Terry Butcher: Invisible Wounds 

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2:36Hello and welcome to The Rest is Football with me, Gary Lenica. And today, may I say a very special guest. I've seen you for a few years, former teammate with England. We played in two World Cups together. I think he played in three. He's had an extraordinary career and life. And I think the thing that makes me most happy about having Terry Butcher here is that finally I've got someone that's older than me. Terry, a warm welcome. Thank you very much. Lovely to see you. And you as well. You're looking well. How are you getting on? Yeah, we're doing okay. I'm just busy promoting the documentary that we've got out.

3:18But I enjoy it. it's so different to football in the way the documentary is let's tell everybody what it is exactly it's a documentary of your life and it's going out on the 7th of June couple of days 10 o 'clock at night and that's on ITV4 and then thereafter it will be distributed on ITVX I love the title of it tell us what the title is the title is Butcher I took a lot of thinking that one not that Butcher Invisible Wounds which is sort of would baffle people if they didn't know my career but obviously the stories about my son and about what he went through as well so you've got sort of my career to start you know it's initially I didn't know how Stuart Burley he's George Burley's son so he knew our family he grew up with our family in many respects went on holidays together so he knew Chris he was my son and it's very fitting very nice from our point of view that he's the direct and he's the big force behind it so it goes out and the start of it is me with the bloodied head and sort of thing I had to come in somewhere and then it's about him it goes close to him straight away so it's not just one half and then one half.

4:37For those that are not aware you tragically lost your son he was obviously a soldier in the army and it's It's a very, very moving and poignant documentary, I have to say, Terry. I'd just add to you, I don't mind admitting that, watching it and knowing you as I know you. How difficult was it to decide actually to make it in the first place? Well, I didn't want to do it because I don't like seeing myself on TV. I don't like seeing what I've done through football. I don't like hearing myself. Why? I'm not going to listen to this. No, no. I don't like it. I just get embarrassed, I think. And particularly what you said and all the other guys in there, Alan Brazils, Russell Osmonds and Ali McCoy's, some lovely people.

5:24What he told me, Stuart Burley, was that it's going to be different and there's a real story to tell there, not just on the football. It's not just a documentary about me playing football. I started and I finished sort of thing, that career. If anything, football has given me a platform where I can get to people or get to companies or whatever quicker because of that. people know roughly about me you know what what my career was and all that bloody health business and all that sort of thing but there is a big story to tell here not just on me but for my son and for veterans and that's why I wanted to do it and I wanted to we wanted to to have a charity when he passed away in his honor um and honor his memory but it was just so complicated and so much to do that we decided you know that we'll put it on the back burner and then see if we go back to that but we never did and then a company called combat to coffee came up and that's an ipswich run it's run by nigel seaman who's a veteran and he suffers from ptsd exactly what my son my son did so i've got involved with them i'm now the patron and i and i love it because it's given me a purpose it's given me a challenge because you know what football's like there's a challenge every game you play in a challenge every club you're at particularly with england as well and I didn't have that, I was missing that so this has given me a real it's like a cathartic sort of situation where I really enjoy doing it and it makes me want to do it and raise awareness of veterans and their families and how they can help themselves so you have me at the start, then you have Chris and then you've got my career and then you've got tragedy and then you've got hope at the end and that's that message of hope, that hope that comes through.

