683. Washington: Hero of the Revolution (Part 1)

16:12Tom Holland:This sounds quite familiar.

16:13Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah, it does. Except we're not winning triumphant wars against the French. No, no. Anyway, the question is, how do you pay for this debt? Now that you've conquered all this territory in North America, how are you going to fund troops to look after it and to keep the peace? not least because there are increasing conflicts with native tribes as the settlers push west. In England, the gentry, who shoulder the tax burden, are already paying more tax than they've ever paid before. So what, 3 %? Yeah, exactly. Half a percent or something. So Parliament decides it will raise revenue from the colonies themselves to pay for their own defence.

16:54Dominic Sandbrook:I mean, that sounds entirely reasonable. Quite right. And Parliament also says, well, this is the time, basically, the British Empire, Britain's overseas possessions, have now swollen to dimensions that we never dreamed of. And the system for dealing with all this is very ramshackle and corrupt. There's all sorts of smuggling and whatnot. Basically, let's use this opportunity to sort this out and to streamline and modernize it for the age of the Enlightenment. Sensible policies for a happy America, basically. Exactly. We'll have new courts. We'll have nice new customs duties. On all legal documents in America, there'll be a stamp tax, as there is already in Britain.

17:29Dominic Sandbrook:We'll just basically streamline the whole thing. This sounds great. I mean, who could possibly object to that? It is great. Because basically, if you just follow this, you'll turn into Canada, which is brilliant, or Australia. And everyone loves those countries. However, at the time, the American colonists don't like this at all. And very, very simply, I mean, obviously, this is a massive issue that we could spend hours discussing and going into all the nuances, but very simply, the issue is that until the 1760s, the North American colonists had basically been left alone. But what's happened now is that obviously Parliament is trying to legislate for them.

18:03Dominic Sandbrook:Parliament says, look, it's time to sort all this out. And the more militant colonists don't like it. They don't want to be sorted out. They don't want to be interfered with. And the militants say, well, we had traditional liberties from the 17th century. Which are English liberties. English liberties. And you're interfering with them. You don't have any right to make laws for us without our consent. And the French have been beaten. So actually, frankly, we don't really need you anyway because we can probably deal with the natives ourselves.

18:30Tom Holland:Right. So that's the thing, isn't it? That they don't actually want the British to come in and be woke about the Native Americans. They just want to go out and grab their land.

18:37Dominic Sandbrook:Yes, absolutely right. This is such a great patriotic podcast.

18:41Tom Holland:Brilliant. But it's true, isn't it?

18:43Dominic Sandbrook:It is true. I mean, that is the state of play. Yeah. And to just point out what the British and the loyalists take on, because don't forget, at least one in five Americans probably is a loyalist and stays loyal to King and Parliament. They say, well, here's the reasons for doing this. Don't go moaning about that you're not represented in Parliament. Most people in Britain don't vote in elections for Parliament. Most towns in Britain, lots of them don't have an MP. The way that Parliament works is Parliament is chosen on ancient organic principles that have evolved over time. Parliament as a body represents our entire British global family.

19:20Dominic Sandbrook:And Parliament's laws bind not just British subjects in Britain, but British subjects all over the world. So Parliament does speak for you as it speaks for everybody at home. Now, that doesn't cut any ice with the militants or indeed with George Washington. Washington stands very much on the more extreme wing of this issue. He has money problems, like a lot of landowners do, after the Seven Years' War. The tobacco price had fallen considerably in the 1760s, so he's struggling to maintain his gentry lifestyle. He's run up big debts, and obviously he hates the thought of paying new taxes. He doesn't want to pay a stamp tax.

19:57Dominic Sandbrook:He doesn't want to pay a tax on glass or paper or tea brought in by a parliament in London, where he's never been. Washington is also involved you mentioned land so important Washington is involved in land speculation in the west and when in 1763 Britain forbids American settlement west of the Appalachian so Parliament says stop expanding west we don't want to get into conflict with the native tribes Washington is gutted Washington and his mates want to get stuck in yeah of course so at every point during the breakdown of relations Washington is very much with the militants so he goes to the first Continental Congress in Philadelphia in 1774.

20:37Dominic Sandbrook:And he doesn't really say much because, of course, he's worried about showing people his teeth, but he's very much on the hawkish wing. Then in 1775, after fighting is already broken out with British troops at Lexington and Concord, there's a second Continental Congress. This time, Washington turns up in his militia uniform. And it's at this second Continental Congress that the militants vote to set up a secessionist proto-state called the United Colonies of North America, which will have its own continental army to fight off their imperial overlords.

21:09Tom Holland:Can I ask, is this why Washington turns up in his militia uniform? Of course. That he suspects this is going to happen. He therefore thinks there's going to need to be a commander. And if I turn up in my militia uniform, it will serve as a nudge to everybody that I'm the guy.

21:24Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah. Fighting has broken out and Washington wants to proclaim that he is, you know, tanned, rested and ready. to take on the British. So the Continental Army's been set up. Someone's got to command it. There are various people, but Washington is by far the most obvious. He's got military experience from the Seven Years' War. He's from the most populous colony, which is Virginia, the oldest. And the other important thing about Washington, which will run through his career, he is a unifier. He is a bit vanilla. Because he's a bit boring and he doesn't say anything, no one's offended by him. So a delegate from Massachusetts said of him, he's a complete gentleman.

21:58Dominic Sandbrook:He's sensible, amiable, virtuous, modest, and brave. A bloke from Connecticut. He seems discreet and virtuous. No harem, scare-em, ranting, swearing fellow, but sober, steady, and calm. I mean, you know, these could be Washington's epitaph. So now what he has to do is he has to weld the militias from these 13 rebel colonies into a continental army. And he has to lead the resistance to the British. You know, arguably at this point, the greatest imperial power on earth.

22:25Tom Holland:And a power that Washington knows well because of his experience with them.

22:29Dominic Sandbrook:Knows very well. Now, in American kind of patriotic legend, this is a great underdog victory. And you can see why they would say that. Britain has the Royal Navy. Britain has a bigger population. Britain has a trained professional army with up to 50 ,000 men. And Britain also brings over about 30 ,000 German mercenaries, the so-called Hessians. But if you read distinguished American historians, academic historians of this period, like Gordon Wood, who died a week ago, sees obituaries in the papers in Britain as well as America. Gordon Wood points out, actually, the rebels have an awful lot of things going for them.

