646. The Fall of the Incas: Death to the Emperor (Part 3)

15:55Tom Holland:know all of this uh dominic i mean we're not the rest is ants are we no never but pretend it to be i think there's a parasitic ant that will invade a rival ant colony and will take captive the head of the ants. Yeah. And either kill it or whatever. Yeah. And then just take over the whole ant heap, lock, lock, and barrel. So there's maybe a kind of parallel between the Spanish and parasitic ants.

16:21Dominic Sandbrook:That's a very compelling natural history parallel. Well done. I enjoyed that. It was worth the five-minute break in recording to Google that. Yeah, but I knew what to Google, right? You did. You deserve all the credit.

16:32Tom Holland:And it's the kind of thing that goes on in the rainforests of South America.

16:35Dominic Sandbrook:Yes, to the sound of the panpipes, surely. So even Atahualpa's generals, because don't forget, there's been civil war. Even his generals act as though nothing has changed. It's important for people to realize there are the various armies roaming around. So two of Atahualpa's key generals who will play a part in the next couple of episodes are in the south. There's a guy with the excellent name of Kisakis who has just captured Cusco. And there's another commander, basically the commander-in-chief, the oldest of the commanders, who's called Chalcochima. and Chalcochima is midway between Cusco and Cajamarca.

17:08Dominic Sandbrook:And both of these guys have about, I don't know, 40 ,000 men or something. Now there's a third general who we don't need to worry about right now called Ruminyawi, who is much further north. He's in Quito in the kind of home base of the Atahualpa side of the Civil War divide. Atahualpa says to these three generals, stay where you are, don't interfere with the ransom, wait for it to be collected. the foreigners will go once the ransom is paid and we can get on with the business of finishing off the war killing our enemies and cementing control of the empire the question i suppose is would his generals have tried to rescue him anyway and i would guess probably not because they are so everybody is so disorientated and baffled in his brilliant book the conquest of the incas john hemming makes the excellent point that basically in most places the europeans conquered Europeans had arrived multiple times before they actually turned up for good.

18:04Dominic Sandbrook:You know, missionaries had come, traders, envoys. What's very unusual about the conquest of Peru is basically the Spanish do it all in one go. So these generals have literally never seen a European. They've never heard of a European. Until they hear some mad guys with beards have turned up and captured the emperor. They didn't even know Europe existed.

18:26Tom Holland:But what do you think they find more disorientating? The fact that Europeans have turned up with beards and stuff, or the fact that they have dared to seize the emperor and keep him as a hostage. Because in a sense, that must be the thing that's really destabilizing, because there's nothing in their history or their ideology or their experience that would enable them to know what to do in such a scenario.

18:47Dominic Sandbrook:As we will see, they didn't even look the emperor in the eye. The emperor doesn't meet their eye when he talks to them. So the idea that these guys would have laid hands on him, dragged him out of his litter, and then forced him to sleep next to them, that's surely the biggest twist of all. Now, you mentioned that Huascar was being brought north under guard. In a cage, yes. So Pizarro, when Attawapa tells him this, Pizarro says, do not harm your brother, because Pizarro obviously thinks, wow. If I get both of them? Yeah. Can make them fight. Well, sleep with one on each side. Who knows? But Atau 'alpa has no intention of allowing his brother to fall into the Spanish hands because, of course, he worries that they might prefer his brother.

19:30Dominic Sandbrook:So he sends orders to the people who are bringing Huascar up at a place called Andamarca, which is south of Cayamaca in the mountains. Huascar is murdered by his guards and his body is thrown into the river.

19:42Tom Holland:So that's a great example of how Atau 'alpa, even as a captive, is still able effectively to rule the empire because all these messengers going out, taking his commands. Exactly right.

19:53Dominic Sandbrook:And it's also a good example of how Atahualpa is not this sort of martyr, saintly martyr. Atahualpa is a very hard man. No, I think we've established he's not a saintly martyr. So Atahualpa sends orders, carry on with the hits, basically. So some of his other half-brothers, some of his other relatives knocked off in the next few weeks. And to us, to subsequent historians, they say, isn't this insane that Atahualpa is still pursuing his crazy factionalism? after he's been taken prisoner in the face of this existential foreign threat. But he doesn't think it is an existential foreign threat. He thinks the civil war is the priority.

20:27Dominic Sandbrook:And hopefully, in the long run, he thinks maybe he could turn this to his advantage.

20:30Tom Holland:But I think also, in a civil war, perhaps you hate the people you're fighting much more than you do foreign intruders.

20:36Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah, I don't think he hates the Spanish. I think he's completely confused by them. So let's move on a few weeks to January 1533. A treasure is now arriving in Cajamarca. So that's jugs, plates, bowls, all these things made of gold. And the Spanish start breaking them up when they arrive so they can fit more and more in the room. They want to cram it into the room. Atoalpa says to them, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? I will give you so much gold, you'll be sated with it. But some of the Spanish say, you know, a few weeks have gone by, mate. We haven't seen as much gold as we hoped.

21:05Dominic Sandbrook:So Atoalpa says, well, I can tell you two places in particular where you'll get gold. And they're two of the most sacred temples in the empire. So one of them is the shrine and oracle of Pachacamac, which is near the coast, near what's now Lima. And the other is the Sun Temple of Coricancha in Cusco. I think both of these you mentioned, Tom, in your excellent Christopher Plummer reading. And the reason Atahualpa wants to surrender these two places in particular goes back to the point about the Civil War. So Cusco, the Sun Temple there, the most famous temple and religious site in the Andean world.