7:07It must have been incredibly difficult to live through. I still find it difficult to talk about him but this has been easier a lot easier and doing this documentary I can talk about him for a much much longer period than I ever thought I would do and I couldn't say anything at the start and it's when you speak to people so strangers they ask you how many children have you got you know I would say three three boys and they say oh where are they now and then well two one's here and one's there and the other one passed away and then it's it's a conversation stopper because they don't know what to say and I don't blame them because it's it's what it is but then they I would like them to continue and just say oh what happened and then how was he what was he like as a person and all that sort of thing start talking about him because that really that helps my grief that helps me not to become used to it but to actually then be at ease with it a lot more as well because it's been it's been tough and it's been difficult but it is grief is and they say it's good to talk Terry it's good to get these things out isn't it I mean otherwise what do you do you keep everything inside well we know what we're like not as much footballers but as men we bottle it up and we just say I'll cope I can manage this we'll handle it but there are times when you can't and there's been quite a few times so things will trigger you and all that sort of thing which I think is nice you know the songs that he played at his wedding the phrases that he used the mannerisms and things like this I mean every night I go up the stairs and I just say goodnight to him when I go into the bedroom and that's that's pretty emotional but I just I've become used to it now and it helps me things like that Rita's in the documentary your wife yeah it's lovely to see her I haven't seen her for so many years did you both handle it in different ways no it was still the same we handled the grief initially because some people like to talk about it some people don't I mean I remember when George was ill my son thankfully he survived it when he was a baby and Michelle's never been comfortable talking about that circumstance and how close he was to his life but I needed to talk about it so we were different but you and Rita pretty much similar yeah very similar we didn't get help there's no therapy there is a therapy out there but we just felt well do we need it now we'll plot on and carry on and bury it and but you know you you get to a point when when you actually feel that i can talk about it more and that just takes time but to do this has been cathartic and it's been very helpful for us um and yeah she didn't want to be on there she's quite shy so she didn't want a nightmare what are people going to say and all that sort of thing i just said look you know just tell it from the heart because it's a story and it's a great story a tragic one but it's a great story so do it so he was very good it's very moving it really is and I had my sons came in as well yeah and then we we had our grandchildren as well that was really nice because it seemed to me the grandchild happened during the making of it your first grandchild was it Little Austin yeah so the kind of news was broken to you during the documentary oh yes that's a great that's a great lovely little bit but the whole film is not only about tears no no no laughs in there.

10:31Of course there is. He's Terry Butcher. The audience I have for the Premier, they laugh when you mention your hat trick against Poland. Typical Gary. But it's brilliant. But there's a lot of laughs in there as well. Yeah. And obviously at the end there's lots of hope too. But I think it was Emily, obviously my daughter-in-law, she was taking a picture of us two, me and Rita and our son Edwin. And then people would see it and it's, I think it's fully 14 seconds before I actually realised. It did take a while. It did take a while. But you are a centre-half. She was pregnant, yeah. Yeah. It does take a lot of time, you're right.

11:08It's getting worse, Gary. No, it does. It's getting worse. Well, you've never headed the ball, did you really? So you're not going to be like that. I tried to avoid it. I tried to avoid it. Shall we talk a bit about football? Yeah. Yeah. You had an amazing career. I mean, I played against you. Oh, I know. I played with you. I know. I mean, first time I remember playing against you when you were Ipswich. And when Ipswich, you were a bloody good side. Bobby Robson was the manager, later managers for many years with England, of course. It was quite interesting, the documentary. There were times where you didn't think you were going to make it.

11:38Lots of times. In fact, I nearly gave it up early on in my career because I was too nice. I didn't kick people. It was nasty. Hang on a minute. Hang on a minute. There was a time. There was a time you were definitely a nice bloke. I know that. That's a fact. But on the field, I was too nice. Yeah. Were you? Well, I tried to kick you because you always ran away from me and scored goals. I ran away from you with fear. Well, I don't know what it was, but you were too quick for me. So I had to try and knock you down. But yeah, I was just a gentle giant on the pitch. What changed you? Well, the coaches changed me.

12:12Bobby Ferguson in particular. He was the number two to Bobby Robson. Yeah, he called me all names under the sun. It was a make or break situation. I was in two minds to give it up. I spoke to my parents and my mum said, look, give it up and go to Trent Polytechnic where they were holding a place for me as a quantity surveyor, but I haven't a clue what a quantity surveyor does. And my dad says, no. My dad says, carry on. He says, you can carry on and show them. They survey the quantity of headers that you provide. Quantity surveyors. I'm not going to go with quantity surveyors. I haven't a clue what they do, but it was outside apparently, and I thought, well, I'll take an outside job.

12:47I think you made the right decision. I think I did, yes. I think you probably did. and you made you there's a lovely bit in the doc where and again I can relate to this because something similar with my dad when you were thinking of going to study in quantitative surveying that your dad had a word with the coach the coach yeah yeah and said we're thinking of doing this what do you think he went no he's going to go all the way to the top yeah that was a lovely moment but your dad didn't tell you that years later on no it's like the same thing with my dad he was actually on his deathbed my dad like 10, and we had the really meaningful conversations, probably for the first time in our life, because, you know, again, our generation, the older generation, they never share their emotions and stuff like this.

13:32And he, and he, and he, and he said to me, he said, you know, he said, I always knew you were going to do it. Oh, I said, well, he could have told me. I know. It's the same. And he was like, wow, that's the same. Yeah. That's really nice. When my dad used to say that, you know, you were, you know, you thought you were great today, son. He would tell me after that. He wouldn't go over the top, but he would tell me. And I would always say, no, I wasn't. I could have done more. You know, I've just had that reaction that I wanted to play the most perfect game of football, which you were never going to do.

