151. The Greenland Crisis, NATO’s Future, and ‘Reality TV’ Diplomacy with Senator Chris Coons

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2:22Anthony Scaramucci:Welcome back to The Rest is Politics, U.S. With me, Katty Kaye. I'm here with Anthony Scaramucci, of course, and we are lucky to be joined here in Davos by Senator Chris Coons, the Democratic senator from Delaware, who has just flown into Davos from Copenhagen. He led that congressional delegation to Copenhagen to try to address the crisis over Greenland. Senator Coons, you've just come with a bipartisan delegation from Copenhagen to Davos. When you're in Copenhagen, you're meeting with Danes, you're meeting with people from Greenland. What was your impression of their fear level about the prospect of the United States trying to take over Greenland?

2:58Well, the Danes were very concerned, even alarmed. The Greenlandic representatives we met with talked about how the whole country, all 57 ,000 of them, are overcome with a sense of the imminence of a possible threat. We had particularly moving conversations with Greenlandic representatives about the impact on their children, on their families, that they believe an attack is imminent. From the Danes, it was more a sense of deep disappointment, even an offense, because they've served and fought and died alongside Americans. They lost 52 combat deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq. They've been our ally for 225 years.

3:38And 25 years ago when we were attacked on 9-11, they didn't ask. They didn't hesitate. They deployed Afghanistan to Iraq, served alongside us in the ISIS mission. We have a long and close partnership. And the general mood from the prime minister to college students to business leaders to think tank professionals was one of – this was unthinkable. and it also really hurt them. To me, it's a little bit like a reality television show. He'll de-escalate after all the drama, but at some point he's going to upset leadership around the world where they're going to take him more seriously and put some teeth back into him and could cause an economic crisis, an economic war, etc.

4:22And so is there anything, given what you know about the Senate and the procedures, that we can do to sort of slow that down? There is, but it requires the majority, Republican senators, to demonstrate some courage, to take some risks. And there are a number of members of the Senate who have publicly spoken out against the threats to take Greenland because it is so harmful to our national interests. It really hurts our credibility as a partner and ally. It'll hurt our economy. And there's no clear benefit to the United States. So folks have been more forward-leaning. I've been traveling with Senators Tillis and Murkowski.

5:00They've given both very strong floor speeches against this and very public speeches against this. But we need more than two. And there are more senators who are reaching out to the president and his advisors. But frankly, when we didn't stand up against unqualified nominees and when we didn't stand up against the misuse of tariffs in the first term and in the first year of the second term, we're inviting abuse of these core powers.

5:25Anthony Scaramucci:Could Greenland be the breaking point for Republicans? A question I get asked a lot when I'm in Europe is, where is the Republican Party? I actually get asked, where is the Democratic Party too? But where is the Republican Party and what would make them stand up to Donald Trump? Are you suggesting that Greenland could be the answer to that? This is wildly unpopular. Amongst your Republican colleagues? And Delawareans. I mean, millions of Americans want us to deal with the cost of living. That's one of their top issues is the cost of groceries and health care and housing. And we're not doing anything on that.

6:00And they're beginning to see a whole series of Venezuela, the Christmas bombing of Nigeria, the strikes against Iran, the threats of strikes against Cuba or Colombia. And they're saying, hang on a minute. I thought, Mr. President, I thought you ran on lower my prices, make America healthy again, no new foreign wars. And he's seeming to take a whole series of military actions that don't make a ton of sense to them. The most recent polling I've seen, 75 % of Americans of both parties, 50 % of Republicans disapprove of this threatening action. They don't see the benefit. And so if he goes ahead with it and it blows up NATO or it starts a terror for with the EU, I think that becomes a decisive issue in the midterm elections, which are now just a little over 10 months away.

6:50What should the Europeans do now? I think they need to come to a unified and clear position. And to communicate what their red lines are. We met with the Danish prime minister as well as foreign minister and defense minister. And the both Danish and Greenlandic prime minister has made very clear that they will not sell Greenland and they will not simply give it away. If the Europeans say, here you go, sorry for your luck, Denmark, you're going to lose this territory that's been part of your country for hundreds of years, that would deescalate. But what's next? Iceland, I mean, I think it was Churchill who said of someone else that the appetite only grows with the eating.

