199. White House Shouting Match: Is Trump Sabotaging His Own Party?

17:57Anthony Scaramucci:no one's even - There were only six people in one of those meetings that they report on around Epstein. There were only six people. So it's one of those six people.

18:05Katty Kay:No one's saying it didn't happen. Even Trump, when he was interviewed by them.

18:09Anthony Scaramucci:No, no one is saying it didn't happen. So interesting.

18:12Katty Kay:Even Trump, when he was interviewed in March of 2026 for the book, didn't say it didn't happen. I'm going to say four things from the book quickly. Number one, the thing that I got out of the book, this is instinct over information. This is an instinct over information presidency, decision making of one he's not listening to you when you're talking so whatever's the last thing in his head he's likely going to do which is consistent with what we learned about him in the first term number two uh he hates bb netanyahu hates him i think it's very clear to me uh and they were fighting if you remember at the end of the first term they did a little bit of a buddy buddy, but the book really reports how Trump really browbeat him into submission to get the 20 living hostages out of Gaza.

19:04Katty Kay:The third thing, which I think should scare everybody that loves this republic, loves this sort of republic democracy, is the pardon perimeter. He has said 200 feet. He has said 250 feet. He's going to pardon everybody. Okay. And that is legitimately the most nutso thing as one of his senior aides said, but it's totally on brand. Last thing is Stephen Miller. Stephen Miller for me, I work with him. You and I did a special on him, but the real special was in this book. If you read this book, you will learn about this enigmatic figure, Stephen Miller, who is a fashion queen, Katty Kay. We learn about this in his book.

19:51Katty Kay:He loves fashion, apparently, this man. He's also a superstitious guy, and he prides himself with the idea that he's been with Trump for the entire 11-year run, more or less, and certainly through the idea. He's never been on the wrong side of Trump. I find that fascinating. I think it's very hard to always be in that position. So he came across to me, I mean, he's a mean, he's an evil guy, he's a superficial jerk off, all those things are evident. But the thing that came across to me was the calculation. This sort of Manichaean, you know, court-like calculation of Stephen Miller, I found unbelievably revolting.

20:35Katty Kay:So anyway, those are some of my thoughts on the book, but I applaud Maggie and Jonathan.

20:40Anthony Scaramucci:They've done an extraordinary job.

20:41Katty Kay:And I can hear Jonathan Swan's Australian laugh right now in my eardrum as he's typing out some of this shit that he was listening to coming out of Trump's mouth.

20:52Anthony Scaramucci:The Stephen Miller details about how Miller came back in in the second term. And again, that superstition thing, he wanted the same office that he'd had in the first term because he felt that would kind of give him good luck and allow him to stay in the good graces. How in the first term he'd had a kind of comb over, but he's quite vain. If you have not looked at Stephen Miller, take a quick look at the photographs, guys. You may be surprised by this. As you say, he's a fashionista, but he decided that actually he was better off shaving off all his head because he didn't like the look of the comb over.

21:22Anthony Scaramucci:It's that kind of detail that makes this such a compelling book and such a compelling chronicle. I'm going to add a couple of other things. I thought the stuff about pardons was fascinating, but what was particularly interesting was how they describe how the president feels after issuing a pardon. It's like this gives him a high. The idea of people being totally indebted to him and him having this ability to act fast without having to consult anyone, having instant results and not being constrained in the way that pardons allows him to be. I just thought the psychological process of literally how Trump is kind of on a high after he's issued a pardon.

22:02Anthony Scaramucci:I thought that was really interesting. And then the other thing we should talk about is J.D. Vance and how right from the beginning he has questions about whether J.D. Vance is up to it and how he gets on better with Rubio. And there's a very good TikTok in the book of the Israel-Iran strikes last summer that Trump then joins because he sees that Israel is having success and he wants a piece of the success. And on the Sunday afterwards, J.D. Vance is sent out onto the Sunday shows and Trump has put out a truth social post saying, you know, the nuclear program is totally obliterated. And J.D. Vance goes out on the Sunday shows and he's seen the intelligence and he knows it wasn't totally obliterated.