14:02But my standards and everything else that he taught me, I had to get rid of them when I first came to the club and be a professional. Like shake hands of a player on the pitch when I kicked them and all that sort of thing. No, no, no, you've got to get that out of the window. but it was nice that he did go there because I reassured him, my father but he never told me and he just let the natural course run and I was determined and I played a reserve game and Bobby Ferguson was the coach I got taken off at half time because I'd kicked it came to a point when I thought I've got to be aggressive so I kicked every member of the opposition I think the referee as well and he said I've got to take you off because you're going to get sent off and that was the best thing for me because then I realised I don't want to be taken off at half time anymore I want to last the game but if I can play a little bit like that like I have done and temper it a bit let me get this straight right so firstly you're not aggressive enough yeah firstly then you're too aggressive yeah and then you found the middle of the game yeah okay yeah I think I've got it we've got to talk about Bobby Robson right yeah what team he got together there at Ipswich I mean you know people talk about Ipswich provincial club Suffolk you know they're not a giant it's like Leicester in many ways we had our moment and Ipswich's moment was really your time wasn't it I mean won a European trophy you had so many you played alongside Russell Osmond I know Russell really well he's in the documentary as well at the back you've got so many good players you have the Dutch midfielders Muren and Tyson Muren and Tyson yeah but he was one that he was there obviously a long while at Portman Road and he built teams and then dismantled them built another team he's done that all over Europe all his career and I was at a good time then because just before me four, five, six years before I joined the club the club were in some cup semifinals and they're in Europe as well and all that sort of thing so it was yeah, he set a really good standard but you know Bobby he was like you should get your name wrong and things like this I mean people can't I mean people think you're exaggerating and there was some of the stories there's the lovely one in the documentary about you cutting his grass or it's kind of walking his dog yeah you walked his dog for him yeah that's why I was on the England team yeah and then he walked his dog into my house he was talking that much about football when I had to say Bobby you don't live here and he looked around and he says no I don't I'll see you tomorrow and then he walked out because he was crazy I mean he's remember when he first came he was he was or when you first came into the England squad everyone he was saying is he always like this because they didn't they they weren't used to this to how he behaved and what he did and his beliefs and everything else but once you once you got to know him he was just he was just incredible he really was he was you know you go through a brick wall for him yeah and he was loyal and honest as well and he was he was super intelligent as well and his interests went way beyond football I think the reason he get into these pickles and names things because he had so much going on in his mind he did probably he did my favourite my favourite I actually worked with him on television a few years after and he was as a one-off and he came in came in the studio and he's going I've lost my phone.

17:13I've lost my phone. Okay, Bobby, we'll have a look. Everyone's looking around the studio. This phone rings, right? So you can hear it going, and he goes, and picks it out of his inside pocket. And he goes, hello? He said, hang on, I'll call you back. I'm just looking for my phone.

17:35I swear that he's true. I mean, it was one of the things that I think made you, made us all love him so much and that thing that you wanted to play for him but you don't want people also to think that he was a fool because no he's far from it he was a really intelligent guy he was brilliant tactically and great motivator as well wasn't he yeah he dropped the odd word in here and there and it was his actions that sort of made us love him I think there was a story about him when he was in a TV studio covering another European Championship or World Cup and in the background was a sort of drop of Paris Eiffel Tower and Bobby comes I think that tournament was held in Holland or something like that and he came into the studio and he looked at the Eiffel Tower and he says oh you get a great view from here

18:26but he was he was he was one that for me it was like 14 continuous years of serving under him it was the longest ever and you got to know me and I knew as well he used to give me rollickings real rollickings some of which you see on the documentary after a game we won the game and he'd give me a rollicking but he would give me that rollicking when he really meant to give somebody else a bit of a go but I could always take it and I knew exactly what he was doing and that's why he had a go at me so some of the players would say well hang on a minute do you not like that you shouldn't be getting that sort of criticism and I just said well look that's what he does so I was fine so we had a really good relationship yeah over many there's some good players in that team oh yeah some right characters in the team brilliant characters you still see them I still see them you still see them when you do functions with them and Q &A's and all that it's just lovely it's really brilliant you still go and watch Ipswich yeah I watch Ipswich I don't actually go to the ground now I just watch it on the TV yeah I do I mean obviously back in the Premier League which is brilliant Kieran McKenna has done a fantastic job there I mean the backers I mean the whole thing the whole club now is set up as a Premier League club there's no doubt about it and what he has to do now is obviously Kieran McKenna is keep Ipswich in the Premier League that's his probably his biggest task just shows you that sometimes sticking with a coach when you think he knows what he's doing is not a bad idea because obviously I mean he took them up didn't he successive promotions in the Premier League incredibly difficult ask didn't quite happen go down they didn't sack him and lo and behold they're doing okay again yeah I mean, you can't see life at Ipswich without Kieran McKenna because he's got them, you know, they know the system, they know what they're doing, they know their jobs.

