The Fall of the Incas: Massacre in the Andes (Part 2)

13:42Atahualpa:And Pizarro's brother, Hernando, who fought in Italy. So there's a couple of people with military experience. And a lot of these people will have seen action in the Caribbean. And that involved basically killing defenseless indigenous people, natives. That's the action that they're used to. They're not trained professional soldiers by any means. And why are they here? They are here really for money. Some of them are there for adventure. Some of them may be there for crusading zeal. The Dominicans, for example, there are five or six Dominicans who are with them. Yes, of course. Dr. Valverde among them.

14:17Atahualpa:Exactly. But there's a transactional element. When they've got their gold, they either settle down with a farm in Peru, or a lot of them will go back to Spain. That's the plan. So anyway, they set off 24th of September. It's a grueling, grueling trudge. So as one account puts it, there was much sun, little shade, much sand, and no water. Because this part of Peru is a kind of coastal desert plain. So they're making good time, about 14 miles a day. They're absolutely fascinated by what they see. I mean, they write these fantastic accounts, the temples, the llamas, the very well-ordered roads and bridges, the storehouses of food by the roadside.

14:55Atahualpa:I mean, that's a very good sign as far as they're concerned. Because that means there is a lot of order and civilization if there are sort of well-maintained storehouses. Do they note with surprise the lack of wheels? I think it becomes obvious why there's no wheels, because there are no horses. And whenever they go, people shy away from the horses and are absolutely astonished and horrified. A horse is a very frightening thing, I think, if you've never seen a horse. And we know throughout the Americas, when the Spanish turned up with horses, people were absolutely stupefied and amazed and frightened.

15:28Atahualpa:So they're beginning to attract attention. At one point, a messenger hails them on the road, and he says, I have been sent by Huascar, the defeated brother, by his faction, at least. He has heard that you have come to bring justice to Peru, and he wants to ask for your protection. And Pizarro gives him a kind of noncommittal answer. He says, where there's injustice, we'll put it right. But nothing more than that. There's also a very weird incident quite early on, when the Spanish notice a kind of young man hanging around their camp and lurking generally. And he's dressed as a sort of street peddler.

16:04Atahualpa:And he has this huge shawl that he wears over his head and shoulders to protect him from the sun. And he's always trying to get him to buy his trinkets. And they call him Apu. Apu is very interested in their horses and their swords. And actually, it turns out that Apu is a spy sent by Atahualpa. So not a very good one. Not a terribly good one, no. Now, I mentioned Atahualpa. What's he up to? The emperor. Or at least the would-be emperor. He's been fighting his brother. He has made camp about 300 miles away in the mountains near the town of Cayamaca. His priority is not the Spanish. It is the civil war.

16:40Atahualpa:So he's waiting for news from the south, where his commander, who has the excellent name of Qiskis, is leading the final assault on Cusco. So when he gets news that a load of blokes with beards have turned up on the coast, they've been looting villages, they've been behaving poorly in storehouses, helping themselves to the food. They'd be very rude to some of the locals. He's perturbed, you know, what's all this? But he's not especially frightened. Apu reports back and says the Spanish are in absolute shambles, actually.

17:12Tom Holland:Yeah. He says they're kind of villains, aren't they?

17:14Atahualpa:Kind of indigents and robbers. Yeah, exactly. He says they're just an absolute bunch of rogues. Apu actually says, I think we should let them come, kill them all, except for three, because three of them are worth something. They've got a blacksmith who makes swords, amazing swords. We should keep him. We should keep the guy who's the horse, Tamer, because he can control these incredible beasts. And quite sweetly, he says we should keep the barber because he makes men look young again. Nice. By shaving them? By shaving them, presumably. So there are people in Peru who do have beards? I guess so.

17:49Atahualpa:I don't know. I was thinking about this. Surely Andeans are clean shaven, surely. Relatively clean shaven. I don't know.

17:54Tom Holland:But I mean, because the whole stuff about bearded men coming. Yeah, exactly. It's important, isn't it? I suppose a Spanish beard is larger and bulkier than an Andean beard. An Andean beard? You never really would see an Andean beard particularly, would you? It's always about beards, isn't it, in history?

18:08Atahualpa:Anyway, Atowalp is intrigued by all this, and he sends one of his senior officers called Sikinchara to investigate. Confusingly, some chronicles say Sikinchara is the same person as Apu, and some chronicles say he isn't. So listeners can decide for themselves. It's the rich unknowability of history, isn't it? Of the past. Sikin Chara, whether he's Apu or not, he arrives at this provincial capital called Cachas on the 10th of October, and he finds that Hernando de Soto, the dashing horseman, has already arrived with a scouting party. And who have we here? Now, unfortunately, Soto is behaving very poorly.

18:46Atahualpa:So Cachas, this place, has a college attached to its sun temple. And the college houses 500 ayayas, which are young women from noble families who've been chosen for their bloodline or their beauty. And basically, they will spend four years weaving cloth and brewing beer for the emperor. They're sort of virgins of the temple, I suppose. A festal virgin equivalence. Exactly. Soto and his men have dragged them out into the square and are busy divvying them up among themselves. Siquin Chara is appalled when he sees this, but obviously he can't really do anything about it because he can't match the Spanish muscle.

19:26Atahualpa:He introduces himself to Soto. Soto says, great, when we're finished with these women, I'll take you back to Pizarro, which he does. They go back to Pizarro's camp. Siquin Chara is very cool, actually, and we're told he entered as casually as if he'd been brought up all his life among Spaniards. This is because, of course, he's on home territory and he's an important person. He's used to being treated with respect. This leads me to believe, by the way, that he's not Apu. Because if you'd been hanging around in a shawl pretending to sell trinkets, and then you return, you would look shamefaced, I think.

19:55Tom Holland:But I mean, not to do him down. I mean, he's obviously a very, very cool customer. You have to have incredible courage to turn up and confront these terrible men.