21:38Dominic Sandbrook:Why does he want to surrender that? because he's probably never even been to Cusco. Cusco is his brother's city, his brother's heartland. Well, he was planning to wipe Cusco out, wasn't he? Yeah, exactly. So get the Spanish to do it for him. Yeah, he represents the north of this empire, not the south. And he just thinks, well, you know, this is a brilliant way of punishing Cusco for backing my brother.

21:58Tom Holland:Yeah. I mean, it's like someone in Manchester saying, destroy London. Exactly.

22:03Dominic Sandbrook:And then the other one, Patrick Hammack. Amusingly, the priests at this oracle had made some disastrous predictions. They basically had the crystal ball that I used to use in my Associated Newspapers days. So they said, first of all, they had said that his father, Hwena Kapak, would recover of smallpox. He promptly died. They told Huascar that he would beat Atahualpa. As we've discovered, Huascar ended up in a cage. And they told Atahualpa that foreigners would arrive and he would easily defeat them. So Huascar says, this oracle is absolutely useless. And actually, there's a funny story. the high priest apparently, Pachamac, went to Caimac to see Atahualpa.

22:41Dominic Sandbrook:And Atahualpa upbraided him in front of the Spaniards and said, your predictions are terrible. You know, you're absolutely worthless. Of course I'm going to take all your gold. You've absolutely shamed yourselves.

22:52Tom Holland:But also, Atahualpa has started to fathom Spaniards' religious motivation. Yeah. And he kind of fires them up for sacking these temples by saying that the gods worship there are demons.

23:01Dominic Sandbrook:Yes, exactly.

23:02Tom Holland:So that's another way in which he can get his vengeance Yeah. on kind of priesthoods that he feel are against his rule.

23:10Dominic Sandbrook:And actually the interesting thing, so Pachacamac. Pachacamac dates back for more than a thousand years before the Incas. This is not an Inca shrine. It's part of the Andean world, but it's not part of their official state-sponsored sun religion, which they've been really trying to impose across the empire in recent decades.

23:29Tom Holland:There's a slight kind of owl man quality to it as well, isn't there? So the Owlman is the figure in the Aztec story where you unleash the Owlman and the world will end, but at least you'll destroy your enemies. And he gets shot and that's the end of the Owlman. There's a prophecy that if the temple at Pachacamac is attacked, then a universal flood would wipe out the entire world.

23:54Dominic Sandbrook:Oh, that's right. Yes.

23:55Tom Holland:And therefore, if tribute isn't paid to this temple, then it will be disastrous. So essentially, the Spanish, by sending people to loot it, are putting that prophecy to the test. And if they're wrong, then a universal flood will destroy all of life on Earth. So the stakes are quite high.

24:12Dominic Sandbrook:They are high. So Pizarro sends his brother Hernando to this shrine, Apachacamac, on the coast. And it's good for us that he did, because some of the guys that went with Hernando wrote these fantastic memoirs of the conquest. So a guy called Miguel de Estete. and they write these really there's some of the first kind of really lyrical descriptions of the

24:32Tom Holland:south american landscape there's a brilliant description of the road over the andes and the highlands are described as truly a land so muddy that it's like has not been seen in christendom

24:42Dominic Sandbrook:they obviously not been to somerset in january clearly not so um they go to the sanctuary and estete said it was basically the top of an adobe pyramid and he was very underwhelmed by it he said It was very dark and it didn't smell very pleasant. A very small, rough cavern. Seeing the filth and mockery of the idol, we went out to ask why they thought highly of something so dirty and ugly. And actually, there was no treasure there at all. If there was any treasure, the priests had hidden it. And the Spanish, they just smashed the whole place up. And is there a universal flood? No, not at all. So Ananda then sets off back to Kayamaka.

25:19Dominic Sandbrook:And actually, the distances in this story are absolutely mad. So Anando has just traveled 800 miles. He's got 800 miles to go back. And he's going back to Cajamarca. And then he discovers that at a place called Xausa, Atahualpa's commander-in-chief, this guy Chalkuchima, is blocking the mountain road with about 35 ,000 men. Now, Chalkuchima is the most experienced of all Atahualpa's generals. He's basically the sort of the grizzled veteran character in a sort of fantasy novel or something. I served your father. You know, that kind of thing.

25:53Tom Holland:yes that's his his vibe so the kind of character who is honorable but ultimately doomed

26:00Dominic Sandbrook:yeah in a science fiction story completely that's completely what he is exactly right so he's like that sort of jorah mormont or whatever in game of thrones that sort of figure yeah so john hemming says chalco chima is the one man who might have united the empire against the spaniards because he's the one man who's not entirely defined by the civil war because he had served Atahualpa's father. So in other words, what Chalkachima does now is very important. And Ando arrives in Chauja with his men. They've done this mad journey. They've climbed 16 ,000 feet up into the Andes. They've been trudging through snow.

26:36Dominic Sandbrook:They're absolutely shattered. There are only a few dozen of them, and Chalkachima has more than 30 ,000 men. They arrive in Chauja, and there's this festival going on. So there's people dancing and singing, and they sort of ignore the Spanish. So the Spanish hang around a bit, and then finally Chalkachima arrives with the senior officers. We have a description of him from the later chronicler, Thieta de Leon, who says he was a muscular man with a broad back, a fierce expression, and a short, very thick neck. So he looks like a rugby player, basically. And Ando says to Chalcochima, you know, Atahualpa wants you to come with us to Kayamaka.

27:09Dominic Sandbrook:And Chalcochima says, no, no, what? I'm not going with you. I haven't had any orders to say I should go with you. They have a massive argument all night. The Spanish think, well, if he doesn't, If he attacks us, we're pretty much doomed because he's got 30 ,000 men and we've got sort of, you know, 20 men or something. But the mad thing is when the dawn breaks, Chalkachima returns and says, yeah, actually, I've been thinking about it. I will come with you to Kaimaka.

