153. Inside Europe’s Standoff with Trump | The Norwegian Prime Minister

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2:37Welcome to The Rest is Politics US. I'm Katty Kaye. And in this episode, we're going to do something a little bit different. I'm going to be joined by the Prime Minister of Norway, Jonas Garstora, who I spoke to recently in Davos, Switzerland, when Anthony and I were there for the conference. And the reason we wanted to speak to the Prime Minister is that he has been at the center of so much that is important in America's relationships with Europe and with its allies at the moment. It's the prime minister of Norway, of course, who received the letter from Donald Trump saying that he was going after Greenland because he hadn't received the Nobel Peace Prize.

3:17Donald Trump criticized the Norwegian government for not giving him the prize, saying that actually this was nothing to do with the Nobel Committee. It was actually the Norwegian government's choice. the Prime Minister has been involved in all of the negotiations around Greenland and also, just as importantly, in the path forward in dealing with Europe's response to the Trump administration, what to do about tariffs, what to do about defence spending, what to do about building alliances with other countries. We talked about all of that in our conversation. I think it was super timely. We talked, of course, about the Ukraine war as well, how that could end and how the Europeans are trying to support the Ukrainians as they struggle between the war on the one hand and the Americans on the other hand who are distancing themselves from Ukraine and Ukraine's war efforts.

4:08The prime minister is really at the center of all of that. Norway, a key member of NATO, not a European Union country, but a country that has a close alliance with the European Union, so very much at the heart of European negotiations. So I hope you find the conversation interesting. I think it's very timely and I'm glad we had a chance to do it. So take a listen. Prime Minister Stora, thank you very much for joining me. Good to be here. Have I got that even remotely right, the pronunciation of your name? There's a strange O with a slash, you know, which is a. Okay, I won't keep on repeating it because I'll get it wrong.

4:42Let's start with that letter. When you received it, what did you make of it? Well, let me just say it was not a letter at the outset, because Sunday afternoon I texted to Donald Trump on behalf of Alex Stubb, president of Finland, and myself. We work together on many issues. We are, you know, neighbors in the north, suggesting that ahead of Davos and all the themes now, Greenland, Ukraine, Gaza, we should perhaps talk. It would be good to talk. and we invited Trump to have a phone call in the afternoon at the time of his convenience. So that was the message. And half an hour later, the answer, what you call the letter came back in a text back to me.

5:24My reaction was that, I mean, one is no longer surprised by things that are, you know, unconventional. It was not really a reply to my invitation to have a talk. so it was a confirmation of his lust for Grina and then there was this Nobel Peace Prize entry which I mean speaks for itself I don't feel the need to comment it further I think people see what it is and they should make up their mind about it he reiterated again in a press conference at the White House just before he came over here and I think he said it up on the stage even that make no mistake you know Norway says that it doesn't control I can't even really believe I'm having to ask you this question.

6:06But anyway, let's ask the question so we have it on the record. He said, Norway says that it doesn't control the Nobel Prize. But let's all be honest. Yes, Norway does control the Nobel Prize. Can you clarify just for us so we have it? Well, I mean, at the outset, you know, Alfred Nobel wrote his will in the mid 1890s. And he decided to ask the Norwegian parliament. We were not yet independent from Sweden. The only parliament that had never declared war on any country. that that parliament should appoint a committee to award the Peace Prize in his name. You know, this is a long time ago. And since then, there has been a committee with that task.

6:41And it is a committee that, you know, in my lifetime has been extremely focused on integrity and secrecy. They get nominations for candidates by the end of January in a year. Who has in the previous year done most for, you know, living up to what was in that mandate from the 1890s? so you need to do interpretation what it means really to contribute to peace and if you look at the the awards there's a big spread of winners early october every year at 11 o 'clock the door opens and it is announced who wins the peace prize and i am waiting as anxiously as everybody else at 11 i have no information no influence and i've always tried to explain to people because we get these questions from many who ask you know how is this happening and i'm i'm saying that trying to influence this by working the political channel may work quite the other way around, because my impression is that whoever is in that committee is very, you know, focused on integrity.

7:42I think Donald Trump knows, because I've told him many times, I've told his, the people around him. And then I, again, I will not add anything. He keeps saying this, and he has to take responsibility. It's not true. You couldn't pick up the phone, call the committee and say, listen, do me a favor, nominate the president of the United States. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. But you know, the nominations come in. I think there are many nominations. And I've also commented that there are bigger problems in the world than having world leaders who would like to work for world peace and to be awarded the prize.

