710. The Terror: Death at the Guillotine (Part 4)

20:03Dominic Sandbrook:However, the thing on which they're all united at this point is the policy of terror. So you described how they passed the thing called the law of suspects. The law of suspects allows them to arrest anybody. Yeah, that's basically it, isn't it? To arrest anybody. Anybody, yeah. Basically. If basically your conduct associations, talks or writings identify you as an enemy of the people or an enemy of liberty, then you've committed a crime. So there's that. The Paris Commune, I love this. the Paris Commune has drawn up and published a list of characteristics that render people suspect. These include speaking cryptically of the misfortunes of the revolution, spreading bad news, and this is the best one, affecting excessive severity in order to appear Republican.

20:51Dominic Sandbrook:So in other words, if you seem too keen on the revolution, you're probably a traitor. and this they say very specifically the list of enemies of the people includes those who while not having done anything against liberty also haven't done anything for it yeah so if you've literally done nothing at all you're probably a traitor and an enemy of the people

21:14Tom Holland:if you're against the revolution then you're guilty and if you seem like you're in favor of the revolution then you're guilty and there's not really much leeway between those two categories

21:22Dominic Sandbrook:No, it's a very hard balance to strike. And in his History of the Revolution, the American historian Jeremy Popkin says, the great irony of this is a republic that is devoted to the rights of man. You know, the first, really the first state in history to be so explicitly devoted, even far more so than the American Republic, to this utopian creed is running a prison system that is now on a scale without precedent in the Western world. So by the summer of 1794, by the time it's all over, about half a million people have been through the French prison system. Now, most of them do come out again. They obviously don't guillotine anything like a majority of these people.

22:02Dominic Sandbrook:And even in Paris at the height of the terror, if you were accused of a capital offence, Tom, for example, had you been too enthusiastic in your support of the revolution and outed yourself therefore as a traitor, the chances are that you'd still come out with your head on your shoulders.

22:18Tom Holland:Unless I was an aristocrat.

22:20Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah, that's true. Or Marie Antoinette. So the official death toll of the terror, I mean, estimates differ. Timothy Tackett gives a figure. It says the official death toll is 17 ,000 people, which in the scale of the great slaughters of the 20th century is not great. If you include in that deaths in prison from starvation and disease, you're probably looking at 40 ,000. And then if you look at the Vendée and so on, you're hundreds and hundreds of thousands. But, you know, it's not as enormous as the 20th century killing. Now, it's important to remember this is not senseless killing. It is killing with a purpose.

22:55Dominic Sandbrook:I mean, that sounds a terrible thing to say, but they drew up the terror as this improvised response to the crises facing France in the summer of 1793. And basically, the terror does kind of do the trick. Yeah, it works. Yeah, they are back on their feet. So let's give you a couple of examples. The economy was in meltdown. They have passed a thing called the Law of the General Maximum, which introduces these strict wage and price controls. And in the short time, it works. It props up the paper money, the assigner, and Paris is still getting supplied with just enough food to keep going. So that's fine.

23:31Dominic Sandbrook:Obviously, they're winning the war. I mean, they've turned the tide in the war. So there are two big victories in the autumn against Britain and Austria at a place called Enchute and Vatigny. And then we talked a little bit about this last time. they've turned the tide against the Federalist rebels and against the Vendayans. So they recaptured Lyon on the 9th of October. And then a week later, they won this big victory against the Vendayan rebels at Cholet. So at this point, let's say October. So this is about the point when Danton is falling ill and going away. You might say, well, brilliant, the terror has worked.

24:07Dominic Sandbrook:Why don't we ease off now? We don't need to arrest so many people. we can give the sans-son and the people working on the guillotine can have a few days off and actually there are people saying that at this point even you know there are people have the courage to say it so there's a writer and deputy called louis-sébastien merci and he said i can't believe we're continuing with the terror the montagnards are men of blood and mud stupid and ferocious beasts so what happens to him of course he's thrown into prison yeah yes not reasonable to say such things. It's counter-revolutionary, isn't it? And part of that is because Robespierre and Saint-Just, I think in particular, have a vision of the terror that goes beyond just winning the war.

24:50Dominic Sandbrook:They at this point see it as an essential tool to transform France into this virtuous, sort of almost utopian republic. And they are doing what they see as positive things as well as just guillotining people now. So to give you a couple of examples, they are encouraging lots of local jacobin clubs in the provinces. They're saying, you know, it's your job to go out there and to convert France, to start again, sing patriotic songs, have rallies, have readings, do all this stuff, educate the people.

25:23Tom Holland:Well, don't forget, Robespierre had been to a Jesuit educational foundation, and the Jesuits are very keen on, you know, give me the child and I will give you the man. Exactly that.

25:34Dominic Sandbrook:Education is a huge part of this, Tom. Yeah. Education, education, education, as another great revolutionary said. They have a plan for free education to the age of 13, and they have a new curriculum which will inculcate Republican virtues. They're very interested in a very 21st century way in language and in the names of things. So they want to rename whole towns, whole streets, parks and things after the virtues that they think the republic should celebrate. So in Orléans, for example, the different neighborhoods are renamed. They're called things like Liberté, Egalité, Brutus, Rousseau, and so on and so forth.

26:12Dominic Sandbrook:I mean, that's something we're very familiar with today. was it somewhere like Birmingham had a diversity street you know integration avenue kindness close

26:21Tom Holland:or whatever diversity street I think was the name of a song sung by David Brent

26:29Dominic Sandbrook:well that says it all doesn't it the true heir to the revolution a very disturbing thing actually probably the worst thing they're doing is designing the metric system yeah that's very bad isn't it So plans have been afoot for that for a little while. The convention is still working on it. The convention says the metric system is a symbol of the equality and a gauge of the fraternity that should unite all men. Because, of course, it's rooted in rationality rather than in organic tradition. Chaotic imperial madness. Exactly. And talking about language, they want to eliminate the polite vous. So anyone who studied French at school will know there are two words for you.

27:07Dominic Sandbrook:tu and vu and they want to stop people saying vu because it is old-fashioned and formal although one person who cannot stop himself is maximilien robespierre because he's so prim and formal and he automatically keeps saying vu when everyone else would be saying tu

27:25Tom Holland:in the same way that he's wearing his culotte and his waistcoats i mean it's good to know that

27:30Dominic Sandbrook:they want to make french more like english yeah exactly get rid of the genders i think that would be the key thing no le and la no need for it so there's a lot going on and yet there are some people who think it should go even further and chief among them is a man we met last time he's the editor of a newspaper called the per du chen he is the scatological pornographic ultra populist jacques hebert the scourge of marie antoinette a man who i'm guessing that most people who listen to our last episode will not have a positive view now of this bloke. And Hebert presents himself. He says, I am the champion of the working classes and of the streets.

28:11Dominic Sandbrook:People are angry about high prices and food shortages, and the government should do something about it. They should be regulating the economy. They should be ensuring cheaper food. They should be having more surveillance to stop all the aristocrats who are clearly behind all this. People should be informing on their neighbors for hoarding food. And we should be executing merchants and shopkeepers who are not selling cheap food. It's blue sky. Yeah. Yeah. Hebert is really going for it. So there's that. He's really going for the shopkeepers, but he's really going for the Catholic Church. We'll be talking more about the sort of religious side of the revolution in the next episode.