27:34Tom Holland:Fair enough. One possible influence on him, do you think, is the fact that the local people here are anti-Ataxalpa. Yes. So they had not been backing them. And these are the wanker people.

27:46Dominic Sandbrook:Do you know, I actually, I omitted all mention of these people. The wanker. For precisely this reason, because I thought you would get too much. I don't find it funny at all. School boyish pleasure from the existence of these people.

27:58Tom Holland:There's nothing funny about it. But I think the role of the wanker in this story is one that, you know, we shouldn't overlook.

28:04Dominic Sandbrook:No, I mean, and indeed in this podcast, we shouldn't overlook it at all. Because the wankers will be back, won't they? Yeah, well, they will. I mean, I was hoping they won't, but clearly you're going to bring them back in. It's all about detail, Dominic. It's about the granular level. So anyway, why has Chalko Chima, he hasn't just done it because of the presence of the Huanca. He's also going with them, I think, because he's been completely thrown by the Spaniards' presence, by their very existence. He doesn't know what to do. When they say Atahualpa has sent for you, I mean, he's taking a risk if he doesn't go.

28:39Dominic Sandbrook:So he decides he'll go with them. And as John Hemming says, this decision was a tragic mistake, one of the turning points in the collapse of resistance. to the Spanish invaders. For by riding out of Chaucha with this deceptively small band of strangers, Chalcochima delivered himself into captivity and death. Oh dear. But not at first. At first they treat him with tremendous friendship and they ride together across the great scenery of the Cordillera Blanca, past the sources of the Amazon, all this kind of thing, and they finally get to Cajamarca. And the other Spaniards say, oh brilliant, you're back, great to see you.

29:14Dominic Sandbrook:So Chalcochima at this point probably is beginning to think, did I make the right choice in going with these guys? Because they take him in to see Atahualpa. Chalcochima is overcome with emotion to see the great Inca. And he, and I quote, raised his hands to the sun to give thanks for being allowed to see him again. He went up to him with great reverence, weeping and kissed him on the face, hands and feet. And the other chiefs who had come with him did the same. But Atahualpa won't even look him in the face. Now, this is standard for the Inca. The Inca doesn't normally look at commoners in the eyes, but the Spanish can see that Atahualpa is gutted.

29:49Dominic Sandbrook:That his best commander has just walked straight into captivity alongside him. And actually now for Chalcochima, the smiles on the faces of his Spanish friends begin to fade. It is odd that Atahualpa didn't send him a message to say, don't do it. It's hard when you're communicating only by knotted strings, no? Yeah, I suppose. I mean, this is the issue if they develop writing and maybe a different story. So the Spanish now say to Chalcochima, right, you know, the gloves are off now. Where's your gold? We would like more of your gold. And Chalcochima said, I don't have any. I mean, what gold I have, I brought with me.

30:26Dominic Sandbrook:Soto, and we told, took him aside and threatened to burn him unless he told the truth. He gave the same answer as before. They put up a stake and tied him to it and brought firewood and straw, saying they would set fire to him unless he told the truth. Then there's this terrible scene. Shagachima kind of breaks down and he says, get the emperor. They bring out the emperor. Atahualpa comes out and says, don't worry, don't listen to these Spanish. They're bluffing. They won't burn you. Spanish promptly set him on fire. And we're told - Gusts of laughter. Yeah. They cut him down after a few moments and they dragged him to Anando Pizarro's lodging.

31:00Dominic Sandbrook:So this is the bloke who's been traveling with him. Quote, his legs and arms burned and his tendons shriveled. And we're told that Anando was quite nice to him and tended him.

31:08Tom Holland:I mean, this is a skill, it turns out, the Spaniards have, isn't it, is burning human bodies to just the right degree. Exactly.

31:16Dominic Sandbrook:I like grilling. He's not dead, but I have to tell you that for Chalko Chima, and indeed for Atahualpa, there is not going to be a very happy ending.

31:27Tom Holland:So I think on that note, we should take a break. There is so much to play for, and we will find out who triumphs, the Spaniards or Atahualpa, after the break.

31:38Dominic Sandbrook:Hello, everybody, and welcome to The Book Club, a new podcast from Goalhanger, hosted by me, Dominic Sandbrook.

31:46Tom Holland:And me, Tabitha Syrod. As some of you may know, I've been Dominic's producer on The Rest is History, and we even did a mini-series last year about all things books.

31:55Dominic Sandbrook:And since we enjoyed that so much, we have decided to roll it out as its own show. So it'll be coming out every Tuesday. We'll be doing a different book each time and digging into all the stories behind them.

32:07Tom Holland:And we are going to be talking about the historical contexts behind some of the greatest and most famous books of all time. We're going to be digging into the remarkable people behind them, the unexpected stories behind the stories, and also unraveling the plot of each book a bit and delving into the depths of the story.

32:25Dominic Sandbrook:Now, you don't have to have read the books to listen to the show, but we hope that by the end of each episode, you will be able to pretend to people that you've read them. That is the key thing. And either way, whether you read them or not, we hope that you'll learn lots of fascinating facts. You'll do lots of great stories and maybe, Tabby, the odd laugh.

32:41Tom Holland:We will be looking at thrilling Gothic bodice rippers like Wuthering Heights and Frankenstein, as well as iconic stories like The Great Gatsby or Little Women. And then also some more modern stuff. So Game of Thrones, Normal People, The Hunger Games, Hamnet, all manner of exciting stories.

33:00Dominic Sandbrook:So please join us on our journey into all things books, wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for The Book Club every Tuesday, and hopefully we will see you there.