22:43Anthony Scaramucci:So he doesn't use the word obliterated. And this makes Trump mad. And he says, everyone just has to copy me. You've got to use the word totally obliterated. I want to hear you say obliterated, obliterated, obliterated. and the way he berates Vance for trying to kind of actually stick to the facts. Anyway, guys, it is super, super interesting. And I do think it really gives the sense of a turning point in the presidency around the Epstein files when up until then, Trump seemed to be able to do no wrong. The Democrats were in a total crouch. He was taking over government. The whole Doge affair is fascinating and uh then of course now as we see today a very different presidency and the comparison of the beginning and even just now a year and a half in is so interesting

23:33Katty Kay:and again just to prove that i'm the more callow and shallow of the two of us when i read this stuff about steven miller and like his fashionista stuff i was literally laughing And his wife, of course, says that liberal men aren't attractive. And I just, when I heard that in my mind, Caddy Kay, I thought of my grandmother. My nana would have said, and I quote, if you marry a poodle, you make a poodle, Caddy Kay. And I'm just looking at this guy's head, which it looks like an unwrapped aging lollipop. And I'm just wondering, this guy thinks he looks good in the Brioni with the unwrapped aging lollipop head.

24:13Katty Kay:But you know what? There's somebody for everybody, Caddy Kay. And God bless him and Katie Miller. But I'm just telling you, and don't forget this, ladies and gentlemen. Can I say? You marry a poodle, you make a poodle. And man, this guy, Stephen Miller, what a character. Stephen Miller and hot are not words I would put in the same sentence.

24:35Anthony Scaramucci:Just let's know.

24:35Katty Kay:Now you're competing with me. You're competing with me for shallow behavior.

24:40Anthony Scaramucci:Have you seen him, Voldemort? Okay, we're going to take a break, come back and talk about Mamdani and the Democrats.

24:49Anthony Scaramucci:Hello, everybody. We've got some exciting news for you. That's right, Katty.

24:53Katty Kay:We are holding a summer sale on our founding member subscriptions.

24:58Anthony Scaramucci:From now until the end of August, you can get a year's membership to our show for a third off.

25:04Katty Kay:I think that's a real bargain, okay? You just need to use the code SUMMER26 when you sign up for an annual membership and you'll unlock ad-free listening. You'll get our bonus episodes and, of course, our exclusive mini-series. We've got a series covering Marco Rubio, Elon Musk, Trump's health, and so much more, including these very popular caddy, these question and answer sessions.

25:28Anthony Scaramucci:So head to TheRestIsPoliticsUS.com to claim this discount. We'd love to have you with us in the club. We'll have plenty to talk about over the next few months, so make sure you don't miss out.

25:39Katty Kay:What more could our listeners want, Caddy Kay, than this uninterrupted sound of our voices? Maybe not my voice, but certainly your voice, Caddy. Okay, we want to accompany you on all your summer travels. So go to the code SUMMER26, rest is politics, us.com, and sign up. Hi, this is Gary Lineker from Goalhangers. The rest is football. This episode is brought to you by WISE. It's only when you start moving money between currencies that you really think about the exchange rate, the fee, and what might be hidden away in the small print. Whether you're living abroad, paying someone overseas, or just trying to manage your money across borders, you want a fair exchange rate, an easy transfer, and no surprises along the way.

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27:33Anthony Scaramucci:Welcome back, everybody. In this half of the program, we're going to talk about the New York primaries. It is all heating up. It's been quite a week in New York City. And we are going to be in New York on tour in the heart of the midterm campaign this October, traveling all around North America, Anthony, but coming to your home city, which I'm super excited about. Tell your friends, tell everyone to come and see us live on stage, but it's going to be so much fun. Tickets, of course, at therestispoliticsus.com. Come and join us during our tour.

