CARLO ANCELOTTI: Coaching the World’s Best, Five Champions Leagues Titles & The Truth About Jude Bellingham

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2:50Hello and welcome to The Rest is Football with me, Gary Lineker. And on this episode, we've got a very, very special guest indeed. A man who must have the biggest collection of silverware on the planet. He's the only man to win five Champions Leagues as a coach. Add to that two as a player. He's also the only coach to win titles in Europe's top five leagues. because it is, of course, the one and only Carlo Ancelotti. Carlo, thank you very much for talking to us. Thank you for the introduction. I'm really pleased to talk with you about football. Thank you. I know you've got a book out about your life in football and other things, so we'll give that a good plug.

3:37My copy only arrived this morning, so I've whizzed through it a little bit. I encourage people to get out there and buy it. The book is talking about my career in the Champions League. Talking about the finals that I played, that I managed. Fortunately, there were a lot of finals. I want to start this with actually the first time our paths crossed, which would have been the third place playoff in Italia 90. Yes. When you were a player and I was a player, and you'd been injured and you came in, I think you started that game. Yeah, I was injured in the first game of the World Cup against Austria.

4:15And after that, I had difficulty. I played some part of the game in the last 16 quarterfinal. And I played the final or third place. Of course, we were not happy because we lost a semifinal against Argentina at the penalty in Napoli. But I had a good memory of that World Cup. Describe to people, I mean, you were a very successful player and you played in that incredible Milan team for a few years. Describe to people that are perhaps a bit young on this podcast and haven't seen you play, what kind of player you are, obviously a midfielder. How would you describe your style of football? I think my football changed from Roma to Milan.

5:01In Roma, I was a midfielder box to box because my career started as number 10 when I was in third division in Italy. the academy in Italy I was number 10 and then when I went to Serie A as a professional in the first team I started to play in Roma box to box because I had on my side Falcao that was an old midfielder and Cerezo that was another midfielder box to box when I went to Milan I changed my position I played as an old midfielder in a system really clear with Sacchi that was 4-4-2 He was one of the two holding midfielder. One was another one. Sometimes could be Rijkaard and also Donadoni.

5:48That was not an holding midfielder, but defensively he was on the line. So my style changed. I was, I have to say, tactically really good. Tactically not fast. No, I was not fast player, but tactically really good. I could read well the situation above all defensively. I have to say that Sacchi teaches me a lot how to play defensively in that system. I think Sacchi at that time defensively was a really fantastic manager. What I learned from him in that period, that was at least 30 years, 35 years ago, is really actual también in the football today, talking about defensive aspect. You say a defensive aspect in that sense, but also what a team that was, wasn't it?

6:41I mean, just off the top of my head, there's Rykoch, Hullit, Van Basten, Beresi, Maldini. I mean, do you think that has to be one of the greatest club sides in history of football, no? I think so. I think so. It was a really fantastic team and was also a new style of football, I think, in Europe, because I think a team for the first time was really aggressive without the ball. Saki input inside the team a strong attitude defensively very aggressive offside line of course he did the fact that 90s when there was an opponent player offside was offside so we played a game I remember in Real Madrid against Real Madrid Real Madrid went offside 24 times yeah it was a fantastic team we won two Champions League 89 against Steaua, Bucharest and in Barcelona.

7:39I was at that game. I was in the stand. It was at the Camp Nou, wasn't it? Camp Nou where Gulli scored two, Van Basten two and then the year after we played against Benfica in Vienna and we won 1-0 and the Benfica coach was Ericsson at that time. Were you thinking, I mean you talked already about when you were on the field of play that you were tactical thinking, you read the game really well. So was that a natural progression for you to go into coaching? Was it something that you thought about at the time? Yeah, it was a natural progression also because when Saki left Milan to go to the national team in 1991, he said to me, Amibi, when you stop, I would like to have you as assistant.

8:24So the year after, he decided to stop and to reach as assistant the national team and the national team we prepared the World Cup of 94 where we reached the final against Brazil and I have to say these three years with Sacchi were really important for me because I learned a lot from me honestly I have to say Sacchi was a fantastic teacher in my opinion it's interesting isn't it that you were the number two for the Italian national team with Sacchi back then and they reached the final and obviously where they lost to the team that you are now coaching, the country that you are now coaching. Who would have thought back then?