28:53Dominic Sandbrook:But for now, just to simplify it, Hebert and his allies, particularly in the sort of government of Paris, the Commune, are really keen on this de-Christianization, anti-clerical agenda. They want to convert churches to temples of reason. They want priests to show their Republican commitment by abjuring their vows, getting married, giving up the church. And they get a fair bit of momentum towards the end of 1793. So of about 60 ,000 priests in France, some 18 ,000 of them under pressure from Hebert and his cronies abandon their status as priests including the Bishop of Paris hey Dominic the Archbishop of Paris to you the Archbishop of Paris I can't

29:40Tom Holland:believe I've missed I've misbishoped him he's encouraged he's encouraged to do this by um Chomet and Hebert who pay a visit to him and say that unless you do it tomorrow you will be sentenced to death as an enemy of the people and the whole being a martyr thing doesn't really

29:58Dominic Sandbrook:kick in with him he goes fine whatever he had a look at like the record of martyrs that he presumably had been speaking about for decades he said actually on balance i probably will give it

30:06Tom Holland:up yeah yeah i actually wanted to get married anyway and the irony is he ends up being guillotined

30:11Dominic Sandbrook:oh no that's terrible for having abetted the terror so they're holding bonfires of sacred you know relics investments and things they bear and co most famously in notre dame on the 10th of November, they hold this festival of reason. And it's a deliberately kind of sacrilegious festival. So Hebert, in place of the altar, which he calls a stage for charlatans, he puts up a throne of liberty and he gets a very nubile young woman to come and play the goddess Liberty. Very nubile, but apparently with bad teeth.

30:45Tom Holland:And slightly scantily dressed. Very scantily dressed. And she's perched on what will be a bit of a theme of this whole de-Christianization movement, which is a papier-mâché mountain, which is placed in the middle of the nave. And they put a Greek temple on it, and she sits on the top.

31:01Dominic Sandbrook:They carry her through the streets, don't they, to the convention. And they install her in the convention next to the president of the convention, who presumably is delighted by this. So the thing is, I mean, obviously, there are a lot of people in France who are good Catholics. and a lot of people who take religion quite seriously and who are shocked by this. And one of these people, I mean, he's not necessarily a good Catholic, but he thinks it's a serious business. And that's Maximilien Robespierre. He hates it. Robespierre is a deist, isn't he? Yeah. He believes in the supreme being. Robespierre is not a man for a satirical joke or indeed any form of joke.

31:35Dominic Sandbrook:No. And he is horrified by all this.

31:38Tom Holland:I think in two levels. I think as a believer in a deity, but also he sees it as mad to needlessly offend Catholics. What's the point?

31:49Dominic Sandbrook:I think you're absolutely right. He thinks it's wrong, but he thinks it's politically wrong as well. And Robespierre, whenever he sees somebody make a mistake or do something that he thinks could undermine their cause, his natural reaction, his instinctive reaction is to say, well, why would Hebert do that? has Hebert been put up to this? Why would he do something that will help our enemies? So there's a seed of something in his head, I think, from this point. Anyway, 21st of November, so just a few days after this, Robert Spear gives a speech. He attacks the atheist campaign for what he calls its exaggerated zeal.

32:26Dominic Sandbrook:And actually, thanks to his encouragement, the convention then votes a couple of weeks later to uphold and protect freedom of worship. In other words, if you are a good Catholic, don't worry, carry on. We won't let Hebert throw you on the bonfire, as it were. Now, above all, at the beginning of December 1793, the convention passes a thing called the Law of Freemare, which reasserts the power of the central government. This is under the pressure from the committees. The committees say, look, Hebert, radicals, people on the streets, all of this, they should not be directing the revolution. we should and the convention votes that basically the convention and the committees will control what happens we are not going to let other people do this and this is really important because the trend of the revolution has been so anarchic for basically decentralization giving power away and now they're turning back and they're saying actually we've gone far too far down this road we need a proper efficient government however that doesn't mean they want to dismantle the terror.

33:30Dominic Sandbrook:What they want to do is to centralise the terror, to institutionalise it as the guiding principle of government into 1794. It's not going to end before 1794, that's clear. It probably isn't going to end in 1794. In fact, is the terror ever going to end at all? Well, so this is the context for Danton to return to Paris from the countryside where he has been ill. And he comes back around the 19th of November. So that is the peak of Hebert's campaign against Christianity, and the terror is in full swing. Slightly disappointingly, it's quite hard for us to know what Danton is thinking. Unusually, we have really few sources about Danton compared with other big figures of the revolution.

34:18Dominic Sandbrook:But as far as we can tell, Danton is tired of the relentless radicalization. He thinks the terror should probably start to be wound down. He thinks we can't wage war against all these enemies forever. Some sort of deal is going to have to be made with the Austrians and the Prussians. And ultimately, we've got our republic now. Let's enjoy it. Let's settle down and have some stable, sensible government. Have a massive dinner. Yeah. He's becoming a little bit restless politics, isn't he? He's becoming a little bit sort of sensible government. So in the next few weeks, he gathers this little group of supporters and they're called the let's anglicize it they're called the indulgence so in other words they are called they are people who you know agree with him we should calm down a bit people should agree disagreeably agree disagreeably exactly sorry should disagree yeah hold on no on the rest is politics they agree disagreeably don't they yeah um and most of the people who associate with Danton then I mean the thing is they are at this point because he's slightly unfashionable they are not the absolute big name top dogs they're slightly second-rank figures he's been dropped from the football team he's on the bench yeah he has been and the people who's hanging out with that the people who can't even get into the first team so to give an example that somebody will come back to he's a former actor and poet called Philippe Fabre de Glantine and this book fab he designed the new revolutionary calendar but the one really interesting person that d 'antan associates with an old friend of his actually someone we've met before back in the i mean about 17 years ago when we started the french revolution he's a young man called camille desmoulins if listeners can remember just before the fall of the bastille there was this scene of this young man pale long-haired standing up in the palais royal in the center of paris on a table in a cafe exhorting everybody to rise up against Louis XVI.

36:20Dominic Sandbrook:And this was kind of one of the great triggers of the whole revolution. And this guy, Camille Desmoulins, he's now 33 years old. But people always treat him like he's about 10, don't they? They do. They completely infantilise him. They don't call him Desmoulins. They always call him Camille by his first name because they see him as immature. Robespierre and Camille had been at school together. They had been to the same Lycée Louis-Le-Camp. uh desmoulins was two years younger than robespierre but they were great friends they read cicero they read tacitus they read rousseau all of this robespierre was a witness at desmoulins wedding he married a very sparky clever young woman called lucille who also was very invested in the revolution god i hope nothing bad happens to her yeah i mean I haven't introduced her, I need to kill her off.

37:12Dominic Sandbrook:Desmoulins is much more excitable than his friend Maximilien. He is more sentimental. He becomes a Montagnard deputy, but no one ever gives him a proper job. And as you say, he's always seen as a bit of a, one historian calls him an immature lightweight. So, you know, he's unreliable. He's a bit babyish, all of this. Camille Desmoulins has been shocked by the turn towards the terror. And he was reportedly horrified by the execution of the Girondin. It was claimed later that he had cried out in horror when the death sentence was handed down. And by the time Danton comes back, Desmoulins has started to publicly call for particular acts of clemency.