20:03Dominic Sandbrook:He's brought them some nice gifts, though. He's brought them two pots that are shaped as forts, weirdly,

20:09Atahualpa:and some skinned ducks. And the Spanish take the gifts. And it's amusing, actually. The Spanish are convinced they must have some secret meaning or overthinking. So they're kind of staring at the pot. They're massively overthinking it. They're like, do the pots mean there are a lot of castles? And what about the ducks? They will skin us alive. That's what the Spanish say. They think that they're going to be skinned alive like the ducks. Actually, I think he's just giving them something to eat. Anyway, Sikinchara spends two days in the camp. He makes a note of everything. And finally, he says to Pizarro, listen, The emperor would like you to continue to Kayamaka, and he will greet you personally.

20:46Atahualpa:And Pizarro's like, brilliant, this is what he wants. So he sends Sikanchara back. He says, here's a lovely gift for you and for the emperor. A nice linen shirt. We've got two glass goblets from Venice, and some scissors, and some combs, and a mirror. So back they go with the gifts. Now, important to say at this point, some people may be listening to this and thinking, do the Incas believe that the Spaniards are gods? which is a thing you often hear as you do about the conquest of Mexico. There was absolutely no evidence for this whatsoever.

21:18Tom Holland:The Incas definitely didn't think they were gods. But they thought they might be, I mean, some Incas seem to have thought they might be messengers of the gods. So the Viracocha, the creator god, they call them, these are Viracochas. Yeah, Viracocha's messengers or sons of Viracocha, exactly. And there is that kind of Quetzalcoatl stuff that you have in Mexico with the idea of bearded men coming from the sea and that these are Viracochas?

21:41Atahualpa:I'm not sure about that, Tom. I don't agree with that. I think for a couple of reasons. First of all, I think people end up, even in the 16th century, conflating the two conquests and taking details from one and putting them in the other as the stories are repeated and written down by other chroniclers. Basically, it's that classic thing that historians do. The myths are repeated in secondary histories and then people stop questioning them. But the thing about are they the sons of Viracocha or the messengers of Viracocha or whatever, This is almost certainly either a literary formula or it's a courtesy.

22:15Atahualpa:I don't think people think they are literally sent by the gods because the way the Incas behave towards them is exactly as they would behave if they thought there were other human beings like themselves.

22:25Tom Holland:Yeah, accepted. But just to kind of slightly push on this, the Incas are living among chaos. Their empire is being swept by plague. There is this terrible civil war. and now these peculiar people with mad animals have turned up.

22:41Atahualpa:Yeah.

22:42Tom Holland:Is there a sense of the kind of the Incan cosmology of different ages of cycles of time and might this be presaging a new cycle of time, a kind of apocalyptic sense? I think there is.

22:55Atahualpa:I mean, there's definitely apocalyptic there. There's definitely a strain. There were stories of the end of the world and things like that. But you don't get a massive sense that people think this is the end of days. these people are the heralds of some terrible doom, all of this kind of thing. I think actually most people are making much more pragmatic political considerations. I mean, you can do both, can't you? Rather than apocalyptic or eschatological ones. We don't have really that much evidence of people thinking in apocalyptic terms about the coming of the Spaniards. But we do have evidence about them making kind of Machiavellian calculations about what they can do with this new variable of 168 people, with the horses in particular.

23:34Atahualpa:I think that's what Atahualpa is doing, by the way. I think Atahualpa is sitting there in Chiarmarka. He's thinking about the Civil War. All the evidence, actually, for the next year or so is that that's pretty much all Atahualpa is thinking about, is the Civil War. I think he thinks these will be excellent mercenaries.

23:51Tom Holland:Or if he can kill them, get their horses, get the guy who can make the swords for him. Yes, of course. You know, it's literally a cutting edge, isn't it?

23:59Atahualpa:Exactly. I think their military technology really interests him. and he thinks, brilliant, I can use this to finish off Huascar's faction, complete my victory in the civil war. There's no reason for him to think this is an existential threat. The Spaniards, of course, know what happened in Mexico to Montezuma. He doesn't know. He's never heard of the Spaniards before. I mean, even at this stage, they are maybe thinking a decapitation strategy. You capture the top man, maybe some of his family, some of the elite, and then you leave the empire leaderless. It worked for Hernan Cortes. It worked for your cousin, Francisco.

24:35Atahualpa:Maybe it'll work for you.

24:36Tom Holland:I guess that kind of capturing leading people is in the DNA of the Spaniards. I mean, it's in the DNA of all Christians. I mean, all that 100 years war stuff. Capturing people and using that to get money is what European soldiers do.

24:53Atahualpa:Isn't it 1527? They invaded the Rome, sacked Rome, took the Pope prisoner. Thereby causing the English Reformation. Exactly. So the Spanish are coming closer and closer, just as old Martin describes in that reading from the play. They turn inland from the Pacific and they go up into the Andes. They go up through this valley, through the cotton fields, into the canyons. They're now about 13 ,000 feet above sea level. So they're breathless, they're cold. It's absolutely freezing. There's no shelter. They're very, very anxious because they can see people watching them the whole time from kind of watchtowers.

25:28Dominic Sandbrook:I cannot imagine doing it. It's crazy.

25:30Tom Holland:It just seems insane behaviour.

25:32Atahualpa:Hernando Pizarro said, you know, they could have finished us off at any time. We couldn't use the horses on the mountain roads. Off the roads, we could take neither horses nor foot soldiers. We were completely vulnerable snaking along these kind of mountain passes. And the Incubs are watching us, but they're not acting. And actually, we know from what we get the sense from later chronicles and things, that some of Atahualpa's counsellors said, why are you letting these people come? Why not just strike now and kill them all? And Atahualpa says to them, it is folly to be so concerned about 170 men.

26:10Atahualpa:Let's find out who they are. What have we got to lose? Let them keep coming. He really wants to see the horses. He wants to see these guys who have strange weapons that make an explosion and everyone runs away, arquebuses and stuff. And it's a bit different from Montezuma. Montezuma was in his capital, in the palace. Attawelper is with his army. He's in a military camp with 80 ,000 men. Why would he be frightened about fewer than 200 men? He's just won a very bloody civil war.

26:40Tom Holland:Of course.