8:15But you know, this boils down to the thing that it is politically decided by Norway. So Norway or by me, prime minister, both are wrong. And I think he knows. Okay, let's move on, because I almost feel I should apologize for having to ask you those questions. But there we go. That's the world that we live in. I'd like to get your reaction to what happened over Greenland this week and how it unfolded. Well, I think, you know, let's start at the outset, you know, for a country to make claim of another country's land, it doesn't belong to the age we live in. And an ally in NATO to say that I just need and I want a piece of your land, same category.

8:55And that's why I think, first of all, issues between the United States and Greenland belongs inside the framework of discussion between the Kingdom of Denmark and the United States. And that should go in that channel. And we now know there is a dialogue between Secretary Rubio and the Danish foreign minister. Any issue between these two countries should be handled there. But what we heard yesterday from President Trump is that NATO should do us this favor, hand us Greenland, but this has not been practiced and it has not been acceptable for, I would almost say, centuries, that you deal with territory in that way.

9:29So I think we have seen over the last couple of days, weeks, that Europe has been very firm and robust on this, to say here there are principles, and to support the Danish position that anything concerning the Kingdom of Denmark and Greenland has to be decided by the kingdom of Denmark, people in Greenland and in Denmark. And they've had our support for that. And then, you know, over the weekend when he announced he would impose tariffs on eight NATO allies who had sent a few military people to Greenland to plan future exercises inside the framework of NATO. That is also unacceptable. You know, just thinking that me sending two officers to another Nordic country to plan for future exercises would result in punishment from the United States.

10:23So he stepped down from that yesterday. I think that is was high time. Talk a little bit more about that step down. I'm interested in how it happened. I kind of cover Washington and my understanding is that Republican senators were in contact with the White House to say there was no Republican support for this operation. We saw the markets and the market reaction to the prospect of some sort of seizure of Greenland, however that was going to work out. American companies didn't want this to happen. But talk about the European end. Give me some sort of sense of the tick tock of how Europe you said Europe was firm.

10:59How exactly? Because I'm imagining this was more than just words saying these are principles. Did Europe present any retaliatory measures? What were the steps that Europe took to push back against the United States? Two steps here. First, you know, very clear on the issue of seizing land from another country, even opening up for using military power to do so. Very clear on that. So that was, you know, in recent weeks. Then over the weekend when the threat of tariff came, you know, and this comes half a year after there was a conclusion between the United States and Europe on tariffs that settled that issue.

11:42I think that led to the reaction that, you know, in the coming days, the European Union, UK and Norway would have to consider, you know, what will be our response if that happens. So that was in itself, you know, pointing towards some kind of escalation. And markets don't like that. And Marcus reacted. And I have the same impression than you have, Cathy, that on the American side, there was also pushback, both on this Greenland project, which I see is not a favored issue in public opinion in the US, not among decision makers in business industry. so both from industry and from the political environment i think that reaction came so the speech we heard again he spent a lot of time on wanting greenland but he made the reference that he would not use military force i think that was even that it is a theme is a special thing but you know he made that clear and then in in the aftermath he had a discussion with the secretary general of nato mark rutter who was working to channel the discussion about security in the Arctic into the right channels of how NATO works, because NATO should help for security in all of NATO territory.

12:51And I worked on this for 20 years as a Norwegian politician, former foreign minister. It belongs in the NATO framework. And as a part of that discussion, Trump made it clear that he would let in the tweet that he would drop these tariffs. Sorry to push you on this, but did European countries at any stage say to Donald Trump or Donald Trump's representatives, listen, if you go ahead with this, this is what we plan to do, whether it's supply chains, whether it's retaliatory tariffs, whether it's pharma, whether it's whatever it is. You know, Norway is not member of the European Union, but you know, the European Union is the main actor here because he was then hitting six, seven countries of the European Union and not the others, but they have a common commercial policy.

13:34So Europe would react as Europe. And, you know, Norway and the UK, I think we would look very attentively to what the European Union would do. And that was a question about, you know, how would we response in retaliation? And Europe has prepared also, you know, pretty hefty measures to defend its economic security where that to be needed. So there was also indications that that would be a theme. And, you know, European leaders are meeting this evening in the European Council. Now, that issue is off the table. But I think, you know, the message that they were ready to take measures, I think sent signals into the marketplace here at Davos, where the key economic operators are side by side.

14:16And I guess the White House may have picked up some of that. The kind of perception amongst Americans that I speak to, and I spoke to a senator about this just yesterday, was that Europe had kind of found its spine in a way that it hadn't done in the first year of the Trump administration because of this crisis. I think, you know, in politics, you have to find the right tone to get your message through. And you talk differently at different phases in life. But when you represent the government, you have to find the right level when you communicate to get your message through. Europe is a group of countries.

