678. Britain: God Save the King (Part 2)

17:36Tom Holland:His conclusions are essentially, I think, today accepted, as far as I can tell, by musicologists as being pretty conclusive. So first of all, he nails down the precise point at which the song goes viral. And this is in the autumn of 1745. And 1745 is one of the most dramatic years in the whole of 18th century British history. because on the 23rd of July 1745, Prince Charles Edward Stuart, who is better known as Bonny Prince Charlie, had landed on an island off the west coast of the Scottish Highlands. So Bonny Prince Charlie was the grandson of James VII of Scotland, who was also James II of England.

18:24Tom Holland:And back in 1688, in what the British came to call the Glorious Revolution, he had been forced into exile essentially for being too Catholic, too absolutist, too keen to model himself on the example of the Sun King, the kind of great French absolutist king. And Bonny Prince Charlie's aim in landing in the Highlands was to claim the British throne back for the Stuarts, the line of James II for his father, the old pretender. And to achieve this, Bonny Prince Charlie needs to claim the throne back for the Stuarts from the dynasty that has replaced the Stuarts. And this is the house of Hanover. And specifically, it is one of the many Georges that reign in the 18th century.

19:12Tom Holland:And this is George II. George II is the king of Great Britain. He is also the elector of Hanover. So he's a German, but more saliently from the point of view of the British elites, he is a Protestant, whereas the Stuarts are Catholic. And so at stake in the autumn of 1745, when Bonnie Prince Charlie has landed in Scotland and is preparing an army to attack the Hanoverian monarchy, you've got two rival versions of monarchy. And the first is the Stuart vision of monarchy. The Stuarts claim they are the rightful ruling dynasty because their legitimacy derives from God and from heredity. So they are descended from Mary, Queen of Scots, and before that, the line of the Stuarts reaching back all the way into the Middle Ages.

19:59Tom Holland:And essentially, you may not like their religion, you may not like their absolutist trends, but God has decreed that they should be king and you can't just kind of sack them because you don't like that. And this is the view of lots of people still in Britain. And we have actually done a series about one of those people already this year, and that is Samuel Johnson. Yeah, the Tory tradition. Tory traditions. James Boswell as well, his biographer, both of them were Jacobites. So Jacobites named after Jacobus, the Latin for James. But then the other view of monarchy is the Hanoverian one. The supporters of the Hanoverian monarchy, George II, they say, well, the Hanoverians are the rightful ruling dynasty of Britain because their legitimacy derives less from heredity than from an act of parliament.

20:46Tom Holland:And that is to transform the crown not into an inheritance that derives from divine right, you know, the favour of God or whatever, but it's specifically a gift of parliament. And Britain is a Protestant country and therefore it needs a Protestant king. And those are the two visions of monarchy that are kind of being brought together in 1745. So the nature and character of monarchy in Britain is a massively live issue, and it's threatening a civil war.

21:16Dominic Sandbrook:But one vision is seen as more modern and is more widely accepted in the prosperous kind of south of Great Britain, isn't it? And that is the Hanoverian model, what you might call the Whig model, the idea that the crown gets its legitimacy from parliament. But that's not the case on the periphery in the wilder parts, which is precisely why Bonnie Prince Charlie is headed for the Highlands of Scotland.

21:41Tom Holland:Yes, where actually he does tremendously well because the clans there kind of flock to his cause and his banner. And by the autumn of 1745, Bonnie Prince Charlie seems to have the whole of Scotland at his feet. So he's captured Edinburgh. He's defeated a Hanoverian army at a place called Preston Pans, about 10 miles outside Edinburgh. And he is preparing to invade England. And the news of this has reached London, which is a city overwhelmingly loyal to the Hanoverian settlement. And there is massive panic. There are kind of runs on banks. There are loads of caricatures showing terrifying Scotsmen in kilts kind of advancing on London.

22:24Tom Holland:absolute mood of trauma. But this trauma generates immense effusions of pro-Hanovarian sentiment. They're rallying to the Hanoverian flag. And it is this mood of pro-Hanovarian mingled panic and enthusiasm that Percy Sculls, in his book on God Save the King, demonstrated was when God Save the King first kind of erupts onto the national stage. And when I say national stage, I kind of mean it literally, because it makes its debut as a kind of great national song at a theatre, Dominic, where we have done a show.

23:08Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah, the Theatre Royal Drury Lane, no less. So one of my very favourite theatres. And we can date this precisely,

23:15Tom Holland:can't we to can is it september september 1745 28th of september 1745 and an announcement appeared in the general advertiser and i will read it we hear mr lacy master of his majesty's company of comedians at the theater royal in drury lane has applied for leave to raise 200 men in defense of his majesty's person and government in which the whole company of players are willing to engage. So that is, they are rallying to the defense of George II. And that same evening at the Theatre Royal, they're staging a performance of Ben Johnson's comedy, The Alchemist. And everyone sits in the audience and watches it.

23:51Tom Holland:And it ends, lots of applause, the curtain comes down. And then before people can leave their seats in Theatre Royal, the curtain goes back up. It kind of rises unexpectedly. And we are told by another newspaper, the Daily Advertiser, what happens next. The audience were agreeably surprised by the gentleman belonging to that house performing the anthem of God Save Our Noble King. The universal applause it met with, being encored with repeated huzzas, we love a huzzar, sufficiently denoted in how just and abhorrence they hold the arbitrary schemes of our invidious enemies and detest the despotic attempts of papal power.