20:15He makes them play a certain way, which suits them. And he's very clever. You know, and now he's, you know, this is probably his biggest task is to keep Ipswich up there in the Premier League. But I'm sure he'll do it. And I'm sure it's about the key is getting players in that can play in the Premier League that they probably played there before with a point to prove, hungry people, just like Sunderland did Sunderland did a fantastic job coming up and staying so that's the objective but it's just nice back in the Premier League back at the top unfortunately not like Leicester thanks Terry that's the nation we had our time though would I swap it?

20:51no would I help? what a time you had what a time I mean crikey win the league and then the FA Cup a few years later I'd love to see you run round of TV studios now in your underpants I think that was great that was one of the highlights of the year whatever turns you on Terry mind you I've seen you underpants quite a few times oh yeah let's not go down let's not go down there how difficult was it to leave Ipswich it was quite easy just got in the car and drove to the station it's very simple no I had to go I didn't want to go I just signed a four year deal a year before and I was captain of the club and it was a club I supported but Ipswich had built a stand in 82, 83 and you paid for it And yeah, well, all the others that left as well, you know, the Mariners, the Tysons, the Murians and all that, and Brazils, they all left because of that, the payments.

21:44And I was the last one. So the manager said, look, you've got to go. And I said, no, I don't want to go, Bobby. I want to stay. And he says, no, you've got to go. And I says, I don't want to go. He says, you are going because it's the last payment. I think people find that probably difficult to believe nowadays because players' power shifted to a degree. in those days if the club wanted to sell you they could make it very difficult for you if you didn't go well you knew yeah you knew in those days almost like pieces of meat well in those days you could get away with murder really if you were the club manager so yeah in the end I thought well I've been at the club 10 years as a pro maybe it's time to go but I didn't know who was going to come in I actually went to the World Cup sort of you know I could have had a sign on me you know available to buy please inquire here sort of thing that would have been interesting yeah but then could have put it on the headband could have put it on the headband yeah and then we were sort of approached by Rangers and then Sunez came in and you know Sunez we played against Sunez he's tough as tough as Teak yes and even tougher and that's why players were going there was because he wanted to spark things off in Scotland and it was a bit of a gamble yes but we did it enjoyed it before we move on to Rangers what was the highlight of your time at Ipswich I mean there must have been quite a few because he held himself The UEFA Cup was one.

22:59You know, you've got 62. Ipswich won the title, first division then. 78 won the FA Cup. And, you know, to win a European trophy was a good addition to those stars that you have on the shirt. So it's different. I mean, I tell people we didn't want to win the league. We didn't want to win the FA Cup because we'd already done that sort of thing. But that wasn't the case with the club to have done it. But we were searching for the treble. Who was the best player at Ipswich you played? Kevin Beatty. Beatty was great wasn't he ability to score goals and play at the back play anywhere couldn't he well he was out in Escape to Victory the Beat was out there it was Michael Cain's I remember there were one or two switch players wasn't Osman was in there as well wasn't he Russell was there yeah Johnny Walk Kevin Callahan yeah he was there Escape to Victory I think Kevin Beatty's biggest claim in Escape to Victory was that behind the scenes he was arm wrestling Sylvester Stallone and he beat him he beat him with his left hand at his right hand he beat Rocky he'd be rocky oh my word like that yeah he's now heavyweight champion of the world but he could play football as well yeah he was strong he was naturally strong yeah and people say he was a bit like Duncan Edwards just going back a long time but he just a climb in the air he's just an unbelievable leap he wasn't 6 foot 4 like me he was probably about 6 '1 but what you know the timing and everything else he was incredible for our younger listeners Duncan Edwards was the great young Manchester United player that sadly lost his life from the plane crash.