23:08Dominic Sandbrook:First of all, they're fighting on home soil. The British have to send troops 3 ,000 miles away, you know, in an age when there are massive communications and logistics problems. And actually, no country in the 18th century has ever fought and won a war like this 3 ,000 miles from home.

23:24Tom Holland:God, I suppose that's true, isn't it?

23:26Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah. I mean, it's not been done before.

23:28Tom Holland:The British are trying to do something that's never really been done. I suppose the closest analogy would be the conquest of America by the conquistadors, but they're nothing on the scale that's required to defeat the colonial rebels in America.

23:40Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah. I mean, there's a big difference between basically toppling a... a kind of bronze age state a widely disliked regime that doesn't even understand what you are and dealing with an insurgency on a massive scale i mean that's a really important point second point you could send 80 000 troops or whatever but you can't conquer north america it's huge and it's perfect for a guerrilla war i mean it's covered with woods and forests and lakes and all of these things even if you captured the the towns and cities which of course are very small by European standards. So what? The guerrillas can just go off into the countryside.

24:16Dominic Sandbrook:So there is a kind of Vietnam quality to it. Totally there is. So I think that's the other issue. I think Vietnam is absolutely the right comparison. Because basically what the Americans can do, first of all, they care much more than the British do. The Americans basically know, I think, even from the start, that if they just keep going, they will probably win.

24:36Tom Holland:The British will eventually give up. I mean, and in Britain, there are lots of people who have sympathy with them. It's not like everyone in Britain is opposed to this.

24:45Dominic Sandbrook:No, no, there's lots of people who sympathize with the colonists. But also, even if you don't sympathize with the colonists, you're much more interested in India or the Caribbean, the rich sugar islands of the Caribbean, than you are in, you know, Georgia or Vermont or something. I mean, no one in Britain cares that much about these places. So basically, Washington's job, I mean, rather like if you're a member of the Viet Cong or something, his job is don't get caught into a massive pitch battle. Just keep going, melt into the shadows, keep up a long guerrilla campaign, and eventually the British will come to terms.

25:18Dominic Sandbrook:Surely they will. And so this is the story of the next two years. Washington does a pretty good job of building this into an army, although he's often complaining that they're very licentious and disorderly, his men, because Washington is very straight-laced. He loses far more battles than he wins, but these are very small battles by European standards. Kind of little skirmishes. If they were fought in Europe, we would call it a skirmish. We wouldn't even think of them as a battle. Of course, they're battles by North American standards. But the thing is, every time he loses, he just melts away into the woods.

25:51Dominic Sandbrook:A good example is one of his biggest defeats. He's driven out of New York in 1776. He escapes south from New York into Pennsylvania, and then he pulls off this tremendous PR coup by crossing the River Delaware at Christmas and then he wins two little battles at Trenton and Princeton and everybody in Europe says, oh, Washington, you know, he's got one over on the British again. Washington crossing the Delaware.

26:15Tom Holland:That one. Wasn't that nice? Yeah. Lydia the Tattooed Lady. Do you want to explain that reference to people, Tom? It's a song called Lydia the Tattooed Lady and she has all kinds of tattoos and one of them is Washington crossing the Delaware.

26:26Dominic Sandbrook:There you go. so people can Google it. Maybe you should sing the entire thing as a bonus, a special bonus treat for Arrested History Club members.

26:33Tom Holland:Do you know?

26:34Dominic Sandbrook:Maybe. So let's get to 1777. It's a very mixed picture, the war that year. On the one hand, the Americans get a massive result. They captured General John Burgoyne's army at Saratoga, and they capture lots of prisoners, and that's a great propaganda coup for them, especially in the capitals of Europe, Paris, Madrid, and so on. But for Washington personally, 1777 is a nightmare. He's outwitted by the British General William Howe in rural Pennsylvania. He loses a crucial battle. And the result of that is that the British, at the end of September, are able to march into the rebel capital of Philadelphia unopposed.

27:10Dominic Sandbrook:And the Continental Congress, this is the kind of political wing of the tax protest, they have fled. And basically, Philadelphia has been, only the women and children remain. Washington's army is outside Philadelphia, kind of lurking around in the woods. and the morale that autumn is very very low so that's the pouring of rain they haven't got any food the discipline is breaking down even ron churnow who's definitely a patriotic american historian describes them as marauding through the countryside terrorizing the inhabitants so they're basically sort of looting and stuff and they're very miserable so let's pick up the story a few weeks after that winter has come and washington has a dilemma what's he going to do with his army.

27:55Dominic Sandbrook:So his army, there's about 12 ,000 of them and about 400 women and servants and general hangers-on. And among those 12 ,000 men are men from all 13 breakaway colonies, and we'll talk about them more after the break. They can't just go home. Washington himself only went home once between 1775 and 1781. What they need to do, he needs to keep the army together and he needs to find winter quarters for them. He doesn't want to retreat too far from Philadelphia because he doesn't want to abandon the capital's kind of rural hinterland to the British. But he also wants to stay in touch with the Continental Congress, which is in York, Pennsylvania, and the Pennsylvania legislature, which is in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

28:40Tom Holland:Oh, so it's very Wars of the Roses.

28:42Dominic Sandbrook:Very Wars of the Roses, yeah. I don't think that was by design. I think that's by accident. Yeah, it would be possibly pushing things too far to imagine that was by design. It would. So the place he chooses is Valley Forge, which is 18 miles northwest of Philadelphia. And Valley Forge is somewhere that becomes one of the most sacred sites in American history. Washington said it was dreary, which was a bit unfair, I think. It's a sort of plateau. It's high ground surrounded by woods and fields. Because you're on high ground, you can see if the British are coming. Because there's woods, you've got timber for your camp.

29:15Dominic Sandbrook:There are streams for water. And you can basically sort of keep an eye and make sure the British don't go out from Philadelphia to raid the countryside. And because there's farmland around, Washington is hopeful that the locals who are Welsh Quakers, so ticking two very familiar Rustist history boxes in one go, that the Welsh Quakers will keep them supplied with crops and livestock. Unfortunately, Tom, one of the only lessons of history that really endures is that you can never truly rely on a Welsh Quaker. so Washington will learn that lesson in the second half of the episode so they're on their way to Valley Forge Washington knows even as they're marching there that this is going to be pretty grim his men have run out of supplies many of them don't have a blanket between them about 4 ,000 of them don't have any boots or shoes and Washington said later that even the march through the sleet to Valley Forge was a pretty grim ordeal he remembered seeing men without clothes to cover their nakedness, without blankets to lay on, without shoes by which their marches might be traced by the blood from their feet, marching through frost and snow without a murmur.