26:40Atahualpa:I mean, no one can be in any doubt that he's ready to crush his enemies if he has to. Right, exactly. On the 9th of November, they get another messenger from Attawelper. The messenger brings them 10 llamas as a gift. And he says, the emperor is at the hot springs near Kayamarka, outside Kayamarka. They're five days march away. He's looking forward to seeing you. They make slow progress. And five days later, they reach the last village before the valley of Kayamarka, which is called Zavana. They've now been on the road for 52 days, six months in total since they left the coast because they've dallied at first.

27:12Atahualpa:Another messenger brings them food from Atahualpa, says he can't wait, looking forward to seeing you. And Pizarro says to his men, right, get ready for battle now. We're pretty close. So that's the 14th. The next day is the 15th. The path rises for the last time in the mountains, and they reach the highest point at around midday. And they look down, and they see the valley of Kayamaka. It's only a few miles wide. It's very fertile, fields of cotton plantations. They can see the stone buildings of the town glinting in the sunlight. And then beyond that, four miles behind the town, they can see this, what looks like a sea of white shapes.

27:48Atahualpa:And these are the tents of Attawalpa's army, tens of thousands strong. So to quote one of the conquistadors, so many tents were visible that we were filled with great apprehension. We never thought that Indians, his terminology in lock mine, could maintain such a proud estate, nor have so many tents in such good order. It filled all of us Spaniards with fear and confusion, but it was not appropriate to show any fear, far less to turn back. And so Pizarro says, come on then, let's do this. And they spur their horses and they begin to descend the path towards the town of Cayamaca. God. So they approach the wall of Cayamaca, they go through the gate.

28:30Atahualpa:Cayamaca today is a very kind of handsome Spanish colonial town. At the time, it was an Inca town of about 2 ,000 people. And when they get there, there's hardly anybody there. The streets are deserted, quiet. There are no people to be seen. One Spanish memoirist said later, all we could hear was the ghostly keening of women, singing of the death that awaits the strangers who have provoked the wrath of the great Inca. I mean, that's pretty terrifying. So they press on, they go past a sun temple, they go past another of these convents, and they emerge into this main square of Kiamakka. Now, very important for people to get this into their heads.

29:08Atahualpa:This square is surrounded on three sides by these kind of long, low stone buildings, which were basically, they're 200 yards long and each of these buildings had about 20 doors in it. And basically what they were, they were called Kalankas and they were used as dormitories for people who came through the town to work in the kind of labor gangs or in the army or even pilgrims arriving for a religious festival or something like that. They're there surrounded by these long, low buildings in the middle of this square. And there's no one else there. And it starts to rain. And they say, well, let's go into these buildings.

29:45Atahualpa:And they go and take shelter in the barracks.

29:46Tom Holland:Dominic, also, can I just ask, in the middle of this square, there's a kind of a ceremonial platform, isn't there? So that's also going to play a part.

29:55Atahualpa:Exactly. So Pizarro and his captains gather around. They have a little council of war. and they're all very nervous.

30:03Dominic Sandbrook:You know, there's no one here. What's going on? I mean, how could you not be nervous? Of course. I'm not knocking them.

30:09Atahualpa:It sounds like you're judging them. I wouldn't be nervous. From the heart of the Cotswolds. Yeah. He sends his lieutenant, Hernando de Soto. He says, I want you to go over to Attawabra. Go over to his camp, wherever he is. He's at these hot springs or whatever they are. Take 15 of your best horsemen. Take one of the interpreters with you. the Spanish can't agree whether it's Felipio or Martinio. I don't know they know the difference. Find out what he wants, what his plan is, where does he want us to stay, all of this. Soto goes off with the cavalry, 15 men, and Francisco goes for a walk with his brother Hernando.

30:45Atahualpa:And Hernando goes with him and says, I think we made a mistake, actually. You've just sent our best horsemen off to Attawelper. But there's only 15 of them. And if the Incas turn on them, you know, it's curtains for them. And Francisco says, yeah, you're right, actually. You go after them. Take 20 more men and go after them. And Hernando does. And that's very lucky for us and for everyone listening to this podcast, because among the men that Hernando takes are people who wrote books about it afterwards. So there's a guy called Miguel de Estete, and there's a guy called Diego de Trujillo, and they both wrote long eyewitness accounts of the meeting, which of course, in traditional Spanish conquistador fashion, disagree with each other on the details.

31:25Atahualpa:But anyway, so Hernando is following Soto along the stone road, which goes out for four miles from the town to a place called Pultamarca. Today, it's called Banyos del Inca, the baths of the Inca, which tells you what it was like, because it's basically a spring. It's a spa. Atahualpa is taking the waters there. And to get there, they have to go pass through Atahualpa's army to all the tents. And Estete in his account says, you know, we were absolutely terrified, advancing through these ranks and ranks of soldiers who are just staring at us in silence. But having to kind of convey a sense of cool and fortitude.

32:04Atahualpa:Of course. Imagine, imagine. It's like the bit in Apocalypse Now when they arrive at Marlon Brando's camp and all the tribesmen just sort of staring at them silently. It's like that. And finally, they get through the camp and there's Atahualpa's sort of palace building, his country house or whatever it is. There's a stone building with two towers and there's about 400 warriors guarding it. And all they can hear is the water bubbling in the pipes and pools of the hot springs, just this deathly silence. And their interpreter says, we'd like to see the emperor. And Atahualpa doesn't come out. And Hernando Pizarro, who's very hot-tempered, starts shouting,

32:41Dominic Sandbrook:tell that dog to come out. Oh, it's lucky they didn't speak Spanish.

32:45Atahualpa:Yeah. And eventually, a nobleman appears, and it's their old mate, Sikinchara. And there's some form of interaction, very garbled, actually. And eventually, the moment comes where they will see the emperor. Though what's unclear from the accounts is if they go in or Atahualpa comes out. I think they go in, actually. Apu isn't around.

33:06Dominic Sandbrook:Well, Apu may be Sikinchara. This is the confusing thing. So why are all the accounts so garbled? this cuts to the confusion of the story. The Spaniards themselves are very confused because they don't really know what's going on. They don't speak a word of Quechua. They're in this new land.