33:30Tom Holland:from Nespresso. It's innovation you can touch, sense, and taste in every single cup. With a three-second start, easy open lever, and dedicated brew-over-ice button, it's even easier to enjoy your coffee your way. Sip for yourself. Shop Virtuo up exclusively at Nespresso.com.

33:49Dominic Sandbrook:We're leaving today and entering a world of Mickey Mouse waving, princess meeting and greeting, lightsaber clashing, The Twilight Zone Tower of Terror dropping! Banshee flying! Space Mountain launching! Galaxy rewinding! What the hell? Galaxy rewinding!

34:09Tom Holland:Fireworks igniting! World of Other Worlds. For whatever you love, infinite worlds await at the most magical place on Earth. Walt Disney World Resort.

34:25Tom Holland:Hello and welcome back to The Rest is History. It is April 1533, and for weeks now, the gold of the Incas has been rolling into this room that has a white line around it. The gold has to reach that white line, or else Atahualpa is going to be killed. And Dominic, every day that hoard is getting higher, isn't it? Because you've got streams of porters, streams of llamas, and they are just bringing in gold from across Peru and beyond.

34:53Dominic Sandbrook:They are, and that's why Alper is watching with great satisfaction, because with every new convoy, surely the day of his freedom is approaching. But the Gold Porters are not the only new arrivals in Cajamarca. Just before Easter, a familiar face joins this merry party. And this is Pizarro's business partner, Diego del Magro. Yeah. We described in episode one, he's short, he's ugly, he's flamboyant, so he's colourfully dressed, but he's also very boastful and sort of boorish.

35:21Tom Holland:John Rhys Davies.

35:22Dominic Sandbrook:Yes.

35:23Tom Holland:Who played Gimli. Exactly.

35:25Dominic Sandbrook:Now, remember, the deal was that he would get reinforcements in Panama, and he would come along later. And this is precisely what he's done. He's arrived with 150 Spaniards with a load more horses and some royal officials who are basically going to report back to the court in Spain to Charles V. So this has massive implications now for both Pizarro and Atahualpa. So Pizarro now has his business partner on hand, who he has screwed over from the very beginning because he got himself the title of governor, but basically was a commandant of a fort or something title for his business partner. And Almagro throughout this whole thing, he's paranoid that he's going to be cut out of the loot.

36:05Dominic Sandbrook:Now, Atahualpa, when he sees these guys arrive, he obviously needs to recalibrate because clearly there are a lot more Spaniards out there. And he can tell they're not just going to go away when they've got the gold. This is not just a raid. This looks more like an invasion. And at this point, Atahualpa says to Pizarro, are you going home or are you going to stay? I mean, it's been great having you.

36:26Tom Holland:Yeah.

36:27Dominic Sandbrook:When are you leaving?

36:30Tom Holland:Should I check out the train times?

36:32Dominic Sandbrook:And for the first time, Pizarro says to him, we are going to stay and we are going to divide up your workers, your people among ourselves. And this is a huge shock for Atahualpa. Pizarro says, don't worry, we will leave the northern bit, the province of Quito, to you. That's your heartland. It'll be your kingdom. But Atahualpa, for the first time, thinks, I don't believe these guys. They are not going to want a disagreement.

36:57Tom Holland:And is he starting to think, can I even trust them to set me free when the line gets reached? Exactly, exactly.

37:04Dominic Sandbrook:Now, all the time, the gold has been rolling in, as you said. And at the first week of May 1533, Pizarro orders his men to start melting it down. This is an incredible operation. They've built nine huge forges under Spanish supervision. Inca smiths are going to do it. and they are feeding the fires all day, all night, seven days a week for seven weeks with more than 600 pounds of gold a day. So that's a total of 11 tons. And we're talking about vases, figurines, idols, ornaments, necklaces, you name it. These are beautiful artifacts because we know from the very few that were preserved, the high standard of Andean kind of gold craftsmanship.

37:47Dominic Sandbrook:Such a tragedy. Imagine what it would be like to have those things. The Spanish turned them into bars that would be stamped with the royal symbol. And there were going to be£13 ,500 of gold bars,£16 ,000 of silver bars, which are all destined to be shipped back to Spain. Now, you'll remember that I mentioned that Atualpah had offered them two temples. So one is Pachokamak, which we talked about last time, and the other was the Sun Temple of Coricancha in Cusco. And he has now persuaded Pizarro, send some men to Cusco, to the Sun Temple. Cusco is a hell of a long way away, 750 miles across the central Andes.

38:30Dominic Sandbrook:Not for people who've been going 800 miles. Well, I guess, yeah. Yeah, except you're going across the mountains, which is hard. Yeah, true. So when he gets a message from Hernando, his brother, to say Pachokamak is no good, there's no goal, Pizarro says, okay, fine. and we'll do it. And he sends three volunteers, three, I know, three volunteers with an escort all the way across the Andes, south to Cusco. And they get there in early April and they're greeted by Atahualpa's general, Kis Kis, who is occupying Cusco. Now we'll talk a lot about Cusco next time, so we don't need to massively go into it now.

39:02Dominic Sandbrook:But just to talk about the temple, Kodakantra, this was the holiest place that there was for the Incas. It's the Temple of the Sun. The Inca, of course, is the Son of the Sun. There is this herb garden. There's a convent. There's an astronomical observatory. John Hemming calls it the Mecca of the Inca Empire, because pilgrims would come from all over the Andes to visit this place. And even though Qisqis is a northerner who's put Cusco under military occupation, he's shocked when the Spaniards say, we've come to basically rip out the gold from this temple.

39:34Tom Holland:I mean, imagine they turn up in Mecca and say, we've been sent to despoil the mosque. Yeah. That wouldn't go down well.

