159. The Royal Arrest: Why Trump's Epstein Problem Won't Go Away

16:27Katty Kay:And so how do we know that these files don't go on the public record in a UK court? And some of that is like really damaging to President Trump. The other thing he's doing, which I would tell him to stop doing, is he's going after Mandelson. You see all these attacks on former Ambassador Mandelson. I'd be like, hey, you know, you're trying to score points against Stormer and Labour, and you're trying to help your buddy, Nigel Farage. I get that. But you're keeping the drama of Epstein in everybody's crosshairs, if you will, caddy. And then, you know, what about Ghislaine Maxwell? What about all of the things that are going on in that dynamic?

17:06Katty Kay:Okay. She's in a low security prison now. She's literally out there saying, I've got goods that are going to exonerate Donald Trump, i.e., please pardon me. I don't know. Maybe his advisors aren't thinking this thing through or there's something going wrong in the equation where this could blow back on Trump. And again, three, four, five Republicans get a spine, then he's in trouble. You see what I mean? I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene left and Massey's the only one that's standing up to him, but you get three or four of them, then he's in trouble.

17:39Anthony Scaramucci:You can't imagine what kind of security Massey now has to have to withstand all the threats he must be getting from Trump supporters, which he has, by the way, spoken about. One of the things that's happened here is that the accountability has been much more in the private sector than it has been around any government officials or elected officials or even some of the top people that were with Epstein. So you have had people, you've had the chairman of Paul Weiss, Brad Karp has stepped down. You've had Larry Summers, of course, stepped down from his positions. This just today, the news came that Bill Gates has pulled out of a keynote speech at an AI summit in India because of all the Epstein stuff.

18:22Anthony Scaramucci:Thomas Pritzker has retired as the head of Hyatt Hotels. So you've had government accountability, but because none of those people are being deposed in a court of law, they're not spilling any beans. They're just quitting, right? That keeps them quiet. So I guess they don't present much of a threat to Donald Trump unless they chose to came out and say something.

18:45Katty Kay:Can I throw like a wild card in there? Okay, because I'm now acting as Ghislaine Maxwell's defense attorney. Oh, golly, poor you. She has a First Amendment right to free speech. And so I'm now going to play former Prince Andrew's defense attorney and Ghislaine Maxwell's. Hello. Hey, we would like Ghislaine to testify here in Great Britain. We're going to do it over Zoom. And we're going to get her to swear on the Bible that it's nothing but the truth. Oh, that's wonderful. Let me call Todd Blanche. Hey, Toddy, how are you? Ghislaine is going to testify by Zoom in the British court. So in other words, if I am the defense attorney for Ghislaine Maxwell, I'm going to put pressure on Blanche and the DOJ to get my client pardoned.

19:35Katty Kay:And so then my client can say, you know, plead the fifth or say, hey, I'm not available for this testimony. But she has a First Amendment right to provide testimony in that court case, either for or against Andrew. So what's your reaction to that? Just throwing that out there. I mean, this is stuff that they've got to be thinking about that they're probably not thinking about right now.

19:58Anthony Scaramucci:Yeah, I think they would rather Ghislaine Maxwell not say very much. That's why they moved her from her high security prison that she was in to what's known as the prison summer camp down in Texas after Todd Blanchard been down there to talk to her. So I think it is an element of, you know, buying her silence and her cooperation. But one question you said it's baked in about Donald Trump. And I think you're right. And a lot of people think, oh, well, he was the Access Hollywood tape. We know what Donald Trump is. But I wonder if it's even more than that, that in 2024, he kind of ran as a sort of backlash against accountability, right, around gender or race.

20:46Anthony Scaramucci:He ran against the whole Me Too, Black Lives Matter movement, and a kind of accountability almost became woke. It's all kind of for wusses. So I wonder whether actually Donald Trump's supporters, in the same way that he probably will never hold his supporters accountable, and he released all of the January the 6th people who were in prison who'd had the riot up on Capitol Hill, they don't really want him or expect him to be held accountable. They don't need him to be held accountable, even if it came out, even if what Congressman Subramanian is looking for, you know, to see if there is a smoking gun around Donald Trump, that some kind of crime was committed.

21:24Anthony Scaramucci:Maybe Donald Trump supporters never want him to be held accountable. Maybe they don't really want this stuff to come out either.

21:30Katty Kay:Yeah, well, of course they don't. I mean, they want it to go away.

21:33Anthony Scaramucci:That's why, you know, they even though they were the ones that pushed for it, even they were the ones that were pushing for it for so long.

