529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)

0:07。 I felt quite fresh, and was delighted with the enthusiastic welcome of the crowds who were waiting in the rain, and who gave me the Nazi salute and shouted out of the hill.

0:30for the three hours journey to Berchtesgaden. All the way up there were people at the crossings, the stations and at the windows of the houses, all hailing and saluting. We drove to the brown house a good deal higher up the mountain. Halfway down the steps stood the Führer, bareheaded and dressed in a khaki-coloured coat of broadcloth with a red armlet and a swastika on it and the military cross on his breast. He wore black trousers, such as we wear in the evening, and black patent leather lace-up shoes. His hair is brown, not black. His eyes blue. His expression rather disagreeable, especially in repose, and altogether he looks entirely undistinguished.

1:29You would never notice him in a crowd, and would take him for the house painter he once was. After saying some words of welcome, he took me up the steps and introduced me to a number of people, among whom I only distinguished General Keitel, a youngish, pleasant-faced, smart-looking soldier. We then entered the house and passed along a very bare passage to the celebrated chamber, or rather hall, one end of which is entirely occupied by a vast window. The view towards Salzburg must be magnificent, but to this day there were only the valley and the bottoms of the mountains to be seen. that was Neville Chamberlain who was writing to his sister Ida after his trip to Hitler's mountain lair on Thursday the 15th of September 1938 and Dominic he seems to have been completely obsessed with what Hitler was wearing yes amazing attention to detail but I suppose it's a novelty for Chamberlain Hitler's shoes yes black patent leather lace-up shoes yeah you would take him for the house painter he once was which he wasn't was he no he was never a house painter he was a postcard painter the fact that Chamberlain is describing it in such banal detail to his sister, this extraordinary meeting is a reminder of an unprecedented moment it is, right?

2:53People don't normally do this. So in the last episode, the first of our two-part series on Munich, we talked about how rare it is for European statesmen to do this, to fly to each other's countries at the drop of a hat for an emergency summit. You know, this didn't happen in the build-up to the First World War. Chamberlain is doing something extraordinary here. He's boarded his plane, we ended last time, a Heston aerodrome. He's launching this remarkable kind of diplomatic coup in a desperate attempt to avoid war over Czechoslovakia, a war that Hitler is planning to launch on the 1st of October, which is just two weeks away.

3:33And which Chamberlain doesn't know that, of course. No, Chamberlain doesn't know that at all. So just on Chamberlain and his flight, Chamberlain left with the goodwill of the British press kind of ringing in his ears. Every newspaper in Britain said it was brilliant that Chamberlain was doing this. They were so excited. The news from Paris, you know, Paris sent him messages to support. The French are delighted that he's doing it. Crucially, I think for Britain, the Dominions, that is Australia, Canada, and so on, New Zealand, they have made it clear to him they are very, very reluctant to be dragged into a war in Central Europe.

4:07Right, because if the British don't want to die for Czechoslovakia, I guess if you're in Wellington or Sydney, I mean, that'd be even madder. Exactly. So off he goes with their goodwill. It's actually not his first flight. This is one of the things that people think about Chamberlain that is wrong. He'd gone up with the future George VI, hadn't he, at some air show or something. Is that right? That's an industrial fair in Birmingham in the 1920s. It is. Yeah. And they'd only, like, gone, circled the field and then landed again. But he had been in a plane before. It was great fun. Anyway, he's travelled this time with his closest aide, who is a guy called Sir Horace Wilson, who is one of the civil servants who is one of the key architects of the appeasement policy.

4:49Basically, let's solve the European issue by giving in to their more reasonable demands. That's how they see it. So they have ham sandwiches and they drink whiskey on the flight. I think that's an excellent combination, actually. I think more airlines should offer that as an option. It's a smooth flight, but then they get into Munich and there's a bit of a storm, a bit of turbulence. Oh, there's an omen there, yes. It is an omen, yeah. They are escorted by a German plane to the ground. Chamberlain comes out of the plane, and he's very happy. He's smiling for the cameras. He's very confident. In his own mind, I think it's really important for people to get this in their heads about Munich.