24:31Tom Holland:So what you've got in this scene is actors who have volunteered to defend King George and Protestant freedom against the designs of the Stuarts in the form of Bonnie Prince Charlie, the Pope, menacing Highlanders in kilts, all these kind of terrifying enemies. they're standing there on the stage in london's preeminent theater and they are singing this incredibly patriotic song and obviously if you are a fan of the hanoverian settlement as everyone is in this theater i mean this is absolute catnip you couldn't be happier about it you know we've

25:07Dominic Sandbrook:got a lot of listeners who are actors themselves so the actor samuel west is a listener to this i would i would pay good money to see him standing on stage belting out god save the king having recruited all his mates to join in to fight for the king against britain's enemies i would pay

25:26Tom Holland:enormous sums of money to see him doing that and they keep doing this night after night yeah and it generates massive enthusiasm among the theater going public of london and it starts to spread so by the 10th of october the great rival of the theater royal in drury lane which is the theater in covent garden they start singing god save the king you know if you can't beat them join them It's gone viral. And it starts to spread out into the provinces. So by the 4th of November, this new craze for singing God Save the King has reached Bath. We have reports. And by the end of the following year, so by which point, Bonnie Prince Charlie has launched his abortive invasion of England.

26:06Tom Holland:He's turned back at Derby. He's been defeated at the Battle of Culloden. He has fled Scotland forever, disguised as a maid. This song is being heard everywhere. And I think it's no exaggeration to call it the first pop song. The first pop song. It is sung everywhere in a way that I think songs had not previously been. Okay. It is easily the most effective piece of propaganda in the whole story of the Jacobite invasion. It's a massive kind of popular triumph of pro-Hanovarian sentiment. And so, obviously, George II thinks this is great. I'm suddenly the star of a pop song. I mean, what's not to like?

26:45Tom Holland:Who wouldn't like that? But is there perhaps a twist? Of course there is, always. This whole kind of emergence of God Save the King as a pro-Hanoverian anthem, it is shadowed by a certain irony. Because the 28th of September 1745, when it is sung on the stage of the Theatre Royal, that may have been when God Save the King first hits the West End. But as Skolls acknowledges in his book, the song itself is much older. We know when it goes viral, but we still don't know when it was written or who wrote it. So Scholes is very contemptuous of the idea that a single composer, whether it's John Bull, whether it's Henry Bursell, whether it's anyone who you can put a name to, that anyone named had written the melody.

27:29Tom Holland:And his argument is that it emerges communally and that its true origins will never be known. And I gather that musicologists today still agree. And just to reiterate, I mean, that is what makes it perfect if you're a fan of the British Constitution, because it's organic. It's organic. It's kind of risen up from the hearts of the people. So that's the tune. What about the words? This is where the irony really kicks in, because Skull, in his book, quotes a letter that was written on the 10th of October, 1745 to David Garrick, the greatest actor of the day. And in this letter, surprise is expressed by the writer of the letter, the sudden craze for God save the king.

28:10Tom Holland:The guy who's writing to Garrick says, these are the very words and music of an old anthem that was sung in St. James's chapel for King James II. King James II is the Catholic absolute, his grandfather of Bonnie Prince Charlie. So he is the kind of uber Jacobite. Skulls quotes other contemporary letters, other contemporary sources, and these are all making the same claim. That God Save the King had not originally been a Hanoverian song. It had been a Jacobite song. And he has this brilliant phrase, the British national anthem is a turncoat. It's gone from being a Jacobite anthem to being a Hanoverian anthem.

28:50Tom Holland:So, absolute scenes.

28:52Dominic Sandbrook:Anthems are always malleable. So all through these six episodes, we'll be doing stories about anthems that were rewritten or reinterpreted. We've already had examples when we did Star Spangled Banner. But, I mean, one of the things about God Save the King is, I mean, we've already rewritten it ourselves in our own lifetimes because we switched from God Save the Queen to God Save the King, didn't we? Without even really thinking about it. It's not like somebody told us to do it. It just was a natural thing to do. So because there's no – am I right in saying there's no approved state-sanctioned text?

29:23Tom Holland:There is no authorised version. So you will find a version on, say, the royal family's website. But it's not kind of legally prescribed in the way that the Marseillaise is. We heard the legislation required to inscribe Star Spangled Banner as the American national anthem. And because of that, it's always been incredibly easy for people to rewrite. Right. So those lines that I quoted from the newspaper report when it was first sung on the stage of Drury Lane in 1745, I mean, they are ambiguous. So just to repeat them, God save our Lord, the King, long live our noble King. I mean, it's not clear which King that's referring to.

30:03Tom Holland:I mean, it could be the Stuart King as well as the Hanoverian King. Actually, if you're not naming the king, if you're not specifying who the king is, it's pretty easy to appropriate it on both sides. That said, what becomes the second verse is clearly, I think, written by Hanoverian supporters. So to remind people the second verse, may he defend our laws and ever give us cause to sing with heart and voice, God save the king. That is clearly a celebration of the Hanoverian settlement. Well, the thing about defending laws is code, isn't it, really? praising a king who is willing to uphold parliamentary sovereignty, the laws that are issued by parliament.

