Emma Hayes & Joe Hart on Tuchel questioning England’s DNA

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1:37Alan Shearer:Hello and welcome to The Rest is Football. Did you miss us yesterday? Of course you didn't. Well, the big one is upon us. England versus France in the third place playoff. Oh, and of course, the final. Alan and Micah are back from Atlanta. Plus, we've got Emma Hayes and Joe Hart here in the studio. How are we all? Oh, great. All good, thank you. Nice to see you guys. How are you doing? Good to be here, mate. Good to be here. We're not on set with that one second delay and Mike is just screaming at the TV. Have you been traveling around? I've just come back from Atlanta, like these guys, but enjoyed it.

2:10I can't say enjoyed it, suffered it, endured it, but incredible stadium in Atlanta.

2:17Alan Shearer:Yeah. Not so much the game. I understood this. Mikey, once again, you've been pictured with famous friends. I've seen it. And did he post it, didn't he? I've seen it. Who stomps it? Somebody did. I've seen it. No, it's what I roll now.

2:31Gary Lineker:I roll in the highest of circles now. What did you do? DM them as well? I'll DM them. Stomps it, I took another picture, please. Some combo, that, innit? Yeah, it was nice. Did he know who you were? Of course he did. Bullshit.

2:49Alan Shearer:Alan you got your flight back okay?

2:52Gary Lineker:Well yeah just actually it was really weird because I got on the flight and sat there and everyone's coming on the planes full and then they come on and said we're delayed we've overbooked by 14, they downsized the plane the night before and there were 14 people that I'd sort of checked in so then they come down come onto the plane right guys excuse the American accent Go on, yeah. Right, guys. He said, we need at least 14 people to get off this plane because they've checked in. And it was like, no one budged. So they came back and they said, right, guys, we're going to offer$1 ,000. Hotel, food, alcohol, all free.

3:35Gary Lineker:No one budged. They came back and said, we'll offer 1 ,500. I don't know what's the last thing. And then no one budged again. You must have experienced this on the place. And then they come back again and said, well, for$2 ,000? I'm thinking, if they go to$2 ,500, I'm getting up. Then no one moves. And then they go to$2 ,250 and eventually two people get up and say, yeah, we'll swap. And it was like, God, I've never seen this happen before. If that had gone to$2 ,500, I was off. I was staying in Atlanta for the night and taking a two and a half grand.

4:14Alan Shearer:Joe, it's good to see you. Good to see you too. It'd be nicer if it was under better circumstances, but it didn't happen for England. Honestly, it was so close, but yet it was so far. I think the first kind of 55, 60 minutes, it was a ding-dong. It was so aggressive. We were all on the edge of our seats, not knowing what the referee was involved. Every single player, every single action had a reaction. It was really... And then obviously Gordon scoring that goal. And then Messi and his team just got bigger and bigger and England just kind of shrunk. And they just felt like, it felt like panic setting.

4:50I don't know what you thought. Yeah, I mean, I just think once Scaloni made the first chess move after the goal, that for me was the biggest blow because he instantly, not just when Gonzalez came in, he pushed the team up.

5:02Gary Lineker:Yeah. And once, you talk about four against the back line, it was more than that. He had six up against them. Then it was react to what Scaloni was doing and then, of course, enter the genius, which is Messi. And I think with the pool coming on, it allowed Messi to go out wide on the right. And that Argentina are a team that are a death by a thousand cuts.

5:25Alan Shearer:Yeah. I'm going to go into depth shortly, but first I want to read Thomas Tuchel's quotes that he's most recently said. He said, in this moment, this is obviously after they went 1-0 up, in this moment, my feeling was no structure in the world could have helped us because actually we were too passive and we were not physical enough we didn't stop runners arriving in our box right after the goal the momentum swings completely and ball possession drops dramatically we couldn't find any jewels anymore that's why we dropped deeper and deeper and it was never the plan but it happened you need to get back on the ball otherwise you cannot break the pressure and you cannot get the momentum back and i just want to go on to one more quote.

