consistent for polonium poured through the spout. And this, at long last, is the murder weapon. It's the teapot.

18:38David:Yeah, that's right. They found the nuclear teapot. So they have their suspects. They've got the evidence. The next step is to talk to them. Let's take a break there. And afterwards, we'll come back and look at a trip by the police to Moscow.

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19:57Gordon:Well, welcome back. It is now December of 2006 and officers from London's Metropolitan Police are going to make a formal visit to Moscow to interview witnesses and try to talk in particular to Kovtun and Lugovoy.

20:15David:And the officers are given a security briefing beforehand, warned they'll be under surveillance. I think the spooks give them that briefing and watch out for honey traps. It's the briefing everyone gets before they get to Moscow. I'm sure you've had that too.

20:27Gordon:Isn't it surprising that the Russians even agree to let them come? I mean, what a different world this is 20 years ago that there's even the British investigators go to Russia to even look at this. It's impossible to imagine today.

20:44David:And we used to take the statements from the Russian authorities almost seriously. The Russian prosecutor would say, well, we've found this or we've done that. And we'd kind of dutifully report it, even with a bit of skepticism, increasing skepticism. But you're right, it does feel like a different age where the police would be allowed to do that. But I think at this point, there is a battle over narratives. I mean, you could imagine if the Russians didn't expect to be exposed for having poisoned him, if we will come back to that, I guess, is the assumption, then they've suddenly got a bit of a problem.

21:20David:And so they're trying to work out how do we respond to it? Maybe we can deflect. Maybe we don't want to look too evasive. So they're going to play games with the police on the visit. There's tons of TV cameras and media when they arrive. They meet Russian officials from the Russian prosecutor's office and it doesn't go well. Officially, of course, the Russians say, we'll do everything we can to help. But they put loads of obstructions in the path of the police. There are even moments where they're driving to an interview to a location and there are cars driving around them erratically. There's attempts to lose them.

21:58David:There's attempts to trail them. There's all kinds of games that are being played. But the priority is seeing Kovtun and Lugovoy in person. And the Brits think they're in a place called Hospital No. 6, which has been built for radiation patients from Chernobyl, which I guess makes sense. The British team are told that these two poor Russians are being treated for radiation sickness. Somehow they've become ill. And so there's delays. There's a two-hour drive to get to the hospital. Everything is done to delay that initial meeting. And I think looking back, it's partly to get the witnesses ready.

22:39David:Police are told you can't bring in recording devices. Only one person can be present. You have to be quick. And the claim is that they're radioactive, Colbertun and Luggerboy. So detectives are going to have to wear protective suits. Now, this is where, again, the story almost descends into farce if it wasn't such a tragedy. I mean, Kovtun is dressed in cream-coloured pyjamas and wearing a kind of paper face mask and a blue plastic head covering. I don't quite know what that looks like. But what it means is you can only see his eyes. Is it him? Is it even him? I mean, do you know? And at the first interview, they get 13 minutes with him in which he basically denies everything.

23:21David:So it's pretty hard. And whilst they're there, the news breaks back in London that this is being treated as a murder inquiry and not just an unexplained death. I mean, I guess that's obvious, but it does put the pressure on the team and raise the tension with Moscow because the men are now being treated as potential suspects, not just witnesses. But the crucial thing is seeing Lugavoy. And here the interviews get cancelled or short notice. This, you know, the claim is, Covtoon, meanwhile, he's gone ill, he's in a coma. I mean, even some of the, this is interesting, some of the police officers themselves feel sick during the visit.

24:03David:One does, then another one is offered tea the next day with a Russian prosecutor, and he has diarrhea after that. And they do wonder, these police officers, if they've been poisoned. I mean, not to kill them, not polonium, but just to make their life difficult. I mean, I don't know whether you think that's plausible or whether it's just bad water, but you could believe that there's a...

24:26Gordon:Sure, that would make sense for the Russians to hassle him. I think that would be in pattern. Why make it pleasant for the investigators who are coming over to take a look at these two guys? And they're trying to get Lugovoy for an interview. Interviews get cancelled, delayed. They do finally see him. And this is wild. So he's in a hospital gown. He's got a designer t-shirt on underneath and doesn't seem sick at all. His hair is not falling out. Kind of looks like he's just shown up at the hospital in his t-shirt and thrown on a gown over it. and the investigators do get a longer interview but are not permitted to record it themselves.

25:06Gordon:The Russians do that and it's through a translator and he's less than truthful, I think it's safe to say, throughout this interview.