30:43Tom Holland:So it is absolutely not a celebration of, say, the divine right of kings.

30:47Dominic Sandbrook:That's a nice riposte to people who say they don't like God save the king because it implies fealty to an absolute monarch or something like that. It absolutely doesn't. It's a tribute to the constitutional settlement of 1688-89. So the king in parliament.

31:03Tom Holland:Yeah.

31:04Dominic Sandbrook:It's pure wiggery.

31:05Tom Holland:That's what it is. Well, not just wiggery. There is scope there, even for those who are more radical than the Whigs over the course of the Napoleonic Wars, to feel that, yeah, we can get behind this song as a kind of properly unifying anthem. So obviously, royalists can sing it, but so too, on occasion, can radicals who are pushing at the absolute limits of what is viewed by the British establishment as politically acceptable, because they can appeal to the king as defender of their rights actually against parliament, against the Whigish government or the Tory government or whatever. And there is an amazing example of this that happens four years after the Battle of Waterloo, so in 1819.

31:47Tom Holland:And God Save the King is played by a brass band at a great mass meeting that is held in Manchester to demand universal suffrage. And this mass meeting is charged by the local cavalry and people die. And this massacre comes to be called the Peterloo Massacre because it's held at St. Peter's Fields in Manchester. It's one of the great foundational moments in the emergence of a kind of radical tradition in Britain. But there you have God Save the King being sung. So it has mass popularity. And when foreign visitors come to Britain and they hear this song being sung basically everywhere, in theatres, in pubs, in the street, whatever, at meetings, none of them have any doubt that they are listening to something novel.

32:32Tom Holland:But nothing like this really has kind of emerged before. And to quote Skulls again, from Roman times, the world had known the visible national symbol of the flag. Henceforth, it was to know the audible national symbol of the song. And because I suppose Britain emerges from the Napoleonic Wars with such incredible prestige, there's a feeling that it has triumphed over France with its Marseillaise. God Save the King, or at least the tune of God Save the King, not the words, but the tune, comes to be seen as something that aspirational countries other than Britain should buy into. And so they start adopting the melody of God Save the King.

33:14Tom Holland:And in fact, this precedes the Napoleonic Wars. It's something that's been going on throughout the second half of the 18th century. So Holland has done it. Denmark, a host of German states do it, including Prussia. Russia briefly gets in on the act. Then after Napoleon, it was Switzerland and Greece. And in all, the melody of God Save the King, so not the words, but the melody, ends up being adopted at one point or another by some 20 states. And these states range from Iceland to Hawaii. So I had no idea about this. It's kind of stupefying.

33:49Dominic Sandbrook:Lichtensteins still have it, don't they? because I remember England playing Liechtenstein and it being an amusing quirk that the same tune was played twice in the two national anthems. Yeah, and the England fans boo it

34:00Tom Holland:when it's the Liechtenstein national anthem and then they cheer it when it's the English one.

34:04Dominic Sandbrook:Ah, like you're proud to be English.

34:05Tom Holland:Yeah. And actually, I think in Switzerland as well, God Save the King provided the tune for the Swiss national anthem up until, I think, the 1960s. So to quote Scholes, Dominic, we can actually claim that on that Saturday night in September 1745, The British invented national anthems. So hooray for us. Yeah, huzzah for us. Or is it huzzah? Because, of course, Britain is not competing in the World Cup. England and Scotland are. And this has certain consequences, which we will be exploring after the break.

34:44Dominic Sandbrook:Exciting. Come back after the break.

34:49Dominic Sandbrook:this episode is brought to you by the times and the sunday times tom as another summer of top international football returns it's truly incredible isn't it to think about how much

35:01Tom Holland:the world has changed between the various tournaments looking back to when uh england hosted back in 1966 everyone in the crowd supporting england were waving union jacks So what fascinating trends does that illustrate?

35:16Dominic Sandbrook:And I suppose the last time the United States hosted the tournament was in 1994. And the mood in America in the early 1990s, you know, the Cold War was over. Clinton was in the White House. I was there for that. I was in Boston. Really? I mean, that's an aspect of the story that's very rarely reported on your presence. I know. So you know what this reminds me of, Tom? It reminds me that the future is always uncertain. You never know what's coming. But the facts need not be uncertain. And when the world feels like it's moving too fast, the Times and the Sunday Times empower you to make smarter, more confident decisions.

35:50Tom Holland:Click or tap the banner now to learn more or visit thetimes.com.

36:00Tom Holland:Hello, everybody. Now, as those of you who are good children will know, here in Britain on the 21st of June, it's Father's Day.

36:10Dominic Sandbrook:but not just here in Britain. It's also Father's Day on the 21st of June in the United States, in Canada, and in the Republic of Ireland. So those are four countries that are united by dads who love to listen to The Rest is History.

36:26Tom Holland:And that is why we are offering an amazing 25 % Father's Day discount on the subscription price to The Rest is History Club, because we are

36:40Dominic Sandbrook:all heart so treat the peter the great in your own life this father's day to early access to full series you get say early access that you get that with a membership you get bonus episodes you get ad free listening you get access to tickets for live shows basically you get an entire host of supplementary benefits and that i think is what a lot of patriarchs want isn't it

37:04Tom Holland:It absolutely is, because I think nothing says Happy Father's Day quite like the chance to listen to six solid hours ad-free about the First World War.