6:09Alan Shearer:I think ball possession plays a crucial role. It's maybe not in our DNA, like it is in Spanish DNA or in Argentinian Brazilian DNA, to take the ball and control the game with the ball. Those quotes are nonsense, are they? I've been talking and singing phrases of Tuga all tournament. I've basically said he's been very brave. We were talking about it should have took Cole Palmer, it should have took Foden, it should have took Trin. I like the fact that he doesn't listen to and he's directing what he wants to do. But then you hear these quotes and he says, you've got no one who can get on the ball and control the game.

6:47Well, Cole Palmer can do that. Foden can do that. And Trent can do that. Cobby Mayne. Cobby Mayne can do that. Wharton can do that. So I feel as though he's passing the blame when he should just be taking responsibility. I felt like that was a fair appraisal of the game, of someone who didn't have the control to change the game. So that was someone who, it felt like he'd watched the game and gone, Fucking hell, they couldn't get control. But his job is to be in the game. I don't know when you're on the side. His job is to be in the game.

7:15Alan Shearer:Can I ask one point that you said? No structure in the world could have helped us. You're a coach. You know what, I'm sitting here, I'm thinking. It's like whack-a-mole from the touchline. And when you've got... And I'm sitting there in line with... In the Argentinian half. We score. First action. We go down the other end. square ball turnover, they transition, get behind Jed. Our next set of actions, behaviours for players was to drop deep. That was not coaching-led. Anthony Barry was up, pushing the team to get up, to get out. Then, of course, you got the opportunity in hydration breaks. He chose not to change the personnel in a radical way because it would have involved taking off our top two players, potentially.

8:02And I think he was caught in a position where he was constantly reacting to Scaloni's moves. And so I do agree with him that when you've got six pinning your four, it was inevitable we would go into the five. But it was because Scaloni got the first punch every time. That was the difficult part.

8:22Gary Lineker:But do you think then part of the issue was, is that if you're going to go further and further back, which they did, he makes his changes. But also, you've got guys who are totally shot up front. I mean, Harry's legs are gone. That was clear. He would have been far better off bringing someone with some legs on rather than another defender because at least you've then got an outboard. He's got to live with that, and he will. He will be processing. That will hurt him, yeah?

8:49Alan Shearer:His whole thing before the tournament is, if we're going to lose, we're going to lose our way. We play aggressive football. We're going to play attacking football. And then he went completely against everything that he took. But it's a functional group. We call it functionality in terms of players and profiles that are more, I think, conducive to the French style that have got top individuals. And then you've got the two teams that are in the final that are the best collective teams. Yeah, I agree with that. And we're not there with that yet. But I will also say we have a tendency to say, oh, that didn't work, tear it up, sack him, he's not elite.

9:22Listen, we've been in top semi-final finals over the last six, eight years. We have to ask the question, What's missing? What is missing? And I'm telling you, it felt like there was a mental framework in terms of the players, whether that's whatever. And sometimes it can just be the combination of things. How do you change that as a coach? You know what? So when he talks about DNA, I keep thinking to myself, what is it? You know this. Spain and their players developed methodologically to play a certain way from the age of eight, ingrained in tune with that. Argentina, it's ingrained in them that we play as a collective, as a brotherhood.

10:04For us, I think there are things we still have to add because we haven't won at senior international level. And I think crossing that line is often the hardest one. And I think when, I hope, we get into that position, perhaps that will change.

10:20Gary Lineker:But wasn't he brought in to change that, to do that? Do you know what? His words when he took the job were, we're more than happy to take that on and not accept defeat, but go with it. He was the one that was brought in to get us through those semifinals. I'm not disagreeing you. The two coaches that are in the final, two coaches that have been with their team for extended periods, Del Fuente for many, many years, Scaloni two cycles. You get these players for no more than 15 games a year, something about 35 sessions a year. it is not club football it takes time and we have to invest in that I always thought and I

10:59Alan Shearer:you'll remember back of going back a few years I I wanted Lee Carsley and Ashley Cole to carry on because they'd done exactly what De La Fuente had done with Spain that's why I say we do have DNA and Scaloni had done with Argentina of course we have DNA of course we have and I think it's quite insulting for him to suggest that we don't have DNA of players that can pass the ball you know I'm going to challenge I'm going to challenge At what point did anyone really ask him, what does DNA mean to you? Because we're making assumptions on that the same way as he challenged the conversation around mentality.

