Defeat for Scotland and Cunha at the double for Brazil

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1:37Hello and welcome to the Rest is Football. On today's show, we've got Joe Cole, Patrick Vieira, Harry Maguire and the actor Asa Butterfield, who's a huge Arsenal fan and football fan. So much to discuss, particularly Scotland, of course, and Brazil were in action as well. And remember, if you want to watch, we're on Netflix every day.

2:03Unfortunately, the Scots couldn't build on their opening win. Shortly, we'll get into all of today's games. But first, Asa, welcome. Thank you. I hear you're a big Arsenal fan, but everyone's a big Arsenal fan now. I am a big, hey, hang on, I'm a big Arsenal fan. I always have. That's what they all say. Hey! Therefore, do you recognise him? Come on. Come on. Legend. Yeah, I was very excited when I heard you were here. Yeah, when did you know he was here? This morning. You didn't know until today? No. Kept the choir. First memories of Pat? You can call him Pat when you're on this show, by the way.

2:36Thanks, Pat. First memories, first Arsenal memories, FA Cup 2002, dyeing my hair red for the parade for Lundberg. Yeah. Yeah. We couldn't get Lundberg on the show. We had to... Yeah. With Pat. Now, I'm fascinated by your name. Asa Bop-Farr Butterfield. I know. That's an interesting one. You can thank my mum. Bop-Farr. What is Bop-Farr? Farr is my mum's surname, so that's fine. That's normal. Bop was... There was a comet in the sky when I was born called Hail Bop. Ah. And so that's that. And then Asa... My mum's a big hippie. Asa? I mean, it's an unusual name, but I remember a footballer called Asa Hartford, Scottish footballer.

3:21Scottish player. Yeah. I'm not named after him. You're not named after him. I'm not named after him. Asa Hartford, who had a hole in his heart. He did. That's right. Famous for it. Yeah. And still played. Yeah. It's impressive. My first impression of Pat, I played against him when I was 18. And it was like, it was two different species of footballers. It was centre mid. Yeah. And Harry Redneck was like, you're going up against someone today. He's a good player. A good player? I was like, I know. and I remember standing next to him and he was just a giant. It was incredible. So you actually arrived against him.

3:50Did you? Hardest game I've ever played. How did it go? Well, he won, obviously. Now, you've got a bit of footballing background here as well, didn't you? Surprisingly. In Soccer Aid, you've played in that. I'm actually an England goal scorer, believe it or not. I went to Soccer Aid three years ago and I'm not a good footballer. You ask any of my friends, I am not a baller. Don't pass me the ball. And I was like, Old Trafford, I get subbed on at half time to mark Usain Bolt. Personally, that's insane. And I didn't touch the ball for about five minutes and then we're attacking. Oh my God, this is one of the most insane things that's ever happened to me.

4:29I think I was probably the least likely person on that pitch to score a goal. But Scholes passes it to Wilshire. Wilshire sends me a cheeky little through ball. And I'm in. I didn't really know what I was gonna do with this. I had a cross there. I had the goal there. And I think that kind of helped. The fact that I didn't know where this ball was going to go. I don't think anyone else did. Leon Edwards, who was in goal, he didn't know where it was going to go. Where did it go? The back of the net. Wahey! The back of the net! Wahey! And it was insane! Good celebration. I blacked out. I actually don't remember.

5:01I remember seeing the ball go in the net, and then there's about 20 seconds I do not remember. And then I remember being with the team just celebrating. I mean, I do watch it back and I lose my mind. Perfect time to ask. Harry, what was your first goal for England? It's probably on the spot there. Come on, everyone remembers the first goal for England. I don't. You've got quite a few more than any other defender in English football history. First goal for England. What are you thinking, Joe? Your first goal? Free kick against Serbia and Montenegro. Top bins. Mine was Sweden. Yours was Sweden as well.

5:33In the World Cup, yeah. Oh, yes, header. Slab header. Quarter final. No, my first goal. Pat, your first goal for England. Your first goal for France. The first goal for France, I'm just like, I don't remember as well. Tough question, that. I think because we are used to score so many goals. Hang on a minute, I remember every goal for England that I scored and I was a striker. I mean, Craig, you don't score that many goals from midfield or the back, you can't remember. I can tell you the first red card, the first yellow card. I can tell you the first red card. Really, you can see your first yellow card but not your first goal?