25:16David:Yeah, he gets some of the timings wrong of when he was at the Pine Bar. He says he only arrived at four but they've got CCTV of him arriving at 3.30 and they're just not getting many details. And this detail the police remember. At the end of the interview, he just smirks at them. And then in English, everything else has been done in translation. He says, good luck with your investigation.

25:36Gordon:Why are they even admitting that these two guys have radiation sickness?

25:42David:They're going to claim they are victims. Of what? I think they're going to claim that either Litvinenko tried to poison them or someone else tried to poison Litvinenko. And they were... And they just happened to be there. And they got contaminated. Because I guess it helps explain the contamination that's on them and where they've been. If you say, well, we were the victims of someone else's poisoning. So you can, I mean, it's interesting that police interview Lugavoy's wife. It's an interesting question because you wonder if she's a bit annoyed at the fact that he spilled poison everywhere on multiple trips in London and then had the whole family there.

26:21Gordon:And it was Lugovoy's son who he insisted give Litvinenko a hug. Uncle Sasha, shake his hand. Shake his hand.

26:30David:I mean, a few years later, they do get divorced. Shocking. Yeah, shocking. In all, it's a two-week trip. I mean, two weeks in Moscow in December for the detectives. I mean, yeah, I'm not sure it's the most glamorous foreign travel that you get as a detective.

26:45Gordon:Well, and all the diarrhea they had.

26:47David:Yeah. I mean, it's memorable, but for the wrong reasons. And then they're made to appear before the Russian media at the end. They get the tapes of the interview because they'd not been allowed to tape the Lugovoy interview themselves. They get back to London, put the tape in the machine, and of course it's blank. There's nothing there. I mean, you're just like, oh, come on.

27:09Gordon:Now, Lugovoy in particular will come up with a lot of great and bizarre counter narratives in media interviews. and the main one is that Berezovsky, Boris Berezovsky, killed Litvinenko because the two had fallen out and Berezovsky had cut off his financial support to Litvinenko.

27:30David:It's interesting, that one, because that's the one they seem to push because, of course, the Russians want to blame Berezovsky for everything. He's the arch blotter. But there is this conversation which Lugovoy recalls that he had in Chinatown on October 17th with Litvinenko where Lugovoy says that Litvinenko tells him and Kovtude that Litvinenko admits to collecting dirt on people to blackmail them and make money including Berezovsky but with Berezovsky he'd have to do it through a cutout because he doesn't want to you know be exposed as the blackmailer and he says Berezovsky's still paying for his son's tuition now he's obviously got an incentive to try and pin this on Berezovsky and also have a motive for why Berezovsky and Litvinenko might have fallen out and it is true that the Litvinenko-Berezovsky relationship had been a little bit more fractious they'd had an argument in the summer maybe about security advice the money had been reduced from Berezovsky to Litvinenko but everyone says they'd actually made up after the argument.

28:35David:They hadn't fallen out. And Marina says the underlying friendship wasn't broken and they were still close. And I think what you're seeing there is the Russians throwing out theories, throwing out different possibilities as much as they can to try and confuse the picture, which is something we see later as a kind of Russian tactic.

28:53Gordon:And there are also some other giveaways, aren't there? Because after Linvinenko's death, Kovtun has a conversation with, of all people, his ex-wife's mother about the radiation poisoning that he himself is suffering from. And then when interviewed by the German authorities, his ex-wife's mother gives this account of the conversation. He told me that he had probably got some of the poison which killed Litvinenko. He said, word for word, those arseholes have probably poisoned us all. and it's it's a fascinating little turn of phrase because who are who are the arseholes the fsb it's the fsb right and that comment and frankly the lugavoy behavior in the bathroom with like the spilling and the towels and stuff strongly suggest that these two guys lugavoy and covtoon probably didn't know what they were dealing with they probably didn't know it was radioactive.

29:53Gordon:And so, what they were given by the FSB was probably told it's poison, put it in his drink, but they weren't told what they actually had. And so, they themselves are appalled at the risk that the FSB put on them. And in Lukavoy's case, I'm sure his family, it's a really interesting insight into how little information even the poisoners had about what they what they actually had in their vials yeah i think it is a really telling comment because it

30:23David:then you're right a lot of other things then make sense in the way you know wiping it up with towels you know look a boy introducing his son all of that makes sense if you think this is a poison that you're given and you're told has to be ingested in food hence needing the chef you know go finding the drinks all these things but you're not knowing that it's that it's radioactive and leaves a trail because they don't act in a way that would suggest they knew that but it would suggest they knew it was a poison but just not quite how deadly and how persistent it was so that i think i agree i think that that comment from covtoons ex-wife's mother is actually almost the ex-wife's mother that's the one to be that's the one to be worried about that's the one that really gives you away i do think it i think it you know it's it's very telling but yeah so by May 2007, the police, the Crown Prosecution Service say there is sufficient evidence to charge Lugovoy with the murder of Litvinenko.