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37:54Dominic Sandbrook:This episode is brought to you by Wise. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee and what might be hidden away in the small print. Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas, or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate, an easy transfer, and no surprises along the way. WISE keeps things simple. WISE is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than 160 countries and with over 40 currencies. Most transfers arrive instantly. me wise uses the mid-market exchange rate like the one you see on google with no markups or hidden fees so when money needs to move you can see the rate know the fee and get on with it join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the wise app today be smart get wise t's and c's apply

38:54Tom Holland:god save the queen the fascist regime it made you a moron potential h-bomb god save the queen she ain't a human being and there's no future in england's dreaming so apologies everybody that

39:12Dominic Sandbrook:was uh johnny rotten john lyden there singing god save the queen the sex pistols hit released during the Silver Jubilee of Elizabeth II in 1977. Now, whether it reached number one or number two is still very controversial among historians, isn't it, Tom? It is. The accepted wisdom now is that it actually was number one and then the chart was fixed by the BBC to relegate it to number two. I actually think it's perfectly plausible that it actually finished at number two and that a lot of this is just based on urban legend. However, that's not the issue. This was an attack on the monarchy. So it appeared to be accusing the queen of presiding over a fascist regime and of not being a human being.

39:56Dominic Sandbrook:And no future. Yes. But it's an attack on Jim Callaghan's Britain, which is sad. But actually, this is a tribute to the power of this song. So you described God Save the King in the first half. You said it was no exaggeration to say it was the world's first pop song. But it's a pop song that is still going strong in the 1970s. Yeah. It's the kind of longest running British earworm, I guess.

40:20Tom Holland:Right. That we've had in our culture.

40:22Dominic Sandbrook:Interesting that they don't copy the tune. They copied the words, but not the tune, the Sex Pistols.

40:26Tom Holland:I think because it's so famous in Britain that you don't need the tune. You just say, God save the Queen. And it kind of evokes the whole kind of majesty and prestige of the national anthem by this point, kind of over 200 years old. And in the course of that time, it's picked up a lot of baggage so even before uh the sex pistols parody it yeah it has for a long time been snared at by intellectuals i think in particular by the bien-pensant bien-pensant who you're so keen on and it's seen by them as basically a song for blimps that it's fusty and it's dusty and it's It's embarrassing. And the person who comments on this most famously is George Orwell, who in 1941, so one year before Scholes published his book on God Save the King, famously wrote, it is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during God Save the King than of stealing from a poor box.

41:30Dominic Sandbrook:And that's still true today. I mean, absolutely, that's true today. Sure.

41:34Tom Holland:You were talking in the previous episode about the reverence that Americans show the National Anthem. There's an obvious contrast there. So you talked about Jimi Hendrix playing Star Spangled Banner at Woodstock in 1969 and generating great controversy. The following year, Jimi Hendrix is in Britain on the Isle of Wight playing at the festival there a few weeks before he dies. And there he plays God Save the Queen in exactly the same way. And it has no reaction whatsoever. Nobody. It's interesting, isn't it? Nobody cares at all. And I think to this day, I mean, how could you say that? Maybe people have a Remainer-ish tendency.

42:12Tom Holland:Might that be the?

42:12Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah. People who enjoy our sister podcast. The rest is politics.

42:16Tom Holland:Yes. I think people who take the national anthem seriously are seen as kind of quite low status. I mean, if you worry about the color of your passport or you're an enthusiast for the national anthem, you're seen as it's a bit kind of below the salt. So there's a classic example of this happened a few months after the Brexit vote in 2016, when the Tory MP for Romford, which is in Essex. So, you know, not the kind of place where BBC presenters necessarily go very often. This is a guy called Andrew Rossendale, and he called for the BBC to end its nightly broadcast by playing God Save the Queen, which is what the BBC had always used to do.

42:57Tom Holland:Yes. And it had been kind of abandoned. and kirstie walk uh presenter of news night on bbc2 who i think had not voted for brexit safe to say she said we're incredibly happy to oblige good night and then they play the sex

43:10Dominic Sandbrook:pistols god save the queen so it's massive bad hilarious see controversially this will i don't i don't think this will astound listeners because this is just playing to my image but it's actually what i genuinely think i think lots of countries actually do end their tv coverage with the national anthem and i don't actually think it's a weird thing to do i think it's good for social cohesion and i don't even think i've been in american high schools where they pledge religious the flag and they do all that kind of stuff and that the standard british thing to do is to sneer at it and george alwell of course commented on that but actually i don't think it is worthy of being sneered at i think it's actually quite good for people to have collective symbols and a sense

43:46Tom Holland:of collective loyalty anyway there you go a fair point well made but the fact remains that people in Britain do tend to sneer at the national anthem. And so why is that? Why are people ready to sneer at it here than, I don't know, in France or America or whatever? And I get the kind of whole range of possible reasons. I mean, one undoubtedly is they find it boring. Musicians have been complaining about God Save the King for a very long time. So Gilbert, as in Gilbert and Sullivan, complained that it was contemptible doggerel. Although actually many, many, I mean, greater composers than Gilbert and Sullivan have actually thought it was rather good.