33:22Atahualpa:They might as well be on an alien planet. Weird people, weird customs, all this. And their interpreters are useless. So whoever is there, either Felipio or Martinio, they stumble and stutter. They must be frightened themselves. They're stumbling and stuttering over their words. And actually, when they do talk to Ataualpa,

33:39Dominic Sandbrook:Ataualpa at one point says of the interpreter, What does this fellow mean, stammering from one word to another and from one mistake to the next, as if he were dumb? How do we know he said that? Because the interpreter must have translated.

33:51Tom Holland:How can we trust the interpreter if they're useless?

33:53Dominic Sandbrook:Well, I think it's highly unlikely you'd make that up about yourself. The emperor is saying that I'm a useless translator. You're not going to make that up, are you?

34:03Atahualpa:But anyway, throughout this story runs this thread of misunderstanding, possibly deliberate misinformation. information in the aztec story listeners will recall that malinche may well have been manipulating the whole thing and we don't we just don't know about these interpreters these boys whether they were making stuff up or whatever anyway this is now the moment when they first lay eyes on the emperor to quote one conquistador he was seated on a small stool very low on the ground as the turks and moors are accustomed to sit with all the majesty in the world surrounded by all his women and with many chiefs near him.

34:37Atahualpa:And they describe him probably in his early 30s. He's got long black hair. He wears his hair long because he's been injured in the Civil War in the ear and he's covering that up. Oh, that's bad if you're a big ear, isn't it?

34:49Dominic Sandbrook:Yes, I guess so, exactly. So that's probably why he grows his hair. He has a brightly colored cloak.

34:56Atahualpa:He's got this thing on his brow, which is the crown, the circlet of red wool threaded with gold and this kind of red tassel that hangs above his eyes. And this crown is called the mascapecha, which is the crown of the Sapa Inca. But he's sitting on the stool and he doesn't move. He doesn't even look at them. And they advance closer. Strangely, they're still on horseback. I don't quite know how this works, whether he's come out or they've gone in, but they're still on their horses because we are told Soto's horse was so close to Atahuelpa that the breath from its nostrils stirred the tassel. But still, Atahualpa doesn't show a flicker of emotion.

35:35Atahualpa:Well, that speaks very well of his courage, doesn't it? Very well, because they're terrified of the horses. Soto takes a gold ring off his finger and he hands it to Atahualpa. And he says, with the translator speaking, he says, I give you this as a token of peace and friendship. Atahualpa puts out his hand, he takes the ring, but he still won't meet Soto's eye and he doesn't show a flicker of emotion. And Soto then gives a prepared speech. He says, I come on behalf of a mighty king, King Charles. He has appointed Francisco Pizarro as governor of these lands. And Pizarro would be absolutely thrilled if you would come and see him in the town.

36:10Atahualpa:Atualpa says nothing, and he still doesn't raise his eyes. And one of his noblemen speaks up through the interpreter and says, the Sapa Inca is not going to be going anywhere. This is the last day of his ritual fast in celebration of his victory in the war, and he will not be accompanying you. and Hernando Pizarro at this point completely loses patience and he says well you know for

36:35Dominic Sandbrook:god's sake man when you look at us or whatever he shouts at Atahualpa and now for the first time

36:42Atahualpa:Atahualpa raises his eyes to meet them his eyes are blazing with fury they are implacable and they are if they could be cold and blazing they're both blazing and cold and his eyes meet theirs. And now, at last, he speaks. Are you leaving us on that cliffhanger?

37:04Tom Holland:On that.

37:04Atahualpa:Yeah. Oh my God.

37:06Tom Holland:Unbearable tension. Well, we'd better go and have a break and listen to some adverts or something. Unless, of course, you're a member of the Rest of History Club. Anyway, we will be back to find out what Atahualpa has to say to the Spaniards.

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38:33Atahualpa:Hello everybody and welcome to The Book Club, a new podcast from Goalhanger, hosted by me,

38:39Francisco Pizarro:Dominic Sandbrook and me Tabitha Syrod as some of you may know I've been Dominic's producer on The Rest is History and we even did a mini-series last year about all things books and since we

38:50Dominic Sandbrook:enjoyed that so much we have decided to roll it out as its own show so it'll be coming out every Tuesday we'll be doing a different book each time and digging into all the stories behind them and

39:01Francisco Pizarro:we are going to be talking about the historical contexts behind some of the greatest and most famous books of all time. We're going to be digging into the remarkable people behind them, the unexpected stories behind the stories, and also unravelling the plot of each book a bit and delving into the depths of the story.

39:19Dominic Sandbrook:Now, you don't have to have read the books to listen to the show, but we hope that by the end of each episode, you will be able to pretend to people that you've read them. That is the key thing. And either way, whether you read them or not, we hope that you'll learn lots of fascinating facts, you'll do lots of great stories, and maybe Tabby the odd laugh.

39:36Francisco Pizarro:We will be looking at thrilling gothic bodice rippers like Wuthering Heights and Frankenstein as well as iconic stories like The Great Gatsby or Little Women and then also some more modern stuff. So Game of Thrones, Normal People, The Hunger Games, Hamnet all manner of exciting stories.

39:55Dominic Sandbrook:So please join us on our journey into all things books wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for The Book Club every Tuesday and hopefully we will see you there.

40:19Dominic Sandbrook:This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money. Tom, we often talk about how to organise our finances. I'm very conscious that I'm paying for a lot of mad subscriptions and there's one thing that we've talked about often on the show, it's the thing that we probably hate more than any other and it's a hidden fee. I would love to get my finances under control. There are all these things piling up on our bank statements and I think I need to fix this problem. I need to sort this out and to stop this. I mean, my finances are so chaotic that I need this app. So I'll tell you what it is. It's called Rocket Money.

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41:39Hello, everyone.

41:40Tom Holland:Welcome back to The Rest is History. It is the 15th of November, 1532. We are outside the town of Kamaka, and Anando de Soto and Anando Pizarro are face to face with the emperor of the Incas, the redoubtable. terrifying Atahualpa with his, what was it, Dominic? His blazing and ice-cold eyes. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's been a very tense standoff. And now Atahualpa has raised those blazing and ice-cold eyes to meet the eyes of the Spaniards. He's about to speak. And Dominic, what does he say?