39:40Dominic Sandbrook:Not at all. And they're very rude. He's very shocked that they're uncouth and they abuse the women of the temples. That's all we're told. I think we can guess, given the Spanish behavior earlier in the last episode, exactly how badly behaved they are with the women of the temples.

39:56Tom Holland:Seems incomprehensible they're not just lynched. I know, and there's only three of them.

40:01Dominic Sandbrook:Insane, isn't it? And the mad thing is, Kis-Kis says, okay, fair enough. And his men fetch tools so that these Spanish guys with crowbars can take these giant gold plates off the walls of the temples.

40:13Tom Holland:I mean, isn't it that Kiskis is actually, he's in command of an occupying force? Yeah. And presumably shares Atahualpa's contempt for what Kuzco represents. I'm sure. So in a sense, maybe the Spaniards are doing dirty work that he can't actually do. I suppose maybe. Maybe, because I cannot comprehend how they would be allowed to do this otherwise.

40:36Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah, maybe. I mean, I think the fact that he's a northerner definitely is a factor, and he's commanding and occupying an army. But even so, he's part of the Inca world. He believes in the cult of the sun. You know, he's part of that cosmological ecosystem. But they tear it all down. So these great plates, they're about two and a half feet long. They weigh five pounds each. They're beautifully decorated, we're told, with images of trees and flowers and things like that. Solid gold. The Spaniards tear it all down. They get hundreds of porters to carry it back. Of course, no wheels, no carts in Peru.

41:08Dominic Sandbrook:Like God for llamas. Yeah. And I mean, they have hundreds of porters carrying these things, literally like trudging across the mountains, carrying these great gold plates. They've got these pallets basically loaded with gold and silver. And when they get back to Cajamarca, Pizarro and the people in Cajamarca just can't believe their eyes. It's this stream of porters with all the gold of Kuzco. £14 ,000 of gold,£26 ,000 of silver, combined 20 metric tons of treasure. And at this point, Atahualpa's ransom is unquestionably the biggest ransom ever paid. You know, there's a sort of rabbit hole of economic history where people have tried to quantify how much this is.

41:47Dominic Sandbrook:At the lowest, it's billions of dollars or pounds in today's money. At the highest, it is tens and tens of billions. I mean, it's almost impossible to put a figure on it.

41:55Tom Holland:And Pizarro is part of that chivalric culture where ransoms are taken for granted. And he is so hit the jackpot with this one.

42:05Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah.

42:05Tom Holland:I mean, it puts Francis I into very, very low rent.

42:10Dominic Sandbrook:It's as though somebody has basically said to him, how much ransom would you like? And he said, I don't know, a hundred billion pounds.

42:16Tom Holland:Billion, zillion, trillion.

42:17Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah. And they've said, okay, we've got it. You know, here it is. The three Spaniards who turn up back in Cajamarca say, do you know the mad thing? This is only a fraction of the gold in Cusco. They said there was so much gold in all the temples of the city that it was marvellous. They would have brought back much more of it, but it would have detained them longer. And they said, we've already taken steps to start hoarding it. We've got a big storehouse there. We've got blokes guarding it. Great. And Pizarro and Almalco say, oh my God, so Cusco's next. So this is a thing, see, they're going to want to go on to Cusco.

42:47Dominic Sandbrook:On the 17th of June, Pizarro starts to share out the gold. A fifth of it is set aside for the crown. After that, all of his horsemen will get 90 pounds of gold. That's 40 kilos. And they'll get 180 pounds of silver, 81 kilos. Anyone who's not a horseman gets half of this, except for the priests and friars who get even less. I don't know why. They're pledged to poverty. I suppose so. And, of course, the big leagues get a lot more. So Anando de Soto gets double. Francisco Pizarro gets seven times what a horseman gets. and he gets Atualpa's solid gold throne, which is very expensive.

43:24Tom Holland:And Dominic, what about Diego Almagro, who's turned up and has been systematically frozen out? So Almagro says to Pizarro,

43:31Dominic Sandbrook:I think the fair thing to do would be to split this equally between us, between your men and my men. And Pizarro says, I don't know, because we kind of did all the dirty work by arriving and capturing Atualpa and you came late. So I think what would be best is for you to get just a little token amount. And this is what happens. He gives him a few trinkets, a few crumbs from his table. Remind me what the balance of power is between them. So, Armagro has turned up with about 150 men. Pizarro has a few more, actually. Pizarro has something like 167, 168.

44:03Tom Holland:Because it's kind of amazing in that situation that they don't turn on each other.

44:06Dominic Sandbrook:Yes. Well, if you're looking for them to turn on each other, Tom, I've got great news for you. There'll be a lot of turning on each other to come. I mean, if I was Armagro. Yeah, you'd go mad. You'd say, what? This was always our deal that I would come later, and I come later now, and you cut me out. There's an argument that Almagro is being a bit naive. This is how conquistadors always behave. They always stab each other in the back, and you have to be on hand. And actually, Pizarro is a shrewd guy. For somebody who's basically illiterate and he's come from nowhere, he's not a fool. Because he straight away knows, I must get the king on side.

44:40Dominic Sandbrook:I don't want to be Cortes and end up in constant lawsuits. I must have royal approval. So he gets his brother, Hernando, and he gives him a written report. Obviously, his secretary's written this for him. And he gives him a load of gold, and he gives him some ornaments. And he says, go back to the coast, go to Panama, then sail on to Spain with all this gold, with this report. Go to see the king. Get him to approve my, you know, to reapprove my governorship of this province, because we cannot afford to be cut out by somebody else. There's a downside, though. if an ando pizarro his brother is going off because at a welper has become great pals with an ando they're both kind of alpha males and they've kind of bonded over i don't know drinking from this skull skulls yeah vampire bat yeah gilets yeah exactly red trousers made of vampire bats while just spitting into the hands of beautiful women watching the rugger together yeah exactly Attawalpa actually bursts into tears.