5:21Chamberlain is not doing all this sort of reluctantly, grudgingly, like he is the victim in all this. He's seizing the moment. In his mind, he is the star. He is the hero of the hour. He is the man of destiny, the modern politician who has seized European history by the scruff of its neck. The arbiter of the continent's fate. That's exactly how he sees himself. Although, that said, the anti-appeasement MP, Harold Nicholson, said that Chamberlain and Horace Wilson arrived in Germany with, and I quote, the bright faithfulness of two curates entering a pub for the first time. That's a brilliant description.

6:00Which I think is pretty close to the mark. So you sort of get a sense of that from Chamberlain's, from that reading, right? There's a big sort of... It's a very pooterish quality. Yeah. There were lots of cars, people were saluting. Hitler had some smart shoes on He wore black trousers So he arrives at the Berghof Hitler's eerie Eagle's nest It's pouring with rain It's very cloudy Which is why he says He can't see Salzburg He's not the first British visitor To go there David Lloyd George And the Duke of Windsor Who had been Edward VIII Notoriously had been He'd been there, exactly And Hitler, as he describes He's waiting from the steps They shake hands If you look at the photos They both look very jolly Chamberlain, of course Has his umbrella and his hat he obviously makes this remark about Hitler looking like a house painter and actually he's even more damning I mean British snobbery is a great theme of these episodes when he goes back to the cabinet later on he says Hitler wasn't the commonest little dog he had ever seen though it was impossible not to be impressed with the power of the man so he despises Hitler and yet at the same time he recognises that there is a kind of demonic quality to Hitler though as we will see I think Chamberlain completely misreads the balance of power between himself and Hitler.

7:11Anyway, he's arrived at the eagle's nest. Hitler says, come into my study. They go into his study. Ribbentrop, who is hanging around, is not invited in. So that would have improved his mood. No, no. He hates Chamberlain, hates Britain, loves German sparkling wine, but hates Britain. He's not allowed in, so he's very cross. And for three hours they talk and there's this storm raging outside, very kind of Wagnerian. Hitler is speaking quite softly. it's all been translated by his interpreter who's a guy called paul schmidt and he's going on and on about how badly the sudeten germans are treated and chamberlain says look if you will rule out force i will consider anything to make you happy no we can talk about any kind of solution but you must not fight hitler at this point loses his temper and he says well i mean you talk to me about force he says but benesh and the czechs they're already using force against my countrymen in the Sudetenland.

8:06I will not accept this. You know, I will settle this question, all this kind of thing. And then he starts at trouble with Hitler. He can't control himself. Yeah, he goes off on a rant, doesn't he? Goes on a massive rant. Goes off on one. He says, I don't care if there's a world war. You know, if I want to settle this, I'd rather have a world war, frankly. Let's have a world war. And Chamberlain is very cross at this point. Chamberlain does not give in to him. Chamberlain is not a wimp and a weed. Chamberlain says, well, if you think like that, then I've completely wasted my time. There's no point in coming.

8:30He says, if that's your intention, why did you have me coming to Berkder's Garden at all? Under these circumstances, I think it's better if I leave straight away. And amazingly, Hitler backs down at this point. People don't normally talk like this to Hitler. Hitler says, oh, well, let's go back to your previous thing. You said you would grant self-determination to the sedate and Germans. Well, maybe we could, maybe let's talk about how that would work in reality. And Chamberlain obviously thinks to himself at this point, you stand up to this bloke and he will back down, he will be reasonable. How are we getting this?

9:01Is this from Schmidt or Hitler or from Chamberlain? So this is a combination of Schmidt wrote memoirs later on where he talked about all this. I mean, Schmidt is an amazing source, but also Chamberlain reports all this to his cabinet. And he also writes about it to his sisters. So the letter to Ida that we began with. So we get kind of different... So there is a possibility that he might be slightly bigging up his... Oh, I think throughout this, Chamberlain is definitely bigging himself up a bit. I don't think there's any doubt about that. In Chamberlain's version of the conversations, he is always the star and he is playing Hitler.