44:22Tom Holland:So Bach and Beethoven and Benjamin Britten, they all composed variations on it.

44:27Dominic Sandbrook:That's good enough for me.

44:28Tom Holland:So yeah, the sense that it's a dirge, as we said, I think that's one reason why people look down on it. Another reason might be that they're Republicans. So the king bit of God save the king. And even during the revolutionary wars with France, we said that it was a unifying anthem. But there were those in Britain who identified with the revolution who were not persuaded that to sing God Save the King was in some way a progressive thing to do. And in that period, some of the parodies of God Save the King were much more savage than anything that the sex pistols came up with. So I'll sing one here.

44:59Tom Holland:Long live great guillotine, who shaves off head so clean of queen or king, whose power is so great that every tool of state dreadeth his mighty weight. wonderful thing. So, I mean, Jack Aubrey would not like that, would he?

45:18Dominic Sandbrook:He would not. And that takes us back to that last episode about the Star Spangled Banner, that anthems are never fixed, that people can always reinterpret them and adapt them and put in new words to suit their own political ends. And they will do throughout the rest of this series. Yeah.

45:32Tom Holland:And this is obviously happening throughout this period because all these other countries are coming up with their own words as well. So, God save the king, the problem might be with the king or it might be with god you know you might be a secularist you think you know we're in a modern age it's all musty dusty fusty superstition we don't want to bother with god does the whole british empire thing god save the king became the anthem of the british empire um it was the anthem of the dominions so south africa of australia of new zealand of canada um and all those countries have evolved alternative anthems and so i think that generates a sense perhaps that god save the king is something antiquated to be got rid of and then there's the a kind of whole trend in historical takes on great britain as a kind of early modern state that has never managed to evolve so this is a thesis that's particularly associated with tom nairn uh linda collie who wrote a famous book called britain's kind of essentially arguing for this the idea that Great Britain was a kind of leader in the early modern period, but has never really gone the full course and is still is kind of still born as a modern state.

46:46Tom Holland:And therefore, God save the king is kind of representative of this. The fact that we're still seeing something from the 18th century is an embarrassment. So that's another reason. This is such a sort of 1990s. It is very 1990s. Yes, very, very 1990s. But then there is a simpler reason. We're doing this in honour of the Football World Cup. And that is that you might feel uncomfortable about singing God Save the King because you are either a Scottish or English player or fan. And you are at the 2026 World Cup because this, I think, it does raise issues for both the Scottish and English teams to sing God Save the King.

47:29Tom Holland:National anthems are obviously a really important part of the World Cup, which is why we're doing the series. We wouldn't be doing it otherwise. I don't think we've said this, but I mean, people who are listening, you've never watched a match in the Football World Cup. Before every match, the two teams who are playing, you know, they line up and they sing along to their respective anthems. Or if you are from Spain or Bosnia and Herzegovina, you hum along because those are anthems that don't actually have any words. And for most countries, this is, you know, is not controversial. Every country pretty much has a national anthem.

48:02Tom Holland:But there is an issue for Scotland and for England, because both of them are constituent parts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. And that means that they have the same national anthem, namely God Save the King, which is the British national anthem. And the same is true of Wales and Northern Ireland. And if they had qualified, then they would be facing the same problem. And the United Kingdom is unique in having its constituent nations compete separately in this way. So when Spain play, you know, Catalonia is not playing. When Germany play, you don't have Bavaria. Canada is hosting it.

48:40Tom Holland:You don't have Quebec appearing as a kind of separate team in the World Cup. And so people may be wondering, well, how come the home nations, as they're called, England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, How come they enjoy this privilege? It's because football's earliest governing bodies are the home nations. The English and Scottish and Welsh and Irish governing bodies long preceded the emergence of FIFA, which administers the World Cup. FIFA is a parvenu by comparison. So Scotland and England played the earliest international football match as recognised by FIFA in 1872. and that was 32 years before the founding of FIFA and 58 before the first World Cup.

49:26Dominic Sandbrook:And that's why Scotland and England, Wales, Northern Ireland have their own, and England actually, I don't know, I shouldn't leave England out, why they have their own distinct identities as teams that do not exist as UN member states or whatever.

49:40Tom Holland:Yes. And so I think if you're Scottish or English, this can be a cause of great patriotic pride. You know, we got there first. It's our game. Our governing bodies are much older than FIFA or the World Cup. Brilliant. But I think it does pose an issue on the national anthem front. Of course. And so the two nations who are competing in this year's World Cup, Scotland and England from Britain, they have come up with differing answers to this kind of poser to this question.

50:10Dominic Sandbrook:Because you said a second ago, oh, you know, when they come out at the World Cup, by rights they would be lining up and singing the national anthem of their country which is the united kingdom of great britain northern ireland which would be god save the king yeah but of course everybody who's listened to this podcast who is scottish or you knows anything about football

50:28Tom Holland:knows that the scots do not sing that anthem and the thing just to say is that there is nothing kind of inherently offensive about god save the king to scots or even to very enthusiastic scottish nationalists because Charles III rules as king of the United Kingdom by virtue of his descent from the Stuarts, from Mary Queen of Scots and that Stuart line. Despite both the Hanoverians and the Stuart lines, they are on the throne by virtue of their descent from Mary Queen of Scots. And Scottish nationalist leaders have been perfectly happy to stick up for God save the king so alex sammond who was the smp's leader the scottish nationalist party's leader who first kind of put scottish independence on the table as a serious prospect um in 2015 when jeremy corbyn the radically left-wing leader of the labor party at the time and he went to a battle of britain memorial service yeah and he refused to sing god save the queen and sammond said that this was infantile sammond was quite keen on the queen he loved to talk to her about horse racing the kind of mutual interest and then in the same month nicola sturgeon who succeeded alex amund as leader of the smp the scottish nationalist party she joined the queen and duke of edinburgh opening um a new railway line in the scottish borders and the band struck up god save the queen and nicola sturgeon sung it perfectly happily sang with gusto yeah sang with gusto and the official policy of the smp remains that should scotland become an independent country then they will retain the monarchy.