9:03Who would have thought that eventually you'll be... It's unbelievable. It was a fantastic experience. We talk a lot about this because that national team of Brazil was not the national team with the big, big talent because they have, of course, talent. That national team that was Romário and Bebeto in front. But I think that they built that victory with a strong, strong defence. To have a really strong back four with midfielder, that helped a lot. Carlo, Carlo, you might need to do the same with this Brazilian team. I'm sure. I'm sure that the defensive asset will be the key to have success in the World Cup.

9:46Because always, Brazil had fantastic talent, fantastic quality. and you have to add to the quality in the modern football, a strong defensively attitude. I think in all honesty, it's probably not for you to say, but I can say that this Brazil, this current Brazil, doesn't have the superstars. We've got obviously Vinicius Junior, but they don't have many of the superstars like we've seen in many Brazilian teams. There is a lot of quality around the world. Around the world. We have a lot of players and my job has changed. we are doing now a lot of observation to the player in Brazil. The Brazilian players are everywhere.

10:25A lot of in the Premier League, but we have players in Spain, players in France, players in Russia. And we have a lot of players, of course, in Brazil. And so there is quality in the national team. And I'm sure that there will be always quality in the Brazilian player because I think it's genetic. It's genetic. the Brazilian players born with a lot of quality they live for football don't they it must be so exciting to lead Brazil into a World Cup special isn't it? special I'm really happy I think it was a good time to leave Real Madrid because it's obvious to say Real Madrid is in my heart but it's a great motivation to prepare the World Cup for Brazil taking in consideration that the last World Cup that they won was in 2002.

11:18Yeah, a long time ago. We are going to compete for sure. I'm really satisfied with the squad for what I have seen in this few months that I am here. I'm really satisfied. I have to say it's a different atmosphere from the club and the national team. What is the difference? The difference is that it's more difficult to build a good relationship in the squad between players because they have a different, first, different idioma different culture when they go to the national team the same idioma of course they talk all Brazilian the same culture and so it's easier to build from them between them a good relationship How about the expectation of the Brazilian football supporters because they expect a lot of their national team there's a lot of pressure must come with that The idea that I had before to come was the Brazilian supporters want to see a good football Not true.

12:15They want to win. I am unlucky. It's better to build a good team that plays good football than to build a team that is able to win now. Brazilian supporters, they are really passionate about the national team, but they want to win. They want to be back to win and to have a team solid that could compete. Well, we wish you all the very best with that. Let me go back now to your managerial career. I just wanted to talk about Brazil for a little while because it's such a big challenge. You play with and against so many great players and people love to hear about the great players. Diego, Diego Maradona, you would have played against him when you were at Milan against Napoli, of course.

12:59Yes. Is he one of the best? The best was the best. I played against Platini, different style. I played against, I don't know, Boniek. I played, but Maradona was at that period the top, top talent. Really talented player, I know, but really strong. With the contact, if you push a team, if you kick a team, he was really strong because he had a strong leg. Never complained on the pitch. I think, yeah, the best player. Yeah, it was a different game back then. You could just kick people as well and get away with it. I think football has changed. Now I think that there is more play between players than 20 years or 30 years ago when we played.

13:41So the strikers like you suffered much more tackle and bad situation than compared to now. It's for sure. I think that's true. And the law changes, obviously, as well. When you first went into coaching, Carlo, and obviously we've already talked about the fact you had a tactical mind and also the Saki influence. Did you change over time with your tactics? Because you seemed to start, I think, in the early days with the 4-4-2 and then you changed as you progressed. Yeah, I changed a lot. I changed a lot because I think when I started, I didn't have the experience to move in another system. So my first experience in Serie A was at Parma.

14:33In Parma, we started 4-4-2. We did well, but the year after I had the possibility to sign one of the best players in Italia at that time was Baggio. But Baggio wanted to play number 10 and I was not so comfortable to sign him because I didn't know how to put him in the squad. So I didn't sign him. It was a mistake because Baggio was a fantastic player. But after that, I started to learn when I went to Juventus, that I went to Juventus, I found Zidane, that was one of the best players of the team, that played number 10. And so I started to think to play in different systems. And after years, I understood that the system is not the most important part of the job.

15:24You have to find a system that has to adapt well to the players. Because the player has to be comfortable in the system. You don't have to put the players in a system that he doesn't like or to put a player in a position that he doesn't like. You have to be able to adapt the system to the characteristics of the players. I think that there is no winning system. And the system that you put in place has to be evolved by the players. You went to Milan, didn't you? And that was an incredibly successful period with just such a great, another one of the all-time great sides, I would say, that you built there, didn't you?