42:16Atahualpa:Nothing good. He says, I've heard complaints about you from my men in the north. My captain in San Miguel sent to tell me that you've treated the chiefs badly and threw them into chains. And he sent me an iron collar. He says that he killed three Christians and one horse. And Hernando Pizarro now does all the talking. And he is a very undiplomatic man.

42:38Dominic Sandbrook:He says, your men in San Miguel were women. They were no better than women. One horse was enough to conquer the whole land.

42:45Atahualpa:And when you see us fight, you will know what kind of men we are. And Atalba then says, and this goes back to something you were saying in the first half, Tom. He says, I could have stopped you coming, but I chose not to. I know you are the sons of Viracocha. You are messengers from our god-king, Pachacuti. Your coming was foretold by my father, Juana Capac, so I gave orders that nobody was to stop or harm you.

43:09Tom Holland:But you think this is fabricated by a Spaniard who is muddling it up with what Moctezuma had said to Cortez, do you? Or do you think this is authentically what he might have said?

43:20Atahualpa:I think there are multiple explanations of this. So one of them is he genuinely thinks they're messengers from the god king, Pachaguti. I think this is extremely unlikely. Nothing that Atahualpa does, if he genuinely thought that, would he not have met their eyes earlier? Would he not be a bit more polite? I think, of course, he would have behaved differently if he genuinely thought that. So I think there are two possibilities. One is that this is a literary flourish and that this has now become the formula. That when you write a chronicle of Spanish conquest of somewhere in the Americas, the king greets you with these kinds of words and this is what the read is like.

43:54Atahualpa:Number two is he does say this. Actually, I think number two is probably right. He probably does say something a bit like this and it's a courtesy.

44:02Tom Holland:I would have said so too because, I mean, who or what is Viracocha to the Spaniards?

44:07Atahualpa:Yeah.

44:07Tom Holland:I mean, they don't care.

44:08Atahualpa:It might be embellished or whatever. I think it's a little bit like, to borrow what the great historian Matthew Restall said about when this happened in Mexico. He said, it's a little bit like, it's an exaggerated version of when someone comes to your house and you say, oh, do what you like, you know, fete comche vu, you know, relax and enjoy. You don't really mean it. You don't mean do whatever you like. You say, you know, flowery things to make people feel welcome. And this is what Attawepa is doing. Anyway, when he does this, Hernando moderates his tone. And he says, my brother, the governor, they always call Francisco Pizarro the governor.

44:44Atahualpa:Governor. Yeah, not the governor loves you dearly. If you have any enemies, we will send horsemen to deal with them for you. With 10 horsemen, we could defeat all your enemies. Your own men will only be needed to mop up the people who run away. And Hernando says this to Atahualpa and Atahualpa just gives this cold smile. And Ando himself, who wrote a memoir of it, recalls he smiled as someone who did not think much of us. Of course, Atahualpa may be very excited by this deep down because he may be thinking, yeah, these horses were a big deal.

45:17Dominic Sandbrook:And I could really finish off my brother's faction with these horses. And of course, he doesn't need the Spaniards to ride them in the lore. Exactly. He says, Atahualpa now says, will you dine with me? And they say, no, we have to go back. He says, will you like drinks? He gets women to bring them jugs of this beer, this chicha. And then the sun is setting and Atualpa says, would you like to stay the night? And Hernando says, no, we'd like to go back to our friends in the town in Kayamarca. And Atualpa says, okay, you can stay in these barracks around the town square. Brilliant. And then he says, I'll see you tomorrow.

45:50Dominic Sandbrook:Tomorrow I'll come into Kayamarca to meet your leader. But there's one more moment before they leave. Atualpa clearly fascinated by the horses. so and then the de soto dressage champion of spain gives him a little riding demonstration he wheels around on this horse we're told that atahuelpa was amazed and amazed at seeing the agility with which it wheeled but the common people showed even greater admiration there was much whispering so there's clearly a little crowd one squadron of troops drew back when they saw the horse coming towards them and there's actually a dark side to this story so when the spanish have gone at a welper says those soldiers who um drew back round them all up please and execute them because they showed fear and we can't show fear at the strangers animals and some sources say he said um find their wives and children and kill them too oh i want to make sure that nobody does this again and that uh you know we don't show the slightest flicker of fear when we see the Spaniards' horses.

46:53Dominic Sandbrook:So end the bloodline of these cowards. Exactly, exactly. You said that with real relish, Tom. I could see you saying that, actually. If one of our producers showed fear of a horse, I think I'd have been a good Inca. So night falls in Cayamaca, but the Spanish can't sleep. So Pizarro has a young cousin called Pedro who acted as his page. And Pedro described a council of war in Pizarro's quarters. we took many views and opinions among ourselves about what should be done all were full of fear for we were so few and so deep in the land where we could not be reinforced of course let's remind ourselves there are 168 of them they are thousands of miles from help there are several million people between them and the coast and they are basically up against 80 000 incas camped in the tents just outside the town so quite a tight corner it's yeah the odds or against them, I think it's reasonable to say.

47:50Dominic Sandbrook:And Pizarro encourages his men, says, come on, we've got this, we can do this. And one of the chronicles says, that night he went around and he said, every man a knight, every man is a knight. It's very like the Kingdom of Heaven, if you've seen that film, the Orlando Bloom Crusades film, where at the end he knights everybody in the defense of this city. So even though he's saying all this, they must be thinking, Jesus, this is going to be tough. So the question is, what will they do when morning comes, when Attawelper turns up? Now, some Spanish chroniclers said later, Pizarro is hoping that Atahualpa will submit, will agree to accept Charles V as this overlord and Jesus as the master of all.

