102. Has Trump Turned His Back on Israel?

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0:35Welcome to The Rest is Politics US with me, Katty Kay. And I'm Anthony Scaramucci. Still in Sicily, still in the White Lotus Hotel, still on holiday. And for all of our viewers and listeners out there, I recommend the Godfather tour. I took my wife this morning, Katty. It was really a lot of fun. Why does that not surprise me that that's what you do? You know, it's just fun. Yeah, it's good. It's good. And you went to the bar, indeed. Yes, of course. The famous bar. What are we talking about, girl? What's going on today? What's going on? I'm going to drag you from the beach and remind you that there is a world out there.

1:10I apologize. But we are going to unpack Donald Trump's comments on Gaza. It's pretty clear that there is a gap growing between Washington and London. will talk about the special relationship, the degree to which it still holds, whether Donald Trump might be persuaded by the images from Gaza. And then we are going to look at Donald Trump giving Putin just 10 days to agree to a Ukraine ceasefire. Is it real pressure? Is it headlines? And he has, as we are recording this on Wednesday afternoon in London, he has just announced that But there will also be secondary tariffs, I guess they are, on India for importing energy and arms from Russia because of the Ukraine situation.

2:02So we can get to all of that. But let's start on Gaza. And before we get to kind of how much pressure there is growing for Donald Trump in the States on this, And I had a very interesting conversation with a senator, which we can get into about how he believes there should be much more pressure and America should actually withdraw aid to Israel until children are no longer starving in Gaza. You wanted, Anthony, to talk about the special relationship between the UK and the US. So why don't you kick off with your thoughts on that following Donald Trump's visit to Scotland? Well, the reason I want to talk about that is that it is alive and well.

2:40And I think what's most interesting, had Joe Biden been president, that relationship would have been alive and well. And weirdly, I think the current president, President Trump, is more of an Anglophile than just about any president in the last 25 years. And so the trade deal is an example of that. It got done fairly quickly. And it's at, let's face it, it's at a 33 % discount to the EU. But I wanted to get your reaction to this because it caught me as an American observing. here is Donald Trump at his Scottish golf course. And he's got, of course, a big mansion on the golf course or what you guys call a manor house.

3:22And he's greeting the UK prime minister. And so he's greeting a head of state in his own country at his manor house. So I don't know, let's say Vladimir Putin bought a big countryside manor house in the US. Would the American president go to him and visit him there and be his guest and have Putin be his host? Putin's probably a bad example. Let's use Macron as an example. Let's say he bought a Chateau equivalent somewhere up the Potomac. Would the president be traveling up there to visit him? And I'm not sure of the answer to that, Cady. I would like to get your impression. But I think it speaks to the UK's need to want to be on side with America post-Brexit.

4:12And I think it speaks to the notion that they realize that they have to do a lot of obsequious-like behavior with Donald Trump that, frankly, they're okay with. What say you about this? I mean, I don't think we need to say that we're not sure whether an American president would go and visit a French president who'd bought himself a kind of chateau pile down the Potomac, there is no way an American president would be in that position, right? Particularly Donald Trump. So, it was something that the British press caught up on, just like you have, and the American press too, that it was Donald Trump flexing and making Keir Starmer and Keir Starmer's wife come up, and he was the one hosting them effectively.

5:01I mean, he was the one in that hour plus press conference that dominated the press conference, called the shots. That is unusual when you're visiting a foreign country. Now, maybe the White House would say, well, Donald Trump is going to be the guest of the United Kingdom at the state visit in September. This was Donald Trump at his golf course in Turnberry in Scotland. And so the prime minister came to him, also Ursula von der Leyen from the European Union, the head of the European Union, also came to him. And again, in that situation, it very much looked, the optics were that Donald Trump was the one in charge.

5:34But I mean, in both of those situations, the thing that struck me when we talk about kind of Gaza and the special relationship is that Keir Starmer tried to push back a couple of times in that encounter in front of the cameras against Donald Trump, once on Gaza, another time when Donald Trump was very weighed into British politics. Again, unusual, right? Weighed into British politics, criticizing the mayor of London. And the prime minister jumped in and said, hold on a second, he's a friend of mine. But both Ursula von der Leyen and Keir Starmer know that they have to be very careful and very judicious about the moments when they do publicly criticize the president because they need things out of him.

6:18And I think that was made abundantly clear over the course of this visit that the Europeans and the Brits, they got a better trade deal, but they're the supplicants in this relationship. And this idea of a kind of G minus one world, as opposed to G7 or G20, it's G minus one that people are talking about, a world without the United States. In a sense, that's just unrealistic. I mean, the calculation was made in Europe, in Brussels and the calculation was made in London and so far in almost every other country apart from Beijing, and we don't know the results of that, that you have to get on with Donald Trump.