37:55Dominic Sandbrook:For example, because of the sort of xenophobia of the revolution in some ways, of the terror anyway, they're clamping down on foreign citizens and Desmoulins says, oh, this is really unfair, you know, leave them alone. Now, he's a useful ally to Danton for two reasons. Number one, because Desmoulins is friends with Robespierre, childhood friends. So useful to have him. But also because Desmoulins, for all his supposed immaturity, he's a very talented journalist. And two weeks after Danton's return, and almost certainly with Danton's encouragement and connivance, he launches a new newspaper. It's called Le Vieux Cordelier, The Old Cordelier.

38:35Dominic Sandbrook:and it's sort of looking back to the early days of the revolution you know remember the old days when we were full of idealism you know at the cordillet club in the cordillet district all of this the first issue of this comes out on the 5th of december and it's a blistering attack on hebert and his faction and demulian says you know hebert takes public money to produce this newspaper and he fills it with the language of the charnel house hebert talks about how he loves the revolution Yet when I was giving speeches encouraging people to march on the Bastille, what was Hebert? He was collecting tickets in the Variety Theatre, which he was.

39:11Dominic Sandbrook:He was a ticket collector. The second edition, five days later, Damien Lange goes for Hebert's atheism. He says, this campaign against Christianity is undermining the revolution. It's doing the foreigners' work for them. And both of these issues have been read and approved by Robespierre. Robespierre is fine with them because Robespierre thinks Hebert's getting a kicking. Brilliant. You know, Robespierre is sick of Hebert. But then the next two issues, which come out on the 15th and the 20th of December, go much further. So the 15th, which is issue three, Demula prints an attack on the terror, and he disguises it as a sort of fake translation from Tacitus.

39:54Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah. So it's basically Roman emperors, you know, swapped liberty for tyranny. they change simple glances sadness compassion size even silence into crimes so there's that and then issue number four is a really direct challenge to the government damien land says we have lost sight of what this revolution was meant to be about it was meant to be about happiness reason equality justice he says we've got two committees public safety and general security we should have a committee of clemency because we've got 200 000 people in prison and i think we should let a lot of these people go they've done nothing wrong be kind to them yeah and he addresses rob spear directly his old friend and he says you want to remove all your enemies by means of the guillotine has there ever been such great folly and these two issues are an absolute sensation so government agents report to the committees that they are selling out people are reading them out in the cafes people are applauding what they're hearing and why have they struck such a chord why they've struck such a chord goes back to something outside paris obviously there are always people who don't like a police state so there are lots of people who don't like the terror never liked it but also there are i think specific reasons of timing first of all these issues come out precisely the point when uh the french have just had an amazing victory they have retaken the crucial naval base at Toulon.

41:27Dominic Sandbrook:From the British. Not least, from the British. Thanks not least to a young man called Napoleon Bonaparte. So the war is now going really quite well. But at the same time, news is reaching Paris around about Christmas 1793, and then the early days of 1794, about the reprisals that are taking place where they've already defeated the rebels. So we'll be hearing more about these in the next episode. But Lyon, thousands of people blown up by cannons or bayoneted or shot. Nantes, 2 ,000 people drowned, forcibly drowned in boats that were towed out into the Loire and then deliberately sunk. And then, of course, the Vendée.

42:08Dominic Sandbrook:So in the Vendée, thousands of people executed, entire towns wiped out, children, women forced to dig their own mass graves. One junior officer, I mean, this quote repeats it a couple of times in general, this is the revolution. it really jumps out at you. One junior officer wrote, we will use steel and flames, a rifle in one hand, a burning torch in the other. Men and women, all of them must die except the small children. But the bonkers thing about that, he wrote it to his mother. Yeah. Like that was just letter. Dear mummy, just to fill you in on what's going on. Anyway, even in Paris, there are a lot of people who think this is actually going much too far.

42:50Dominic Sandbrook:This is, this is bonkers. Like, we can't kill everybody. Rob Speier is not one of them. Rob Speier doesn't like the arbitrary use of terror. No. But Rob Speier does believe in terror as a guiding principle. He does believe that violence must go hand in hand with virtue because otherwise virtue is powerless. It must be virtuous.

43:11Tom Holland:Yes, exactly. But he's not in favour of random atrocities to the degree that some of the revolutionaries are, I think.

43:18Dominic Sandbrook:Exactly. We will see. he falls out with people who he thinks are just being sadists yeah but rob spear thinks if it's properly planned and if these people are enemies the people sure they've got to go yeah so when demoulin's attacking the terror rob share thinks well this is just stupid and childish from demoulin he's not serious when donton attacks the terror rob spear thinks this is typical donton he's corrupt he's too lax he's worldly again he's unserious about protecting what we've got so So on Christmas Day, which is now a working day for the convention, there's the fifth day of Niveaus, as they call it, under their new calendar.

43:56Dominic Sandbrook:Robespierre gets up and he gives a big speech in the convention. And he says, you know, I'm going to explain the principles of our revolutionary government. Robespierre says, we are fighting for liberty against its enemies. And the war is not over. Robespierre sets out his theory of what becomes known as the foreign plot. So this is, of course, something that has been brewing since the beginning of the revolution. Borostria says, you know, I know that Britain, Austria and Prussia have a secret network inside France. They have agents in the clubs. They have agents in the ministries. They have agents here in the convention among the people I'm talking to.

44:35Dominic Sandbrook:There are people who are working with the British. They know all about us. They caress our passions. They try to sway our opinions. They turn our own resolutions against us.

44:47Tom Holland:And Dominic, they have his brother, Augustin, been to Toulon. He'd been a kind of agent on the scene at Toulon. And so he had been there and seen for himself the collaboration in Toulon with the British. So he's paranoid about the British.

45:02Dominic Sandbrook:And the very fact that people are arguing in Paris is for obviously a proof. Pitt's gold. Exactly. British gold. So he says, you know, we in your committees, are we going to ignore the voices on the one side that are saying that are fanatical and overzealous, and on the other side, the voices of kind of weakness and moderation. We're going to stick to our course and do the right thing. And there's this great torrent of applause from the convention, and Robespierre breathes a sigh of relief. However, this does not solve the issue of Danton and Desmoulins, because what does he do about them? His friends.

45:39Dominic Sandbrook:Two weeks later, Rob Speier goes to the Jacquemain Club. And it's a very febrile mood in the Jacquemain Club because, of course, they are Jacquemains too. And Rob Speier actually starts the meeting in quite a conciliatory style. He says, look, what I'm going to say to you tonight is enough of the factions. I see no factions anymore. I see only Frenchmen. You know, there's just us, the French people, against our enemies. This is what the Kaiser said, by the way, at the beginning of the First World War. I see only Germans.

46:08Tom Holland:Is there anything that would join all French people in the common cause, Dominic, that they could rally behind?

46:14Dominic Sandbrook:I mean, you think you've heard some bad things in this episode with the drownings and the shootings, but now it gets worse. I should warn listeners, if you're driving, pull over, because Robespierre is going to say something very, very incendiary. This is a massive trigger warning. He says, for tonight's debate, I propose the following subject. The crimes of the English government and the vices of the British constitution. Monstrous. That's insane from Robespierre. He's really let himself down. He deserves everything he gets. So they're about to embark on this demented debate, slacking off the British.