30:23Dominic Sandbrook:But I think you can argue that, I mean, we've been quite down on Washington, but this is the moment when he really emerges as a national leader. Because basically, Washington says, and he has it known, he has it widely known, that he will share the hardships of his men. He's not going to bunk off to Mount Vernon. He will be there with them every step of the way and his artillery commander henry knox said to him the people of america look to you as their father and into your hands they entrust their all confident of every exertion on your part for their security and happiness so basically this is on you now like you're gonna you're we're looking to you to get us through this anyway six days before christmas the 19th of december they arrive at valley forge there is absolutely nothing there no shelter but this is the sort of challenge at which Washington excels.

31:10Dominic Sandbrook:So he divides his men up into construction teams. He says, I want you to cut down the trees and build these cabins. American historians love these cabins. Wood cabins, log cabins. Because they love summer camps in America, don't they? This must be the ancestor of that winter camp. Washington says, well, have a race so you can build their cabins most quickly. And the winner gets$12. And Washington says, I'll give$100 to the team that comes up with the best way of making a waterproof roof using the leased wood. So very exciting scenes. I mean, you call him a fun sponge, but what could be more fun than that?

31:48Dominic Sandbrook:It's great fun. Winter fun, the Washington way. And actually, they do a really good job. They put up 2 ,000 log cabins within a few days. They dig trenches. They dig redoubts. Oh, we love our redoubts, don't we? We haven't had a redoubts on the show since the Battle of Poltava. Yeah, great to have the redoubts back. And actually, I mean, this gives you a sign of how small North America is in terms of demography. By the time they finish, they've built the fourth biggest city in North America with these 2000 cabins. That's an amazing stat. Anyway, I compared this momentarily to a summer camp. It is not like a summer camp.

32:24Dominic Sandbrook:It's pouring with rain. There are dead horses everywhere. They just throw discarded wood everywhere. It's very muddy. It's very sludgy. as we will discover in the second half the toilet facilities are extremely poor can i ask why they

32:38Tom Holland:don't bury the horses that baffled me i mean isn't it kind of basic know-how yeah there's just rotting horse corpses everywhere yeah a british would have buried their horses i think anyway um

32:53Dominic Sandbrook:a lot of them haven't got any clothes because of that they ripped up some tents and they're wearing them as shirts and as shoes weirdly one european volunteer said afterwards the unfortunate soldiers were in want of everything they had neither coats hats shirts nor shoes their feet and legs froze until they become almost black and it was often necessary to amputate them now on top of all this they don't have enough food because the war has destroyed the continental army's supply chain so to washington's horror the days go by some supplies come but they've all rotted so they live on something which they call fire cakes which is basically they make this disgusting mixture of flour and water and they cook it on kind of heated stones oh my god sounds horrible yeah

33:35Tom Holland:they're eating flour basically i mean americans do love a big breakfast don't they they do and

33:39Dominic Sandbrook:we would before we started recording we were discussing the quality of american food so you know again a theme that will run through american history so after a few days they're basically like a camp of ghosts or beggars and there's an excellent diary entry by another splendidly named American. I've just looked at the name. He's a regimental surgeon. This can't be true. He's called Dr. Albert Gents Waldo. What the? That's just a Star Wars name, isn't it? That's just one of those Star Wars names or an NFL name. Albert Gents Waldo says, he's describing the scene, he says, poor food, hard lodging, cold weather, fatigue, nasty clothes, nasty cookery, vomit half my time i'm getting i'm going west more west country the more i do it smoke out of my senses the devil's in it i can't endure it there comes a bowl of beef soup full of burnt leaves and dirt sickish enough to make a hector spew and he on and on he goes on he goes poor food hard lodging cold weather nasty clothes nasty cookery tom it's like my days living in minnesota oh bang bang great banter so anyway they're all really sick uh they've got scabies they've got scurvy they've got typhus they've got typhoid they've got dysentery i mean we emphasize dysentery the role of dysentery in history don't we yeah and they've got loads of it very rarely discussed by

35:00Tom Holland:historians but a key key factor the massive killer now you know i had that fact for you about this

35:06Dominic Sandbrook:being the fourth biggest city in north america yeah i actually have a better fact that i hope people will take away from this podcast apart from the teeth more americans died at valley forge than at any battle of the entire war.

35:22Tom Holland:Well, I mean, that is illustrative of the impact of dysentery on the patterns of history, isn't it?

35:28Dominic Sandbrook:I have to say, I was really struck by that. And that's partly because the battles have basically glorified punch-ups in fields. But 2 ,000 people died at Valley Forge, which was the sixth of Washington's army. and more would probably have died if washington hadn't been an enthusiastic proto-vaxxer

35:49Tom Holland:so it's inoculations isn't it at this point inoculations it's not vaccinations inoculations

35:54Dominic Sandbrook:so basically what they do is they they scratch your skin and they give you a very mild dose of smallpox from which you'll probably recover because if you get it through the skin you're more likely to recover and the army had been plagued by smallpox had washington not organized this program of inoculation, probably more men would have died.

36:14Tom Holland:It's one of the more memorable scenes in John Adams, the TV series, where they scrape a bit of pass out of someone with smallpox. Franklin was very keen on this. Was he? Because he'd lost one of his sons when he was four years old to smallpox, and he hadn't inoculated him. And so he became a great proselytizer. And of course, he's the great scientist of America. So everyone listens to him.

36:39Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah. Yeah. I have to tell you that we gave up on John Adams as a family because Mrs. Sandbrook said she found it interminably boring and refused to watch anymore.

36:47Tom Holland:There were similar sentiments from Mrs. Holland. And she didn't actually complain. She just fell asleep.

36:53Dominic Sandbrook:She voted with her eyelids. Voted with her. I love it. So anyway, the inoculation campaign, this is testament to Washington's great strengths as a commander. So actually on the battlefield, Washington is not a brilliant tactician at all. I mean, he loses most of his battles, but he is brilliant. I take my hat off to him. He is brilliant at managing his men.

37:12Tom Holland:And this doesn't matter if the battles are just glorified skirmishes.

37:15Dominic Sandbrook:Correct. Exactly. So he's basically got his headquarters in this little stone cottage at inevitably Valley Forge Creek.