45:40Dominic Sandbrook:And he says, you know, I'm worried that with you gone, the others will kill me. So he's starting to wake up to that possibility then. And Ando says, I'm sure they won't kill you. No, I've promised you they won't kill you. But once he's gone, Attawalpa gets very miserable. He supposedly sees this comet, which foreshadows his death. I think that probably didn't happen. But what did happen, he is extremely concerned about Almagro. Because Almagro didn't capture him, has not spent time with him. is just impatient to push on to Cuzco and get his own share of the gold. Now, what happens next is a very murky story, so we'll try to find our way through it.

46:14Dominic Sandbrook:One of the murkiest stories of the whole conquest. What happened to Attawelpa? Attawelpa said to Pizarro around this point, you know, you've pretty much got what you came for. Most of the ransom has arrived now. I think you can set me free a little bit, give me a bit more freedom to kind of walk around and stuff. Now, there are stories in some sources that one of the interpreters called Felipeio had fallen in love with one of Atahualpa's mistresses and basically wanted Atahualpa out of the way. So he starts telling the Spanish, oh, Atahualpa is betraying you. Atahualpa is planning to escape. He's planning to team up with Ruminyawe, who's his commander in Quito, who's the guy in the north.

46:54Dominic Sandbrook:It's possible this is just a kind of literary device. This didn't really happen. But even if it didn't happen, there is a genuine issue that it points to, which is the Spanish have become, as time has gone on, more and more anxious about their position in Cajamarca. They've got all this gold now, which they're sitting on, but they're very conscious that they're outnumbered. And they're very worried about an attack from the north. So this guy, Ruminyawe, who's in Ecuador, who is the commander of the army there, they become very worried that he's basically the Jimmy Carter of this story. And he's going to launch a Delta IV style Operation Eagle Claw rescue to spring Attawalpa from his prison in Kajamarca.

47:40Dominic Sandbrook:Now, if they were students of history and they'd listen to our series on the Iranian revolution, they would know there was nothing to worry about. Actually, I have to say, as we'll discover next time, two more different people than Rumin Yawi and Jimmy Carter could not be imagined. I mean, Rumin Yawi would never appear on TV in a cardigans tell you to turn the thermostat down, he would turn you into a drum. That's what he would do. There's a little preview for the next episode. So rumors start to flood into Kayamaka that Ruminyawe is on his way south. So one local chief says to Pizarro, men are coming under a great commander called Ruminyawe, 200 ,000 people from Quito, and 30 ,000 Caribs who eat human flesh.

48:20Tom Holland:Yeah, so the cannibals are coming.

48:21Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah. And the Spanish, of course, take this seriously. Why wouldn't they? It's kind of mad that the Attawelpa's armies haven't attacked them. And surely they think only a matter of time before Attawelpa's armies decide they're going to try and rescue him.

48:34Tom Holland:But I guess ultimately the issue comes down to, are they likely to survive if Attawelpa is dead? Or if they release him, can they trust him to be their protector?

48:46Dominic Sandbrook:That's exactly right.

48:47Tom Holland:I mean, that's ultimately the decision.

48:48Dominic Sandbrook:They can't make up their minds. And Pizarro, I think, in particular, is very conflicted. they want to go to cusco to get more gold so what do they do with ato alba they could leave him behind that's so risky he'll just turn on them surely they can see he's a hard man or number two they could take him with them across the mountains but that's risky too here we're focused for you know resistance people will try to rescue him so dangerous the obvious answer the simplest and cleanest just get rid kill him that's what cortez and co did with montezuma i think that's what Cortes and Co. did. The only thing that sort of cuts against that is if they wanted to just get rid of him and all this stuff about Rumi Nyawa is a pretext for doing what they always wanted to do, why does Pizarro hang around?

49:33And why are there so many accounts of him crying and being conflicted

49:38Dominic Sandbrook:about it all? We have one account. He goes to see Attawelpa and he says, I've heard rumors that your men are going to come and rescue you and you're communicating with them through your knotted strings. And Atahualpa scoffed at him. Are you joking? What chance would my men have against men as brave as you? Stop mocking me like this. And clearly some of the Spaniards do believe him. So one of the younger men, a guy called Pedro Catanio, remembers that Atahualpa called Pizarro's bluff. If any warriors did come from Quito, they would be coming on my orders. Find out whether it's true. If it is true, then go ahead.

50:11Dominic Sandbrook:You can execute me. And the Spanish sources say that Pizarro found this very stressful. He couldn't decide what to do. He ordered Atahualpa to be chained by the neck at this point to stop him escaping.

50:23Tom Holland:Is there not a kind of legal dimension to this? Because we've talked throughout how legalistic the Spaniards are. His entire governorship depends on royal approval. And killing an emperor who you've promised life to, I mean, it's not a good look, is it, from the perspective of the Spanish court.

50:42Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah.

50:43Tom Holland:I mean, it may not just be kind of humanitarian instincts. It may be a genuine anxiety that he's torn between kind of legalistic imperatives and his sense of what would be practically the best thing to do, which would be to kill him.

50:56Dominic Sandbrook:That's absolutely right. I think, as we will see, he knows perfectly well that Charles V will go ballistic if he finds out that Pizarro has murdered a monarch. I mean, even in this Aztec story, Cortes had to make up a load of nonsense about Montezuma rebelling, having agreed in order to justify murdering Montezuma. And I think this is exactly what Pizarro is facing right now. Mid-July, 1533, he calls a big meeting to decide Atahualpa's fate, and all the big guns are there. We're told that Pizarro and the men who had been there from the very beginning want to keep Atahualpa alive. They say it's honorable to keep him alive.