31:25David:At that point, Lugovoy does a press conference denying it all. And he also at this point starts talking a lot more about having been approached by MI6. We talked about that earlier as one of the potential motives. And he's going to put that out there. It's interesting because at the time, I think most people thought, again, is this disinformation? Is it true? Could be disinformation, but it also, I think, is quite plausible as an element of truth for it. There's a warrant issued for his arrest. Later, there'll be one issue for Kovtun as well. But the problem is Russia says it won't extradite its own citizens.

31:59Gordon:So what does the UK government do, Gordon? What's the hammer that gets brought down on Moscow for murdering a British citizen with radioactive poison in the middle of London?

32:08David:Yeah, Thor's hammer is the mighty hammer of the British state is brought down for using radioactive material in London when the UK Foreign Secretary in July 2007 expels four diplomats. I mean, I have to say that is, you are right. You are right to be cynical, David. Gordon, Gordon, don't forget that MI6 cuts off its liaison relationship with the SVR.

32:38Gordon:too. So all of that, I'm sure just very juicy human intelligence that SIS was doubtless sharing with the Russians is cut off. Suddenly stopped. No, I'm sure there was very little of substance actually being passed. So that's cut off. And then I guess return Russia expels four Brits from the embassy in Moscow. And that's kind of it.

33:05David:It's crazy, isn't it? Don't you think?

33:07Gordon:It doesn't feel like a strong response to the murder of one of your own citizens at the heart of your capital. I think we'll talk more in our next episode about what were the options and what could actually be done. But I think for all we've been joking, it does raise some big questions about what you do. How do you actually respond to something like this in a way that is maybe proportionate or that is at least in keeping with the nature of the crime? It is a tough question, isn't it?

33:41David:Yeah, and we will get back to that in the next episode, I think, in the longer term. But I do think it is extraordinary and weak. I mean, maybe the argument is we've let the police do their thing. you know we've got charges out for these two guys but you still think it's obvious the russian state is behind this we'll come back to the evidence but everyone's worried in the in this period about al-qaeda and terrorists using weapons of mass destruction we've got to war with iraq over wmd and yet here you've got another state using a weapon of mass destruction in maybe not mass destruction, but a nuclear weapon in the sense of a nuclear poison against civilians.

34:21And the

34:22David:response is, it's just feeble, really. I mean, I do think it's shocking, actually, really shocking.

34:28Gordon:And do you think it was purposely weak? Because as we talked about in the first episode of the series, there's so much Russian money and influence in London in this period, that there's a desire to not rock the boat. I mean, I'm not sure there are good options, but there's probably better options than expelling four diplomats and cutting off what was already probably a somewhat weak sauce liaison relationship in response. It seems like there is more you could have done. British state chose not to.

34:59David:Yeah, I think the British state just didn't want to confront the truth of what had happened. So meanwhile, I mean, Litvinenko himself, A month after he dies, he's buried in a lead-lined coffin. It's such a detail, isn't it? Because of the radioactivity. Because they're worried about that still leaking. It's just extraordinary to think that they were still worried about the danger. And he's buried in Highgate Cemetery. I actually went to his grave earlier this year. Have you ever been to Highgate Cemetery, David? I have not. No. It sounds a strange thing on the tourist trail, but actually of London, but it is extraordinary because there's two wings to it.

35:41David:And one wing, you've got Karl Marx's grave, you know, and then another, you've got Litvinenko, but also these amazing, it's incredibly cinematic, actually, the ruins of some of the graves and these old mausoleums built for rich people in years gone by. But there on one of the paths is the grave for Alexander Litvinenko. So that's the investigation, but the story isn't quite over in trying to bring those behind it to justice.

36:11Gordon:Well, I think there, Gordon, is a good spot to end. When we come back for the final episode of this series, we're going to look at Marina Litvinenko's battle for justice, the other murders in Britain linked to this case, and whether Litvinenko was right. And we can point the finger for his murder at none other than Vladimir Putin.

36:32David:that's right remember you can hear that final episode right now if you're a member of the declassified club you can join at the rest is classified.com also hear the bonus episodes that we're going to do where we're going to dig a little bit deeper into some aspects of this story including the police investigation and do also sign up at the website for our newsletter but otherwise see you next time we'll see you next time