6:07Yeah. Wow. Shall we talk about a little bit of football? Yeah. Scotland obviously played today against Morocco. Lost 1-0. I want to talk to you, Harry, actually, because I was a bit bemused about what happened for the first goal. Like the first minute, big game of the World Cup, playing against Morocco, you've won your first game and then they kind of try to play an offside trap. Grant Hanley. What was the thinking there, do you think? No, I think it'll be with some Grant's experience player as well he's not a young player he's played many times for Scotland so he'll be disappointed for sure Scotland come in really cautious to be honest especially in the first few minutes and they probably set up to get behind the ball be nice and solid and the last thing you do when you've been nice and solid is take a risk and I felt like he took a risk after one minute he took a risk and he's going to be sat in his hotel room tonight disappointed but they're still in a position where they can go through in the group so he's got to come back and I'm sure he'll perform the next game do you think they'd have perhaps settled No, not before the game, because you always think you get a point or something.

7:09But when they scored that goal for a minute, I'm sorry, I think, because goal difference might be important in this aspect, in terms of teams that finish third, which Scotland probably will, because they've got Brazil next. 1-0 is not too bad, I would say. Yeah, 1-0 is not a disaster. I don't think you would have said that. This is someone with a winner. We can't say this, Vapha. They're trying to win in the Scottish mindset. I don't know where this conversation is going, but I… We're thinking of… It's all relative. I mean, you played for France and Arsenal and you're winning things all the time.

7:37There was a corner in the last minute and I seen the keeper, Angus. He asked the manager to go forward and he was like, no chance, stay. I just felt that the goal that they conceded really reflect their performance. I felt that they didn't know if they had to go to check to try to win the game or they would just stay and try to get the draw. I think they were like, they didn't know what to really do on the field. And I think it was quite a really, for me from outside, a disappointed performance because you expect them to try to win the game. I felt that they were quite, no, we're going to stay here.

8:15There was a lack of intensity or just try to go and play. And I was disappointed by the performance. Where does that come from? Is that the captain that has to like instill that in the team? Or is that the manager that passes on a message? if they go down 1-0 when their plan is to fight for a draw, who gives them that? I think it's the way you approach the game. I think they concede the goal quite early. But if you concede the goal, even if you had a plan, the plan has to change because you try to score the goal at least to get the points. And I felt that they were quite satisfied with 1-0 done.

8:49So it's quite really strange because that's not quite a British way of approaching the game. So that's why I was more disappointed than anything else. You know Steve Clarke and you said he's a cagey, defensive sort of manager. Maybe it did come from him. Clarke, he's pensive, he's cagey. And I looked at him and I thought, listen, when you're Scotland, you have to set up with a good defensive plan because Morocco are better than you. Patrick, you probably played the only team in your career where you was the best, better team on the pitch. So I understand why they did it, but I just think they didn't look like that.

9:19The intensity was the thing that was lacking and the aggression that they had in the first game. So, yeah, it'd be disappointing for Steve and Scotland. Have we seen a breakout start at this tournament for Morocco? Bouadi in midfield. He was brilliant in the first game against Brazil. He's attracting a lot of attention from clubs in England as well. Arsenal being one of them, apparently. So he looks outstanding. He's always 18. He's brilliant, guys. The first two games, I think he's been the best young player I've seen in the tournament so far. Two things happened today. For an 18-year-old kid, the manager went over to him and the manager was talking to him, discussing things.

9:57For an 18-year-old kid, that's a lot of things. I was at Lille where he plays and I spoke to some of the guys, the physios, and there's been a lot of good players come through Lille, lots of good young players. And I was asking about him and they were like, he's as good as anything. We've seen him come through this system. He's like, just like, they said he plays like a senior player, which you've seen him now for two games. He's brilliant. Impressed you? Yes, really impressive. I think he's only 18, but he played like a 30-year-old player. He's got this kind of tactical awareness. I think he's always well-positioned and he's got this technical ability to play from the back and this really strong personality.

10:37I quite like the midfielder three from Morocco, but of course, he's the talent in this team. Let's hope you don't go to Arsenal then. A lot of the Moroccan, and it's not just the Moroccan team, a lot of teams in this World Cup have so many players that have a dual citizenship or an opportunity to play for multiple countries. I know, I think it's Diaz and Hakim both started in Spain. How hard is that decision to choose who you represent? We talked about this the other day, didn't we? It's a really good question. Yeah, it's a great question. I could have played for Ireland, but it would have been...

11:13My heart was always England, so it was never even a question. But I think if you get to that level where you're thinking, maybe I might not get to... Do you pick the better team or the one that you most... Where you feel. For me, it has to be where your heart is. And if you're not good enough to play for that team, then... So you're saying the better team, if you had... Or the one that you most connected to. Yeah, wherever my heart... I couldn't have put on another shirt of another country, even though I do have other heritage. Do you? Yeah. Well, it's one of the interesting things about this being a 48-team World Cup.