24:28Rangers, it's a big football club, isn't it? It's huge. Rob expectation. It's massive. You don't realise what it's like. I remember when Gazza was with the England squad, Gazza's like you're playing Mickey Mouse football. And I said, well, don't knock it. He ended up there himself. I said, don't knock it until you tried it. And when he tried it, he says, you're exactly right. It's special. It's so much attention. It's a national game. The press contingent is huge as well. and it's all over the newspapers, everywhere, radio and things like that. So when you play for Rangers or Celtic, you've got to be at your best every game because the opposition don't want to get beat 5 or 6-0 and they're going to try like bears to make sure that they don't lose and maybe even sneak a win.

25:11So you can beat Celtic on a boxing day or New Year's Day, then the next day you're playing something like Hibs or Motherwell or something like that and you could lose because you were so up for the Celtic game and then you couldn't get to that height again for the next game and therefore you got turned over. So there were pitfalls. You loved it up there, didn't you? Didn't you stay up there for years and years? Yeah, on and off, yeah. I'm the only Englishman in the Scottish Hall of Fame, so it's quite honest. Are you the only Englishman in the Hall of Fame? I think so, yeah, the only Englishman, yeah, which is unique.

25:43How were they when they deal with it, the Scottish football fans? Because there were a lot of English players, weren't they, at that point Graeme Souness brought quite a few in was there any kind of pushback at any stage from the fans going hang on a minute because you know there is a bit of rivalry between England and Scotland on the football side of things there were there were knockbacks and they came from not Rangers non-Rangers supporters Rangers fans loved it there'd be lots of crosses of St George about the Rangers fans because Rangers generally don't go and watch a lot of Scotland games.

26:22So, you know, they sort of cheer on the English boys when it comes to playing Scotland. And I remember being in the hotels. I was the owner of the hotel and I had to do the work, the evening shift on a Saturday night. And that Saturday was coincided with the England-Scotland game in the Euros and the Gaza goal. And I was on shift and then at night I went in and I'm thinking, well, thank goodness England won. So I was serving people and I looked at some of the people coming and they had all knocks and bloody noses and chips on their eyes and that so it looked like a lot of people are coming to the fight you know after a fight and I said to the boys to the guys I said well did you meet some English fans and all that sort of thing was there trouble and they said no no the trouble was from the Scotland fans because when they were Rangers fans I had no idea that and the guys had lobbed over Colin Hendry and scored the Rangers fans went oh what a goal because he was their player yeah and of course the other Scotland fans that weren't Rangers fans started fighting I bet they did it was like a war I'll bet you played with Gazza obviously with England and at Rangers how was he at Rangers just the same as he was everywhere else I didn't play with him at Rangers he was after you just after me but I would watch him a lot when it came to the radio or TV or something like that I'd do the Rangers games and I saw him I interviewed him at Parkhead after they'd beaten Celtic and that's when he came out with that statement about, you know, it's like it's not the game most football now.

27:53But he was lovely. I mean, the stories up there are legendary stories. And the Rangers fans absolutely adored him. Yeah. And he was crazy. But at the same time, what a player. He'll win a game on his own. And he did that frequently. We've all got one. What's your favorite Gazza story? The favorite Gazza story is, right, when Walter Smith's the manager now and Gazza's there and um one after training one day brian loudrop the great brian loudrop goes in to see wallace smith and he says we have a problem so well it's okay fine what is it he says paul gas going so he says well it says oh what's he done now he says well we go do training come back in gazzer comes back early gets his clothes up rushes into the shower has a shower we take our time and chat and then we eventually go into the shower so he says uh well what's the problem with that he He says, well, Gazza comes out, he says, and he gets dried, puts clothes on, and goes home.

28:49So he's, well, that's normal. He says, no, but they're my clothes. I'm so Gazza. I'm so Gazza. I'm so Gazza. That's amazing. He used to cut ties up and all that sort of thing. Oh, absolutely. Let's take a break there, and then we come back. We'll get a bit more Gazza at some point, a bit more Rangers, and definitely England. This episode is brought to you by Hotels.com. Booking your next hotel for a work trip or a weekend away to see your team play? With Hotels.com, each day brings you closer to rewards. Introducing the all-new 10 for 100 from Hotels.com is exactly what it sounds like. Stay 10 nights, get back£100 in Hotels.com cash to use on your next getaway.