9:37Whereas I think in reality, it's the other way around. Anyway, they agree. Chamberlain will go back to Britain and will talk to his cabinet. And Hitler says, fine, I'll wait for that and I won't order any precipitate military action. And so Chamberlain goes off and he goes down and stays at a hotel down at the bottom of the mountain in Berchtesgarten. Now, Chamberlain thinks, great, I've got a good result. Hitler, once Chamberlain's gone, is delighted. and he's rubbing his hands with glee, literally rubbing his hands, and he says to Ribbentrop, well, I've got Chamberlain to give me this Sudetenland.

10:08He says it's win-win. If the Czechs refuse and won't go along with this, then we'll have a war. And if they say yes, then I'll take the Sudetenland and maybe I'll just come back for the rest of Czechoslovakia later. And they all think that Chamberlain is a fuddy-daddy old bloke with an umbrella, don't they? They do indeed. They're all kind of laughing at him and thinking he's ridiculous. And doesn't, Hitler does kind of make an offer to say that he might go to London, but he's worried that he will be heckled by British Jews. He'll be poorly treated in his own mind. Exactly. So he never does. So that never happens.

10:42No, I think probably best for Britain's image that we never had Hitler over. He went to Liverpool, didn't he? Yeah. So the thing about Hitler's offer here, right, is that it is quite a departure from what he previously wanted. Up to this point, he's been talking about this today sedation land merely as a pretext to get the whole of czechoslovakia he doesn't just want the sedation land he wants to break up the whole of czechoslovakia but now he's saying well maybe i will just take the sedation land and i'll come back for czechoslovakia for the rest later so to that extent he has kind of slightly blinked anyway chamberlain goes back to london everyone says oh you've done brilliantly well done what a tremendous man you are and he goes straight in to brief the cabinet and here i think it's sometimes very tempting to just be unremittingly hostile to chamberlain but here is a point where i think it's very difficult to be anything but hostile because he clearly has completely misread the situation because he says i've met hitler i'm absolutely convinced that hitler's objectives are strictly limited he says i believe hitler when he says he only wants to bring german speakers like george bush gazing into vladimir putin's eyes yeah he's Seeing, yeah, seeing a good man.

11:55This is exactly what he says. He says, well, in spite of the harshness and ruthlessness I thought I saw in his face, I got the impression that here was a man who could be relied upon when he had given his word. I mean, given what we know about Hitler, so they know about the lights and the long knives. They know about the Anschluss. They know all this. That's a mad thing for Chamberlain to say. Yeah. Well, also, the other thing is, what about the checks at this point? because they're not present at this meeting, which is deciding the fate of their country. So again, I kind of looked this up and Czechs, so leading Czechs, are describing everyone involved in this in kind of very understandably very abusive terms.

12:40So they describe Sir Horace Wilson as a sow. They refer to the French foreign minister as the swine. So there's a lot of kind of porcine-based imagery. They refer to Chamberlain as the old man And one of them writes The Chamberlain government is treating our head of state As if he were an N-word chieftain Ruling some troublesome colonial tribe Yeah, the Czechs, they feel absolutely furious And they're right I mean, the Nazis are obviously behaving in a very colonial manner But the British are as well It's kind of like, you know, let's draw a line on the map here And whatever Yeah, I mean, you could say Exactly, if you're a Czech listening to this podcast You're like, the British are behaving with complete arrogance here They're just basically signing half our country away I mean, that's the story of Munich, isn't it?

13:20The Czechs, the story of the next few days is actually really simple. The British, with very enthusiastic French backing, say to the Czechs, right, you've got to give them the Sudetenland. And no, you probably shouldn't even organise a referendum. Just hand it over. That's the quickest thing to do. So here's my question. Couldn't the Czechs have fought on anyway? They've got all this industrial hinterland. They've got arms. They've got this incredible Maginot line in the mountains. Very, very impressive, which they will lose if they hand over the Sudetenland, because it's on the flank of the Sudetenland.

13:55Why don't they just fight? Particularly because the German economy is on the point of collapse at this point. Because, well, first of all, they don't know that about the German economy, but also they will lose. The Germans have done their war games. They're pretty confident they can win in a matter of weeks. But they're going to lose anyway. I guess they think they're being put under enormous pressure by their supposed friends. Be reasonable. Give them the Sudetenland. It's full of German speakers anyway. But the thing is, with those defences, they would have had perhaps a chance. If they surrender those defences, they haven't got any chance at all.