21:38Katty Kay:That's what Trump does to you. When you and I first met, I said, Donald Trump moves the goalposts on everybody. It's a loyalty test. It's forever a loyalty test. Listen to me. I am such a narcissist. Caddy, I'm going to say one thing and I want your allegiance to it. Oh, you have? Yeah. Okay. Now I'm going to say a different thing. Totally juxtaposed to that thing, but I still need your allegiance, Caddy. Oh, no, no. Now I'm going to move it again. OK, so he's always moving the goalposts on supporters, family members, friends, cabinet members. That's what he does, because he needs to prove to everybody, or at least in his own febrile mind, that he's numero uno and that he can do anything and he can get away with anything.

22:26Katty Kay:And that's what's going on here. But I will say this because I think this is tied into the second part of this conversation. because the Congress is now saying, wow, this is really bad for us. We're going to likely contain this damage. But you're out there saying you're going to invade Greenland. You're now moving ships to Iran. You're going to really hurt us. OK, we'll leave it there on that topic, Adi. We're going to go to a break now. When we come back, we'll talk about the White House deputies heading up to the Capitol to talk to the congressional leaders and their campaign strategists on the midterm elections.

23:02Katty Kay:Hello everybody and welcome to The Book Club, a new podcast from Goalhanger, hosted by me, Dominic Sandbrook.

23:10Anthony Scaramucci:And me, Tabitha Syrod. As some of you may know, I've been Dominic's producer on The Rest is History and we even did a mini-series last year about all things books.

23:19Katty Kay:And since we enjoyed that so much, we have decided to roll it out as its own show. It'll be coming out every Tuesday. We'll be doing a different book each time and digging into all the stories behind them.

23:31Anthony Scaramucci:And we are going to be talking about the historical contexts behind some of the greatest and most famous books of all time. We're going to be digging into the remarkable people behind them, the unexpected stories behind the stories, and also unravelling the plot of each book a bit and delving into the depths of the story.

23:49Katty Kay:Now you don't have to have read the books to listen to the show, but we hope that by the end of each episode, you will be able to pretend to people that you've read them. That is the key thing. And either way, whether you read them or not we hope that you'll learn lots of fascinating facts you'll do lots of great stories and maybe

24:04Anthony Scaramucci:tabby the odd laugh we will be looking at thrilling gothic bodice rippers like weathering heights and frankenstein as well as iconic stories like the great gatsby or little women and then also some more modern stuff so game of thrones normal people the hunger games hamlet all manner of exciting stories.

24:25Katty Kay:So please join us on our journey into all things books, wherever you get your podcasts, just search for The Book Club every Tuesday, and hopefully we will see you there.

24:43Katty Kay:This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames. Now it's Mother's Day coming up and Aura Frames is perfect for the mum who says she doesn't need anything.

24:52Anthony Scaramucci:Yeah, and mums are always tricky to shop for.

24:55Katty Kay:Every year, the fallback gifts, flowers, books, random gadgets, you know, come on, they end up in the garbage. You know that and I know that, but not an AuraFrame. AuraFrame is irreplaceable.

25:06Anthony Scaramucci:And what I love is that you can preload it, right, Anthony, with photos, you can personalize it. So even if your mom isn't great at tech, you can make it easy for her.

25:14Katty Kay:That's right, Katya. You can preload before it ships, add a personal message, share photos instantly. AuraFrames, the perfect gift every time.

25:22Anthony Scaramucci:For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.co.uk to get£35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames. That's the one I have. Named the top frame by The Independent by using promo code POLITICSUS at checkout.

25:38Katty Kay:That's A-U-R-A frames.co.uk, promo code POLITICSUS. This deal is exclusive to listeners, so order yours now to get it in time for Mother's Day. Don't forget to add Politics U.S. at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. I'm R.J. Decker, a private investigator uncovering the sunshine state's darkest secrets. Tuesdays, it's the premiere of ABC's hottest new crime show. R.J. freaking Decker as I live and breathe. He's a private eye. It's not a standard murder. It's someone bigger. And a public mass.

26:11Anthony Scaramucci:Trying to get some back to prison today?

26:13Katty Kay:You go to prison one time and suddenly it's all the jokes. R.J. Decker, series premiere. Tuesdays on ABC and stream on Hulu.

26:29Katty Kay:Welcome back to the Restless Politics U.S. Katty, tell us about this strategy meeting that took place.