37:22Tom Holland:Hold on. How come he's got a stone cottage?

37:24Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah. The sharing of the hardships was kind of nominal for the first few days. He was in a tent for the first few days.

37:29Tom Holland:And now he's got a stone cottage.

37:31Dominic Sandbrook:Luxury. But yeah, his entire reputation is a lie. We dare to tell it as it is. Yeah, it's a podcast that tells you the truth, finally, about top hypocrite George Washington. So here he is in his lovely stone cottage, his holiday home.

37:48Tom Holland:With Zaga.

37:49Dominic Sandbrook:Although it's not terribly good fun because he doesn't believe in fun. So dice and card games are banned and all of his aides are sleeping in the downstairs rooms and stuff. And actually, the general sense of discipline was very impressive to European visitors. So one French officer said he was struck by the air of calm dignity through which you could trace the strong feelings of the patriot and discern the father as well as the commander of his soldiers. And this emphasis on Washington as a father figure runs right through accounts of Valley Forge, even at the time. And I think, again, that's one of his distinguishing characteristics.

38:23Dominic Sandbrook:now it's precisely because of washington's insistence on his own dignity that ronald reagan's story about kneeling to pray in the snow must be false we know it must be false and historians have you know spent a lot of ink talking about did washington believe in god or not was he a christian because it's a slightly confusing picture he did go to church but he didn't go regularly. When everyone else knelt to pray, Washington would stay standing. Washington never took communion. Washington very rarely mentioned Jesus Christ. He would talk about providence, or we talk about the author of our being.

39:02Dominic Sandbrook:So some historians have painted him as a deist. So, you know, God is a clockmaker. But some of Washington's mates, like James Madison, said, oh, no, no, he was a very devout Anglican. And it's probably, I think the consensus actually is that in the 18th century, if you were part of the Virginia gentry, your Anglicanism was very austere and sort of restrained.

39:25Tom Holland:I like that in Anglicanism.

39:26Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah, you like that. Sort of small p, puritanical.

39:29Tom Holland:Well, literally upstanding.

39:31Dominic Sandbrook:Exactly. You want to say standing, kneeling is flummery. You don't want to do that. It's performative. And it's precisely because of that, that it's utterly implausible that Washington would have knelt in the snow, especially where his men could have seen him. I mean, Reagan would have done that. Yeah. But Washington wouldn't. He definitely would. Oh, my Lord. It would have been a lapse of the dignity. Bill Clinton would have lain down in the snow or something. Oh, God, yes. Tears streaming down his cheeks. Trump would have stayed in his stone cottage. Yeah, in his gold cottage, surely.

40:05Tom Holland:Made out of gold ingots.

40:08Dominic Sandbrook:Well, anyway, this story about him kneeling in the snow is absolutely fake. It was invented in 1800 after Washington's death. So it's Parson Weems again. This is Parson Weems. He's an absolute villain. He's a terrible man making up stuff randomly. But actually, do you know what? Washington should have knelt in the snow. Maybe he should have done because things are looking very bleak for him as they approach Christmas. Two days before Christmas, 23rd of December, he writes to the Continental Congress. He says, our situation here at Valley Forge is absolutely desperate. yesterday i asked the troops to be in readiness to scour the countryside for food he said but they were too weak and hungry to obey only the efforts of my officers he says prevented a dangerous mutiny i am now convinced beyond a doubt that unless some great and capital change suddenly takes place this army must inevitably be reduced to one or other of these three things starve dissolve or disperse in order to obtain subsistence and just three or four days of bad weather would prove our destruction so tom is the game up for george washington the american cause are they going to abandon the rebellion pay their taxes obey the laws and peacefully evolve

41:25Tom Holland:into a warmer canada well there's only one way to find out um and uh spoiler alert i'm afraid the answer to that is pretty disappointing. But come back after the break and find out the worst.

42:03Tom Holland:the way. Wise keeps things simple. Wise is a smart way to move the currencies you need around the globe. It works in more than 160 countries and with over 40 currencies. Most transfers arrive instantly. Wise uses the mid-market exchange rate, like the one you see on Google, with no markups or hidden fees. So when money needs to move, you can see the rate, know the fee and get on with it. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees by downloading the Wise app today. Be smart, get wise, T's and C's apply.

42:57Dominic Sandbrook:$45 upfront payment required, equivalent to$15 per month. New customers on first three-month plan only. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details.

43:17Tom Holland:This episode is brought to you by TikTok. Now, discovering something new, nothing could be more thrilling than that. That's so true, Tom.

43:26Dominic Sandbrook:So the most exciting intellectual adventure that I've been on in the last couple of years was finding out all about the siege of Szymyschle in eastern Poland. So that's during the First World War. And I went online. I read lots of books about it. But what particularly thrilled me was discovering that there's a phenomenon called Szymyschle Tok. So people on TikTok exchanging facts about the siege of Szymyschle, talking about its history, its people. And for me, that was one of the most invigorating intellectual journeys that I've ever been on.

43:55Tom Holland:Well, of course, studying the history of obscure First World War battles, that's the kind of thing we're all into. But there are less mainstream areas that you can discover on TikTok, like history or maths or literature or cooking or music or sport or anything like that. Creators on TikTok make it easy to discover something new every day. TikTok is where discovery turns into conversation.

44:19Dominic Sandbrook:Visit TikTok.com forward slash explore more to learn more.

44:30Tom Holland:Hello everyone and welcome back to The Rest is History. It is the 23rd of December 1777 and in Ballyforge it's not looking like it's going to be the best Christmas ever. So a very cold, miserable George Washington, even though he's got his lovely stone cottage, he's still not having a fun time. he sent a desperate message to the continental congress basically saying you've got to help me out here or the entire army is going to implode and with it the the war effort exactly so exactly

45:00Dominic Sandbrook:so two days later they have christmas and washington and his aides they have a dinner christmas dinner of mutton cabbage and crusts of bread with water to drink because he'd lost all his baggage in the campaign outside philadelphia he's only got a single spoon to eat it with so So his aspirations of becoming an English country gentleman are very, very far from being realised at this moment.

45:24Tom Holland:Well, you could say, I mean, this is the kind of training you get at an elite English public school, don't you? It's true, actually. It's true. Kind of awful food and kind of shivering in the cold to toughen you up. Yeah. If he saw it in those terms, perhaps it would have cheered him up. Maybe, exactly.