46:45Dominic Sandbrook:And then Desmoulins turns up. He turns up late. And as he makes his way in, there's a bit of heckling. Some of the hardliners are shouting at Desmoulins, I hate your newspaper. And there's an argument that breaks out about the newspaper. And some people start shouting at Robespierre, are you going to condemn this? He's your friend. And Robespierre tries to play this cleverly because he is still very fond of Desmoulins. And he says, I agree. Camille should renounce his political heresies. His writings are dangerous. They give hope to our enemies. And then Robespierre says, however, we should distinguish between the person and his works.

47:24Dominic Sandbrook:I mean, this is so patronizing. Camille is a thoughtless child. He's 33, who has good inclinations, but he's been led astray by bad company. And the bad company is Danton, is it? Danton and people like that. Exactly. So let's not expel him from the club. Let's burn his newspaper in front of the members of the club. To Rob Spears' horror, Desmoulins does not take this as the gift that Rob Spears intends. Desmoulins is like, what? Burn the newspaper? Are you mad? And Desmoulins says, I reply in the words of Rousseau, burning is not an answer.

48:00Tom Holland:So that's a famous phrase from Rousseau. and Rousseau is Robespierre's great hero and political lodestar.

48:06Dominic Sandbrook:Imagine how provocative that is for Robespierre. This huge argument breaks out. Robespierre basically issues a threat to Demelan. He says, you must learn Camille that if you were not Camille, you would not be treated so lightly. In other words, watch your head. And actually, of all people, the person who jumps in to try to say, come on, let's leave it. Let's leave it. It's Danton. Danton. So Danton jumps in, managed to calm it down. But what Danton does not know is that Robespierre is now in possession of a secret that could destroy him. Because in the last few weeks, informants have been coming to Robespierre and Saint-Just with bombshell revelations about this foreign conspiracy to undermine the revolution.

48:54Dominic Sandbrook:And these are revelations that for Danton will be literally fatal.

48:59Tom Holland:Blimey, what could these revelations be? Only one way to find out. Join us after the break.

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49:58Tom Holland:Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney+.

50:04Dominic Sandbrook:What are you waiting for? Hop on.

50:06Tom Holland:The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney+. This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. I like this kid. Always wear your seatbelt. Star Wars, The Mandalorian and Grogu. Now streaming on Disney+. Read PG-13.

50:29Tom Holland:Welcome back to The Rest is History. So, Dominic, at the end of part one, you were promising bombshell revelations. What are these bombshell revelations?

50:39Dominic Sandbrook:Okay. So one day in the middle of October 1793, one of Danton's friends, the bloke who designed the new calendar, Philippe Fabre d 'Aiglantin he sounds a wrong name yeah a terrible name he asked to see Robespierre and Saint-Just and they met him and they met him along with the Committee of General Security the Police Committee and Fabre said to them I have sensational information about the foreign plot to undermine the revolution he said I have uncovered this network of spies and basically financiers speculators Spanish, Belgian, Austrian Czech, Prussian, loads of different names. It's this big web of very shady characters, and a lot of these people are posing as foreign friends of the revolution.

51:27Dominic Sandbrook:And they are being funded by the worst people in the world, the British, by William Pitt. They have infiltrated our clubs, they've infiltrated the convention, they have even infiltrated the ruling committees. And it is these people who are funding the factions criticizing the government for example hebert and his ultra radical campaign they are the spearhead of this and rob spear and saint just listen to this and they are shocked of course they're appalled by it but they are not surprised because of course they've always believed there was a foreign plot this is just confirming everything they had suspected is there really a foreign plot no this is the crazy thing this bloke fab has made all this up so basically this isn't an absolutely bonkers story fab has made this up to hide his own corruption so what fab has been doing is we mentioned the first half that there's been a lot of corruption there's a lot of money changing hands bribes and all of this fab and some of his pals have been extorting and embezzling vast sums of money from banks, from life insurance companies, and above all from a company called the French East India Company, which is in the process of being wound up by government order.

52:51Fabris has been taking all this money and Fabris worried that Hebert is going to

52:56Dominic Sandbrook:expose him. So what he thought he'd do is he thought, well, I'll denounce Hebert as a tool of a foreign conspiracy. I'll tell Robespierre what he wants to believe. I'll bring down Hebert before he can expose my corruption.

53:09Tom Holland:Because that's the key, isn't it? That he's telling Robespierre what he knows Robespierre will want to hear. Completely.

53:15Dominic Sandbrook:Exactly. Now, at first, Robespierre and co. don't do anything with this information. They sort of sit on it. But clearly, people are talking because rumors start to spread. And the rumors spread around the convention. There's talk of corruption. There's talk of foreign bankers and embezzling and the plot and all this. And at this, another deputy, who's called Francois Chabot, he's also worried about being exposed for quite separate corruption. So he goes to see Robespierre with a different conspiracy. He says, I have evidence that foreigners and royalists are behind a plot to embezzle money from the East India Company.

53:59Dominic Sandbrook:got it i mean if you had shares in these in your company you'd be getting them out with all this talk going around you would so that's the company that fab has he has been embezzling from so at this point rob spear has information from two different people about basically two different plots both of them are kind of fictional but both of them are inspired by real corruption by people trying to cover up their own corruption and rob spear when he sits down and looks at these plots he says well it's pretty obvious that both of these plots are real and they're both part clearly of the same conspiracy there's this massive spider's web of foreign financiers corrupt deputies and the east india company and as robespierre sits and thinks about it he thinks well this explains everything this explains hebert and his attack on the christian church it explains all the faction fighting the criticism that we've been getting about the terror and the convention.

54:55Dominic Sandbrook:All of this is being funded by the British. That flipping William Pitts is behind the whole thing. And Fab, remember, is friends with Danton. And Danton is famously corrupt. Danton is incredibly corrupt. Both Fab and Danton have been criticising the terror. So, at this point, does Robespierre seriously think that Danton is part of a foreign conspiracy? I think it's very hard to say because we don't have a window into Robespierre's mind. But what is definitely true is that if Robespierre wanted to think that, he now has the ammunition to do it.

55:30Tom Holland:There's also all the chat of the fact that Danton had been making over to Marie Antoinette and the Austrians in the summer. So this is all part of the swirl of conspiracy theory.

55:44Dominic Sandbrook:There's a lot of chat about Danton generally, isn't there? I think there's been, for months, there has been talk that Danton is not quite as pure. He's not as dedicated. Well, he's not incorruptible. No, exactly. So, Robespierre doesn't rush into action. I think if Robespierre had genuinely been burning with hatred for Danton, he would have used this straight away. He doesn't. What he does, though, is he prepares the ground. So all through January 1794, they've had this row at the Jacquemain Club, which we had before the break. In the next few weeks, he's talking to the enforcers of the revolution, the Committee of General Security, who run the police in the Revolutionary Tribunal.