6:57And if that means being a supplicant, if that means you go and visit him on your home territory and you look like you're the guest, even though he is, then so be it. And I think what's interesting about the special relationship, yes, the special relationship is alive and well, and that's why Britain got, to some extent, a better deal. And Donald Trump talked about that. But it's not an easy relationship, Anthony. I mean, it's not as easy a relationship as it has been at times in the past. I mean, I'm remembering back to Tony Blair when he was called a poodle for going along with George Bush at the beginning of the Iraq war.

7:33It's not as fractious of that with the British people. But Keir Starmer has to tread a line between getting what he needs out of Donald Trump and not antagonizing him and also realizing that he has his domestic constituents who don't love Donald Trump, who don't frankly love the American government at the moment. And that puts any leader in a slightly awkward position. I mean, it's lovely to say the special relationship is the special relationship and it's all rosy, but it's not all rosy. And I think it'd be kind of unrealistic to say it was. I mean, I don't know what into the calculus of making the decision to go visit him.

8:10I mean, he could have called and said that he was having his two front teeth drilled out by a dentist, like a marathon man. He could have said that he was, you know, faked a cardiac arrest and been in the hospital. I mean, I just, to me, I think it was a bad move. To me, every time you meet with Trump, you're giving him an opportunity to humiliate you. You're giving him an opportunity to degrade your standing in the world, even if he's praising you. You know, he called Starmer hard left in November when he was elected. Now he's saying he's a quote unquote strong prime minister and quote unquote, we have this unparalleled relationship.

8:49But while he's doing this, it's sort of like Trump Tower. And so I just want to remind people when we did our 2016 election special for founding members, I described Trump's office on the 26th floor of Trump Tower. he's sitting six to 12 inches higher than normal in an executive chair and you're down at least six to 12 inches so there's a there's a two foot separation with which normal and i'm not a tall guy as you know and i i'm sitting there literally peering up at him over the desk and that's designed to get him in a power position relative to you. And so to me, when world leaders are meeting with Donald Trump and they don't need to meet with him, the trade deal is signed.

9:41They're giving him an opportunity to perform his humiliation ritual. And so even when he's praising Stormer, he's hurting Stormer. That is my honest opinion. Stormer started out great, him and Mandelson. He flattered the guy by getting him the state dinner. He got the trade deal done. Stay away from Trump. Stay away from the orange virus. Okay. Because it's just going to cause you're not enhancing your relationship with him. And it's just going to cost you your standing in the internal politics of your own country. That's my opinion. I just wanted to share that with you because I'm telling you, once again, Mark Carney, push back.

10:25Mark Carney is fighting for his country and will likely get a very good trade deal because the US, many of its industries are dependent on natural resources that are coming out of Canada. That NAFTA deal, USMCA deals 30 plus years old, very hard to unwind. Okay. Yes, the trade deal is done. Let me get to that in a minute. I think you're right on the leaders and it was sort of excruciating and I had the pleasure of being on the real Rest is Politics. Did you know there's a grown-up Rest is Politics? We're the kids, they're the grown-ups. I did. And I was on with Alistair Campbell this week and I think I mentioned it there.

11:00Making me choke when I think of it. You were with Alistair and he was reminding you that he's superior to you and me? Is that what he was doing? I mean, he can flex too, that's okay. He was the original, he's the GOAT. What I think I said on that program is that both of them looked like they're sitting there, both Ursula von der Leyen and Keir Starmer because of the experience of foreign leaders in the Oval Office, they are sitting there looking like they're a kind of gazelle in the Kenyan bush, kind of on high alert for any predator or danger that may come that way. I mean, that's what it felt like.

11:34They are just watching intensely and listening intensely. Is there something coming that is going to derail this meeting and derail this press conference? Am I going to be undermined in front of my own people by something that Donald Trump says or does? And meanwhile, there is Donald Trump looking super relaxed and in control and just talking off the cuff about windmills and whatever else it is, the London mayor, whatever else it is. He's not tense. He's not nervous. He's not the one looking out for signs of danger. It is those other leaders. And you're right that the trade deal is done. But the reason that Keir Starmer and the Europeans, who were obviously still negotiating their trade deal, can't afford to alienate Donald Trump is the whole host of other issues that they need to deal with.