14:30Tom, you're quite right. You are quite right. And lots of listeners to this podcast will no doubt say you were right. I think it's because they think, given that we'll lose either way, maybe if we get an international guarantee, we give them the Sudetenland and then we get a guarantee by the French and the British. I mean, you've made comparisons with Russia and Ukraine. I mean everyone in the West assumed that Ukraine would lose the moment the Russians crossed the border Yeah The Czechs seem in a stronger position to me than the Ukrainians Yeah and the Czechs are arguably in a stronger position than the Poles were a year later For sure Poland that took about a month Could the Czechs have held out for two months or longer I mean ultimately I think the Germans would have won And the Czechs with no allies That's a big ask I suppose and they've got the Hungarians and the Poles sniffing around as well haven't they Yeah, your neighbours fancy a bit of you as well.

15:20I just wonder, though, because I mean, the tragedy of this is that they are very, very impressively defended. Yeah. They have to give all that up. Yeah, of course. Of course. Because what happens is that basically after a few days, they give him under unrelenting French and British pressure. on the 21st of September, they get a message from Prague. The Czechoslovak government sadly accepts the French and British proposals, but they say that on the condition that you will do everything to safeguard our vital interests, i.e. the Sudetenland will be given away, but you will maybe give us a guarantee or give us a pledge or give us something anyway.

15:56Yeah, which would obviously not be worth the paper it was written on. Well, that's the thing, isn't it? So meanwhile, what's Hitler been doing during all this? He has been doing his usual thing, which he does when he's stressed. He has massive lions, watches these terrible films. Works out holes in flagpoles. Exactly. Does all this kind of thing. He thinks that the Czechs probably won't give him what he wants. But he now, having seen Chamberlain, he thinks, hey, that guy's not going to fight. That guy's never going to go to war. So he says to Goebbels, I think we can probably push for a bit more, actually.

16:25I think let's up the ante. So let's get to the 22nd of September. Now we welcome back to the rest of history. Yeah. A great theme of all our series about Germany between the wars, which is the spa hotel theme. So people will remember we had a lot of spa hotels in the last season. Particularly the Night of the Long Nives, wasn't it? Which was all based in spas, pretty much. Weddings and spas. Well, it's like a fan favourite location. We're revisiting one of the Night of the Long Nives spa hotels. because the next meeting between Chamberlain and Churchill is scheduled for a spa hotel in Bad Gordersburg on the Rhine River near Bonn.

17:03So fumes of sulfur. Enormous sweating Germans beating each other with birch twigs or whatever they do. Mugs of hot water. Yeah, drinking like filthy water, laughing at nothing, just dreadful. Anyway, Chamberlain lands at Cologne. Cologne Airport just after midday. He's got his umbrella as is traditional. He has to inspect a detachment of SS troops. Then he's driven to this hotel on the right bank of the Rhine, the Petersburg Hotel. It's been decorated for him by Ribbentrop, who stuffed it, I read, with fruit, cigars, hydrangeas, and eau de cologne. So common. So, yeah, exactly. You turn up and there's a load of eau de cologne.

17:45That's common. Nicky Haslam would hate that. Hitler was on the other bank of the Rhine, a fan favourite, the Dresen Hotel. this was where he had planned the murder of Ernst Rohn so happy memories for him but he's in terrible form Tom he's all nervous Chamberlain's coming the journalists are there the place is swarming with press and they see him looking strained and twitching and it's at this point that they start a rumour some of the press the German press actually that he'd choose the carpet so they nickname him the Teppichfresser which means the carpet biter and this becomes a big nickname for Hitler in the kind of 1930s, 1940s among the press, people say, oh Hitler it's always biting the carpet anyway, so Hitler's there biting the carpet finally, that afternoon Chamberlain comes over to the spa hotel to the Dresden Chamberlain's delighted with himself, Chamberlain thinks I've done a brilliant thing here, I've done a great bit of work the Czechs are given in, you can have the Sudetenland, we will give a guarantee to the Czechoslovakia for the rest of its borders and he says maybe it would be a nice thing if you signed a non-aggression pact with Prague as well to show your good intentions and then job done we can all go home right brilliant day's work and Hitler says I'm sorry actually I've changed my mind the circumstances have changed and I have more demands he says my friends in Hungary and Poland also have territorial demands on on Czechoslovakia and I need them to be satisfied and actually now that I think about it I don't really want to wait for the Czechs to give me the Sudetenland because they're mistreating our people every hour.