26:35Anthony Scaramucci:The White House this week has been trying to reassure members of Congress, Republican members of Congress, that, yes, they get the message. they do actually need to help them try and win in the midterms and that they have a plan for how they're going to do that and it was interesting they held um the white house's top political team with a whole bunch of cabinet members scott besant was there howard lutnick was there kennedy was there sean duffy the transport secretary was there susie wiles was there trump's pollster tony fabrizio was there his political advisor james blair was there And a whole bunch of members of Congress, Republican members of Congress, had this meeting on Capitol Hill at the Capitol Hill Club.

27:21Anthony Scaramucci:I think they wanted this to leak out because they didn't do it in a very private room. The Capitol Hill Club, everyone knows what's going on there. And it was the White House's bid, I think, to reassure Republican members of Congress that, yes, we are focused on your issues. We understand that your constituents are very focused on affordability, prices, the economy. They want us to keep coming back to those issues. They want us to be driven by the data. We just happen to have a president. I'm sorry, guys, we have a president who is bored of the issue of affordability, and he's going to talk about Iran or Greenland or anything else apart from the issues that your constituents are particularly interested in.

28:01Anthony Scaramucci:I thought it was interesting that the White House even felt they had to have that meeting, that I suspect you're right. Members of Congress are starting. Republican members of Congress are feeling a little angsty, right? They can see the polls. They can see the unpopularity of the president. And it used to be that all politics is local. Now all politics is national. And they need to know from the White House that the White House has a plan. I'm just not sure that whatever Susie Wiles presents to them as a plan or James Blair earnestly presents to them as a plan with lots of polls from Tony Fabrizio, Donald Trump's not very manageable.

28:34Anthony Scaramucci:Is he going to stay on message? Is he going to spend the next 10 months campaigning on the issue of affordability and prices? That didn't last very long, did it? My memory was that we were meant to be doing that, but it didn't seem to have lasted very long. More fun to take Greenland.

28:46Katty Kay:There's a couple of things here, though. And so the first one is he could be a political liability going in the midterms. His people, his staff are saying, and I'm using their words, he's an ungovernable campaign asset. Right. That's what his staff is saying. And the Congress knows that. And so I guess what would have to happen, Caddy, for them to go from protection mode on him to attack mode on him? Remember, he is a waning political asset. So what would have to happen? Go ahead. Give me your analysis.

29:27Anthony Scaramucci:I think the sky would have to fall on our heads at this point. I mean, we have been waiting for over a decade now to see Republicans find a reason to decide that they're going to stand up to Donald Trump. And apart from Thomas Massey, who mentioned earlier, and the old Republican senator, they just don't seem to do it. I had a really good conversation with a Republican strategist who's pretty plugged in, has spent a lot of time with Trump and is pretty plugged into MAGA world. And what he said is that until this primary season, remember that all of these members of Congress are in the primaries before they get to run in the general election in November.

30:06Anthony Scaramucci:And while they're in the primary season, they're not going to say anything about Donald Trump. They're going to get themselves locked in step with Donald Trump because they're terrified of Donald Trump weighing in on their primary and them not even getting a chance to run. So you're not going to hear any of them distance themselves from Donald Trump at least until June when the primary season is over. But I wonder even then, you know, the mystery of the kind of enduring mystery of this president ever since he kind of won the nomination back in 2016 and won the election back in 2016 has been the way that he controls his party.

30:47Anthony Scaramucci:I don't. Yes, some of them peel away. We've seen some of them peeling away over Epstein. We saw some of them peel away over Greenland. but I don't see a big rush for the exits. Do you?

31:03Katty Kay:I don't, but let me tell you the problems and then I'll make a prediction on this program. So number one, Trump has a$300 million war trust for these congressional midterms. He's got 437 million overall that he's raised for different issues, America first, et cetera. So he's done something very interesting that future presidents will do. They will continue to fundraise in their lame duck years. Obama didn't do it and George W. Bush didn't do it, but Trump did it. And it's an interesting thing. You have to give him credit for that because he has some political power because of the money. Right.

31:38Katty Kay:But here's the thing. They're gaslighting people. I'm going to go to Marjorie Taylor Greene, who said, and I'm going to quote from her. she said if you had put America first from the start instead of your rich donor class and foreign policy you wouldn't have to strategize on how to gaslight Americans caddy k and all of a sudden she's the truth teller okay and she is basically their most vocal what I would describe as MAGA loyalist okay so it's interesting that her and Massey see themselves as MAGA loyalists which is different from being a Trump loyalist, right? But I just want to make this point to you.

32:15Katty Kay:I think they're going to get slayed in the midterms. And I think they're going to turn on him after a catastrophic midterm loss. Moreover, you know, if there's an economic collapse, which is undeniable and attributable to the president's policies, they're also going to turn on him, but they're not going to turn on him before the midterms.