11:32The reference I think he's talking about are the very things that are missing from our team. What's our DNA, Joe? It's definitely changed over the years, hasn't it? It's definitely changed. It's definitely improved in terms of when you look at the players in our national team. Our superstars are at Bayern Munich. They're not just English-based. We got Real Madrid, obviously Trent wasn't picked, but Jude was there. So people are willing to travel the globe and be picked by these superstars. But I just think on the Thomas Tuchel point, and I agree with you, Emma, you know, I think that press conference is so important today because I'm going to reserve my judgment on him until this moment, until he speaks, because it's very difficult, I think, on the night to have a fair appraisal.

12:12We were in the stadium, and I know it's everyone's job to do certain things. Raw still, yeah. But there's no doubt that there was a lot that went on when they're all. It was emotional, it was bodies on the line, decisions he definitely wouldn't have made in hindsight. Of course he wouldn't. But I think it's really important how he interviews today. Yeah, I agree with you there. For his future, for how he interviews today. Because if he tries to justify how it went, then we might have a problem.

12:34Alan Shearer:I think one, perhaps to be clear, I think nobody has an issue with the players' commitment. I think they work their socks off. No, it was brilliant. Absolutely Brazilian. And you guys know more than ever, you know, than anyone how difficult that can be and how challenging that is and we we're talking about margins here that this the country has been able to get to the latter stages we just need to learn

12:59Gary Lineker:how i think if you've got like like 96 and like 98 the tournaments that i played in if you as a player come out of a tournament and say we've given our very best here we've worked our nuts off for six or seven weeks and then that's i think that's more than acceptable and i think that's the case with all of them. Well, I did an interview quite soon after for the radio and my back went up immediately because how disappointed are they going to be? Were they the right changes? And I was thinking are we going to give any respect to the team that's beat us here? We're talking about the teams with World Cup medals, something that we haven't achieved.

13:40They've won Copa Americas galore. They've got the greatest player ever on the planet. I'm not saying that we should bow down to them but let's calm down when we're looking for blame here. And sometimes you've got to credit the fact that it was a hell of a ding-dong. And then when the real, when the big moments came, the Argentina got bigger and we struggled. But can I just add to that, though? Because you're a manager, Emma, and I always like to get in the, your thoughts and what you're thinking on the sidelines. So you mentioned Scaloni and you mentioned Tuchel. Tuchel's supposed to be an elite manager, isn't he?

14:09So surely he should be proactive rather than reactive? Listen, they were. I was watching the benches. Instantly Scaloni went, concede a goal, front foot. We tried to get our players on the pitch. You could see it. There was an attempt by the coaching staff to do it. The question I'd ask is, would you do anything differently? What would you have done? Truthfully? Differently. This is what we want to know. I felt we needed fresh legs. Correct. Especially in the front areas. But the challenge of all of those things is because Messi had peeled out wide, now you're going to ask a forward player to deal with the overload that they've got there.

14:49It was the fact that they'd created that situation. So I think he did deal with that, but Scaloni said, we've got nothing coming on your right-hand side. We'll take our left back out. Then it pinned us even further. So I think... I don't want to say it's shit or bust in those moments, but the hydration break, I think if he had it again, he might do something differently again, and that might involve taking some of the front players off.

15:17Alan Shearer:Joe, can I ask you about Pickford in goal? He's got a bit of stick for the first goal and it's been exacerbated by the fact that Bellingham was caught saying it was in the middle of the goal. Goalkeepers' thoughts, please, because I think he was pretty unsighted, even though it wasn't. So the reason why a lot of people, now that Jude's shown the world, that it wasn't in the corner... Would you have had the hump with him for that? I'll tell you what, one thing that I struggled with as a teammate, and Meeks will just, I'm a calm, nice guy, I want everyone to do well. I want everyone to do well. But when I, there were moments as a goalkeeper, and I didn't realise I had this in me, but when I was very young, someone in a League Two game for Shrewsbury Town, one of the centre-halves, I didn't come for a cross, maybe I should have.