19:25I'm actually going to send in, I would like to send in my army right now, please. That's my plan. So I'm actually just going to go for it. And Chamberlain, he sits there and the kind of blood drains from his features. He says, yes, but Reich Chancellor, exactly. He is outraged by this. And he basically storms off back to his hotel and refuses to come out again. So they're in their kind of rival hotels. Power play. Very, very much. Chamberlain doesn't show up the next day, the next day's meeting. He sends a letter instead. And he says. A firmly worded letter. A firmly worded letter. He says, British public opinion will not stand for this.

20:04This is very poor. He says, also, the Czechs will fight you if you try to go in without a deal. Hitler sends him a letter back. Quite a polite letter, actually, by Hitler's standards. And eventually they agree that they will meet that evening. So back at Hitler's hotel. Chamberlain goes in and Hitler says, I've changed my mind. Actually, they can have four days. They've got to be out on the 28th. And then I'm going in. They've got to be out. Otherwise, it's war. And Chamberlain's very shocked at this. And then another twist. We do like a twist in this series. A man comes in with a note for Hitler.

20:41Hitler opens this note and he says, my God, the Czechs have mobilised their army. And there's this long silence. And Chamberlain apparently thought that Hitler was just going to go absolutely berserk and order an invasion right then and there on the spot. And then Hitler says, fine, they can have a bit more time. They have to be out by the 1st of October. I'll give them more days. Because this seems a great tragic moment. the checks have shown their determination they've mobilized they've presumably occupied all these fortresses it just seems awful that they they then just surrender it yeah you're taking this very personally tom and not unreasonably i mean terrible thing i mean it's a terrible story and we behave so badly although obviously not as bad as the nazis but no it's so important to stress that i think we're not the we're not the chief villains in this no and of course it sells sister chamberlain by appealing against chamberlain's vanity he says to him this concession that i'm making that they can have till the first of october i'm only making this for you because of how much i respect you i wouldn't make this for anybody else and of course he loves this because he thinks i am the star of the show i have once again pulled off this coup so chamberlain goes to london hitler goes back to berlin hitler spends that next day which is sunday strolling in the gardens of the reich chancellor goebbels and he says look what we're going to probably end up with now is we'll get the sudetenland we'll probably have to leave it at that and then we'll come back next year or whenever for the rest of czechoslovakia meanwhile chamberlain is meeting his cabinet and many of them are actually really shocked they're much more shocked than chamberlain was that Hitler had been asking for more.

22:32Hitler had kind of changed the terms of the game. And they say, well, what we'll do is we'll send to Horace Wilson, to Chamberlain's kind of right-hand man, civil servants, send him back to Berlin and we'll tell Hitler, look, we'll stress to him, you cannot attack the Czechs. We have to get the deal. If you use force at all, then the French will enter the war and Britain will support France. They are taking a firmish line on it. And they're starting to kind of get ready for war themselves, aren't they? They are, exactly. So the French are kind of sending troops up to the Maginot Line. Yeah. There is a sense that France and Britain are gearing up to take a strong position.

23:11Yes, absolutely there is. 26th, 27th of September, this is when they start making really serious preparations. You know, kind of anti-aircraft batteries are being called up and their thoughts about evacuating people from cities. Gas master children and things. Exactly so, exactly. So the next day Monday the 26th Horace Wilson gets to Berlin gets in the afternoon and he finds Hitler in a very peculiar mood because Hitler has got a big speech that evening at the Sport Palast in Berlin Oh sport again it's this endless PE theme Yeah exactly it's going to be all these people in the stadium indoor stadium with medicine balls Hitler's going to address 20 ,000 people he's going to address them and Hitler's Hitler's in a very you know sort of grumpy mood and he says to Horace Wilson I'm sick of all this like negotiations and hotels and stuff.