32:37Anthony Scaramucci:You think they would turn on him if there's a big midterm loss and i guess you're putting that at like 30 to 50 seats right that the republicans lose a big a big loss they turn on donald trump because they feel he's a lame duck and because whoever is going to take over from donald trump let's say it's jd vance they know that that person doesn't have the same kind of fear factor that trump seems to have over his party that those members of congress aren't turning on him because they're afraid of him and I guess that what they wouldn't be afraid of whoever was Trump's successor.

33:13Katty Kay:Yeah I think yes and I agree and I think that that's accurate but just hear me out for a second this is a broader macro sentiment and you may agree with it or not but I feel like we are in a throw the bums out moment in America meaning if you went to the average American and said you could jettison every Democrat in the Congress and you could jettison every Republican in the Congress and you could start anew and you could pick the local baker or you could pick the local librarian to go into the Congress for you, I would say most Americans would say, yeah, we would want that. So we're in a throw the bums out mentality.

33:49Katty Kay:And let me just go over this. The Democrats, Obama 2016, it flips to the Republicans. Trump gets it. Then Trump loses it. It flips back to the Democrats. And then the Democrats lose it if it flips back to Trump and the GOP, I think the next flip is back to the Democrats, meaning in the last several elections, the Americans are like, throw the bums out. If you're in, we want you out. Yeah, whoever it is, there's no loyalty.

34:18Anthony Scaramucci:Yeah, exactly. If you're in, you're the problem.

34:20Katty Kay:And by the way, let me stipulate, Katty, they would like to throw them all out. Okay. I mean, it wouldn't just be the Democrats or the Republicans on that given day. It'd be all of them. And so there's the vulnerability for the current crop of GOP. Like, again, if I was J.D. Vance, assuming he gets the nomination, I still predict he won't. But, you know, the odds are that he will because most every vice president has gotten the nomination. Richard Nixon, George Herbert Walker Bush, et cetera. You know, even Walter Mondale got it from, you know, Jimmy Carter's vice president. But I'm just saying to you, if he is sitting there thinking about the nomination, he's vulnerable.

35:01Katty Kay:He's vulnerable. He's not a popular guy, number one. Maybe he gets the nomination anyway, but he's vulnerable. And you can sit around and have a powwow about this, but it's not really going to do you any good. The bold move would be to break from Trump. They're on defense in Georgia. He won Georgia by like 24 points.

35:21Anthony Scaramucci:They have good news here because you look at the Democrats. There was a great new poll out from AP Nork poll showing that the Democrats view of the Democratic Party is super low at the moment. Seven in 10 Democrats have a positive view. I mean, it's like, you know, they don't even Democrat rank and file doesn't love their party. I think the problem Trump is in at the moment is that and this takes me back to that series that you and I are recording for our founding members on Donald Trump. Donald Trump has always had this belief that if you tell people a lie often enough, they will believe it. You know, I am the most successful businessman in the world.

36:04Anthony Scaramucci:I am the best real estate mogul in the world. I am the best playboy there has ever been. I have the biggest crowds at my inauguration that there's ever been and people will believe it. And the big difference now, a Republican pointed out to me, is that he's telling them lies about how they feel, not about how he feels. So he's not telling them Donald Trump is rich. He's telling them they are rich. And they're like, I'm not rich. I don't believe this lie you're peddling to me because I don't feel it. I feel that prices are too high. I feel the economy is bad. And I think it kind of exposes a disconnect between Trump and his supporters.

36:48Anthony Scaramucci:And because he is so desperate not to believe that people don't like him and that they don't like his policies, he's not kind of waking up to that enough. And maybe he can turn the economy around. It's a long way till November. We get all of that, all of those caveats. The election is not being held today. It's being held in whatever it is, eight months time. But I do think he's kind of got away with, he thinks, I can just tell people the economy is great and they feel rich because that has always worked for me.

37:14Katty Kay:You know, I like the role play. Okay, let's role play. Okay. I'm Senator John Cornyn. I'm waking up to prediction markets that say that there's a 40 % chance now up from 20%. There's a 40 % chance that the Democrats take the Senate. I wasn't in a vulnerable position. I'm a, you know, incumbent senator from a red state, but I've got a challenger nipping at me now, and I'm now calling you, you're my campaign strategist, and I say, hey, Donald Trump has not approved a plan, a spending plan, for the$300 million. Why do you think he hasn't approved that spending plan, and am I, here in the great state of Texas, going to receive any of that money from Donald Trump?