48:32Dominic Sandbrook:I think this is highly unlikely that Pizarro thought that would actually happen. I mean, he'd be mad if he thought that would happen. I think he was always going to use some form of violence. He knew what his cousin Cortez had done in Mexico. and as Matthew Restle says in his excellent books about the Spanish conquest of the Americas, standard practice was theatrical terror. You strike first, you use surprise, you use your military technology, which is your horses, your swords, and so on. And your guns. Yeah, and your guns. And you hope that that will prevail. You can frighten people into acquiescing.

49:07Dominic Sandbrook:And so this is what Pizarro says to his men. He says, look, we're going to take advantage of the geography. When Asoelpa and his men arrive, we'll allow them to filter into the main square. Whereas you rightly said, Tom, there's a platform in the middle, and Asoelpa will probably go up onto the platform or something like that. We'll see. Now, meanwhile, we will be in the barracks, which are on three sides of the square. Everyone will wait for my signal to burst out of the doorways. On two sides, we'll have most of the horses under Soto and my brother Hernando and the other big cheeses. And they can deal with the Inca troops.

49:41Dominic Sandbrook:On the third side, I'll be there with a smaller group of people, and our job is to snatch Atahualpa. And as for the rest of the men, and we're not talking about huge numbers, you hide in the alleys around the square. When the fighting starts, try to seal off the square, and that will mean that the Incas can't escape, and they'll be at the mercy of our cavalry. And as for the signal, when Atahualpa has taken his place in the center of the square, Pedro de Candia, the guy from Crete, the artilleryman, he can fire his guns, blow a load of trumpets. And when you hear that, it's game on, and we'll do this.

50:15Tom Holland:And Pedro de Candia is on this raised platform, is he? Yes, he is. He's on the platform. So kind of relatively speaking, commanding heights.

50:23Dominic Sandbrook:Exactly right. Now, Miguel de Estete, who's one of the memoirists, described the mood after the meeting broke up and darkness drew him. Few slept and we kept watching the square from which the campfires of the Indian army could be seen. It was a terrible sight. Most of them were on a hillside and close to one another. It looked like a brilliantly star-studded sky. So they're kind of looking out at these campfires, these tents, and they're absolutely, the Spanish, you know, they're absolutely terrified. So the hours pass, they don't get much sleep. Dawn breaks, the 16th of November, 1532. Atahualpa's ritual fast is over.

51:02Dominic Sandbrook:He and his closest friends have been drinking to mark the end of the fast. He's in no hurry to go anywhere, actually. Probably got a bit of a hangover. So all morning, the Spanish wait. The Dominicans have held mass. Everything is ready. the tension, you know, mounting all the time. A messenger arrives mid-morning from Atahualpa's camp, and he says, Atahualpa's still coming. He's coming with his men, and his men will be armed. Pizarro says, fine, you can come however he likes. I will welcome him as a friend and a brother. That's nice. Another hour goes by, no one comes. Then another messenger arrives, and he says, actually, they've changed their mind.

51:44Dominic Sandbrook:They're going to leave their weapons behind. And why is that, do you think? I genuinely don't know. I think it never really occurs to Atahualpa that he'd need the weapons.

51:55Atahualpa:He's got so many men.

51:56Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah, I suppose. He's got so many men. I mean, the Spanish would be mad to attack him. Just thinks highly, 168 men against 80 ,000. I mean, you'd never do that. Still, they don't come though. At midday, there's movement in Atahualpa's camp. And the Spanish lookouts say the entire plain is full of men. Now, Pizarro's men have all taken their places in the barracks and hiding and whatnot. And you can imagine how nervous they are now. Pedro Pizarro said, I saw many Spaniards urinate without noticing it out of pure terror. So the Incas start to advance towards the town. And I quote, they all wore large gold and silver discs like crowns on their heads.

52:38Dominic Sandbrook:They were apparently all coming in their ceremonial clothes with a livery of checkered colors like a chessboard. and as they march the incas are kind of doing this motion to sweep the ground as if clearing rubbish off the ground or something and they're singing a song which the spanish don't understand but one of them said it was by no means lacking grace for those of us who heard it half a mile outside the town the incas stop and pizarro can't believe it he sends out an interpreter why have you stopped nato alpa's men say well we've been told to halt it's mid-afternoon now and the emperor has decided he'd like to spend the night outside the city and come in tomorrow and pizarro is horrified by that he doesn't want the incas right outside the town overnight because the one thing the spanish are dreading is a night attack and he sends another spaniard to go and implore atahualpa please come and visit us before nightfall you know we won't harm you we won't hurt you you don't you can come without fear as a slightly weird thing to say why would Atahualpa be frightened?

53:42Dominic Sandbrook:There's no reason for him to be afraid. The Spanish are rather giving themselves away there, I think. They are, aren't they? Yeah. I mean, it's betraying their secret thoughts. It is. Exactly, it is. Anyway, the sun is beginning to sink, and at last Atahualpa moves. He advances now with about 6 ,000 men, leaving most of his army outside the town. His men, as they promised, have left their, as it were, the heavier weapons behind. They've got slings, they've got stones, and they've got little axes, maybe kind of ceremonial axes almost. They come through the gate. They come along the street. At last, they enter the central square.

54:17Dominic Sandbrook:The vanguard, then the emperor's party, many of them wearing these big feathered headdresses and stuff, and Atahualpa himself. He is sitting, and I quote, on a very fine litter lined with feathers of many colors and embellished with plates of gold and silver. Eighty lords carried him on their shoulders, all wearing a very rich blue livery. He was seated on the litter on a small stool with a rich saddle cushion, very richly dressed, with his crown on his head and a collar of large emeralds around his neck. Very like Montezuma on the causeway being brought out to meet Enon Cortez.

54:50Tom Holland:I mean, it is amazing how many parallels between those two stories there are. It is, isn't it? I agree completely. You do wonder, did it actually happen or are the two accounts bleeding into one another? They're not making it up, but...

55:03Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah, I think the two accounts do bleed into each other a bit, actually. I think that's what makes it quite hard to discern the truth. That said, there are enough Spanish accounts of this incident for us not to doubt it.

55:13Tom Holland:And the example of what Cortez did with Moctezuma is obviously an inspiration here. Completely.