45:42Dominic Sandbrook:Well, actually, do you know what? You say it's terribly cold. and Reagan talked about the snow and Parson Weems talked about all the snow but it's not actually that cold so it's not a particularly cold winter it doesn't snow that much it's basically rain and wind that they have to worry about now before the break I mentioned that he was hoping for aid from Welsh Quakers this was foolish because basically the locals are not that interested in helping him and this may you know surprise american listeners who have been brought up you know in the sort of hurrah hurrah view of the american revolution historians disagree about the exact numbers but let's say a quarter a third maybe even of the colonial population support actually support the british in this war the quakerism i think means they're probably not desperately keen on piling into a war but by and large they just want to keep out they just want to get on with their lives and they do have food but the british troops in philadelphia paying them more for their food so they just think well i'd rather sell it to the british troops in philadelphia than i would to these blokes well that's the american way isn't it yeah capitalism is the american way washington is very disappointed by this interestingly washington does not think that selling to the highest bidder is the american way so washington at various points talks about making trading with the British punishable by death.

47:08Dominic Sandbrook:He sends a thousand men out to basically requisition all the livestock from the local fields. So basically you steal it. Steal it, exactly. And he says in letters, this business about selling to the highest bidder is a sign of the debasement of our national character. He says our spirit of American independence is imperiled by our own abominable lust of gain. Goodness. What would he make of Elon Musk? Yes, exactly. Very good question. And actually, the interesting thing is that Washington at this point is not quite as popular with even his fellow officers or with Congress as he would later become.

47:45Dominic Sandbrook:So that winter, while he was at Valley Forge, there was a movement to sack him as commander in chief and bring in the bloke who'd won the Battle of Saratoga six months earlier, General Horatio Gates. and this movement fizzled out but it's a reminder that Washington is not as secure as he looks and actually at the end of January 1778 you know he's been writing these letters to Congress a congressional delegation at the end of January visits the camp and Washington has to be on his very best behavior he's very polite he's very respectful and he basically begs them to improve recruitment to sort out their supply chains but the visitor that he's really looking forward to comes a few days after that.

48:24Dominic Sandbrook:And this is his wife, Martha. So Martha hasn't seen him for months. She arrives in early February by carriage over the kind of icy roads. She's joined by some of their slaves. She gets to Valley Forge. She's really shocked by his condition. She writes to a friend, he is well but much worn with fatigue and anxiety. I never knew him to be so anxious as now. Now, if George is a little bit elusive, I have to say Martha is positively opaque. So I had a look in my files, and in 2015, I reviewed a biography of Martha Washington for the Sunday Times. And the final line of my review read as follows, I don't think I've ever read a biography of a more boring woman.

49:08Dominic Sandbrook:Really? Anyway, she arrives at the camp, she rolls up her sleeves, She gets stuck in. She manages the staff. She organizes the meals. Everyone says, oh, she's brilliant. You know, I never in my life knew a woman so busy from early morning till late at night as was Lady Washington. Interesting they call her Lady Washington, actually. Yeah, very. Now, she's not the only woman at the camp. And modern historians, perhaps unsurprisingly, are very, very keen to play up the general diversity of Valley Forge. So there's other generals' wives. There's a woman with the exome.

49:42Tom Holland:I just, again, just saw that and thought, did I read that right? It leaps off the page, isn't it? So this is Lucy Flucker Knox. So which prompts me to ask. Shall we clear, Flucker is not a nickname? Nor is Knox. No. So you've put down that there are wives of the various generals, that there are nurses, and there are laundresses. but are there prostitutes because i mean they generally follow armies don't they do you know

50:14Dominic Sandbrook:what i haven't seen any mention which i did find odd and i wondered whether that was either because american historians don't really want to mention it or because washington forbade it it's perfectly possible that washington because he is very puritanical whether he basically tried to stamp it out even so 12 000 men is it really plausible there's nobody there well he's shown that he's

50:37Tom Holland:alert to the danger of disease, I suppose. So that might be possible.

50:40Dominic Sandbrook:Yes. And Washington generally was very down on women being at the camp. He said, the multitude of women in particular, especially those who are pregnant or have children, are a clog upon every movement. But he can't stop them. Now, the other thing is the kind of the racial diversity or the ethnic diversity. So as we said before, there are men from all 13 rebel colonies. There are Catholics and Jews. There are lots of people from Scotland and Ireland. There are French, there are Prussians, there are Austrians, Poles, Dutch, Italian, Spanish, there are even Hungarians. Now, the most celebrated foreigner at the camp, somebody you admire, Tom, or you always make excuses for, the hapless and ineffective Marquis de Lafayette.

51:20Dominic Sandbrook:Is he dazing off? Right. A man who fell asleep at the crucial moment of the French Revolution, and thereby completely lost the initiative. so malafayette had arrived in the summer of 1777 as a volunteer when he was only 19 years old he was incredibly idealistic he'd gone and made his case personally to congress about being involved washington at first was suspicious of him but basically fell in love with him at valley forge really impressed by lafayette's energy and his enthusiasm so he's not falling asleep at this point no no not at all actually maybe he burnt himself out at valley forge and that meant he was underpowered when it came to the crisis in his own country but washington adopted him as a protege kind of son almost wasn't it yeah exactly as a surrogate son really exactly so now there are also some people of color at what valley forge so most native tribes sided with the british for understandable reasons because they think the north american colonists just want to steal all our lands and they're not wrong yeah they're not wrong and the british have you know although they probably would have taken them.

52:27Dominic Sandbrook:The British have made a feeble attempt to stop this happening. But there were about 50 scouts from the Ornada tribe. And Washington was a great fan of these fellows. He said they were brilliant. But the really striking story is the presence of African American soldiers. And if you look at sort of online accounts of this and very recent history books, in the last decade, the estimates have kind of got bigger and bigger and bigger. I think probably because historians are trying to see what they want to see. To get into the details of this, in January 1778, the smallest colony, which was Rhode Island, was struggling to fulfill its quota that it had to send, basically its kind of recruitment quota.