12:25I mean, it's abundantly clear that the real pressure on Israel, and let's talk about Gaza, over the situation in Gaza and the humanitarian crisis has to come from Donald Trump. I interviewed the French foreign minister on Morning Joe this morning and I asked, is there much more that France could do? What else could France be doing? And he said, yes, yes, yes, there's lots of things we are doing. We are preparing various resolutions and talking to the Israelis. But the truth is, Europe is stuck when it comes to Israel without Donald Trump. It'll be Donald Trump calling up Benjamin Netanyahu that will force the Israelis to let the aid trucks into Gaza.

13:02And Keir Starmer knows that. I don't know that not meeting with Donald Trump is an option. I don't know that for any country, not dealing with the Americans is an option. Yeah. Ultimately, when he sat down and he put out the decision matrix, he said, listen, despite all of the gazelle-like risks that you're describing, I've got to go meet with the guy anyway. We're going to transition into Gaza, and I think it's a good opportunity to do so. But I just want to make one comment to you, Katty. If he ever calls you, if Trump is ever in a meeting, Let's say I'm in a meeting with Trump and him and I are together.

13:37And he says, you know, Katty Kay is a nasty woman. I'm going to say, and I quote, she's actually a friend of mine. I mean, that was a very uncomfortable. And of course, I'm referring to Sadiq Khan. It was very uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable. Yeah. But I promise you, Katty, I'm going to come to your defense. Thank you. And I'm going to say she's actually a friend of mine. Even if the lions are prowling on the savannah, you will be there defending me. What I would do is say, our orange buffoon, why don't you knock it off? You don't even know who Sadiq Khan is. You had a little bit of a tussle with him on Twitter five years ago.

14:13He mentioned Stormer as hard left. Prior to that, he said he was a small government tax cutter. He has no idea who these politicians are. And you remember he was gaffing left and right on the internal politics of the UK in the meeting. So I just think it's bizarre. But let's go to Palestine because they talked about Palestine. And Stormer said that he's willing to potentially recognize it. Francis said that they will recognize a Palestinian state. And where do you think Trump is on this? And where do you think this is going? So Donald Trump obviously has made it clear that he has no intention.

14:48and I can't see an American government that would recognize a Palestinian state anytime in the near future. It might happen one day, but I don't think it's going to happen now. But Donald Trump on the flight back home again said that he's not going to take a position, but he also said he doesn't mind Keir Starmer taking a position. I do think these images of children and babies starving in Gaza that have been on the front pages of American papers have got through. You now have Marjorie Taylor Greene coming out and saying that there is genocide in Gaza. You have Steve Bannon defending Marjorie Taylor Greene and saying she is just reflecting her constituents who are quite heavily evangelical Christians in her district in Georgia.

15:35A lot of her voters are evangelical Christians. So you've got something of a kind of pressure building clearly on the Democratic side, but now potentially even on the Republican side. And it's going to be interesting to see how much pressure Donald Trump is prepared to put on Benjamin Netanyahu to open up the gates to the trucks, because he mentioned the airdrops. That's not enough. I mean, he clearly doesn't really understand the aid distribution process, but that's not the point. He just needs to call up Benjamin Netanyahu and say, this has to end. Food has to get in. Nutritionist has to get in.

16:12Nutrition and paste has to get in. Everything that is needed to stop babies starving needs to happen, and it needs to happen right now. And the question is, is he going to do that? How upset about this situation is he, and how much leverage is he prepared to use? Well, listen, he's a ruthless guy, but even if you're a ruthless person watching those images, I do think he's impacted by those images. And I think he's also signaling, and this is a good point our producers brought up prior to the show, he's signaling to his MAGA base that the starvation facts are real. He said publicly, you know, in Scotland, the exact quote was, this is something that you can't fake, Katty.

16:59And so I think he's trying to signal to people that, hey, there might be some people on Truth Social, there might be some people on X that are saying that these people are not starving. But Trump is letting you know that he believes that they're starving. And so hopefully he will do that. As I mentioned earlier in the week, he could pick up the phone, call Netanyahu and say, hey, 15 days, leave everybody alone. I'll get these UN trucks, humanitarian aid, US aid into the area to try to feed people. Now, listen, he's also saying, well, we're giving money, but the Hamas political organization is taking the money, taking the food.

17:38I don't know if that's true or not. Some of it may be true. But I guess the real thing is he's doing nothing about Ukraine at this moment, and he's doing nothing about Gaza. And so the question would then be, well, why is he doing that? And I think the answer is the same. He's got two very strong leaders, alpha male leaders that are flexing, and Trump can hyper-masculate all he wants, but he's actually a low-conflict beta male, and he doesn't want to be tussling with those two guys. And that's just the facts. He can pretend otherwise. It's all embedded in the taco situation where he chickens out or he changes his tune at the last minute.