56:25Dominic Sandbrook:And a lot of the people on the Committee of General Security hate Danton because they quite enjoy running the terror. And one of these guys is called Vadier. And Vadier says, when they're talking about Danton, Vadier says, he has this extraordinary line i'm looking forward to gutting that fat turbot and when word of this reaches danton uh if you forgive my language it's danton's language not mine he says if vadier touches me i will eat his brains and shit in his skull it's just like cicero yeah it's like the dying days of the kirstama government um so the 17th of january to 10 days after the row at the jacobin the committee of general security make their first move they arrest fab and they arrest chabot so these are the two informants and they arrest a few of uh danton's other friends now meanwhile the tension between danton and robespierre is growing almost day by day danton is still giving speeches saying you know we should not go to extremes if anything we should err on the side of liberty and when he says about erring on the side of liberty that seems to send a coded message that he's against the terror.

57:34Dominic Sandbrook:There's then a sort of pause for 10 days, which is dominated by arguments about the revolt in what's now Haiti in Saint-Domingue, and ultimately the abolition of slavery. A huge, huge issue, huge deal. We don't really have time for it. Today, we'll have to do it in a separate series, I think. But the day after the abolition of slavery, which is the 5th of February, Robespierre gives another of these landmark speeches, clearly aimed at Danton. It's a banger of a speech, this. It's a big speech. What's the point of the revolution? What's the point of the terror? And he borrows from Cicero, of course, who they've all read.

58:13Dominic Sandbrook:They're all obsessed with Cicero. And he paints this picture of this republic of virtue in which vices will become virtues and all of this. And he says, we want France to be the model to the nations, the terror of oppressors, the consolation of the oppressed, the ornament of the universe. That is our ambition. That is our aim. You know, a wonderful vision. But we cannot have that without the terror. Without terror, virtue is powerless. Terror is nothing but prompt, severe, inflexible justice. Famous, chilling words. Yeah. And he says, you know, the critics of the terror say the terror is falling on ordinary people, but it isn't.

58:58Dominic Sandbrook:Because if you're a virtuous patriot and you're a citizen, you have nothing to fear. If you are against us, you have no rights because you cannot be a citizen. You're putting yourself outside the republic. So as long as you stay in the tent, the terror will never fall on you. You don't have anything to worry about. Now, as R.R. Palmer says in his great book, Twelve Who Ruled, the thing about this is basically it's kind of a recipe for permanent terror. because Robespierre is saying the terror will fall on you if you ever step outside the tent. But basically he's saying if you ever criticize or if you ever disagree, you are not a citizen.

59:37Dominic Sandbrook:You are not a patriot. You are not a Frenchman. And therefore, there's only one way you're headed and that's you're getting on your tumble.

59:44Tom Holland:This is the kind of blueprint for the 20th century totalitarian states. But I guess to defend Robespierre, he doesn't know that. He is still negotiating the contours of this kind of new dispensation, which is something very novel and potentially chilling, as you said. But I think you have to believe in Robespierre's incorruptibility. He does think he's doing the right thing.

1:00:17Dominic Sandbrook:But that's the chilling thing, though, isn't it, about Robespierre? He's totally sincere.

1:00:21Tom Holland:Yeah.

1:00:21Dominic Sandbrook:If he was here now, he would say, you don't understand. I am going to build a better world. I genuinely am interested in virtue because virtue without terror is nothing. That's exactly what he thinks. That is exactly what he thinks. It's telling, I think, people keep falling ill so often in this series. It's a sign of how overwrought Rob Spear is that he gives the speech and he immediately falls ill, overworked, stressed. He seems, I mean, everybody has it, but he does seem especially prone to burnout. and he retreats for almost a month to the duplet family's house which is where he lodges which you described before now while he's away the pressure carries on building france is now mobilizing militarily on an unprecedented scale in european history 700 000 men in uniform the whole economy is basically being put to work to feed and supply the army and that means that everything else is deteriorating.

1:01:20Dominic Sandbrook:So on the 23rd of February, government agents report to the committees. The situation in Paris is really alarming. There are shops that are completely empty. The butchers are all closed. People are fighting in the streets for food. And when merchants arrive in the city with supplies in the countryside, they're being attacked by mobs of women who are scrabbling to get all this bread or vegetables or whatever. So it's like 1789 all over again. It is like 1789 all over again. But the committee are very unsympathetic. So the committee actually say, well, if the public, you know, they're whinging about no bread, they must cultivate Spartan virtues.

1:01:55Dominic Sandbrook:Georges Couton says, what are they complaining about? All they need is a single scrap of me today. If I had the police power in my hands, I would make privation the order of the day. Slogans for happier France. Of course, the person who's benefiting from this is Hebert on the ultra-radical wing. Because by early February, Hebert has turned his rhetoric up to 11. He is running these absolutely ferocious editorials saying, you know, tavern keepers, butchers, grocers, farmers, get them all to the guillotine. If they can't provide for the people of Paris, we will, you know, punish them until they do.

1:02:34Dominic Sandbrook:There are protests in the streets. There's this sort of sense that we've had so often the revolution of momentum, of tension, of moving towards an inevitable showdown. And that moment seems to come on the 4th of March, 1794. Hebert goes to the Cordelier Club, founded ironically by Danton. And he says, you know, heads have got a role. I've got a list here of 73 deputies. These are people who supported the Girondin. They've got to go. Demolain's got to go. There's a load of moderates and weaklings. They're traitors. They've got to go. And at the end of this meeting, they take a black veil and they put it over the framed picture of the Declaration of the Rights of Man.

1:03:16Dominic Sandbrook:And they say, we are not going to withdraw it until the people have recovered their sacred rights. And everybody understands this is the cue, the signal for a new insurrection, a new attack on the convention, effectively a new sans-culottes coup. But the difference between this and previous ones is that this one fizzles out almost immediately. Because they call to the sections of Paris, the neighborhoods, but only one of them, the Caudilliers, their own one, Hebert's home one, is the only one that answers the call. The Paris Commune, the city government, doesn't call out the National Guard. There is a sense, I think, that Paris is exhausted.

1:03:58Dominic Sandbrook:that basically people are sick of grabbing their halberds or whatever and taking to the streets.

1:04:04Tom Holland:Is this the first time that an attempt to outflank the kind of establishment on the left fails? Yes, it is. That radicalism up till now has always seemed to have the wind in its sails. And this is the first time that the wind doesn't blow the sails.

1:04:20Dominic Sandbrook:Yes, it is. That's what Hebert's fate absolutely denotes. It's like this far and no further. the radical energies of the revolution have reached that kind of natural limit, I would say. So amid all this, amid all this kind of chaos, the convention votes to renew the powers of the Committee of Public Safety for another month. And that same evening, Robespierre returns from his sickbed for the first time in weeks. And he goes to the Committee of Public Safety. It's a momentous sort of late night meeting. Saint-Just has brought along a big report on the rival factions, a denunciation of the factions.

1:04:55Dominic Sandbrook:He says, I want to read this to the convention tomorrow. The rest of the committee say, fine, go for it. So the next day, the 13th of March, Saint-Just gets up in the tribune of the convention and he reads out what he calls a report on the factions of foreign inspiration and on the conspiracy plotted by them to destroy representative government by corruption and to starve Paris. And Saint-Just says to the convention, Saint-Just is a very compelling speaker. People are frightened of San Jesus as a speaker because he's so good at it. He says, all of this that we see on the streets right now, the food shortages, the political opposition, the sense of mounting chaos.