53:12Dominic Sandbrook:And one of Washington's officers, who was a guy called James Mitchell Varnum, said, well, why don't you sign up slaves? Put them in the army. And for Washington, that's a big ask, because Washington was born into a slave-owning family. And Washington did own slaves himself. He was conflicted about it. By the standards of slave owners, Washington was pretty humane. Even so, he bought dozens of slaves during his lifetime. By the time the crisis with Britain breaks out in the 1770s, he owns for getting on 100 slaves, something like 87 slaves. Ron Chernow who loves Washington says in his biography slavery was woven into every aspect of Mount Vernon life even for visitors even though Washington has slaves even though Washington knows that southerners will be appalled by this he agrees to this proposal and said the colony of Rhode Island bought the freedom of 117 slaves and sent them as soldiers to Valley Forge and two other states then followed suit massachusetts and connecticut and the deal there in connecticut for example was if you're a slave owner you could duck military service if you sent slaves in your

54:28Tom Holland:place but they're not slaves they're not like the mamalooks or something they've been freed by this

54:33Dominic Sandbrook:point you get freed exactly you're freed and you're sent into the army and then afterwards you will be free so by august 1778 so this is the point after which they've lost valley forge the total of black men in the army is about 755 soldiers and the really interesting thing that the top man on this top historian on this is a guy called henry vinecheck and he says there are remarkably few reports of any trouble at all there's no record of people complaining there's no record of fights or interdisciplinary problems caused by racial integration and both um winecheck and cherno think that the war had a big impact on Washington personally on his attitude to slavery.

55:18Dominic Sandbrook:So it's at this point, 1778, that he tells his steward back home to Mount Vernon, we should stop selling slaves against their will. We should stop breaking up slave families. And then at the end of the year, he's writing to his steward and he mentions his slaves in passing. And he says, my slaves of whom I every day long more and more to get clear of. In other words, I'd like to set them all free. He never actually does set them all free, though.

55:44Tom Holland:I thought he did in his will. Well, not in his lifetime, exactly. He doesn't set them free in his lifetime. There's a complication because it's what actually Martha owns most of them. Exactly. But he kind of makes provisions for when she dies that they will be set free.

55:57Dominic Sandbrook:Exactly so. It's a complicated story in Washington, but I don't think there's any doubt that Washington thinks slavery is wrong and he feels bad about it.

56:04Tom Holland:As we will see with Jefferson, that doesn't necessarily mean that you set your slaves free, though. No, exactly.

56:10Dominic Sandbrook:So back to the story. We're in February 1778. They're still very short of food. They're still suffering from disease. Washington writes to the governor of New York, George Clinton. He says, you know, we're pretty close to a famine in the camp. There are more rumors of a mutiny. Nothing but the most active efforts can avoid so shocking a catastrophe. But a week later, it's his birthday, his 47th birthday. And I thought you'd like this detail, Tom. His junior officers organized an entertainment for him. And this was a British play by Joseph Addison about the life of Cato the Younger.

56:45Tom Holland:So do you want to tell everyone who Cato the Younger is? Cato the Younger is a model of Republican virtue who prefers to commit suicide rather than submit to Caesar.

56:53Dominic Sandbrook:There you go.

56:54Tom Holland:So basically, he's the kind of model of inflexible, humorless opposition to monarchy that Washington is all about. Exactly.

57:04Dominic Sandbrook:He's seen this play several times. uh he actually could quote bits of it at length without the text so some of his favorite lines though a steady temper can look on guilt rebellion and fraud in the calm lights of mild philosophy tis not in mortals to command success but we'll do more we'll deserve it so all this sort of stuff about duty steadfastness deserving success yeah this is absolutely washington bingo so that's his birthday brilliant watches play about cato the younger and the next day an excellent man arrives in the camp and this is a man who actually is going to transform the fortunes of the continental army completely and this is a man called friedrich wilhelm ludolf gerhard augustin luis freiherr von steuben dominic would this gentleman by any chance be a german he is german he's top absolutely top tip-top Prussian and this bloke von Steuben he came from a military family in Prussia he'd served in the seven years war he'd been a captain he'd been a great pal of Frederick the Great but then he'd been discharged from the Prussian army in murky circumstances and there are some clues to those circumstances perhaps that will emerge in the next few moments he became the court chamberlain for the prince of hohenzollern hechingen but he found it a bit boring so he made contact with your great pal benjamin franklin and in the summer of 1777 this bloke von steuben sailed to america with his greyhound who was called azor he went with him everywhere his secretary the excellently named pierre etienne du ponceau and du ponceau was certainly 17 years old so you're A very good looking young lad.

58:49Dominic Sandbrook:Good looking young man. And his suspiciously handsome young aide, Louis de Pontier. Okay. So they land in Boston. They're wearing these very tight red uniforms and they've got loads of medals. And Stuyben says to the Americans, I've come here to fight for you. I don't want pay. I just pay my expenses.

59:07Tom Holland:So what's his beef with the British? Because, you know, Britain and Prussia were allies.

59:12Dominic Sandbrook:Same side. Yeah.

59:14Tom Holland:Sad. He's just there for fun.

59:15Dominic Sandbrook:He wants to hang out and have some, you know, with the lads. And their tight uniforms. I think it's a big element of the appeal. So he arrives at Valley Forge and he makes a great impression straight away. He's an unusual looking man. He's very jowly. He's got a gigantic red nose and he speaks comically bad English. And one American private said later, The trappings of his horse, the enormous holsters of his pistols, his large size and his strikingly martial aspect made him a perfect personification of Mars, the ancient fabled god of war. now when steuben arrives remember he's a german he is appalled by the litter and the filth of the camp the dead horses i mean we've flagged that up haven't we we have already so we too are appalled by it um he says he remembers the officers wearing and i quote a sort of dressing gown made of an old blanket or woolen bed cover and most of all the issue about the lack of proper toilet facilities and he says to washington look mate and he says in his broken english in prussia we would not stand for this you're literally preparing the food feet away from the bodies of rotting horses you have your toilets next to the kitchens and next to people's cabins dig your latrines on

1:00:28Tom Holland:the other side of the camp sort yourself out if they are so short of food and they're reduced to eating kind of water and flour why are they not eating the horses i'm not an american i don't know god's sake i mean i i just think i do a better job than washington absolute shambles from washington

1:00:42Dominic Sandbrook:yeah so anyway washington is delighted this bloke's turned up basically because he's lost loads of officers some of his officers have gone home they're they're sick of things and of course 2 000 of his men have died of disease so this bloke who's a pal afraid of the great he's like manna from heaven and steuben says i'll train your army for him washington gives him 120 men as guinea pigs and steuben basically turns them into prussians what he does is he writes out the drill every day in french and he gets some of washington's young officers to translate it into english for him and do you know one of those officers who does it for him alexander hamilton

1:01:19Tom Holland:yeah of musical fame yeah because um he hangs out with washington in the musical doesn't he

1:01:25Dominic Sandbrook:he does yeah so stroeben drills them he teaches them to march in formation he teaches them to use a bayonet they're not they don't have me using their bayonets properly he said afterwards the The American soldier had no faith in it and never used it but to roast his beefsteak. And the men love him. They think he's brilliant. They think he's very eccentric. He's funny. He's an absolutely textbook example of the hired football manager of a Premier League team who speaks only in sort of mumbled English obscenities. F this, F that. He's basically Claudio Ranieri when he was the manager of Leicester.