28:03Katty Kay:Fun stuff, Katty. I'm looking forward to it. We had a great show in New York a few years back before the presidential election. I think it's going to be awesome.

28:11Anthony Scaramucci:So New York's been exciting, exciting politics in New York. We had a clean sweep for Mamdani-backed candidates in New York's Democratic congressional primaries. and I think it was a contest that really exposed divisions, particularly over the issue of Israel and Gaza. There were three candidates who Mamdani had backed and a lot of people had said to Mamdani, be careful, you're fairly new in as mayor, this is a risk that you're taking because if your candidates don't do well, it's going to suggest that you don't have the power that you thought you did. They're all democratic socialists of America, DSAs as they call themselves.

28:53Anthony Scaramucci:He had three for three. He did incredibly well. I think it's not just a reflection of Mamdani's own power in the Democratic Party, but I think this is a genuine inflection on the question of Israel. We've spoken about it on the program before, but I think this primary this week in New York underlined the point that Democratic voters have flipped on Israel faster than the party's establishment has caught up to. We saw a New York Times poll, 60 % of Democratic voters now more sympathetic to Palestinians than Israelis. Only 15 % of Democrats more sympathetic to Israelis than Palestinians. And I think the big race that demonstrated this was New York's 10th district, where Dan Goldman, the sitting Democrat in Congress, was primaried by Brad Lander, who is an acolyte and supported by Zoran Mamdani, and it was explicitly fought on this issue of Israel.

29:57Anthony Scaramucci:They are both Jewish. They're both self-described liberal Zionists, but Dan Goldman was beaten for being insufficiently critical of Israel and Israel's conduct in Gaza. And Brad Landler, who was happy to come out and be much more forthright about Gaza and his support for the Palestinians and the idea of genocide being committed by the Israelis in Gaza, won handily. And I think as much as it tells us about the economics of the democratic socialists of America. I think it tells us about this shift in America on Israel. So what do you think it means for the midterms, Anthony? What do you think it tells us?

30:38Katty Kay:Well, you know, I could be really dead wrong on this because Mondani has a movement and Mondani is a lot like Trump. He's endorsing people in this particular city and his people are winning. And so Trump has done that in these primaries and Mondani's doing it. And so I would say, because I think I'm a more moderate person, if the Democrats go in this direction, country's not ready for that. The Republicans will probably win the presidency and they'll probably retake the house in 2028. But I just want to go to Lander for a second because, Caddy, I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood. I've probably been to more bar mitzvahs than baptisms in my life.

31:20Katty Kay:And I see myself as a philo-semite. I have always got along with the members of the jewish community and i you know i love all people so i'm not i'm not here you have you we have to go get one against the other but there's a big intellectual battle about anti-semitism and what it means to be an anti-semite so brad lander said in his uh acceptance speech or his congratulate self-congratulatory speech whatever you call these things he said that you if you are against the policies of the state of israel you're not an anti-Semite if you're against Zionism even though he is pro-Zionist okay believer in the Jewish state you're not an anti-Semite and then the question then is so what are the rules now I don't I guess what are the rules caddy and where are things going as it relates to Israeli support for the country in this country because when I was a kid it was a fait accompli Israel represented western values and western democracy style democracy and you protect minorities because if the Jews get hit like they did during the Holocaust, it knocks eventually into you.

32:29Katty Kay:This is an individual liberty. And it's also about inclusiveness and things like that. But where are we now, Katya? Are you allowed to be critical of Israel and not be considered anti-Semite? What are the rules now, Katya?

32:42Anthony Scaramucci:I think that is where America has come. And I think what happened in Gaza after October the 7th. But even before that, if you look carefully, actually, you could see the polls that the Democratic Party was shifting on the question of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. And that's partly because of the settlements in the West Bank and the explosion of settlements that are deemed illegal under international law. But then Gaza completely shifted things. And I think we are going to have some of that question answered by actually 2028. I was with Nate Silver, who's the great pollster this week.