1:05:33Dominic Sandbrook:This is part of a vast conspiracy masterminded from London, a conspiracy so vast that it's penetrated the clubs and it's working through the factions, people who are moderates, people who are extremists. They're all pretending they are working for our enemies. Every faction is criminal because it works to divide our citizens. And as Palmer says in his book, it's not the voice of revolution. It's not the voice of rebellion. This is the voice, the language of men in power. So it's the language of authority stamping out dissent. And that evening, the committee makes its move. Hebert and his key collaborators are arrested and taken off to prison alongside, and this is a very reign of terror trick.

1:06:18Dominic Sandbrook:this bizarre collection of people that they will just throw in to try to give the appearance of a conspiracy so to quote palmer on this the people arrested included a dutch banker a french general a hairdresser a bookseller a tobacconist a doctor a surgeon's apprentice an ex-peasant woman and someone described as a man of letters string up the man of letters definitely someone described this amount of letters is a very nice touch. It's like in the old days of my mid-market newspaper, when I used to refer to people I disapproved of, as self-styled intellectuals. Anyway, these people are all dragged in front of the tribunal.

1:07:02Dominic Sandbrook:They're accused of being a foreign conspiracy. The trial begins on the 22nd of March. Hebert is accused of trying to undermine the economy, that his attacks on shopkeepers. Abe can't believe this. Yeah, he's the toast of the streets. He's a friend of the people. Yeah, Abe is completely stunned by this. And he doesn't take it seriously, I think. He thinks the streets will rise and rescue him. And this doesn't happen at all. And when he's proclaimed guilty on the 24th of March and he's sentenced to death, Abe is stunned. He can't believe it. Don't you know who I am? Yeah, exactly. He's taken away.

1:07:39Dominic Sandbrook:He's taken straight to the guillotine. There's a massive crowd. And people are so excited about this. I mean, Hebert, the man who wanted to guillotine everybody else, he's getting guillotined. And he disgraces himself. He's a shambles. He's no Marie Antoinette. So he does not behave with the dignity of the ex-queen. No. So one man in the crowd. The government agents reported to the committees what was said. So there's brilliant quotes. One man in the crowd apparently said of Hebert and his collaborators, they died like cowards without balls. and another one sounding very trumpy and i have to say said we thought that abeir would have more courage but he died like a loser thank you for your attention to this matter yeah he died like a dog anyway that's the end of abeir now as you said tom this is a very significant moment in the revolution because it's the first time you've had authority versus the streets and authority has definitively one and there's a sense i think now okay it's clear that where the revolution's not going to go you know it's not going to tip over into this sort of ultra populism however the other implication of this the committees wanted to hold what they saw as the line between the two factions they've basically crushed one what are they going to do about the other which is danton and his allies.

1:09:02Dominic Sandbrook:So now we come back to the issue of Danton and Robespierre. As you said at the beginning, it's seen as this kind of titanic duel between these two completely different personalities, struggle for the soul of the revolution, all of this, a struggle for power between two implacable antagonists. But that's really not right. Robespierre, I think, does not want to kill Danton. That's why it takes so long to do it. And he genuinely, I think, hopes that Danton will come round. So if you've seen the film, in the film from the 1980s, there's this very celebrated scene where Danton and Robespierre have a kind of reconciliation dinner organised by Danton in the film, which I think is not correct.

1:09:45Dominic Sandbrook:And Danton is like stuffing himself with oysters. He's like a man at the rest of his history as Christmas dinner. Wine, port, foie gras, you name it. It's all floating. Exactly. But Robespierre is just sitting there, chilly, doesn't want to eat anything. actually in the written sources most of them say that um they had this meeting danton was very emotional and some of them say danton burst into tears those sources tend to come from the later 19th century and i think what historians think is they probably what probably happened was it might not have been a dinner it might have been a dinner we don't know but they must have had one or more meetings in the last week in march roves-pierre saying to danton Could you give us your support?

1:10:30Dominic Sandbrook:Could you back the committees? You know, surely we can find a way through this. And Danton not playing ball, saying, no, I don't agree with you. I think the terror has to win.

1:10:41Tom Holland:I think, I mean, I remember that Robespierre, the stories that Danton cried, that Robespierre saw this as a malign tactic on the part of Danton to make him feel bad. Yeah, exactly.

1:10:52Dominic Sandbrook:But they're so emotional. They're always crying, aren't they, the French revolutionary leaders? I mean, I don't think it's unreasonable by Danton. Anyway, the truth is, the sources on this are so vague it's impossible to know. What we do know is that by the end of March, Robespierre has made up his mind that Danton has to go. It is clear to Robespierre, Danton is not going to abandon his campaign against the terror. And actually, Desmoulins has prepared a new issue of the Vieux Cordonnier, and it's seen as so damning about the Committee of Public Safety that the printers are refusing to touch it.

1:11:26Dominic Sandbrook:so as Robespierre sees it I mean people always tell the story from Danton's perspective completely understandably and not Robespierre's but just from Robespierre's perspective Robespierre's perspective is Danton is going to destroy the revolution the terror is what's keeping the revolution going and Danton is going to destroy it and he's surrounded himself with a load of kind of total mediocrities and actors

1:11:48Tom Holland:plus he's massively corrupt and he's always taking bungs and you can't have that in a virtuous

1:11:54Dominic Sandbrook:the republic no so the last days of march robsville and saint just prepared the indictment the case as we've said writes itself right the corruption we know that don't took dodgy money robsbierre has all these allegations of massive conspiracies and things and you know don't has been unguarded and he has said things to robsbierre that most people would laugh off but robsbierre He's not a funster. So when Danton said to him, they were talking about virtue, and Danton said to Robespierre, I know no virtue greater than that which I practice every night with my wife. Robespierre does not smile at this.

1:12:33Dominic Sandbrook:He thinks this is disgraceful.

1:12:34Tom Holland:And Saint-Juice thinks it's disgraceful as well. And in the speech that he will give against Danton, he cites that specifically and clearly does not take it as a joke in the slightest. And I think the lesson is it's dangerous to make jokes when Ross-Pierre and Saint-Just are on the scene.

1:12:51Dominic Sandbrook:Completely. So late on the evening of the 29th of March, the drama is set in train. So there's a joint meeting of the Committee of Public Safety and the Committee of General Security. Saint-Just presents them with his indictment. He says, I'm going to read this in the convention tomorrow, and then I'm going to call for Danton's arrest. And the men from the General Security Committee, basically the political police, verdier and amar they say are you mad danton is a brilliant speaker if you read this out in the convention danton will reply he will destroy you and then you'll look like a fool you arrest him first get him safely locked up then denounce him saint just is very offended by this by the thought that they don't rate his rhetorical ability compared with danton's he basically has a strop He throws his hat in the fire and then storms out.

1:13:42Dominic Sandbrook:That is a strop. Yeah, it's a massive sulk. So he storms out. And actually, all the other members of the Committee of Public Safety say, do you know what? You're right. We probably should arrest him first. So they agreed they'll do that. They drew up the warrant. One by one, they sign it. You can see this in the film, very famous scene. One member of the Committee of General Security says he won't sign it. And also a member of the Committee of Public Safety, Robert Linde, who's in charge of supplying the army. and linde says my job is to provide for our citizens not to execute our patriots and that little hint there of a fracture within the committee of public safety between the people who are getting stuff done linde carno and people like that and then the people who love talking about virtue and organizing executions that's going to become more pronounced in a couple of March.