51:35Dominic Sandbrook:They gave him their word because of the ransom. The ransom's been paid. We should keep our side of the bargain. They say he's a really useful hostage. Why would you give up a hostage like this? They point out not a single Spaniard has been attacked or injured since they took him prisoner. Clearly, this is working, so let's keep him. And some of them actually clearly are fond of him. We know from the Chronicles and whatnot that there were people who spent their evenings talking to him through the interpreters, you know, and actually said, he's not such a bad guy. I don't think we should kill him.

52:06Dominic Sandbrook:But the people who've come with Alvarado take a very different view. They've got no investment in him. They say he'll be a focus for resistance. You know, the longer this goes on, the more likely it is that his people will turn on us. And crucially, we want to go to Cusco to get our share of the gold. Can we please stop hanging around? Can we get rid? The Spaniards can't agree. And Pizarro sends out a scouting party under Hernando de Soto to see if this northern army really is coming. And while de Soto is away, the tension mounts. It's cut to the chase. There's an evening when they're playing cards and a Spaniard comes in and says, there's more rumors.

52:45Dominic Sandbrook:There's people saying there are Inca troops approaching the town. And Almagro and Pizarro have a huge row. And then a couple of evenings later, there is another such incident. Local people say they've seen the villagers outside fleeing before an Inca army. The Inca army will be in Cacamaca in two days. The moment has come. Now, this army does not exist. There is no attack on Cacamaca. But as John Hemming says in his book, the key to the story is the hysteria and the paranoia that has now seized the Spaniards. They're in the middle of nowhere. They're thousands of miles from home. They're surrounded by 12 million people.

53:25Dominic Sandbrook:They're absolutely terrified now this gold is going to be taken from them and they're going to be attacked. They've never fought an Inca army, actually. They've attacked effectively unarmed Incas in the square, but that's not the same as a pitched battle where the Incas are attacking them. I mean, I'd be paranoid in their shoes. Of course you would. Of course you would. So they have another meeting. Almagro and Co. demand another meeting. And this time, it's clear that Pizarro is outnumbered, and the royal officials crucially back Almagro up and say, yeah, Atahualpa must die. And so Pizarro agrees.

53:58Dominic Sandbrook:I don't doubt the sources that Pizarro is very reluctant, because they're kind of unanimous on this point. And he says, fine, quote, Atahualpa must die since he had broken the peace and plotted treason in bringing men to kill the Christians. Now, the Spanish sources disagree on one thing, and actually historians themselves now disagree, was there a trial or wasn't there? Because some said there was, some said there wasn't. I think it's because the conquistadors are so legalistic, they're always so anxious about being drawn into American-style lawsuits, that they have some kind of rudimentary court-martial, because we do have accounts of it.

54:35Tom Holland:I mean, some kind. So basically a kangaroo court.

54:38Dominic Sandbrook:Kangaroo court. Pizarre and Almagro are the judges, and there's a prosecutor who's basically barking out questions at Atahualpa. Did you kill Huascar? Did you force your subjects to sacrifice women and children to your gods? Were your wars just? Have you been giving orders for the Spaniards to be killed? Some of the Spanish sources say the questions were ridiculous and the interpreters were deliberately mangling the questions and Atahualpa's answers to portray him in the worst possible light. Atahualpa, for all that we've said, he's a very hard man. He's also a very emotional man. He breaks down in tears and he says, I can give you twice as much gold and silver as I've already given you if you'll spare me.

55:18Dominic Sandbrook:And we're told that Pizarro was crying as well. But Pizarro at the end says, you have been found guilty of idolatry, heresy, regicide, fratricide, treason, polygamy, and incest. I mean, they really are throwing the book at him. And the sentence for all this is death. And because he had committed treason, He should die by burning unless he converted to Christianity. Now, this is very worrying for Atahualpa because die by burning is unthinkable for an Inca. If he's going to live on in paradise, in Hanapancha, as the Incas call it, then his body cannot be burned. Because you can't get into paradise if you've been burned.

56:01Tom Holland:And they mummify the bodies, don't they?

56:03Dominic Sandbrook:Yes, you must be embalmed. if you're the emperor and we will talk about this in the next episode they will mummify you and they'll give you your own palace in cusco and they'll bring you out to festivals for all weddings and things and parades and processions and things you'll have your own servants and stuff when you're a mummy this is terrible if fatua can't enjoy this future joy now he doesn't have much time to think about it the trial ends so-called trial if there is a trial ends in the early hours of Saturday the 26th of July. And the Spaniards say, we want to get this done by tonight. Basically, A, in case Atahualpa's rescued, or B, in case Pizarro changes his mind.

56:40Dominic Sandbrook:And so that evening, night's falling. Atahualpa is led out into the square in Cajamarca, the place where he had been captured before this big crowd, and he's tied to a stake. It's an absolutely kind of heart-rending scene, even though he is a bad man in some ways. He's sobbing like a baby. He says, I want to entrust my children to Pizarro's protection. And Valverde, the Dominican friar, says to him, you know, forget about your children, accept baptism and die like a Christian. We're told, Atahualpa continued to persist in commending his sons with great weeping, indicating their size with his hand, showing by the signs he made and by his words that they were small and that he was leaving them in Quito.

57:20Dominic Sandbrook:And eventually Valverde says, well, you know, So Pizarro will look after them as though they're his own children. And Atoalpa says, fine, in that case, I'll accept baptism and I'll become a Christian.