14:51They have been better at coordinating their positions on main issues. And although Norway is not a member of the European Union, we are closely integrated in the European market. And what we've seen over Ukraine, for example, is a remarkable unity of purpose among European states and also with the UK outside the EU, but also very coordinated on this position. So finding its spine, perhaps. And I think Europe has been robust and consistent, and that is good. I do want to get to Ukraine and Russia in a second, I promise you. You said that this crisis has been taken off the table as European leaders are meeting in Brussels.

15:28Has it really? Yes, the issue of Greenland for the moment seems to be less fever pitch. Who knows what happens later, but it does seem that Greenland is resolved. But has something more fundamental shifted in the relationship, as Mark Carney suggested, as Ursula von der Leyen suggested, in the relationship between Europe and America because of what Donald Trump did? Because he went as he does, he asks for 100 percent and then he settles at 50 percent. In asking for 100 percent, has he fractured something? Has he risked something in the relationship that it's going to be hard to repair? Well, many issues here.

16:08I mean, first of all, I don't think this is off the table. I think we can say that the tariffs have been taken off the table, but, you know, beware, they can be put back. We've seen that. So that has to be followed. I think the issue about using military power was clearly stated. He would not do that. I think that is obvious, should be that way, but, you know, it could be followed. But the whole idea of making a claim on green and it's still there. So that has to be followed very carefully. and I've been open to say I think this is damaging trust across the Atlantic and I think the whole MAGA approach to talking about Europe started with Vice President Vance it's not exactly complimentary about Europe it's what we've heard you know since Vance spoke in Munich in February last year that Europe is a bad place and everything is defined in that way so this is part of I think of a political message coming out of that political family However, when you talk to business here, the integration and the competition and what happens in the marketplace with AI, with new energy and a number of areas, things go on.

17:15And if you look at the security side of it, speaking for Norway, in the north of Norway, we neighbor Russia. We have the biggest arsenal of nuclear weapons 100 kilometers from our border. so we track and monitor this as part of our responsibility of being ally with the u.s and with nato we work alongside the u.s very very closely and that goes on and if anything during this last year it has been deepened so last summit at nato in the hague back in july was a remarkable good summit for nato trump was there it was moving ahead we are investing more in defense from the European side, high time should be done.

17:55This northern command for the Nordic countries and the UK is located in Norfolk, Virginia. It's being built in record short time. It's operational, it's working. So these are two different layers, I would say. So I still believe that that alliance has so much mutual benefit in it, that it is still strong. Trump's story about NATO giving nothing to the US, US giving everything to NATO is simply not true. Because, I mean, the only time Article 5 had been evoked was 9-11. And in the daily operations, you know, collaborating with about 30 European states gives the US remarkable strength. And I think, you know, when I talk to US commanders, military senators, and, you know, broader range of politicians, they see this.

18:48but it's not exactly the message you got from Trump. No, no. I mean, I think everyone breathed a sigh of relief that Greenland issue was off the table but he was so rude and scathing about Europe and I guess a question sort of specifically on Norway because you have increased your commitment to defence spending. I think you've more than doubled your commitment to defence spending in the last couple of years. You're now at, I think, a commitment of 3.3 % for 2025, am I right? Something around that, which is a big step up from where you were which was something like 1.4 % just a couple of years ago.

19:20So in a way, has Donald Trump done Europe a favor, done Norway a favor in saying, look, something I've been thinking for years, Europe can't carry on calling 911 America every time there's an emergency and say, come to our rescue. Barack Obama said that, but it took Donald Trump with his bellicosity, the kind of tone he used here in Davos to actually, and with even maybe the threats in Greenland, to give a sense of urgency that European leaders like yourself need in order to go to their populations and say, sorry, guys, we may have to cut other things that you like us spending money on in order to boost our own defense spending.

20:02Well, I think you sum it up well. And this started before Trump. You know, there have been presidents as long as I've been in politics who have been saying that Europe has to scale up. But Trump is the only one that actually got Europe to pay attention. And if you talk to Jens Stoltberg, who was Secretary General of NATO, and who is now my finance minister, he would confirm that, you know, during Trump won, this came on the table in pretty unorthodox way. So call that the wake up call. And I give credit to President Trump for that. The challenge now is that that money should be spent wisely. It should be spent in a coordinated way about what it takes to enhance European security.

20:38And obviously, I can understand from the US side, they are focusing gradually more on Asia. And Europe, with its competence state, should take more responsibility, as we do. If you look at the funding of supporting Ukraine, the US has almost come to zero, and it is now mainly European. And if you look at Europe, it is mainly Northern European. And at the same time, we are scaling up our defense. You know, I'm about to implement the long-term defense plan, where we basically revamp the entire defense system. And we do that as we take all these lessons coming in from the war in Ukraine to make a relevant defense and do it in an integrative way.