7:32And so if we're going to threaten allies for no particular benefit to the United States, what happens next?

7:38Anthony Scaramucci:Sounds like you're saying you want the Europeans to stand up and be a bit tougher with Donald Trump. I think they need to take a clear and firm stand because there's so much else we are doing well on together. NATO really has stepped up to carry the financial burden of arming Ukraine, of their own defense. The EU is about to conclude a tariff deal to deescalate and better integrate our economies. We're in a good place with the EU and NATO. But, you know, look, President Trump, I am really hoping is going to deescalate. If he doesn't, I think they need to be firm. So about the culture war in the United States, which you and I unfortunately know a lot about.

8:14And the president is the great general of the culture war. He's putting memes out where he's got the American flag on places like Venezuela and Canada. he's owning the libs by doing this and he's upsetting the weak beta Europeans. I mean, I'm just giving you his thought process.

8:32Anthony Scaramucci:Can I just say as a European, I take offense to that characterization of my cult? I don't see that. I'm not saying it. I'm channeling Trump. I mean, it's obviously not in our national interest, but what is he thinking? Oh, this is great. I'm owning the libs and that's what my base wants me to do. I think a big part of his brand and his success electorally has been being tough and standing up. And I do think the average American thinks that foreign aid was a waste of money, that our European allies have taken advantage of us, that his military strikes against Iran and Venezuela showed toughness and determination, and now people won't mess with us anymore.

9:11There is an element of truth to that. But there's also a bigger element of truth that we cannot possibly successfully stand up to China and Russia, our two principal adversaries in the world, without allies and partners, economically and militarily, we are made more secure and more prosperous by our global network of alliances. And what's concerning about the new national security strategy from the Trump administration doesn't clearly identify China as our biggest global adversary or pacing threat, doesn't clearly identify Russia as the aggressor in Europe, and instead focuses on culture war issues.

9:50To your point, you're such a great messenger for the Democratic Party, but I feel like broadly the Democratic Party's message is not being heard by the American people. Like, is there a way to convey what you're saying here more broadly? I think Democrats need to recognize that we lost the last election. It's not just that Donald Trump won it, it's that we lost it. And in critical demographics that we have always counted on, We have lost ground and are losing ground. And unless we are running positively, affirmatively on a vision that the average American can look at and see themselves in it, we're not going to win again.

10:25We may win control of the House by a few seats. We might come close in the Senate. But we're still going to be in a closely divided country where the principal issue in the last presidential election was cost of living. Principal in the midterms can be cost of living. Principal issue can be cost of living in the next one. And there are structural reasons why bringing the price of housing down quickly is hard. Dealing with the cost of health care is hard. Now, obviously, letting the Affordable Care Act health care subsidies expire at the end of this year, slashing Medicaid, which is going to come into effect next year, really harmful for the average American.

11:00But you're right. Most folks want to say, well, what do the Democrats stand for? And I'm doing a lot of talking about how we need a simple message with a few simple bills that says we're fighting for you, for your family, for opportunity. We're going to work hard to deliver security for you, both physical security and retirement and health care security. And we care about justice. We care about how we deliver those things. So we're going to fight for border security and for security inside the United States and reform our immigration system, but do it in a humane way. We're going to care about criminal justice reform, but we're going to deliver support for public safety and reduce crime and reduce addiction and reduce the harms to our communities.

11:41Anthony Scaramucci:We had a meeting earlier, the three of us, with a group of European executives. And one of the things I thought was really interesting that they were asking you is, where is the system and why is the American system not being able to stand against the excesses of this administration more effectively? And you pointed out something that I think many people here aren't aware of, which is how much has been done by Democrats around the country actually to try to constrain the president. And I think that'd be a useful thing in a world in which Donald Trump just sucks up so much oxygen and gets all of the attention.

12:16Anthony Scaramucci:There are things that are happening to contain him that aren't getting so much attention. Tell us about that. In federal court, there have been 500 cases filed against the actions of the Trump administration. Doge, shutting down, canceling, defunding, legally authorized, statutorily authorized and appropriated activities of the federal government. Democratic attorneys general and organizations that have challenged Trump's actions have won 75 % of those cases. And they've had significant consequences. But you're right, because President Trump is a reality TV master who, you know, keeps it on a cliffhanger and, oh, but look over here next.