1:14:38Dominic Sandbrook:I think it's pretty clear that in the next few hours, rumours spread and somebody tipped Danton and Desmelaire off. There are various accounts of what was said. Danton supposedly, one version said that he was told, flee the city. And he said, no, they won't move against me. They wouldn't dare. Danton was cocky. Another version he's told to emigrate. And he said, no, I will never leave France. You cannot carry your homeland on the soles of your shoes. a nice line and there are stories that Damoulin went to see his old classmate Maximilien Rospier went to his house but was turned away from the door and said I am lost if he won't see me I'm lost anyway that night the 30th they are arrested they're taken to the Luxembourg prison they're going to face trial by the revolutionary tribunal we don't have any accounts of the scene when they arrested unfortunately but we do know that the next day the 31st the news spread very quickly it was a massive sensation a police agent reported people are stunned and don't know what to think and in the convention a scene of total chaos so one of danton's allies rushes into the convention he says unbelievable danton's been arrested citizens i declare that danton's as pure as i am it's an unwise thing to say yeah i know god i mean lots of trouble why don't you risky so So there's tumult in the hall.

1:16:00Dominic Sandbrook:This guy who broke the news is called Legendre. He says they should bring in the prisoners, bring in Danton and Demer, let them face their accusers, bring in the committee. Let's have this out. And Robespierre forces his way through the shouting throng of people. He's described as pale with anger and seemingly impelled by the sense of a great danger. And he gets up there and he says to the convention, from his perspective, not unreasonably, we've arrested so many people. Why does Danton get special treatment? You know, we should treat the people we arrest equally. And he says to them, do you not have the courage to break a false idol?

1:16:37Dominic Sandbrook:And then he is followed onto the tribunal by Saint-Just. The archangel of death. Icy kind of recital of the charges. Danton was working with the foreign plot. Danton was taking money. And if you doubt it, look what's happening to France. Look at the shortages. Look at the collapse of our currency. Look at the hoarding of goods. Look at the unrest in the provinces. This is all the foreign plot. The men we are denouncing were never patriots. They were aristocrats, more adroit and cunning than those at Koblenz, i.e. the immigrés.

1:17:09Tom Holland:Yeah, their maxims were those of Catiline.

1:17:12Dominic Sandbrook:Exactly. So they've gone from being Cicero, they've become Catiline. So this does the trick. The Robespierre-Saint-Just combo, which often works, the convention fall into line. And so it is that two days later, on the 2nd of April, Danton and Desmoulins are led into the Palais de Justice for trial by the tribunal. And as with Hébert, the committee have muddied the waters by throwing in a load of random people, bankers and things. There's a Dutchman, a Belgian, there's two Moravians, there's a Dane, and there's a Spaniard. I mean, to be fair, everyone hates a foreign banker. They do, exactly. I thought you were going to say everyone hates a Dutchman, but...

1:17:48Dominic Sandbrook:No, I love a Dutchman. You love the Dutch. And Fabre and Chabot, they're also there. So the two blokes who'd gone to Robespierre to save themselves with their plot stories, they've failed to do so. And the point, of course, is throwing so many people in this to create a sense of conspiracy. And from the start, Danton's in great form. He says to his fellow prisoners, provided they let us speak at length, I am sure of routing my accusers. I don't think he thinks he's going to get away. He thinks he's just going to humiliate them and they will execute him, but he will go down fighting. and history will reward him.

1:18:21Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah, he'll leave a name to posterity. Completely. At this point, I think, I do have to say, Danton is very confused in my mind with Winston Churchill because I think this is exactly how Churchill would have behaved. You know, the sort of, the bumptiousness, the arrogance. Looking to history as his judge. Completely. Yeah. I mean, this is so Churchillian. They ask him at the trial, he's sort of checking into the prison or something, what's your name and address? And he says, I will soon be living nowhere. As for my name, you'll find it in the pantheon of history i mean that's amazing yeah but demula is even um is even less modest isn't he yes he is i mean demula to be fair who's often described as this sort of immature weakling they ask him for his age and he says i'm 33 the same age as the sonculot jesus christ when he stood before pontius pilate i mean you can see how basically if you were standing next to donton you'd be you'd raise your game wouldn't you you'd raise your repartee game And actually what follows, the trial.

1:19:20Dominic Sandbrook:The trial is one of the great set pieces in all French history. So it's held in the Palais de Justice. It's packed. The galleries are rammed with spectators. Massive anticipation. The prosecutor, I mean, you couldn't make this up. The prosecutor is Damienland's distant cousin. He's a guy called Fouquier Tainville. And he's always described as the villain of the piece, that one of Stalin's prosecutors. But actually, I think that's a bit unfair. Most historians say Fouquier is actually quite a conscientious lawyer and a stickler for details, methodical, serious and stuff. And he completely fails to keep order.

1:19:59Dominic Sandbrook:So people are shouting all the time from the galleries. Danton, who's a very big man, is just treating this as a stage. He's like a kind of bull tossing dogs left, right and center. Completely. And he's so loud. everyone says he's got this voice he's so loud that people are standing in the street outside outside the building and they can still hear him he says this on day one men like me cannot be bought on their brows are imprinted in ineffaceable characters the seal of liberty the genius of republicanism and I am accused of having crawled at the feet of vile despots and the court president tries to cut him off by tinkling this little bell and Danton says The voice of a man who has to defend both his life and honour must vanquish the sound of your little bell.

1:20:51Dominic Sandbrook:So that's day one. He's warming up. Day two is the turn of the defence. Foucault presented the indictment. At this point, Dantin is just on absolutely titanic form. He doesn't bother looking at the jury or the judges. He does all of his remarks to the spectators. And he says, my friends, you will judge me when you have heard me. My voice will be heard, not just by you. but by all of France and the world. And the world, exactly. He says, you know, where are my accusers? Where is Rob Spear? Where are the committees? The cowards who slander me, but do not dare to attack me to my face. And at the end of the day, he ends with these absolutely magnificent lines.

1:21:31Dominic Sandbrook:If ever I'm on trial for some driving offense or something, I'd like to think I'd go down like this. During the last two days, the court has got to know Danton. Tomorrow, he hopes to sleep in the bosom of glory. He has never asked for pardon. You will see him fly to the scaffold with his usual serenity and the calm of a clear conscience. Do you know, I almost want you to be arrested for a traffic offence, to say that I can hear you deliver that peroration. Do you know the reality would be so banal?

1:22:02Tom Holland:I'm so sorry.

1:22:04Dominic Sandbrook:I'm a bit tired. So, for the authorities, this is a terrible embarrassment. And it's actually getting worse because at the beginning of day three, Danton says, I would like to call a long list of witnesses in my defense. And he has a huge list of deputies from the convention and even members of the Committee of Public Safety. And the judges say, no, you can't call all these people. And the crowd start hooting and shouting at them. And Fouquet-Tainville, the prosecutor, who is described by one witness as affolé, which means panicked, he scribbles a note to the Committee of Public Safety. He says, look, this is totally out of control now.