16:07You went on to win two Champions Leagues. And as you mentioned in the book, that ultimately was the dream. You did it twice as a player. And now to do it again as a manager, as a coach, that must have been one of the absolute highlights. Yeah, Milan was a great experience because I was a player there and I knew really well the atmosphere there. I know really well the board, the president. And Milan was a fantastic experience. They invested a lot because they signed a fantastic player, Rui Costa, Rivaldo. They signed Depirio Sedorf. They signed Pirlo. Shevchenko was there. And so they wanted to build a team with good players.

16:50And what we were able to do was to find a good balance in the team with top players. We played some games. We played with Pirlo, Sadov, Rivaldo, Rui Costa and a striker. I don't want to say we invented the Christmas tree, but in 2004, we played with one striker that was in Zagy because Shevchenko was injured. and I put in place two offensive midfielders. One was Rui Costa and another one was Rivaldo and three midfielders at the back. With midfielders, with quality, because Pirlo was the holding midfielder and Seyedorf was the left midfielder with only one Gattuso that was... The hard man. A Rottweiler.

17:38The Rottweiler. And also you brought... Kaka came to the club. Kaka came in 2004 after the first Champions League and I was really surprised because I didn't know honestly Kaká. The club signed to me Kaká and explained to me that he was a modern midfielder but I didn't know him and it was really true because Kaká, I think, in my opinion, was the first player with a strong physical capacity to play as number 10. Because usually at that period number 10 was a player with strong quality, but not so fast, not so physically strong. Kaká was, I think, the first one.

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20:27I mean you've coached so many great players and I'll come to that a little bit later but how is it difficult sometimes for a coach to control big egos superstars have egos is that as an important part the job is actually the tactical side of things. He's managing big players when perhaps they're left out or they're upset. The ego is an important part in the squad. Personal level, I don't know. I think it's important to have in the squad players with ego, but the ego, individual ego, cannot be more than what is the goal of the team. Two weeks ago in a press conference in Brazil, I said, and I agree with this because I said this and so on.

21:11I hope you agree with it then. I said, I don't want to put in the squad players that want to be the best player of the World Cup. I want to put players, they want to win the World Cup. And so the ego, individual ego, is important to reach the goal of the squad. And I have to say, it's not difficult to manage the top players because usually the top players are the most professional players. Because you have to be to get there. Yes, a serious professional. I can say one of the best professional players was Cristiano Ronaldo. Of course, yes. Big ego, strong personality. Another player with big ego and strong personality was Sergio Ramos, for example.

21:53But he's a good ego for the team. Do you apply, sometimes you treat people differently because of certain characteristics in them? So you won't treat every player the same way or talk to them in the same way? I try to talk to the player the same way and to treat them the same way. But for example, I don't want to explain to all the players the reason because they play or don't they play. But the player that is used to play, I have to explain to him. So I can treat the player that is used to play different from the player that most of the time is on the bench. I try to have a relationship with the person, not with the players.

22:30And so this is because if you ask to the player, who are you? They are used to say, I am a player. No, you are a person who plays football. So this is the difference that I want to try. Because sometimes a manager has to take decisions that are only professional decisions. But the professional decisions sometimes affect the personal relationship. example, if I put a player on the bench that I have a really good relationship with him, the day after is not going to say to you, hello. Why? Because I put him on the bench. But I put on the bench the player, not the person. It's not easy to understand for a player.

23:15Is that the toughest part of management, is leaving players out rather than picking players? Yes, it's the toughest part to manage the squad in this sense. Because, for example, this is a huge difference compared to the national team. Because I have to manage a player in a club, you have to manage a player for one year. The day that he's going to play, the day he's not going to play, the day he's sad, the day he's injured. In the national team, this doesn't happen. because if the player is not happy to come, I call another player. I don't have to manage this kind of things. I don't want to say it's more simple, but I think it's like this.

23:59And I don't have to manage injured players. And how many times you have to think to replace players that are injured. Above all now, the schedule of football is crazy. You have a lot of injuries. In the national team, you call the players that are fit. You managed obviously Real Madrid for two spells, two spells interspersed with one or two clubs elsewhere. What you did at Real Madrid on both times, you must be so proud of. Yeah, talking about Ego, I had the luck to find in the second period when there was Ronaldo and there was Sergio Ramos. I was lucky to find the team without Ego, for example.