23:57He says, basically, the checks have to be out by the 1st of October, or if they're not, I'll attack them. And he says, and I quote, if France and England want to strike, let them go ahead, I don't give a damn. And he says to Wilson, do you not think that we want to fight? Come and see my speech. So Wilson goes along to see this speech. And Hitler is absolutely ranting and raving like a lunatic. William Shira, the American journalist we've quoted a few times, he was there and he said, Hitler was shouting and shrieking in the worst state of excitement I've ever seen him in with a fanatical fire in his eyes and he's screaming about Germandom and the Germans being oppressed and we will stand and fight and all this kind of thing and his audience who are keen Nazis go absolutely berserk every sentence they applaud and at the end they chant for minutes Fuhrer befehl, wir folgen Leader command, we will follow You know, this sort of quite chilling scene So not the way that Chamberlain would address the good people of Birmingham Not at all Look, I've picked up a rather nice tea cosy Yeah, exactly People of Birmingham would enjoy a kind of an indoor arena They could do it at the NEC The NEC in Birmingham Villa Park it's not indoors though is it it's not the same no it's not i suppose um anyway this is spiraling off the next day horace wilson goes back to the reich chancellery and he says look i've had a new message from chamberlain chamberlain says don't use force if you don't use force we will guarantee britain will guarantee that the checks will clear out of the sudetenland so britain is actually really now yeah we're get out of your your well-prepared fortifications yeah britain is letting itself down i think at this point tom it's fair to say and hitler actually is very sulky at this point he says well i don't care what britain does i don't care what you do or all i care about is the checks have got to be out by the first of october he says look i want an answer in two days are they going to clear out or not if they do not clear out he says i will smash the checks he repeats that two more times i will smash the checks and wilson who is a very tall man he kind draws himself up to his full height he says i am warning you if you do that and if france feels on a bound to fight in defense of its obligations to czechoslovakia quote the united kingdom would feel obliged to support her and hitler just stares in with his cold blue eyes and he says if france and england strike let them do so it's a matter of complete indifference to me I am prepared for every eventuality.

26:37It is Tuesday today, he says. And by next Monday, we shall all be at war. Yet another cliffhanger. I mean, you've promised cliffhangers and they keep coming. Like fire from a machine gun, from a Bren gun, perhaps. So let's take a break now. And when we come back, we'll find out if Britain and Germany do end up at war in 1938.

27:05First of all, I must say something to those who have written to my wife or myself in these last weeks to tell us of their gratitude for my efforts and to assure us of their prayers for my success. Most of these letters have come from women, mothers, or sisters of our own countrymen. But there are countless others besides, from France, from Belgium, from Italy, and even from Germany, and it has been heartbreaking to read the growing anxiety they reveal. If I felt my responsibility heavy before, to read such letters has made it seem almost overwhelming. How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks here because of a quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we know nothing.

28:12It seems still more impossible that a quarrel which has already been settled in principle should be the subject of war. But as long as war has not begun, there is always hope that it may be prevented. And you know that I am going to work for peace to the last moment. that is neville chamberlain of course unmistakable tones um addressing the british people on the night of the 27th of september 1938 with a great rousing piece of oratory that deserves to stand beside the address of henry v before the battle of ashen core the colors rung up by nelson before the Battle of Trafalgar, ringing stuff. Yeah.

29:04I mean, he's not... Listen to that. Yeah, he's not the most stirring of... No, no, listen to that. You're not going to, like, you know, reach for your gun and rush to the battlefront, are you? I mean, Chamberlain, you know, he was never a war leader. He said explicitly, I am a man of peace to the depths of my soul. Armed conflict between nations is a nightmare to me. He's completely upfront about that. And frankly, if you've been through the Great War... Of course. That's a completely reasonable position to take. Because that famous line, how horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks here because of quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we know nothing.

29:40Very famous phrase and always used to condemn him. But I mean, there he is absolutely articulating what the mass of people in Britain feel. Yeah, absolutely. And that when Churchill, for instance, who is the most famous anti-Opisa, says that what Britain is contemplating is shameful, they don't want to hear him say that. No, I think that's absolutely right. I think because people probably deep down know that it's shameful. And yet at the same time, they think we must do anything to avoid a rerun of the Great War. It would be worse, wouldn't it? Because it would be London and other cities would burn.