33:17Anthony Scaramucci:And he was pointing out to me that, look, we've seen a decline in Gavin Newsom's numbers, and you have seen a rise in the numbers of John Ossoff, who is the senator in Georgia, who is catching some momentum at the moment. And I think if there was a real loser from this week's primary, somebody that needs to be very careful, it's Josh Shapiro. So you've got two Jewish candidates, two, a senator in Georgia, John Ossoff and Josh Shapiro, the governor of Pennsylvania. But John Ossoff has been sharply critical of the Israeli government. He has been opposed to blanket aid, military aid to Israel. He's much more careful about what can be sent to Israel and what can't be sent to Israel.

33:59Anthony Scaramucci:Josh Shapiro, who has also been critical of Benjamin Netanyahu, but is still supporting American military aid to Israel. And I think in today's Democratic Party with a younger cohort of Democrats going to the polls each year, that's no longer possible. I think Josh Shapiro is going to have a very difficult time. I think actually he's a super plausible candidate otherwise, but he's not going to be able to thread the needle on this issue because it's not even possible, I think, anymore in the Democratic Party to thread that needle. So I think that's going to answer this question. The heartbreak for me is about qualification versus the distinction of your religious orientation or your background.

34:42Katty Kay:So if you ask me point blank, and I'll probably get in trouble for this, but I think we want to be as objective as possible. And I've lived in this country for 62 years. Can a Jewish candidate get elected president? And I'm going to say no. And that's a heartbreak for me, by the way, because it really should just be based on qualifications. organizations, and somebody like Mike Bloomberg, who I had the great opportunity to work for as a volunteer, did such an amazing job. I think Shapiro is a very, very good executive. I think he would do an unbelievable job as president. But if you ask me, can Pete Buttigieg get elected in this country?

35:17Katty Kay:I think he's an incredibly talented politician. And it breaks my heart to say no, because I would probably vote for both of those guys if I had the opportunity. What do you think, Kat? Am I being too harsh, Kat?

35:27Anthony Scaramucci:No, I think you're right. And here we are on the 250th anniversary of America, still realizing that all men are not created equal in the eyes of the electorate.

35:35Katty Kay:I know we have to go, but I want to ask you one last question because Joe Scorbro, who I have to grudgingly admit through my clenched teeth, Katty, did a phenomenal job on Monday. And people, if you haven't listened to it, you really should go back and listen to it.

35:48Anthony Scaramucci:Very gracious of you, Anthony.

35:50Katty Kay:And I love Joe. He's a great guy. But Katty, and by the way, I probably need a hair product recommendation from Joe. He has good hair. But he has good flow. There's good gel in the hair. And it holds.

36:02Anthony Scaramucci:Did you notice that? And it holds, yeah.

36:03Katty Kay:I mean, you could like tug a boat with Joe Scarborough's hair. It's like a barge. Move through New York Harbor.

36:08Anthony Scaramucci:I hate to say this. He's going to fill in again. I know you're away in July. I'm very happy you and Deidre are taking a bit of time. I'm going to ask Joe to come back. So my number one question to him will be a little bit of hair product advice.

36:18Katty Kay:And he just let him know I need to get a gel recommendation. We'll pass that on. But he said something on his show, Morning Joe, that I want to address with you. He said that Netanyahu has hurt the Israeli brand in the United States. No question. Okay. So we both agree to that. Zero question. I'm going to say something else. And again, it's controversial perhaps, but I think it's important to say, in some ways, when I looked at the prime ministers of Israel as a younger person, even as a student, yes, they were the leader of Israel, but they also represented the brand of international Jewry to make.

36:55Katty Kay:And perhaps that's very unfair to even say. But when I walked through Yad Vashem, which is the Holocaust Museum, and I've been there twice now, it's one of the most heartbreaking things that you could do. There was a sign up that talked about Jews in Germany being there for 500 years. They thought they were fully assimilated. When Hitler came, 60 % of them left, 40 % of them stayed and of course many of them met a tragic ending. I think of the millions of people that were in the arts, that could have won Nobel Prizes, that could have advanced medicine and all of this stuff. The culture has been a phenomenal culture and generally a net positive for the global society.