24:45There were fantastic players like Modric, Casemiro, Tony Cross, Carvajal, Karim Benzema without ego. Really? Wow. We built a good connection between the young players that were coming out, like Vinicius, Rodrigo, Valverde, Camavinga. Of course, the club helped a lot because signed fantastic players, Bellingham, Gouler, Hendrik. And so we were able to build this kind of connection and to win to Champions League in a club that supports you a lot. Because Real Madrid is really a fantastic club and really the best club that I can compare to Milan, of course. But Milan for me is more emotional than other teams.

25:33This is obviously a predominantly British-based podcast. So you mentioned Jude Bellingham there. And there are concerns, people saying, question marks about Jude Bellingham here, because basically that's what we do. But I mean, what a wonderful talent. What's he like as a human being, as a player and as a person? I think Jude is a fantastic player. If I have to compare, we are talking about Kaka. He's this kind of player, really talented player, who is physically really strong. Fantastic to arrive in the box at the right time. He did really well. He's doing really well. And maybe he had a problem with his shoulder.

26:14With his shoulder, he was out for two or three months. Now he's back. No question mark. But why do you have to put question mark on Bellingham? I said the same thing because you've been in this country. You know what it's like. and we tend to do that to our players and they start to say, well, his behaviour off the pitch and his ego is too big. I mean, all the evidence I've ever heard from people that actually do know him says the complete opposite, that he's a great professional and he works really hard. No, I never had a problem with Jude about his attitude, that he's really professional, really serious, work hard in training, like all the English players does.

26:58and no complain at all. That's great to hear. I love the story in your book. I'd love you to tell it about how you went back to Madrid the second time. You were Everton boss, of course, where you'd been for a relatively short space of time. And then you called Madrid. Because the year before, I called Real Madrid at the same time just to know if they had players that could leave the club. And the year before, we signed James Rodriguez for Everton. and I call it the same period the year after and I asked them, I knew that they were looking for a coach because I maintained a good relationship with Real Madrid and I asked them, did you find a new coach?

27:44They said no, no. And I said to them, listen, you have to find a good coach for Real Madrid, not the normal one. What do you think could be a good coach? But I said to them, did you forget what we did in 2014? I could do this only for Real Madrid. I had a good feeling at Everton. I was really happy at Everton also if we had different team difficulties, but I think the start of that season was really good for Everton and I was happy at Everton. Honestly, good atmosphere, good training ground, good people, but I couldn't say no to Real Real Madrid. Real Madrid is Real Madrid. I know you've not got much time, so I want to talk about some of the players that have played for you, which, I mean, it's quite remarkable.

28:36Is there anyone you've not coached? Both Ronaldo's, right? Yes. Zinedine Zidane. Yes. Gareth Bale. The list is endless. I mean, I could go on and on and on and on. Sometimes they ask me to do my best line-up. Honestly, it's impossible. If you start, for example, goalkeeper. Yeah. Saying this, I forget someone, 100%. I said Peruzzi, and Dida, Peter Cech, Neuer, Casillas, Courtois. And I forget someone, Buffon. I had Buffon at Parma when I started. And so to choose the best one and the least of the strikers. Well, this was how I was going to actually do the question because I didn't want to say to you, pick your best starting line-up.

29:24But just to list, I was going to say, list your goalkeepers and your defenders. So give us some defenders. Some defenders we are in England. Of course, I have my heart for John Terry, for example. He was so good. I had Alex Carvalho. I had Japt Stam, Maldini, Nesta, Sergio Ramos, Pepe, Varane. Unbelievable. Yeah. Unbelievable. You played with and coach Maldini, of course. Yes, and Maldini's father was my manager when I was at Parma. Midfielders, go on, give us a list of midfielders. This is good. I like this. I like this. Pirlo, vabbè, Pirlo. Yeah, Pirlo. Savio Alonso, Tony Cross, Luca Modric, Casemiro, Lampard, Pallac, Essien, Chelsea.

30:18I had Arturo Vidal Sedorf Gattuso, Ambrosini Unbelievable It's not bad is it? And the list of forwards is ridiculous Ronaldo Miss only Gary Lineker I wouldn't have made that list I wouldn't have got even close You've basically managed every top stripe in the modern game which is absolutely fabulous I must ask before you go about Jabby Alonso and he's had a good start at Real Madrid. Xavi is a good profile. I was sure that he could be a fantastic manager, but he's a good profile of the Real Madrid. Did Real Madrid involve you in the decision at all? Did they ask for your advice on perhaps... I don't know if it works like that.