30:15Exactly. Exactly. Now, even as Chamberlain is preparing that speech, people are queuing up for gas masks in British town halls and village halls. The first children, blind children, are being evacuated from London. They've installed anti-aircraft batteries on Westminster Bridge. There is this sense that a war that nobody wants is coming and will happen within days. Interestingly, the mood in Germany is very similar. So that same day, the 27th, that Chamberlain made that speech, Hitler had arranged for a motorised division to pass through Berlin towards the Czech border, and this was basically, he wanted really to impress the diplomatic corps with Germany's readiness for war and Germany's war enthusiasm.

30:59And there's an amazing description of it by William Shira, the journalist we've mentioned a lot, and he talks about how the motorised division goes through the tanks or the armour cars or whatever they are, and people won't look at them. People turn away. They duck into the subway. They don't cheer. There is total silence. He says it was one of the most striking demonstrations against war that I've ever seen. And actually, you know, Goebbels and the Nazi high command, they're all quite disappointed with the Berlin reaction. But actually, even in the Nazi high command, there is massive anxiety, isn't there?

31:31So Ribbentrop is all in favour of it. But other members of the Nazi high command are thinking, oh, I'm really not sure about this. Yeah. War with Britain and France. Really? Are we ready? And also in the German army. I mean, they're really nervous about it. So the figures on that is that on Germany's western flank, they are hugely outnumbered by the french army yeah as they would be in 1939 but in 1939 the um the ally the western allies did not have an independent czechoslovakia no with strong frontier defenses that's right well we'll see about this point about the nazi command is a really important one and and it's about to produce another of these twists in the story so the next day is wednesday the 28th of september the house of commons in london holds an emergency debate and at this point most people think we will probably be at war within could be within hours not even because if hitler gives the go-ahead france will feel honor bound to defend czechoslovakia and we will feel honor bound to fall in behind france so chamberlain is giving this enormous speech this slightly plodding speech to these fellow mps explaining the whole backstory all the negotiations with hitler all being for nothing all this kind of thing and then there's an amazing i mean it really is an amazing moment he has passed a note it kind of comes down the chain along the bench and a piece of paper piece of paper so john simon is sitting next to him hands in this piece of paper and it's news from the british ambassador in berlin and he stops talking he reads it he pauses he clears his throat very theatrical and then he says i have something further to say to the house he says i've got an invitation i have an invitation from herr hitler to meet him in munich tomorrow morning he's also invited signor mussolini and monsieur deladier signor mussolini has accepted i've no doubt monsieur deladier is the french prime minister will also accept i need not tell you he says what my answer will be as in i'm definitely going to go And when people hear this There's this Colossal roar of relief Peace in our time People are literally shouting Because people credit Chamberlain with this They say he called for peace To the last moment And Hitler has blinked And they are cheering They're waving their order papers People are literally shouting Thank God for the Prime Minister Hurrah for the Prime Minister And all this kind of thing And the debate is brought to a premature conclusion people are crowding around chamberlain they pat him on the back and actually the last person to go up and shake his hand is winston churchill who says to him godspeed and off because he's going to go off on this mission to try and and bring peace to europe and actually what lies behind this is an intervention from a character who's you know who's well known to our listeners he's been very quiet in the last few episodes i think it's fair to say he's been off hunting a bad man but a memorable man because we finally welcome back to the rest of history the sweating white suited bulk of herman goering so it's around this time that the italian foreign minister bumps into goering and finds in him a slight suggestion of al capone which is so Goering at this point is an absolutely enormous man if you see him in this suit the suit is like multiple sizes too small for him he's got all kinds of diamond studded tie pins in the shape of swastikas and things yeah so Goering who's a who's a sweaty man as it is he's been sweating like a beast for the last few days because he's in a massive funk about the idea of a European war he thinks a European war is bonkers all right we're going to get the Sudetenland what do we want to fight uh france and britain for he hates ribbentrop with an absolute passion he keeps saying to ribbentrop stop asking for a war you fool and at one point they have a massive row goering says well i know what war is he says if hitler wants a war i will i'll be on the first plane over britain but he says to ribbentrop but i'll make sure you're strapped in next to me on that plane imagine if you were on that plane with what a terrible nightmare that is who am i going to be He's so large, isn't he, that he's going to crash the plane.