21:16So for my country, it is a question of close integration with the Nordic countries, especially Finland and Sweden in the north, a strategic partnership with the UK across the North Sea, and a strategic partnership with France, Germany, and Poland, and the Nordic states. So this is happening. And how much political pressure are you under from your own population when you tell them that you're going to commit more of the Norwegian budget to defense spending, which presumably means less of it to other things that they would like you to spend on. Correct. And that's why, you know, I'm happy and I'm a bit proud that we've been able to bring all parties in parliament behind this plan, which is scaling up investment substantially, knowing that that will be, you know, what I say, less more to other sectors.

22:00It doesn't mean that we have to cut in healthcare, but you know, had we had that money available, we could add more in healthcare or more in education. So I think it's clearly understood now that in this situation, which I think is the most complex, serious situation since the Second World War in security terms, we have to invest more in our defense, but also in our preparedness at home. So, you know, when are we in the security crisis? You can talk about war and peace, But, you know, in modern times, if you lose electricity, if your data systems are knocked out, if things start to stop to work or if you have with climate change, extreme weather knocking out daily life.

22:40Investing in defense is expensive, but we've done it before. So it is logistically quite known. But investing in preparedness is really hearts and minds of people. You know, you have to understand that you should have some extra in your household if something happens. And in your local community and with your local business and with your civil society, you have to be more prepared and more organized. And you even have to exercise what you do if something extreme happens. Yeah, and look, Norway's in a luckier position than many other European countries because you do have a healthy fiscal situation, obviously.

23:13I was up in Bergen. We met last November at a very interesting conference in Bergen. And I remember listening to figures from the military, figures from your energy sector. And I think I asked you at the end of that day whether Norway was on a war footing, because really what I heard that day was a country that was looking at these threats from Russia. How much pressure is Norway under from Russia already? I think there was a dam that was taken over last summer for a few hours. And the suspicion is that this was taken over by Russian operatives for a few hours. How much pressure is your country already under in ways that we might not see from the threat of Russia?

23:52Well, let's start with the fact that we neighbor Russia. We have 200 kilometers common border. Finland has 1300 kilometers. And, you know, Russia has many neighbors, but not necessarily one policy for all neighbors. And Norway has been at peace with Russia for a thousand years. You know, we're probably the only neighbor with whom they have not been at war. And we don't see in our outlook that there is an emerging military threat directly against Norway from Russia. But we are under whatever. I'm glad to hear it. Yeah. But, you know, what you experienced visiting Norway was that we are more under a kind of a hybrid threat.

24:31And we are more in kind of an intelligence operation pressure as many countries in Europe. So what you refer to with this dam, it wasn't taken over. But, you know, most advanced services in a country like mine is run by data, is run by advanced technology. And if some of that is hacked or attacked, you become vulnerable. So that's what I mean. You really have to go through all that preparedness work to be more consistent. And then, you know, coming back to the U.S., it is good for us that we have close collaboration with the U.S. in the north, with intelligence, with defense capabilities, with surveillance of vast maritime areas.

25:11But this is also good for the US. Because as I've told Donald Trump, the nuclear arsenal on the Russian side is basically not a threat against Norway. It's a threat against the US. And the fact that we monitor and follow that enhances US security. Thus, the claim that NATO gives nothing back to the US is not right, because this is part of what we do as NATO allies. Let's talk about Ukraine. we have a few minutes left. You mentioned that America is no longer really supplying any funding to Ukraine, but they are still supplying intelligence. And it's very useful to the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians have not been able to wean themselves off the dependence that they have on that American intelligence is my understanding.

25:53Scott Besant, the Treasury Secretary, over the course of last weekend, made a kind of veiled threat to Europe that they would pull back lack their support on Ukraine if Europe didn't give them what they want on Greenland. The Greenland issue may be off the table for the moment, but how confident are you that America will continue with the level of support it has at the moment on Ukraine? Because if Vladimir Putin thinks for a moment that the Western support, including the American support and this intelligence support, is going to be pulled out. It gives him an enormous amount of impetus to carry on the war even longer and keep pushing against Kiev.

26:36I mean, it seems to me that the only hope Ukraine has is if Putin believes that the Western support is solid. Are you confident that the Western support, the American support is solid? I think we've found a quite strong collaboration here between what we call the coalition of the willing on the European side and the US. And I think, you know if you were Ukrainian if I were Ukrainian politician I would know that to get this done you need the US and I've given credit to President Trump that you know when he came in he said this war has to stop there has to be talks with Russia we have to engage them although difficult and the fact that you know that is still happening is good and important so what we have now is to work which we was really on the steady process in the late part of last year early part of this year with security guarantees.