1:02:00Tom Holland:And he's going to pull off a similarly startling feat of promotion, isn't he?

1:02:05Dominic Sandbrook:He is, exactly. So, Stoyman's drills actually became the instruction manual for the US Army until for decades. It was still influencing American military strategy right up to the Civil War. So, Custer might have experienced it. Exactly. So, the result of this is the Continental Army will leave Valley Forge, a much more modern and professional unit than they came. And afterwards, Stoyman was made an American citizen. He was given a big estate in New York, and he was made a member of the American Philosophical Society alongside loads of other founding fathers. He clearly had a brilliant time because he became very close to two other handsome young men from Washington's army in their early 20s called Benjamin Walker and William North.

1:02:49Dominic Sandbrook:He adopted them. He made them his heirs, which was actually very common for gay men to do in the late 18th century. This was a way for you to establish a kind of formal relationship. When he died in 1794, he left them his estate. so it worked out well for him worked out well for him and for them actually so that's one european contribution to the insurgent effort but obviously the americans need more help than just this one prussian the war is now almost three years old and although the british you know are not really anywhere in their victory it's not clear how the americans will ever force the british out they have pinned their hopes all this time on french intervention but the french although they've sent arms kind of um surreptitiously they haven't formally joined the war and basically the americans are praying that the french will one day join the war to challenge britain's command of the seas the months have passed and there's been no breakthrough but then in the dying days of april 1778 the news reaches the insurgent camp at valley forge there has been a diplomatic bombshell because at Versailles two months earlier your mate Benjamin Franklin he has secured French recognition of the American Republic and a military alliance and a month later war was formally declared between Britain and France and when the news reaches Valley Forge Washington and his officers recognize this as a total game changer Lafayette is said to have kissed Washington on the cheeks with joy, which Washington probably didn't really approve of.

1:04:25Dominic Sandbrook:And a week later after they got the news, Washington and his troops have a day of Thanksgiving. They fire their guns in the air. They read copies of the treatise aloud. They all shout, long live the King of France and, not a brilliant shout this, God save the friendly powers of Europe. That didn't become an anthem. No, that didn't become an anthem. And there's loads of drinking. Everyone said that actually this time, this is the one time that Washington's lost his sort of imperturbable glacial exterior. He had accountants of uncommon delight. And the most shocking thing is that at the end of the day, he agreed to throw aside his dignity and to play cricket with the junior officers.

1:05:04Tom Holland:Well, that is the traditional American way of celebrating, isn't it? Exactly. He was very, very good at throwing things because there are all these kind of mad stories of him throwing bricks over rivers and things. Right. So I think he'd be quite good at cricket. As a bowler or as a fielder? Well, the bowling, because at this point, the ball was thrown, rolled along the ground rather than, it wasn't kind of airborne. But you hit the ball, you have to throw it back in. So is this the ancestor of American enthusiasm for tempin bowling? I think it, well, yeah, it's a kind of part of it. Also, you have very big hands and that's very useful if you're a bowler in cricket.

1:05:35Tom Holland:Of course, of course.

1:05:36Dominic Sandbrook:So French entry into the war has changed everything. Because from this point onwards, the odds really are against Britain. And from this point onwards, London thinks, okay, well, the North American colonists, the Southern North American colonists, what really matters is the Caribbean. and the Sugar Islands. So within weeks of this, London sends a message to the new British commander in North America, Sir Henry Clinton, send a third of your army to the Caribbean. When Clinton gets this message, he says, well, our position in Philadelphia is now untenable, we should evacuate east to New York City.

1:06:09Dominic Sandbrook:On the 16th of June, Washington at Valley Forge gets word that the British, British in Philadelphia have asked for the return of their clothes from the local laundries which is a sign that they are moving out because obviously a british army would never take to the to the uh to the roads in unlaundered uniforms that would be appalling so a couple days after this the first american brigades move out of valley forge and hot pursuit by the 22nd of june the whole continental army has crossed the delaware into new jersey and on the 28th of June at a place called Monmouth Courthouse, New Jersey, Washington's men have their first military test since they've been at Valley Forge.

1:06:49Dominic Sandbrook:So they have caught up with the British. The heat is overpowering. It's almost 40 degrees Celsius, so 100 degrees Fahrenheit. So hot that some soldiers actually drop dead from sunstroke. And the result of this battle, I mean, I say battle, it's basically another skirmish, is a draw, really. There's about 350 50 casualties on either side the british continued their evacuation to new york but having lost so many battles even a draw to washington seems like a victory and actually afterwards even the british commented they said gosh you know the americans have changed their tune they're pretty professional and obviously this is the result of this top prussian this bloke von steuben so where does all this leave the war they've got out of valley forge they're back on the road again you know Things are looking up, they've got the French on their side.

1:07:39Dominic Sandbrook:The war's not over, but the balance has fundamentally shifted. Because 10 days after this battle, a French fleet sails into Delaware Bay with 10 ships to the line, 4 frigates and 4 ,000 French soldiers. So from this point, the war is a global war. Britain will be on the defensive. And although American independence is not inevitable at this point in 1778, it is probably much more likely than not. But Washington himself never gets the Hollywood ending that you might have thought he would have liked. Because actually Monmouth Courthouse is the last major battle in the Northern Theatre.

1:08:14Tom Holland:Do you think that's why he hasn't been the hero of a kind of classic Hollywood film?

1:08:19Dominic Sandbrook:And that's also maybe why The War of Independence. Actually, there aren't that many Hollywood films about it. There's The Patriot with Mel Gibson. But I can't actually think of any others. I mean, certainly none of those that are well known in Britain or in Europe.