52:07Tom Holland:The monarchy would continue as something joining England and Scotland as it had done before the creation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain in the early 18th century. But that said, there is a very strong Republican strain in the Scottish independence movement. And in fact, in Scotland, generally, enthusiasm for the monarchy is noticeably lower than it is, say in England yeah and I think that enthusiasm for God save the king in particular is shadowed in Scotland by a vague sense that say Bonnie Prince Charlie was fighting for Scottish independence in 1745 I mean this is kind of the notion that is fostered by TV shows like Outlander and things like that right now it has to be said that this is completely a historical in Scotland 1745 the the arrival of Bonnie Prince Charlie, this is a Scottish civil war, particularly between the highlands and the lowlands, really.

53:07Tom Holland:But there is, I think, a sense, wouldn't you say, that a lot of people in Scotland kind of, Bonnie Prince Charlie is promoted as a Scottish hero of independence, something like Robert Bruce or William Wallace or someone like that, which he absolutely wasn't.

53:22Dominic Sandbrook:I'm surprised Mel Gibson hasn't made a film about it with the English as the villains. I mean, that is the perception of the Battle of Culloden, of the whole enterprise that it's Scotland versus England. And yet again, the bullying, tyrannical English have wiped the floor with the Scots.

53:35Tom Holland:And as we say, this is completely ahistorical. The Battle of Clodden was, you know, it's a battle fought between two competing visions of Scotland. However, it is true that in that summer of 1745, one of the numerous verses that is being written during this kind of first flush of God save the King mania, it does name check rebellious Scots and express the hope that they will soon be crushed. And Billy Connolly picked up on this. So the great Scottish comedian, he complained about it in a kind of very funny monologue. But just to reiterate, there are loads of lyrics being composed in this period.

54:11Tom Holland:So there are lyrics being composed that damn George II, for instance. People on both sides of the divide are coming up with lyrics all the time. So it's not surprising that there are scotaphobic lyrics coming from england for instance the same is true on the other side that jack about writers are writing um hostile lyrics about the hanoverians but i think you could see that all this kind of swirl explains perhaps why god save the king has less purchase in scotland than it does in england because the historical reality doesn't really matter when you're dealing with a national anthem as we saw in our previous episode what matters is exactly the tug of the

54:48Dominic Sandbrook:heartstrings the emotions that they generate you were saying the reason that uh it's not so popular in scotland is because of the associations with the 45 culloden whatever i think actually the the real reason it's not so popular in scotland is it's associated with england right because english teams sing it english supporters sing it and therefore by definition scottish fans do not want to sing it although scottish fans did sing it for decades and decades but i agree i mean it

55:20Tom Holland:would be very odd i think for say scotland and england if they were playing in the world cup and who knows they may meet in the final um scotland would have to qualify from the first group stage which they've never ever done well we will see we will time will tell but i mean it would it would seem mad for both sides to stand there and sing absolutely the same song the same i mean It would be very, very funny. Sing it twice together. And England playing against Scotland is a very, you know, it's the oldest international football rivalry. Yeah. England were playing Scotland football right the way up to the mid 80s.

55:52Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah, every year. Home Nations Championship. Yeah.

55:54Tom Holland:Then that stops. But in another sport, rugby, England continue to play Scotland every year because there's this contest, the Six Nations, where they all various countries play each other. And that includes England and Scotland. And so going into the 90s, I guess Scottish rugby players had a particular incentive to try and come up with a new anthem. And the one that they finally settle on is a song called Flower of Scotland, which had been composed in 1966 by a folk singer called Roy Williamson, who was one half of a folk duo called the Corries. and very like the star spangled banner it was inspired by a rousing national victory over a hated foe but this particular victory in the case of the corries was one that had been won six and a half centuries before so it's not like the star spangled banner inspired by something that the guy who composed it had seen i mean this is going way way back and the victory that it celebrates is the Battle of Bannockburn, which had been won by the Scottish King Robert Bruce over the English King Edward II in 1314.

57:05Tom Holland:And for those who haven't heard it, the song begins with a kind of rousing blast that's been lifted from Verdi's chorus of the Hebrew slaves. And then you were back to the early 14th century when the Scots won the greatest victory in their military history over a much larger um english invasion force and it's a celebration of bruce and his army who had stood against and i quote proud edward's army and sent him homeward to think

57:36Dominic Sandbrook:again but you know what though i think this is a massive dirge flower of scotland is a real dirge i mean people say god save the king is a dirge flower of scotland is very slow and it's kind of stately and slightly melancholy, I think, in its melody.