57:32Tom Holland:And the irony there is that he's doing that to preserve his supernatural potency in the kingdom of the gods.

57:43Dominic Sandbrook:Yes, exactly. Valverde then baptizes him and he gives him the name Francisco of all names. And then he's not going to be burned. The guards tie a cord around Atahualpa's neck. And as Valverde leads the Spaniards in reciting the creed, Atahualpa is garrotted. So that is the end of him. But a couple more details. First of all, the Spanish, of course, had promised him he would not be burned. Now, they don't burn him to ashes. They grill him. They give him a grilling. And then they leave his grilled body in the square overnight, quote for everyone to learn of his death as a basically a message and that grilling i think is a gesture you know you and i talked about this before we started recording i think this is a gesture of contempt for him probably by the al-magreistas so he's buried isn't he in the local

58:36Tom Holland:church yes but there are stories that people rescue the body take it to ecuador up to quito and mummify it yeah and there are kind of archaeologists who go on a indiana jones type

58:49Dominic Sandbrook:Yes, exactly.

58:50Tom Holland:Maybe out there, Atahualpa's mummified body. Maybe. Lightly grilled is still there. Who knows?

58:57Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah, I mean, it's perfectly possible. There is not, I think, straight away, but I think in subsequent decades, there starts to be this kind of cult of Atahualpa and a belief that maybe he might come back from the dead. Pedro Pizarro records a very weird scene. Basically, two of Attawapa's sisters got into Pizarro's apartment and, quote, began to call for Attawapa, searching very softly for him in all the corners. But seeing that he did not answer, they went out making a great lamentation. I disabused them and told them that dead men do not return. The really interesting thing, though, is the reaction of the Spanish themselves.

59:31Dominic Sandbrook:Remember I said that they'd sent off Hernando de Soto to look for this northern army. Soto gets back and he says, there's no northern army. I mean, it's been made up. There's no Inca troops advancing on the town. And then he discovers they've killed Atahualpa, and he goes absolutely ballistic. And he says, how could you do this behind my back when I was gone? I'm meant to be the number two man in this expedition. You've killed this guy who was our chief hostage and one of our biggest assets. Now, meanwhile, Pizarro, one of his secretaries, writes a report for him to Charles V, saying, I have executed a monarch, but I'm just going to explain exactly why I've done it.

1:00:08Dominic Sandbrook:and the reaction in Spain was that Pizarro had behaved badly not that Pizarro had done the right thing but the Pizarro had let Spain down so there's a judge in Panama called Gaspard Espinosa who's writing all the time to Charles V basically sending him reports of what these guys are getting up to in Peru and he writes to Charles V and he says the Spanish and Cajamarca are totally out of control their greed is so great as to be insatiable the more the native chiefs give the more the spaniards kill or torture them to give even more he says they should never have killed atahualpa a man who'd fallen into their hands and who'd done no harm to any spaniard they could have sent him here to panama with his wives and servants as his rank deserved we would all have honored him and treated him like a great noble of castile and actually this becomes this established this will surprise some listeners who just think of this you know who have subscribed to the black legend of Spain, of 16th century Spain, as uniquely cruel and greedy and whatnot.

1:01:07Dominic Sandbrook:Most Spanish chroniclers agreed that Pizarro had done the wrong thing. So this is Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo in the 1530s. The killing of so great a prince was an infamous disservice to God and the emperor, an act of great ingratitude and outstanding evil. And this is probably most influential of all the Spanish writers about Peru, Pedro Tierra de León in the 1550s. the most evil deed the Spaniards have done in all the empire of the Indies. It is widely vituperated and it's considered a grave sin. And this is definitely what the king himself thought, Charles V. Because when he wrote back to Pizarro, he said, we have been displeased by the death of Atahualpa since he was a monarch, and particularly as it was done in the name of justice.

1:01:50Dominic Sandbrook:We will seek more information about this matter and then order what is necessary. And if you're Pizarro reading this, you surely think, oh no.

1:02:00Tom Holland:And that's probably what Pizarro is worrying about.

1:02:02Dominic Sandbrook:Exactly that reaction. Atahualpa is dead and Pizarro's position is looking a little bit rickety. So his brother Hernando, on whom he relied, has gone back to Spain with some of the gold. His chief lieutenant, Hernando de Soto, is furious with him about the death of Atahualpa. And his partner, Diego de Almagro, is absolutely furious. Yes. Yeah, he's livid. Yeah, livid. He is livid about the unequal division of the treasure. And now Pizarro and his men are facing their biggest challenge yet. Attawalpa is dead and the Inca Empire is leaderless. So they need to find a new puppet on whom they can rely.

1:02:40Dominic Sandbrook:And Tom, their road now lies south, up into the Andes, across the Inca heartland to the city of gold, Cusco. But what awaits them there is darker and bloodier and more dramatic than even they could possibly have imagined.

1:02:59Tom Holland:Well, dear listeners, if you like darkness and bloodstained drama, then wow, have got a treat for you in the next episode. members of the rest is history club of course can hear it right away together with the final two episodes in this series and if you're not a member of the rest is history club then you can join them by going to the rest is history.com to sign up but for now hasta luego bye bye

1:03:41Dominic Sandbrook:Rinse knows that greatness takes time, but so does laundry. So Rinse will take your laundry and hand deliver it to your door, expertly cleaned. And you can take the time pursuing your passions.

1:03:52Tom Holland:Time once spent sorting and waiting, folding and queuing, now spent challenging and innovating and pushing your way to greatness. So pick up the Irish flute or those calligraphy pens or that daunting Beef Wellington recipe card and leave the laundry to us. Rinse. It's time to be great.