12:54Next, he announces with great fanfare, we're cutting this or we're canceling this or we're shutting this down. And then there's a lawsuit. And then three months later, he loses. And then the money is restored or the program is restarted quietly. Now, with Doshi produced a lot of chaos and not a lot of savings, a lot of harm to our reputation around the world, a lot of harm to the hundreds of thousands of people who either retired from the federal government or were fired or whose organizations were shut down.

13:21Anthony Scaramucci:Or the people who use those federal government services who aren't getting as good services now. Whether it's the VA or Social Security. But now Democrats have to say, what happened? What's our plan? How would we have done it better? And how will we do it better going forward? We can't just spend all our time talking about Donald Trump. That feeds into this sense of frenzy and nothing is happening if all I do is breathlessly attack him. I got to tell you what I'm for and what I'm willing to do. More military adventurism ahead. Look, the more President Trump is successful with quick, sharp, targeted military strikes and does not get American troops involved into long-term conflicts, I think the more he will use that tool both to distract and to advance his sense of American power.

14:08All we were talking about in Washington is the Epstein files and how the president and the Department of Justice slow-rolled, refused, delayed. They've still only released about 2 % of the total documents. And the strikes in Venezuela totally changed the conversation. I'm not suggesting that that timing was aligned, but it certainly changed the subject. Almost no one's talking about the Epstein files in Congress right now because they are now so alarmed about the potential aggression against Greenland, the potential collapse of NATO, what's going on here, what's been going on there. Is Cuba next?

14:42Is Iran next? And so his military adventurism does change the subject when there's something inconvenient, like the expiration of the Affordable Care Act health subsidies, which happened right at the end of the year, right when there was a significant uptick in threats to strike Iran. The president encouraged protesters in Iran. They had huge nationwide protests. And he said, help is on the way. We're locked and loaded. We're ready. And then he stepped it back. That's partly because the relevant assets to carry out strikes in Iran were elsewhere. He wasn't prepared. They're largely deployed in the Southern Caribbean and the Western Pacific.

15:21You can't just carry out endless military adventures. We do have the world's most powerful and capable military, but it is not limitless. And so there are costs to this, both operationally, financially, and in terms of our reputation. And the adventurism is the part that concerns me the most, because as we lose allies and as we lose legitimacy, we lose power.

15:43Anthony Scaramucci:Let me put on my anxious European hat, and it's a question I get asked a lot when I'm here, which is how can we ever as Europeans, as allies, have confidence in the United States again? It's going to be difficult. It will likely be the work of the rest of my life, should I be reelected in the Senate, to try and rebuild. but we're going to have to reconfigure a lot of what has been the military alliance that's kept the peace for 75 years and the economic partnership that has made Europe and the United States prosperous. And if the next couple of years produces a fundamental shift where NATO collapses and no longer exists, the consequences for our bases, for our ability to project power, for our security will be dramatic.

16:31If we bear the costs of a tariff fight, which would be the worst one since the Great Depression, that what is keyed up here literally would be as bad as the Smoot-Hawley tariffs that kicked off the Great Depression, then we're in a very different place. If it is instead that there's been a roller coaster ride that was uncomfortable, that was terrifying, that was alarming, that was concerning, it partly depends how populism ends, how the Trump administration ends if it does. If the successor to him who is elected runs on and wins on the same sort of culture war and America's tough and America's back and America first, and we don't care about America alone, it'll be very hard to restore that confidence.

17:13There may be admiration for our innovation or our culture or our nation and its beauty, but a skittishness or a distance in terms of alliances and partnerships. On the other hand, we have fought through very hard times domestically before. In the run-up to the Second World War, the United States went through a profound period of self-doubt, of deep divisions. I'll remind you, America First was first a theme among those who said we shouldn't get involved in the wars of Europe. And this was a time when there were huge rallies of the American Bund that was pro-Nazi, that was pro-Hitler. That division deep in the United States, we made a clear decision and moved past it.

17:56I think the same has to happen now, where Americans see the sacrifices that we made slipping away from us, and we move and move in the right direction.

18:05Anthony Scaramucci:Senator Koontz, thanks so much for joining us here in Davos.

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