55:18Dominic Sandbrook:So the sun has now almost set. There are thousands of Incas in the square. Attawelpa signals from the litter, and he's raised up high above people's heads. And one of his captains steps forward with his personal standard, as if to claim this kind of central platform. Now, what is Attawelper thinking at this moment? Everything we know of him is that he is a very ruthless and proud and, if necessary, violent man. I don't think he senses any danger. I think he thinks the Spanish are shambles and are undisciplined. I think his plan is that at some point this evening, he will take Pizarro prisoner.

55:54Dominic Sandbrook:Possibly he will kill him. Possibly he will kill the Spaniards. But what he wants are the horses to use in his war. what he doesn't expect is that the spaniards won't be there and he he calls out in quechua where are they you know where are you and two spaniards come out of one of these barracks one of them is a guy called hernando daldana who had learned a little quechua so he could work as a he could help with the interpreting and the other is the dominican friar vicente de valverde great to have Valverde back on the show. And he is with one of these interpreters, either Martini or Filippio.

56:35Dominic Sandbrook:And he is holding a cross in one hand and a prayer book in the other, and he advances towards Atahualpa. And there are different accounts, very confusing accounts of what happened next. But here is, I think, a way through. Valverde kicks off by saying to Atahualpa, would you like to come inside and have dinner with Francisco Pizarro? And this is obviously a ploy to get him apart from his men.

56:56Atahualpa:And Atahualpa says, no.

56:59Dominic Sandbrook:And Atahualpa says straight away, he's less conciliatory today. And he says, I've come to tell you to return everything you've stolen since you entered my kingdom. I mean, clearly, I think he's gearing up for a fight. And Valverde, who must have been very nervous, begins to recite something. And the interpreter is translating all the time. And Valverde says, I'm a minister of Christ. And he starts gabbling about the history of the world. Jesus came into the world, crucified to save sinners. My king, Charles V, has sent me to tell you all about this. You must accept Christ as your master in heaven.

57:36Dominic Sandbrook:You must accept my king, Charles V, as your master on earth. You must become his vassal. You must give up your gods. And if you don't, quote, if you refuse and seek to resist, then And you and all your people will be destroyed, just as the pharaoh of old and all his host perished in the Red Sea. I mean, if the translator is interpreting all this to Atahualpa, Atahualpa must have been listening to this thinking, what is this? I can't believe he said that.

58:02Tom Holland:Yeah, well, of course, it just seems extraordinary. But it's signaling how the Spaniards will cast the downfall of Atahualpa, right?

58:10Dominic Sandbrook:Of course, of course. Now, I think what Valverde is doing, I think what a lot of historians think what Valverde is doing, is he is reciting a version of the requirement, which is this bizarre legal document we mentioned already, that since 1513, Spanish captains are legally bound to read out to the peoples of the Americas before they kill them. now even at the time when the council of castile approved this lots of spaniards said are you mad you're going to read this out to people before you attack them i mean expect them to understand it and of course the interpreters are useless in caiamaca so they're kind of mistranslating things and atahualpa listening to this must have just thought what's gibberish yeah now atahualpa is looking confused, angry, impatient.

58:59Dominic Sandbrook:And Valverde says, perhaps you'd like to have a look at my prayer book. Making chat. Small talk. Attawelper, to stress, has never seen a book before or writing of any kind. Well, no, because he's only got cords with knots in, hasn't he? Cord with knots. Valverde gives him the book, and it's one of those books that must have a like a buckle or a clip or a lock or something like that on it. And Attawelper tries to open it and he can't open it. He's never seen an object like this. And Valverde reaches out to help him. Attawelper hits him contemptuously, manages to open the book and stares at it. And we are told he looked with great interest at the construction of the book, the sort of what it was.

59:47But

59:48Dominic Sandbrook:obviously he doesn't know that these symbols are words or that there's a story or that they're prayers or whatever. It's just madness to him. Now, what happens next is unclear. Some people say Atahualpa threw the book down in the dust and with contempt. Some say that actually Valverde took the book back and dropped it or dropped it while handing it to him or something like this. Anyway, at some point, the book ends up on the ground in the dust. And this is the pretext that the Spanish need. When the book falls, Atahualpa shouts something to his own men, but Valverde is already running back to the barracks and he's shouting to Bizarro, come out, come out, Christians.

1:00:28Dominic Sandbrook:The dogs have rejected the word of God. That proud dog has thrown my book of holy law to the ground. He has become a Lucifer. All words to that effect. That is the trigger for Pedro de Candia on the platform to fire his guns into the crowd. at the Incas. At the Incas. Now, of course, the Incas must have seen the guns, but they didn't know what they were. So what a shock that is. Suddenly the guns, there's a huge bang, bang, bang. The Incas are reeling in the crowd. Then Pedro de Candia says, sound the trumpets. The trumpets blast. So there's a sort of sensory overload. And it's at that point that the Spanish horsemen burst out of the barracks on their horses.

1:01:08Dominic Sandbrook:They've got their swords drawn. They're all screaming, Santiago, Santiago, which is their kind of war cry. And it's very like the bit at the end of the two towers, Helms Deep, when the riders of Rohan kind of burst out of the fortress, cutting a sway through the orcs. This is the scene in the square. So the Spanish have tied bells and rattles to their horses' bridles to make the maximum possible noise. And the Incas, of course, who are not used to horses, who are frightened of horses, straight away they're in total chaos. They're screaming, they're running everywhere, they're stampeding and crushing each other.

1:01:41Dominic Sandbrook:Well, it's come as a complete surprise, right? Total surprise. The Spanish have come from nowhere. Guns, horses, this is stuff they've never seen before. The swords are flashing, the Incas are slipping and falling everywhere, there's bodies piling up, there's blood everywhere. People are literally suffocating each other in the crush and the carnage. And when they get to the ends, to the gates, to the ways out of the square, Pizarro's other men are there, swords drawn to block them. Now, some of the Incas managed to break through a low wall and to get out of the square into the fields beyond. So thousands of people start streaming out into the fields, but the Spanish horsemen are following them out and the captains are shouting, and I quote, ride them down, don't let any of them escape.