16:00Yeah. Say to me, I'm talking to you as me, come for the fucking cross. I'll go, absolutely no problem. When someone starts going like this to the crowd, red mist. I'll fight anyone because that's not a teammate in my opinion. Now, I did not love what happened there. I get it's emotional, I get Jude wears his heart on his sleeve. But when it comes to moments like that, I'd rather one of my teammates stand over me and say, save the fucking ball, than gesticulate to the crowd. Because, well, it's who he is and it's what makes him who he is. But that's not helping anyone because that actual action, because now we want the perfect world where Jordan Pickford's standing in the middle of the goal and anything in the corners he can get to.

16:46There was five, six, seven bodies that he's trying to... That's my point about the collective. Argentina can see there's no fingers pointing. It's the collective approach to get up. Honestly, Emma, that made my chest tight after the game because I'm with Jude for the cavalier way that he brings it on. But you can't have 11 of those in the team. I've said that and you know I would have struggled. It's a little bit hard, though, because we've had moments together where we've played together, and the frustration in the moment... You throw up your hands. I remember he once turned to me and said, you know what I mean?

17:20Don't you effing do that to me? But we know how Jude is. We know he's a total winner. He didn't need to do it because he's sort of hanging his mate out to dry a little bit, but it's just in that moment when you want to win something so much, I just remember throwing my hands up and you absolutely saw him.

17:37Alan Shearer:I suspect he didn't do it for the count. No, he didn't. He's done it just out of exacerbation. What I'm saying is I'm not saying he's wrong. No. I'm not saying Jude's wrong. He's free to do whatever he wants. But if you want my opinion of how that would have made me feel, and who's to say I'm right? Who's to say Jordan's right if he wouldn't have been happy? I always say to players with situations like that, you have to ask yourself the question, is it helping the team win? And if it's not, then think differently or behave differently. I think the missed opportunity in the game was the commercial break.

18:08Alan Shearer:I like to call them that rather. It was the commercial break. He had three minutes there and he could already see we were back, back, back and he didn't choose to make a change at that point. He latterly brought on, obviously... Sure, but he might very well have made a tactical change, but being able to action it is what didn't happen if that was the case. I agree, it would be interesting to see his reflection on that. I think it's really important. because sometimes you don't have to make personnel changes to make tactical changes. But for whatever reason, for me sitting there live, it felt like we were just retreating, even against the wishes of the manager.

18:49Let's have it right, though. He got his tactics wrong, didn't he? He got his tactics wrong. I was a fan of him. I was giving him the big build-up. This is why we want Tukul. He'll make in-game substitutions. I mean, Scaloni himself said he was really surprised

19:04Alan Shearer:at what he did and he smelled blood. Take some responsibility. You got it wrong. You move on. You look at where you could improve and you go as a team to move forward. That's why today's important, Mix. Yeah. Because I think... Do you think he needs to own it today? Own it, my... Say, I got it wrong. Even just say, I got caught up in the moment. Everyone makes mistakes. Or if they're a stronger team as he's talking about, I think he's able to say, as Emma's saying, I didn't ask the boys to do that. That's what happened. So that's what we went with because they're on the pitch and there's only so much I can do.

19:32But I want to know... I want to know whether it was a him decision the boys' decision, because I'm not going to hold it against them because they were under siege and they were mentally scrambled. And it's not for a lack of trying. No, never. The issue is the execution piece, and that's why I talk about mental frameworks, because if you're instantly thinking, oh, they've broken, we've just conceded a chance, let's sit a little bit lower. You don't even always say it out loud. It's your body language. It's taking two steps backwards. All of those things that happen in line. I think England just missed one man on the pitch just being able to stand up and just say, from that centre-half or whatever position, just say, Harry, fuck off.