57:51Tom Holland:Do you know who would agree with you is the secretary of the Scottish FA in, I think, around 2005. Really? He proposed getting rid of it because by this point, it's been adopted by the Scottish rugby team and then it ends up being adopted by the Scottish football team. I mean, it has to be said, it does work well against England. If you're Scottish and you're playing against England, it's brilliant. Slightly less effective, I think, if you're playing rugby against the French or the Irish or the Welsh or indeed the Italians, all that stuff about sending proud Edward back home.

58:22Dominic Sandbrook:I think with the bagpipes, it is kind of pretty stirring. That's what Callum, our producer, is saying. And Callum's mum cries at it all the time, apparently. So some people like it.

58:31Tom Holland:And so the Scottish FA, they end up adopting it as Scotland's national anthem just in time for the 1998 World Cup in which Scotland had qualified. um and as you pointed out dominic do not progress beyond the first round yeah and 2026 will be the first time since 1998 that scotland have competed in a world cup and so any fans of songs about early 14th century battles out there you know tune in and listen to the flower of scotland so

59:04Dominic Sandbrook:who are they they're playing brazil morocco and the people of haiti can look forward to hearing the Scots. Hearing about the Battle of Bannockburn. Hearing about the Battle of Proud Edward.

59:15Tom Holland:They talk of nothing else in Port-au-Prince. Now, the England national team, when they line up, will not be singing a song about, say, England's great victory at Hallidon Hill in the reign of Edward III over the Scots.

59:28Dominic Sandbrook:Should sing about Flodden.

59:30Tom Holland:We could. Well, I think, I mean, it would be nice to have another early 14th century battle, perhaps. I mean, it would be like us, I guess, singing a song about the Battle of Cressy, perhaps.

59:40Dominic Sandbrook:I mean, I'd be so up for that. I can't tell you.

59:43Tom Holland:Well, so the England team will be singing God Save the King. It's the national anthem of Britain, and it's been cast as the national anthem of England. And I think the reason that they are happy to do that in a way that the Scots aren't is, I mean, the clue is there actually in the Sex Pistols song, because in the opening line, it begins with the British national anthem. But then it's England dreaming. And there is a tendency on the part of the English historically to elide Britain with England. And the Scots and the Welsh and the Northern Irish, they love that.

1:00:14Dominic Sandbrook:We sometimes do it in this podcast. And in fact, the great historian H.A.P. Taylor, his book about British history between the wars, Britain between the wars, was called England 1918 to 1945 or whatever it was called. He just absolutely leant into it. And Churchill did that quite often in the Second World War and his rhetoric.

1:00:32Tom Holland:Well, Nelson did it as well. England expects every man will do his duty. I mean, that was still the case when England hosted the World Cup in 1966, because people in the crowd were waving not the flag of St. George, the English flag, but the Union Jack. And now it's much likelier to be the cross of St. George. And that happened in, I think, in the 1996 Euros when England got to play Scotland. So it was kind of Gaza and his great goal and all of that. The dentist chair celebration. The dentist chair celebration. And I think it's not maybe a coincidence that Flower of Scotland was formally adopted as the Scottish anthem by the Scottish FA the following year.

1:01:12Tom Holland:Maybe not a complete coincidence. It had been kind of informally used, I think, since 1993, but it gets kind of officially enshrined then. It has to be said, there is absolutely no sign that the English FA are remotely contemplating changing God Save the King. They seem perfectly happy with it. But there are people who kind of mutter and say, well, we should have a properly English theme. So I guess that the overwhelming favourite would be Jerusalem. But you know what?

1:01:42Dominic Sandbrook:In the 70s, so in the 70s, when Don Revy was the England manager, modernising England manager, there was a brief period i think we're talking about roughly between 1974 and 1976 when they adopted land of hope and glory which is still a very british and it was controversial it was controversial lots of people didn't like it and they said

1:02:05Tom Holland:bring back the old anthem well and another one is i vow to thee my country which again is about britain yeah i think the appeal of jerusalem is it is very specifically about england so for people who don't know it was a poem written by William Blake the great romantic poet um so if you love a romantic poem I mean that ticks your box yeah it uh refers to England as a green and pleasant land so that's like lots of national anthems where you know which celebrate the natural beauty of the country nice topographical description people love that in an anthem I think the music is great uh so written by Sir Hubert Perry and um orchestrated by Elgar actually George V Dominic so one of your great heroes, he said he much preferred it to God Save the King.

1:02:48Tom Holland:So I think there's maybe a monarchist case for it. Blake, of course, was a revolutionary. He got had up for seditious criticism of the monarchy, so it would appeal to anti-monarchists as well. And it has this famous line, bring me my chariot of fire. So it has a kind of sporting link because chariot of fire gave the name to the great, you know, that film about the Olympics, whatever it was. Did you just say whatever it was? Whatever it was. Something about the Olympics. And also it's kind of about Jesus coming to England and coming to Glastonbury specifically. So it would appeal to fans of music festivals.

1:03:28Tom Holland:So I think it does tick a lot of boxes. And also I have to say it is already the official hymn of a great English national sport, namely cricket.