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30:20So when we're asked to pick a truly Odyssean player from our own generation, I started to think of the ones who really had to graft. The ones who showed real grit, navigating setbacks, pushing for those later breakthroughs, beating the odds to reach the top with maybe a few less mythical creatures. Our kickers off as my player is probably the oldest of the lot. A certain Peter Beardsley I've gone for. Yeah, I don't think people are aware of this, but he eventually had to go and play in Canada when he was like late teens. Vancouver Whitecaps, was it? Vancouver Whitecaps and played over there in that era when the football side of America was quite popular for a while he was doing okay over there playing really well I think then he got a trial at Manchester United or something he didn't quite and then eventually he made his name Brilliant I'm going for Stuart Pearce from where he started electrician non-league football Wilston I think I was an electrician Mark Hughes was he?

31:22Sparky Sparky There you go, there's another one. So then for him to do what he did in his career and the way he got there, play for England in World Cups and Euros and had the career that he had, proper warrior. Did you have any skills before football? No, I was too busy working on my first touch, Michael. I'll go Mo Salah. Mo Salah. He had a journey. He had a journey. Well, you probably know a bit more about the beforehand. I did a documentary with him once and I didn't realise that, you know, when he wanted to be as a footballer, he used to travel like four hours there and four hours back. Really?

31:59Every day to train. That's mad. Incredible. Incredible drive, conviction. Yeah, but also that comeback, bounce-back ability in the corner, don't they? I was with Matt Fiorentina. I know. And he was a superstar then. I knew it. He went to Rome. I went to Liverpool. Failed at Chelsea before. He went on loan to Fiorentina as well. but to become the superstar that he is today. I'd possibly pick you as well. Me? Yeah, because at one stage, you were just Mo Sellers' tactics.

32:31You're all serious. I thought you were going to break. You were going to be flask. You're the exact opposite. You burst onto the scene and then kind of...

32:45That was a good one, I guess. Yeah. Very good. Every now and again. There you have it. our Odyssean players, whether it's on the pitch or on the screen. That kind of resilience and perseverance is what separates the greats from the rest. And to truly experience such an ambitious journey, it demands the big screen. Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey is in cinemas from July the 17th. Book your tickets from June 15th. This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee and what might be hidden away in the small print.

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34:03Be smart, get wise, T's and C's apply.

34:10Welcome back to The Rest of Football with certain Terry Butcher and me, Gary Lineker. Terry, what was your highlight at Rangers? I mean, you won a few trophies there, didn't you? Was it three titles, was it? Yeah, three titles in four years. I broke a few doors down, scored a few own goals. Did you break doors down? I did, yeah. Got charged as well by the police. Breach of the peace, but they dropped it eventually. I scored more goals past Chris Woods than any other Scottish striker. And I've got a criminal record as well. And I broke my leg. But apart from that... Yeah, Duncan Ferguson in disguise.

34:44I am, yeah. I had a great time. The highlight is, I think the first year when we won the title in 87, I went up in 86. To win a title, I hadn't won a title before, and you know what it's like. It's just incredible. Yeah, I do know what it's like not to win a title. Yeah. But you sort of take sort of like a yoke on your shoulders, the pressure, and when you win the title it's just lifted off you know you're happy as Larry so to win the first title that was the first time Rangers have won the title in nine years so they've seen a lot of people win it and now they were winning it and it was the English Revolution as you said and it was just a great time to be there it really was it was an excellent team at that point oh it was a good team Ray Wilkins was up there Graham Roberts Mark Walters some really good players yeah I mean you must follow obviously Scottish football because of your time there.

35:36I'd be interested to see what you made of the whole thing last week with Celtic sneaking the league over Hearts. I think it was a shame for Scottish football, wasn't it, that Hearts didn't win it? And that very dubious VAR decision probably cost them the target. You can't get rid of VAR now. It's there for good, but it's got to improve. I would have loved to have actually fingertipped the ball 20 yards into the stand. I know, exactly. I mean, the fingers, it must be so powerful as fingers, the head defender when he did it. I mean, anyone that's remotely followed football watch football would be I found it extraordinary but anyway but then back in I think it was 86 Celtic won the title and they had to beat St Mirren I think it was by about five goals to win it and the Hearts actually at that time they should have won it but they lost against Dundee and then St Mirren sort of not caved in but Celtic beat St Mirren the required total and they won it so they came with a really good late run to win it and they've obviously come this year with a really good late run to win it as well so fair play to them but the game was obviously was Celtic Motherwell and it was on live on the tv um and Rita my wife she says let's put it on see how they're doing do you not want to know and I went no I don't want to know I said because I can't work out who I want to win who I want to lose and I did the best thing and not watch it not watch it at all and of course you tune in later on yeah you knew what would So, yeah, it is heartbreaking when you lose a title.