1:02:25Dominic Sandbrook:And there's this scene of utter slaughter, the cavalry riding them down one by one, without mercy, cutting them down. The whole thing takes two hours, and it is a complete and utter walkover. The Wikipedia entry calls it the Battle of Chiamaque. But it's not a battle. It's not a battle. It's a complete massacre. So Spanish sources themselves said, you know, once the cavalry had done their work and then burst out following the people who were running away, the foot soldiers went into the square and they put every single person there to the sword. During all this, no Indian even raised a weapon against a Spaniard.

1:03:06Dominic Sandbrook:Atualpa's nephew, Titucuzi, who wrote his own version of events a long time afterwards, said, it was said that the Spanish went about their business like slaughter men with cattle,

1:03:16Atahualpa:just killing them grimly, methodically, without any pity.

1:03:21Tom Holland:I mean, that metaphor, it shows how long after it must have been for an Inca to come up with that.

1:03:27Dominic Sandbrook:Exactly, yeah. John Hemming, in his brilliant book, The Conquest of the Incas, said, you know, how do you know how many people died? Somewhere between 2 ,000 and 8 ,000, even if you take a kind of lower estimate. Each Spaniard must have killed probably 10, 12, 14, 15 Peruvians each. I mean, there's a lot of bloodshed. It's a dreadful, dreadful story. And among the people who were killed, of course, are Atahualpa's elite, his stewards, his servants, his friends, his counsellors, his chief advisors, his chief noblemen, his chief captains, all of these people who would have been with him, who would never have, they would never have thought that anything like this could happen.

1:04:08Dominic Sandbrook:So it is a complete decapitation. Yeah, complete catastrophe for the Inca state. And Dominic, I have to ask, what about the emperor? Well, so right at the beginning, Pizarro and his men had made straight for the litter. And they'd been shouting Santiago as well. They hacked their way through the crowd. And Pizarro, we're told, grabbed hold of Atahualpa's left arm. But he couldn't pull him out of the litter, which of course has been held up quite high. And loads of Incas are clinging to the litter to stop them taking the emperor. And the Spanish, I mean a hideous scene, are literally hacking at the Incas' arms, cutting off their hands, cutting off their arms in an attempt to get the litter down.

1:04:48Dominic Sandbrook:But more Incas are rushing around to protect him. Eventually, one of the Spaniards, Miguel de Estete, who wrote a really good memoir about all this, he pulled the crown off Atahualpa's head, and then he slashed at Atahualpa with his knife. And Pizarro shouted, no, don't kill him. And he put his hand in the way. So his own man cut his hand, which is now dripping with blood. Eventually, in the chaos, seven or eight Spaniards managed to kind of weigh down one side of the litter, and they dragged Atahualpa out, and they bundled him away through the chaos towards the temple of the sun. And they locked him in this temple while the rest of their comrades went about their murderous work in the square.

1:05:29Dominic Sandbrook:And then when the fighting had totally died down, they brought him out again. They dragged him to one of the barracks. He's covered with blood. His clothes are ragged, all of that. They give him new clothes. Are they European clothes or? That I don't know actually. It just says new clothes. I'm guessing maybe European clothes. And then they bring him in to see Pizarro, who like a Bond villain, has set up - Will you meet again, Mr. Atalapa? Set up a table and chairs for dinner. Actually, it's interesting, the table and chairs. The Incas didn't eat with the table and chairs. So are we led to believe that the Spanish had brought a table and chairs with them?

1:06:11Tom Holland:I mean, yeah.

1:06:12Dominic Sandbrook:That sounds improbable. It's a mad detail, but so much of this story is mad. Actually, it's going to get madder. Because Atalpa sits down to dinner with Pizarro, surrounded by Spanish guards and servants. As John Hemming says in his brilliant book, what a weird scene. The Spaniards are caked in blood and sweat, and Pizarro is having dinner. And Atalpa is sitting there, I mean, completely traumatized, right? Do we know what they're eating? I don't know what guinea pig, surely. Guinea pig? Guinea pig and sweet potatoes. and then if that's not weird enough Pizarro says a sentence that I don't think anyone listening to this will expect you'll sleep with me tonight because this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship because basically he says to the servants make up a mattress for the emperor he will sleep with me next to me we will sleep side by side and so you have this incredible scene the most powerful man in South America bedding down for the night right next to this illegitimate, illiterate Spanish veteran who has just pulled off one of the most amazing coups in all history.

1:07:19Dominic Sandbrook:Do you think either of them get any sleep? I see Pizarro as a snorer, to be honest. So I think it's a tough night for Atahualpa. Night falls over Kayamaca. Outside the city in their camp, the Inca army is just in disbelief of what's happened. In the square, the carrion crows are feasting on the bodies of the dead. And Pizarro's quarters, he and Atahualpa are lying a few inches away from each other with Spanish guards by the door. It has been one of the most incredible days in history. One chronicler said, truly, it was not accomplished by our own forces, for there were so few of us. It was by the grace of God.

1:07:58Dominic Sandbrook:But of course, it wasn't really the grace of God. It was the recklessness, the ingenuity, the daring of Pizarro, and the brutality of the conquistadors that had brought all this about.

1:08:10Tom Holland:And I suppose the complete miscomprehension that Atahualpa had of what he was up against. I mean, cruel and brutal, though he is as well.

1:08:17Dominic Sandbrook:Yeah, of course. I mean, my heart doesn't bleed for Atahualpa, but what happened to the Incas in that square is still pretty brutal, pretty horrible. but the story of course isn't over because there are still only 168 Spaniards and they are still surrounded by tens of thousands of Inca warriors and they're still at the heart of a country of more than 10 million people you know who are not necessarily very friendly to them so Pizarro now has some choices to make and we will soon find out what his plan is and what he has in mind for Atahualpa emperor of the Incas but we won't find out until the next episode.

1:08:54Tom Holland:So members of the Rest is History Club can hear that episode right now. And a massive excitement, they will be able to get the next three episodes on Thursday. And if you are not a member of the Rest is History Club, not a member of our happy band of conquistadors, and you would like to join them, then head to therestishistory.com to sign up. But for now, adios. Adios.

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