18:25He had Howard Lutnick on over the weekend and said there'd be no extension to the Chinese tariff deadline. And then 12 hours later, they extended the tariff deadline, which is why the market doesn't take them seriously. But I think ultimately he's handling both of these leaders in a very passive way, which is not to the image he's trying to project, right? He's trying to project a different image, but there's an arbitrage between what his image is in terms of what he's trying to project and what he is actually willing to do. And he doesn't want to cross either of those two leaders, despite the bellicosity of his rhetoric.

19:02You understand the kind of Christian voting base in the States well. Do you think that the need for humanitarian action and the dismay at the Israeli action that is causing this famine is breaking through to Marjorie Taylor Greene's voters? I had two really interesting conversations in the last couple of days, One was Senator King of Maine, who has put out a very forceful statement. It's worth people reading, saying that there should be no more aid to Israel from America while children are starving. He told me that if America is giving aid to Israel at the moment, then effectively America is complicit in the starvation of those children.

19:55He was very clear about the responsibility of the United States to do something and to do more. And he also said that his constituents are very upset about this. I also heard from a Democratic congresswoman who said her constituents are very upset about this and are making phone calls about this. So do you think that evangelical Christians who voted for Donald Trump and who are tending to be Republican voters are now calling their Republican members of Congress during this summer recess and saying, you have to do something about Gaza. Listen, I think that there are some. Obviously, Marjorie Taylor Greene is out there on X saying that she denounces the famine that's going on.

20:35She wants the Israeli government to take action to stop the famine. But I don't see this as a groundswell. I don't see evangelical leaders, because I'm looking for it, looking for evangelical leaders in the Bible Belt to get to the podium on a Sunday and saying, this is an atrocity, what's going on in this area, and you need to call your congressman. If they had that happen, there would be a tsunami of phone calls hitting Washington, and then you would see some sugar pulling by the Republicans. I don't see that. And I'm going to tell people this, which they either understand or they don't understand, but I've traveled through the entire country.

21:16and I've said this to you, Caddy, many times, there's America and then there's America. And America is a very different place. And America is a place where Israel is number one. Israel is the Holy Land. It is the land of Jesus. There's a literal interpretation of the Bible. And the Orthodox Christians in this country believe that in order for a second coming to happen, the Israelis, the Jews need to be controlling that area. We can call it Israel. We can call it Palestine, whatever you want to go. Zion, whatever you want to call it. The Orthodox Christians in this country believe that you need to have Jews controlling that area.

22:02And so they're turning a blind eye to a lot of the stuff that's going on now. And while the Israeli government doesn't allow foreign journalists in there, of course, we're not getting it's hard even harder to get the full picture of what is happening they're hurting but let me tell you you know look i know we got to take a break but they are hurting their brand and if they want to elicit a sycophants in their court telling you that they're not hurting their brand i'm telling you the optics for for the israeli government is really bad and it's uh and it's it's changing and it's changing public opinion from secularists that are looking at the situation.

22:36And that's not to take anything away from the tragedy that took place on October 7th. I'm just talking about proportionate and asymmetrical responses and just living in the real world, the real practical world. What they're doing right now is really hurting their brand. And for those who haven't followed American politics and the relationship with Israel as closely, it is striking to have a senator want to speak to me, to call me up to say this response is disproportionate and America should cut off aid while we have children starving in Gaza. That doesn't happen very often. It may not lead to anything, unlikely to lead to any cutoff of aid, but it is a difference.

23:21That marks a change in the body politic. Okay, we're going to take a break and come back and talk about Ukraine. I'm David Olushoge. And I'm Sarah Churchwell. Together, we're the hosts of Journey Through Time, where we explore the darkest depths of history through the eyes of the people who lived through it. Today, we're going to tell you about our new series on the Great Fire of London, one of the great pivotal events of the 17th century, one of the most important events in all of English and British history. It began at a bakery on Pudding Lane and quickly turned into a catastrophe. It consumed 13 ,000 houses, decimated London and caused 10 billion pounds worth of damage in today's money.

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26:07Welcome back to The Rest is Politics U.S. I'm Anthony Scaramucci. I'm Katty Kay. So, Katty, we're going to talk about the revised ceasefire deal. So the president of the United States, Donald Trump, said he's going to give 50 days for Vladimir Putin to figure this out. And of course, he also said that every time he goes home now, he says, I've spoken to Vladimir today. and the first lady looks at him and he says, geez, I had a wonderful conversation. And the first lady says, oh, really, another city was hit. So the president has grown frustrated about this. And he's saying he's truncating the 50 days.