1:22:39Dominic Sandbrook:If we don't change the rules, I cannot guarantee that we will get Danton's conviction. And Saint-Just rushes to the convention and he says, we have a national emergency. I have to say this is shameless from Saint-Just. We've all been talking about his, you know, their rigid principles and their belief in their own virtue and they're really sincere and all this. But this, I cannot be sincere. This is cynical. St. Jude says, Danton's allies in the prisons are planning a mass breakout, and they're going to murder members of the convention. And actually, Desmoulins' wife, Lucille, is in on it. She's one of the organizers.

1:23:17Dominic Sandbrook:That's not gallant, is it? It's not good from St. Jude. St. Jude goes on to say, look at the way Danton is behaving in the courtroom, shouting, dominating, all of this. Doesn't that prove he's guilty? What innocent man ever revolted against the law? I mean, a chilling sentiment. and basically defend yourself. It proves you're guilty. And the convention approves an emergency decree that the prosecutors can remove defendants from the courtroom if their behavior insults the justice of the nation. That same day, by the way, the Committee of General Security issues a warrant for Lucille Desmoulins' arrest as well, so Desmoulins' wife.

1:23:53Dominic Sandbrook:Now, she, in the interim, had written Robespierre a very moving letter reminding him of their old friendship and how important he'd been to their family. She said to him, do you think the people will respect you for destroying your friends? Do you think they will bless somebody who doesn't care about a widow's tears or an orphan's plight? And she even went to Robespierre's house, but Robespierre refused to see her.

1:24:18Tom Holland:I mean, the thing is that for Robespierre, this is the index of his virtue because he is genuinely distraught at the thought of them dying. Yeah. I'm such a kind person.

1:24:28Dominic Sandbrook:I'm killing my friends.

1:24:29Tom Holland:Well, but, you know, who would you betray, your friends or your country? He's betraying his friends. Yeah, exactly.

1:24:36Dominic Sandbrook:So in the meantime, Fouquet-Tainville now has what he needs. The next morning, the 5th of April, Danton and Coe are removed from the court. They're dragged out. And as they're dragged out, Danton shouts furiously. He says, we're going to be judged without being heard. And then he says very mockingly, you know, go on, take us to the scaffold. Fouquet says to the jury, I believe you've heard all you need to. Can you make your decision? The sentence is, of course, death. As they're waiting in the Luxembourg prison, Danton seems rueful. He's actually quite wry. He says, funny thing is none of those people know anything about government.

1:25:12Dominic Sandbrook:If I left my balls to Robespierre and my legs to Couton, the Committee of Public Safety might last a bit longer. I think that's a really good line. Desmond, however, is crushed at the thought of parting from his wife, Lucille. He doesn't know at this point that she has been arrested. and he writes to this last letter very affecting one of the most well-known letters in french history my lucille my darling despite my torment i believe there is a god one day i will see you again adieu lulu adieu my life my soul my goddess on earth i feel the shores of life receding before me i see you again lucille i see my arms around you my tied hands embrace you my severed head rests its eyes on you.

1:25:56Dominic Sandbrook:But she never actually gets to read it because she has now been locked up as well. So late that afternoon, they are taken to the guillotine. Dusk is falling. You described the scene, the eyewitness account. Desmoulins, just before he was executed, was told that his wife had been arrested and he was devastated. He fought with the executioners on the scaffold until the shirt had almost been ripped from his body and they have to force him into the guillotine. and then Danton goes last he cuts this incredibly defiant figure that amazing last line don't forget to show my head to the people it'll be worth it you know a very fitting epitaph and finally Lucille Desmoulins she was guillotined a week later and she wrote a very affecting last letter to her mother before she died good night dear maman a tear falls from my eyes it is for you I am going to sleep in the tranquility of innocence.

1:26:53Dominic Sandbrook:So that's that. Danton's dead, and Robespierre and the committees have won. And on the face of it, Robespierre now appeals unassailable. And he and his allies have crushed their critics, and they've sent a clear message that basically any challenge will not be tolerated. However, inside the committees, it's clear there is now a mood of deep suspicion. So the army guy, Carnot, later said that spring, so let's say March, April, we had to move our meetings to a different room so that people would not be able to observe the storms that agitated us. And of course, in the convention, if you're one of the deputies and you've just seen Hébert on, as it were, the left go to the guillotine, and you've seen Danton on the more moderate wing go to the guillotine you know if they if they can both go anyone can who's to say you're safe and actually even at this point with Robespierre apparently at his peak there are signs that this cannot last and people who think this can't last and there's a story that when Danton was on his way to the guillotine in the tumbre he looked up and as they went past robsbier's house and he said almost to himself you will soon be following us they will tear your house down and they will sow the ground with salt and as we will see he was not wrong thank you

1:28:18Tom Holland:dominic um the stage is now set for the climax of this series the dramatic final weeks of the reign of terror so next week two episodes to finish this series um first of all the apotheosis of robespierre as he climbs yet another papier-mâché mountain to celebrate the festival of the supreme being a very i mean kind of one of the most bizarre episodes in the whole of the french revolution and then the last episode it's the final showdown as the convention turns on a robespierre air and the revolution destroys its favorite son and club members of course you can go ahead hear those episodes right away and if you are not a member of the club and you'd like to join them then sign up at the rest is history.com and on wednesday very excitingly club members will get a very special bonus a discussion about the french revolution with one of its best known chroniclers the great historian Simon Sharma Au revoir Au revoir

1:29:43Tom Holland:We are getting a statement from number 10 on that flight

1:29:48Dominic Sandbrook:with 350 passengers on board The Great Game strategic struggle between Britain and Russia.

1:30:00Tom Holland:We assess, uh, Prime Minister. With high confidence, it was Russian.

1:30:06Dominic Sandbrook:Holding the Russians accountable is World War III.

1:30:09Tom Holland:They took down a British passenger jet containing 350 people. Man in the Kremlin is playing, Alex. You've got to ask yourself, you want to play or not?

1:30:18Dominic Sandbrook:You're the Prime Minister. You've done nothing! We would need to understand the policy context. All the relevant context will be structured as a framework today. And disseminated into an operation order. Or frago. Or a frago that says to kill the president of Russia. Yes. New from Goalhanger. Who is going to be able to pull this off? You're my soldier, are you?

1:30:49Tom Holland:Sergeant Tom McDuff. Duffy!

1:30:51Dominic Sandbrook:An audio drama journey like no other. Men like Duffy, they are our most valuable weapons. Devised as a technically rigorous geopolitical action thriller. Where Britain plays its strongest hand against its strongest foe. Bear Hunt. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.

1:31:22Dominic Sandbrook:is history anything more than the story of heroes and villains of course it is but not in our brand new the rest is history book a history of the world in 51 heroes and villains now in this book we have picked out some of our very favorite characters from the last few years of the rest is history so we've got Genghis Khan we have Cyrus the Great we have Marie Antoinette and obviously we have Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones now some of these people are friends of the show some of them are unwanted acquaintances some of them are downright foes of the show but we had one rule they had to be interesting and there had to be interesting stories about them so now is your chance to pick a side to polish your armor to don your very best First World War General's moustache and to decide whether you are on the side of the heroes or the villains.

1:32:21Dominic Sandbrook:A History of the World in 51 Heroes and Villains is available now. It makes a wonderful Christmas present. I cannot recommend it to you more highly. If you don't buy a copy, you will probably regret it till the day you die. Goodbye.