11:44Because there's an extra 12 teams, there's an extra 12 teams of representation. That's why I think there are so many of these smaller nations that have players from all parts of the world, and now they can play in the World Cup, which is pretty amazing. He wouldn't have been able to do that four years ago. Obviously, Alisse should be playing for England, shouldn't he? Well, Alisse... I think he felt that he had more chance of winning. I think he just thought he had more chance of getting in the team.

12:11I think that's quite really interesting. But I think there is as well... Because Brodie is quite a really good example because he played with the youth French national team. and then he decided to represent Morocco. And I think there's a new generation of young players who are going back quite really often to their roots. So they're feeling more connected compared to myself because I left Senegal when I was eight years old, grew up in France. Did you ever consider? No, not even in the... Since I moved to France, I went back to Senegal like 20 years after. So I never had these kind of choices to make.

12:48but Boadi I think on some of the new generation of young players they're going back to their roots more often so they're feeling more connected to Morocco and this is why I think he wanted to represent Morocco I just sort of think that Boadi's studying or doing a degree in mathematics or something he said it helps his football as well which is very impressive I want to ask you about Scott McTominay because obviously he's a Scotland star player it's not quite happened for him yet in this tournament but you obviously played with him Manchester United for quite a while I thought it was you know one of those PSR things where they sort of had to sell one of the best homegrown talents which is a bit difficult but did you see him because he's been so successful and so brilliant in Italy for Napoli did you see that did you want him to stay I really got on with Scotty he's a great person to have around the dressing room he's a big character a great leader and honestly if you train with Scotty I think everyone knows the ability that he has he can in five asides and things like that.

13:49He's always up there in the top goal scorers. But at Man United, he played a little bit deeper and he played deeper because to be number 10 at Man United, you have got to be the superstar. And I think Scott is a lot better player playing further up the pitch than he has been at number six. And he played number six at Man United a lot. I think he's a 10. You need him around the box. He's so clinical. He's so good around the box. I think you've seen in the second half, I think if Scotland were going to score, it were going to come from Scott. I felt like he was the one who was maybe, you didn't fault him today, but he makes great runs into the box.

14:19He's got great timing and his finishing is at a real high level. He's a top player. I knew that when he went to Napoli and he'd become the main man in the final position higher up the pitch. I knew that he did great well. Do you think it helps him being the main person and the big star? Definitely. I think a player of his personality and leadership, I know what he'll be like in the dressing room at Napoli. He'll be a big player there. I think when he went there, I knew he'd do well. I think a lot of the boys, I think all the rest of the teammates as well, knew that he'd go and do well. But it's hard when, obviously, we've got Bruno there in that 10th position and it's hard to it's very hard to move in my mind Bruno's so good just before we move on Morocco what is it 29 games unbeaten Ndouar Abbi as the coach do you think they've got half a chance yeah I think they're going to be a tough game for anyone and I think they'll improve I think they play the conditions well being an African side as well the way they move the ball they hold the ball and they were better than Brazil Brazil I think will come good as well so I think Morocco could do it This episode is brought to you by WISE.

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17:41Brazil, good shout. I mean, we expected them to beat Haiti, didn't we, Harry? Yeah, I think we expected them to beat them, but to be fair, when I watched Haiti against Scotland, they played well, to be honest. It was a tough team for Scotland. I felt there was a better side against Scotland in the majority of the game, but yeah, with Brazil's quality and they know that they drew the first game, they made a couple of changes. I don't know why my mate Matthias didn't play in the first game. Kunja? What's he like, Kunja? He seems... I mean, he's a good player, isn't he? Yeah, he's a good player. As a bloke, he seems like a lot of fun, I don't know.

18:10No, great bloke, great guy to have around the changing room, good personality, always smiling, joking around, but he has great ability. He's got something in common with Asa. Go on. Has he? He's scored at Old Trafford. Hey! So sorry. Have you scored, Pat? Old Trafford? No. Joe, you must have done. A few times, yeah. I scored my only goal of my whole career from outside the box at Old Trafford. I mean, I scored outside the box when you just dink the keeper. Who was the goalie? Top corner. Do you know, that's a really good question. I'd like to think it was Peter Schmeichel. I think it was because it was my last season at Tottenham.

18:42It must have been, yeah. Proper goalkeeper. Yeah, proper goalkeeper to score again, yeah. Brazil, do you enjoy? I mean, we all enjoy watching Brazil, don't we? They're great fun. And you've obviously got one of Arsenal's keepers. Yeah, we do. Gabriel. Yeah. And a few. Martinelli. Yep. Love seeing them on the pitch. I actually did an ad for Arsenal with Gabriel early in the year for a new app. I almost broke his nose. What? Yeah, we had a scene where we... I'm walking into a corner shop called The Arsenal. Arsenal Corners, you know, very funny. And he comes out and we sort of like almost run into each other and then we do this little jig, defender jig, I'm trying to get past him and they want to rehearse it.