1:08:33Tom Holland:and part of that is because it ends in a very kind of um desultory manner it kind of splutters out doesn't it it splutters out the british end up sort of trapping themselves at yorktown

1:08:43Dominic Sandbrook:washington is there but even ron churnow in his biography says this is really a victory for french siege craft and french naval supremacy and washington is really a supporting actor at yorktown and it's a sort of slightly confusing ending the war then it nominally goes on for another two years before the the treaties of paris is signed anyway back to washington himself did washington matter i think the answer is undoubtedly yes and actually this is why the story of valley forge is so important because at that moment in 1777 1778 almost any other commander probably would have seen his army fall apart they're hungry they don't have supplies the weather is terrible you know congress is losing confidence in them the men are tempted to mutiny.

1:09:32Dominic Sandbrook:It's easy to imagine the different colonial units turning on one another. And if the army had broken up, the Continental Army, I think it would have been pretty hard to rebuild it. I think the momentum would have been lost, even with French backing. I mean, probably the French would not have joined the war in February. And Valley Forge could have been the end of the war. There could have been some sort of compromise. Who knows? Now, instead, of course, it becomes one of the most mythologized moments of the entire campaign and Washington because of his dignity because of his leadership because of his glacial self-control all of which are a bit performative but of course that's not to criticize them it's precisely because they're so public that they're so powerful Washington has set the tone you know he's played the Roman commander he has played his hero cato and it has absolutely worked he does the same trick again in december at 1783 so that's when the treaty was signed and he famously walks into the confederation congress and he resigns his command and he returns to private life back to his plow back to his plow well again he's self-consciously playing a roman he's playing cincinnatus isn't he and people loved it and george iii said oh if he did that he must be the greatest man in the world you know because people love the Romans at this point in the late 18th century.

1:10:51Dominic Sandbrook:They're obsessed by this idea of honor and duty and stuff.

1:10:54Tom Holland:And Republican virtue, that this is what you do in a republic is that you don't monopolize monarchical power, even if you're given it briefly. Exactly so. And so this will also be important for his role as the first president, that he ends up laying down his power. This is why they choose him.

1:11:09Dominic Sandbrook:They don't just choose him as president in 1789, because he was the victorious commander in chief. They choose him, I think, because he's the only one of the founding fathers who has the dignity and the self-control and the kind of paternalistic vibe that allows him to transcend all the factional and regional differences the other founding fathers may be more interesting more spiky more distinctive in their different ways but that means that they are they have enemies they have people who don't like them everybody

1:11:41Tom Holland:likes and respects washington but you said that he's he's got a very memorial quality that he's like a statue hewn out of marble. And that is an enormous advantage if you have an unstable republic. And you need a kind, I'm literally heavyweight, someone who's hewn out of marble, who will provide the kind of dignity that you need in a head of state in the early years of your infant republic, but who will also serve as a kind of monument to that republic after his death. And they must all be kind of thinking of this.

1:12:14Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah, I think exactly right. So we've got a bonus episode coming up for our Restless History Club members, where I talk to Ken Burns, the documentary filmmaker. And he's made this massive series, a billion episodes about the American Revolution. And he says in this, Washington is the kind of indispensable, he's the one indispensable man, without which it could not have succeeded. A rare example of a great man of history who lives up to his reputation. However, just in case people are thinking they've gone mad, they've gone native, they're sucking up to the colonials, I should stress this. Even American heroes have feet of clay, or in Washington's case, teeth of clay, Tom.

1:12:56Dominic Sandbrook:Because by the time the war ends, George Washington's teeth, which would end with this crucial point, are in an absolutely shocking state. By 1781, he was wearing dentures that were held together with this crude wire mesh. In 1784, so a year after the war ended, he bought nine teeth from unknown African-Americans. And these teeth were then transplanted into his gums. And by the time he became president in 1789, for all that George III said he was the greatest man in the world, he had just one working tooth left, which is why as president, I think, he went on to say They have almost nothing memorable or interesting whatsoever.

1:13:39Dominic Sandbrook:And Tom, that I think is why since the dawn of their republic 250 years ago, Americans' terrible teeth have been the cause of so much innocent amusement all over the world. And nowhere more so, of course, than in our own beloved country in Britain. And so the ultimate lesson of this story is that if you want to have proper teeth, teeth like the British, British teeth, then you should pay your taxes.

1:14:04Tom Holland:Thank you, Dominic. And we have more to come. So Benjamin Franklin is next, the great scientist and diplomat in France. Then we have Alexander Hamilton and his duel with Aaron Burr and then Thomas Jefferson. We also have an amazing couple of American Revolution bonuses. So as Dominic mentioned, the world's greatest historical documentary maker, the legendary Ken Burns. And then we will be talking to very much friend of the show, Conan O 'Brien, for his views on the Founding Fathers. And on top of that, of course, there's a massive array of supplementary benefits, including our brilliant newsletter.

1:14:45Tom Holland:So to get all this, therestishistory.com, you know what to do. Sign up there.

1:14:51Dominic Sandbrook:And one other thing we should mention, actually. So we are doing our Restless History Festival at Hampton Court this weekend. It's got tons of exciting events the saturday i'm sorry to say is sold out that's disappointing for people who wants to get tickets but the good news is that there are still one or two tickets available i think for sunday there'll be all kinds of treats but among them will be the appearance of friends of the show helen castor william dalrymple adam smith katia hoyer and very excitingly ian hislop the editor of private eye magazine and if you'd like to get a ticket go to the rest is history.com

1:15:23Tom Holland:we will be back in our next episode with benjamin franklin but for now thank you dominic thank you for listening bye-bye bye-bye

1:15:42Tom Holland:this episode is brought to you by google chrome you think you know a browser but gemini and chrome that's new it can help you with practically anything on the web like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. Athletic Brewing Company crafts award-winning non-alcoholic beers for those who want to be part of every round. With over 185 flavor awards, they're exceptional NA beers that fit your lifestyle and any social occasion.

1:16:22Tom Holland:Summer's full of good times and athletic fits right in. Go to athleticbrewing.com to have brews delivered to your door or find them at a bar, restaurant or store near you. Near Beer. Athletic Brewing Company. Fit for all times. Spotify, it's Jay Shetty. Are you one of those media strategy people? Scrolling through spreadsheets, searching for an audience that pays twice as much attention to your ads than they do on social? Let me introduce you to fans. and they're here with me on Spotify. Trust me, I know fans. They don't skip, they stay for hours. They don't move on, they manifest. They're not a demographic group, they're fans.

1:17:04Tom Holland:Spotify Advertising, you're among fans.