37:36Katty Kay:But is it unfair of me to see Netanyahu as somebody that has really been a disaster for that brand. Is that unfair of me? Or is that unfair of Joe Scarborough?

37:47Anthony Scaramucci:No, I think that's very fair. And I think what you're seeing reflected in the debate that is happening in the Democratic Party at the moment is that you now have a generation of voters, and they were younger voters, younger white voters, interestingly, who are propelling these more far left candidates into nominations in New York this week, who have only ever known Benjamin Netanyahu as the Prime Minister of Israel. And they associate the state of Israel with the prime ministership of Benjamin Netanyahu and everything that he has done. And they don't like it. And I think that's what we saw play out.

38:24Anthony Scaramucci:Before we go, I have a question though for you, because I think this is what you're hearing on Fox News, and I've been listening to it since those election results in New York, is that, okay, the Democratic Party has jumped the shark, They've become a fringe party. These are the socialists. They don't represent America. But actually, if you look a little bit more closely at the primaries held this week, they were not just held in New York. There were primaries in upstate New York where they nominated an army veteran in New York's 17th congressional district, a much more moderate candidate who's going to be up against the Republican there.

39:01Anthony Scaramucci:And in South Carolina, they nominated a three-star Navy Rhea Radmall, who'd been fired by Pete Hegseth last year, also as a Democrat up in a more conservative district. And I think that is what Democrats need to keep their focus on, because Republicans will try to paint all Democrats everywhere as those New York Democratic Socialist candidates who got elected this week. And we know that the majority of electors are voters in America who are actually going to decide the midterms. They're not in New York City. They're in Iowa. They're in Pennsylvania. They're in Michigan. They're in Colorado. They're in the suburbs.

39:37Anthony Scaramucci:And I think the Democrats have to be careful that they don't focus so hard on winning liberal cities like New York while they hand Republicans the script that they need for the suburbs.

39:48Katty Kay:You are not only so right, and not only do I totally agree with that, the danger is the successes fortifies it. Because sometimes when I'm on a liberal show or liberal podcast and I'm up against one of their pundits, they say to me, oh, no, no, no, you don't understand. We got to go further and further to the left. We're searching for the purest form of communism. You know, the original form of communism we tried in San Francisco didn't work. We got to purify it. I'm looking at the guy going, all right, well, that's not going to work, you know. And maybe they're right. Maybe they're right. But I don't think so, Cady.

40:21Katty Kay:And I think Trump has a better handle on the culture than the Democrats. And I said something the other day in London, just getting back from London, and I said to a journalist, you know, you know who controls the Democratic Party? He said, who? I said, Donald Trump. Because he knows how to trigger them, Katty. He knows how to get them to fly off the handle. And they got to stop that. That would be my message anyway.

40:45Anthony Scaramucci:And I think the question then is, you know, is New York City an anomaly or is it a leading indicator of where the Democratic Party is heading?

40:52Katty Kay:I think it's both. I think the country's got so much going on in it that in certain parts of the country, it's an anomaly. But in other parts of the country, it's the pattern, the future pattern.

41:02Anthony Scaramucci:Okay, guys, we're going to leave it there. Thank you so much for joining us. We will be back next week, heading into the July the 4th holiday. Happy birthday. It's going to be Happy Birthday America week next week.

41:13Katty Kay:Happy Birthday America. Okay, we've got to get another 250 years out of this, Caddy. That's the goal.

41:18Anthony Scaramucci:Let's just get another two and a half years out of this.

41:21Katty Kay:Yeah, let's focus on the first 1 % of the next 250.

41:24Anthony Scaramucci:Keep our horizons in check. One foot ahead of the other. Take it slowly. Big breath, everybody. Big breath. We'll see you all next week. Thanks for listening, guys.

41:33Katty Kay:See you next week, guys.

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