19:21It's like, okay, we're in the dressing room, and I got to just rehearse this motion. Me being an actor, I like sort of getting quite into it. like I want it to look quite realistic. And I end up walking quite quick and getting really close to his head and he's like, sorry, you can't do that. You're going to break my nose. And so we toned it down a little bit. Was he all right about it? Oh no, he was fine. He was fine. Yeah, he was smiling. Patrick, can Brazil win this? Listen, it's just two games so far. Watching the two games, I think they are quite behind Argentina, behind France, behind England.

19:54And I don't think they will have enough to win the World Cup. Maybe with the next couple of games, they will kick on and be more stronger. But I don't see, I see a lot of individual talent, but I don't see a team playing well together. I think the result today, I can say, it's normal, I would say. I was expecting them, of course, to win the game, but they're still behind those three, four nations that I think they are more stronger as a team. I think Jodie agrees. Yeah, I fancy him. I'll give you three reasons. I think the average age was 30. I think experience at tournaments. I think with his hydration breaks coming in, I think having a great manager is going to be massively important.

20:33I think Carlo Ancelotti and them hydration breaks, I think he'll see something, he'll tweak something. And I think Vinicius, I think he looks like… What about the injuries to Rafinha? We went off, we don't know what he is. Obviously, it's massive. It looks like a twig at the hamstring. I mean, if it is, that's… I think it's the same hamstring when he was at Barcelona as well. He had quite a couple of injuries at the end of the season. Yeah, that's not look quite really good. But we've seen teams before start slow. Spain, 2010. Argentina lost to Saudis at the last World Cup. They went on to win it.

21:04Didn't your French team start slow in 98? Did you get out of the group? Straight away, we were strong straight away. Did you get out of the group? How can you win a World Cup? Did you get out of the group? I thought it was like, we use a lot of pressure on you to win in France in 98, obviously. But I remember thinking you weren't, wasn't, I think it was a Croatia game. No, the first couple of games were quite really difficult. I think you don't expect teams to be really quite strong on the first game. I think through the tournament you improve and you become quite really strong. But I think like watching England, for example, play, I'm more convinced that England have more chance of winning the World Cup than Brazil.

21:40Woo-hoo! No, but you know what I mean? I love it. No, but they're still behind France, of course. But what I want to say is that outside of Vinicius, I think this Brazilian team, there's a lack of pace, of power, especially if they lose Rafinha. I think there's something that they are not connected yet. He may not come later on, but I'm not convinced regarding the last two games that they played. There's a lot of noise outside. I think the Brazilian fans are out there disagreeing with you. Speaking of great managers, like Ancelotti, I've got a question for you, Pat. I have to ask you this. What was and is Arsene's best quality?

22:14Why was he such a great manager? I think the good side of Arsenal was that he gives you the freedoms to express yourself when you're on the field, especially when you are a young player. Because when I was at Arsenal, I was around 20, 21. And you can make mistakes, but he's always give you that kind of confidence and belief. And I think when you're a young player, it's quite really, really good. In the backside of it is that we had such a strong, good team, but we never managed to win the league back to back. We never managed to win the Champions League. and I think it was a little bit lack of demanding on us even more.

22:50Really? So it's Wenger's fault? It's Wenger's fault, yeah. The squad that we had. But no, what I want to say is, I think you work under Jose Mourinho. Yeah, yeah. And Mourinho, I think, is more demanding on his players, individually and collectively. And I think Arsene didn't have that on him. Fascinating. He has a really good side. Yes, because we were playing well, we were playing badly, we knew that we were going to play the next game. You know? Mourinho, if you don't perform, you have a good chance to be on the bench. So the pressure was quite different. But talking about Arsene, when you are young, he will communicate really well with you to give you that confidence to go on the field and to express yourself.

23:33So there's a good and a bad side. Do you know what? That's really interesting because I met Arsene. I worked with him on the TV with me and Glenn Hoddle and we were working with him and Glenn played for him. in Monaco and I had breakfast with him it was like a university of football listening to them talk about different players and I'm just sitting there having me scrambled eggs going this is brilliant but Arsene was like he still was speaking to Glenn like Glenn was his player he was like Glenn how's your knee? He had a knee injury and he knew everything about you know Glenn and I think he only played for him for two years but he had that sort of like father figure even for Glenn Hoddle do you know I think Glenn Hoddle was the greatest England player I've ever seen I'm just sitting there at this breakfast thinking just trying to absorb Glenn was so good.