38:02Katty Kay:And you say what?

38:03Anthony Scaramucci:I say Donald Trump is probably going to put his support behind your challenger, who is a MAGA devotee, although he's been smeared in a scandal, Ken Paxton, including allegations of bribery that led to him being impeached by the Texas State House in 2023. All-round not particularly popular guy, but Ken Paxton loves Donald Trump, And Donald Trump thinks that John Cornyn has opposed him one too many times. And as we are seeing with New York and as we are seeing with D.C., Donald Trump is not above using budgets as weapons against people who have opposed him. So I suspect that's what's going to happen in Texas.

38:46Anthony Scaramucci:I mean, Texas, we should have a longer conversation about Texas at some point because it is a super interesting Senate race that has just kicked off this week. Early voting started in the primaries in that Senate race. And on the Republican side, you've got Cornyn, who is a conservative Republican, just not as MAGA as Donald Trump would like him to be, being challenged by Ken Paxton, who's probably going to win for the Republican as the Republican nominee for the Senate seat.

39:12Katty Kay:Let me interrupt, Katty, because you're my campaign strategist and I'm Senator Cornyn. And I've been on the public record saying that if Ken Paxton is at the top of the ticket, we're going to have an election day massacre. You mean to tell me that Donald Trump doesn't see that, Katty K? And you're telling me he's not going to help me, Katty K?

39:30Anthony Scaramucci:No, he's not going to help you, Senator Cornyn, because you've opposed him one too many times. He thinks that a MAGA candidate can be elected because, you know what? He'll endorse Ken Paxton. he'll put his weight behind Ken Paxton and he is convinced that whatever Donald Trump wants the MAGA faithful will vote for but I spoke to somebody who's a political scientist down in Texas this week who told me that even his father who is a Trump supporter and loves Donald Trump will not vote for Ken Paxton I think I think Donald Trump's reading I think he's reading the Republican race

40:04Katty Kay:all wrong down in Texas okay so I'm bringing this up for a specific reason I think this was a very big part of that strategy session. I think that they've gone to Trump's staff and said, this SOB is uncontrollable, but he's got to support Cornyn. If he doesn't support Cornyn, there's going to be a cascade effect here that's going to be very, very damaging, not just in the Senate, but also in all of these down races and all these congressional races in Texas. And Texas is not, due to demography and demographic changes, is not as red as it once was, Caddy. And so I'm just bringing this up because this is an example of what the congressional leaders and their political strategists are trying to do with the White House.

40:50Katty Kay:But can I help these guys out? Because, see, I know the Trumpster, okay? So let me help these guys out. Forget it. And by the way, the$300 million, he's not giving it to you. Look, I'm scratching my nose for you people on YouTube, okay? He's not going to give it to you, okay? Can I tell you why he's not going to give it to you? Because he doesn't give a shit about you. He cares about Donald Trump. And that money he's looking at, he's saying, hey, I may be able to use that money to fly around in. I may have to renovate Mar-a-Lago and I can figure out a way to get that money shoveled into some other account to help me with that.

41:22Katty Kay:And I guarantee as we're sitting here, there will be minimal amounts of that money used in these races. Yeah, there'll be ceremonial amounts. If he goes full jihad and decides to back Paxton, will he send him a$5 million check? sure, but this guy is not going to help you. He wants you to lose. He wants you to be nobodies after he leaves, which is a sign of his narcissistic greatness in his freebrile old man's mind. And so those are the facts, Caddy. So just let these guys know you're barking up the wrong tree, fellas. So keep it up.

42:01Anthony Scaramucci:Okay. That's all we have time for this week. But if you would like more, you can get it on our founding members episode where we are joined by a very special visitor who had a question about Jeffrey Epstein that you had a chance to answer. Anthony, I'm going to leave it there. That's called a cliffhanger.

42:18Katty Kay:I mean, it's another great sales pitch by Caddy. Please become a founding member and go to the rest of politics, us.com. It's a lot of fun on those programs and we'll see you guys next week. Thanks again.

42:36Anthony Scaramucci:Rinse knows that greatness takes time, but so does laundry. So Rinse will take your laundry and hand-deliver it to your door, expertly cleaned. And you can take the time pursuing your passions. Time once spent sorting and waiting, folding and queuing, now spent challenging and innovating and pushing your way to greatness. So pick up the Irish flute or those calligraphy pens or that daunting Beef Wellington recipe card and leave the laundry to us. Rinse. It's time to be great. We'll see you next time.