1:03:37Dominic Sandbrook:I think it's got a bit of a class orientation, Jerusalem, there, doesn't it? Because it's a very, very public school chapel hymn. him i mean for example before we started broadcasting tabby was saying that i think she used to sing it when she was a stow so you know i wonder whether that might taint it for some listeners yeah possibly um but i'm sure you could kind of soup it up maybe

1:03:55Tom Holland:become the people's anthem right change the lyrics exactly yeah i played at glastonbury

1:04:00Dominic Sandbrook:i mean who knows i'm still in the god save the king camp frankly uh i'm agnostic okay as always Tom.

1:04:06Tom Holland:Yeah, as always.

1:04:07Dominic Sandbrook:You played your traditional card.

1:04:09Tom Holland:Yeah, I have. So that is the national anthem of England and Scotland. Wow. And next, Dominic, we've got Germany, haven't we?

1:04:16Dominic Sandbrook:England's old rivals at football. We'll be talking about all kinds of people, actually. We'll be talking about the Kaiser. He'll be back. We'll be talking about Horst Wessel. Will we? The Nazi martyr. Maybe a little mention of Hitler. A little mention of Hitler. Yeah. The East Germans, Konrad Adenauer. All right. So it's actually an unbelievably interesting story, the story of the German. I bet. National Anthem, or should I say Anthems. Yeah, wonderful. Looking forward to that, Dominic. And then the Dutch. So yeah, then we've got the Dutch, then we've got Brazil, and then we have South Africa.

1:04:48Dominic Sandbrook:Okay. So if people want to listen to those episodes now, is there any way they can do so? Is there any mechanism?

1:04:53Tom Holland:Well, there is, Dominic. And this will come as news to people. If you want to hear all of those episodes in one go, and you're not already a member of the Restless History Club, then you can go to the restishistory.com, sign up there, and you get the whole lot. Plus, a whole load of supplementary benefits.

1:05:12Dominic Sandbrook:And the only way to get those benefits is to sign up on that website. Am I right? Yes, that is correct.

1:05:16Tom Holland:Okay, brilliant. We're going to go out on Jerusalem, the perhaps future English national anthem. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

1:05:33And in the speedy nature's high Walk of the wind and stout and tree And was the holy land of the wind Let the pasture see

1:05:56Dominic Sandbrook:And with your countenance divine I'll shine for the morn of the years, and for still us and will hear, the mountains of satanic hills.

1:06:27Thank you.

1:07:17CHOIR SINGS

1:07:30Tom Holland:hello everyone it's tom holland here i am with the great helen castor we're talking about the she-wolves the great queens of medieval england we've already done two today it's the third Isabella of France who marries Edward II, a very problematic husband it has to be said and she really does go the full she-wolf on him and here is a clip from that episode. And what about Edward II, the anointed king of England? That's a bigger problem isn't it?

1:08:06Dominic Sandbrook:A much bigger problem. He is the anointed king, he's now a prisoner. If they know one thing about Edward is that you can't trust his word they can't put him back on the throne not even if he's promising to be good but what are you going to do how do you how do you remove a king they do it the best way they know how which is they depose him they list all his many crimes and faults in parliament and they say he has attacked his own people and therefore he must no longer be king They also get him to abdicate. You need belt and braces if you possibly can. And they declare that his young son, Edward III, is now king and he is crowned in February 1327.

1:08:49Dominic Sandbrook:But the problem now is you have an ex-king in prison, in custody. And by September of 1327, already three plots to free him have been discovered and have been foiled. This isn't a tenable situation. Something has to be done.

1:09:07Tom Holland:Edward, by this point, is in Barclay Castle by Bristol. And he conveniently dies. And what are the theories on how he dies, Helen?

1:09:19Dominic Sandbrook:Well, there are many theories, including a theory that he didn't die at all and was in fact spirited away to become a hermit in Germany. I don't buy that. As far as I can see from all the available evidence, on the night of the 21st of September 1327, Edward dies conveniently, without explanation, in his prison cell.

1:09:41Tom Holland:Come on, Helen, we know how he died. Stop. Stop skirting around the issue. Get the poker.

1:09:46Dominic Sandbrook:The red hot poker. Well, what we know is this story gets told. And of course, it gets told because it encapsulates the whole story in one moment, does it not?

1:09:57Tom Holland:What happens to the red hot poker?

1:09:58Dominic Sandbrook:You're going to make me say this. A red hot poker thrust into his anus to burn his intestines from the inside out. And the story goes that, of course, this is an excellent way to kill a king because it leaves the outside of his body untouched. So his body can be displayed. But also, of course, symbolically, this is hearkening back to his ill-fated and deeply unwise relationship with Piers Gaveston.

1:10:23Tom Holland:How early do these stories appear? I mean, is it possible that this is historically accurate?

1:10:29Dominic Sandbrook:I can't prove that it isn't. And they do appear quite early.

1:10:33Tom Holland:I think generally on The Rest is History, if there's a good story. Let's go with it. You know, and it's not completely implausible. We'll go with it. So let's say that he does. He has a red hot poker shoved up his ass. And that's the end of Edward II. Thanks very much for listening. And if you'd like to hear the first two episodes, then go to the rest is history.com. Sign up there. But I can't believe you haven't already done that. Athletic Brewing Company crafts award winning non-alcoholic beers for those who want to be part of every round. With over 185 flavor awards, they're exceptional NA beers that fit your lifestyle and any social occasion.

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