30. Doug Emhoff: The Husband of Kamala Harris

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1:06Welcome to The Rest is Politics US with me, Katty Kay. And I'm Anthony Scaramucci. This is very exciting because today, for the first time ever, we have a guest on the program. And it is none other than the second gentleman, the husband of Vice President Kamala Harris, Doug Emhoff, who we're very pleased to say is a listener to the podcast. The role of second gentleman, of course, not normally one that propels you too much into the limelight. But since the vice president Kamala Harris took on the presidential nomination, Doug has been flying all over the United States. He gave a great speech at the Democratic National Convention that I think at the time I tweeted out was probably the most important speech of the whole event because it really introduced Americans to her as a person and as a mother figure and as a family person in a way that maybe they hadn't been seen before.

1:56and he's been going on a ton of media campaigns, holding rallies of his own, all, of course, to support his wife in her bid to be president. So the former lawyer is now the second gentleman, Doug Emhoff. Thank you for joining us. Great to be here. I've listened to your podcast and now I get to be on it. This is great. I could have told Anthony to smarten up a little bit if he'd known the jacket was coming, but we'll try that for next time. So look, you'll - I feel bad. I'm not British. What can I do? You can see what it's like. Doug, think Yiddish, dress British, right? Doug, think Yiddish, dress British, right?

2:30That's like the life hack, earn in America, live in Europe. That's the other one that they say. First of all, how do we address you? I want to make sure we get this right. You guys kind of know me, so you can go Doug, SG. Not Dougie, though. That's only for Kamala. Yeah, no, I would never be so bold. Yeah, I wasn't going there. You're spending an awful lot of time out on the campaign trail at the moment. I'm glad that we've caught you while you're back here. I guess you're in Washington. Are we speaking to you in Washington? Yeah, this is a one day in Washington. We're catching up. I've already done a couple of events.

3:02And even when we're here, still working hard. Are you having fun out on the trail? Are you enjoying it? I am. It's been intense. It's been just about almost every single day since July 21st on the road. But you're seeing just incredible crowds, enthusiasm just to see me. I just got off a swing through Texas, two days there. We had 1 ,200 people show up to see me in San Antonio. We're raising lots of money. And it's just really the enthusiasm, too. So I'm really feeding off of that. The same thing you're seeing at Herbig rallies. You know, I'm getting at mine. And you're just feeling that happiness, that joy.

3:42So you can't help but, you know, have fun when you're out there doing it. And I'm just really trying to stay healthy, you know, sleeping, hydrating, and trying not to eat all the crappy food on the plane in the whole rooms and just so I can stay out there. And, you know, it's 40 days left from today, so we can do anything for 40 days. You go out, obviously, the people that turn up to your rallies and to her rallies, they're excited to see the two of you. I love your self-deprecation, almost British. But why do you think the polls are so close? Well, we're getting the word out there. I mean, I think if you go back to where the polls were before July 21st, I think she has made up a lot of ground, but it's going to be close.

4:23These elections, each cycle are very, very close. We're talking to now a small band of folks who haven't decided, but the good news is we're talking to them in seven, eight plus states right now, instead of just three. So that's why I was just in North Carolina. I think it was yesterday. I was in Florida. You know, we're traveling to all these places just to get the word out. But you heard our economic speech. You're seeing the endorsements. We got this amazing piece written by Stanley General McChrystal that came out today that he's choosing on character, on leadership, on adherence to our American values, rule of law.

5:04So we're starting to see those folks come in. You We saw that the Cheneys came in. We're getting more and more Republicans each and every day. And I think we're trying to address what the hesitance has been and whether that was on the economy. Look at the split screen yesterday on Trump trying to talk about the economy and just can't because he's incapable. And her giving a vision of this opportunity economy with details and some meat on the bones. And that's the difference. You've got somebody who actually is competent, who cares and doing it in a way that a leader should. And then on the other side, you've got somebody who's just, you know, talking about in an economic speech, scapegoating immigrants.

5:49And I think she's really trying that contrast. It's really resonating. And I'm seeing it in the crowds coming to my events. You're seeing more and more folks that are curious to hear more. And we're really trying to address those concerns that these swing voters have. these specific locations and it's starting to resonate. I want you to respond to something, Mr. Second Gentleman, a statement that was made to me yesterday. I said, well, I got to ask Doug this. The vice president is a master tent builder. Okay. And the second sentence is Bernie Sanders, Stanley McChrystal, Anthony Scaramucci, and Dick Cheney walk into a bar and we're all in the bar together to raise a glass to her.

6:34I want you to respond to that and her personality and what her gravitas is to pull those varying types of Americans into the tent with her. I thought you peeked at my stump speech, Anthony, because that's literally how I'm ending my speech with how she promised day one that she was going to earn the nomination check, unite the Democratic Party check, but then unite the country. And that's what's happening here. And I say the tent is so big, Bernie AOC on one side, the Cheneys, Anthony, and others on the other side. But it's what Liz Cheney said so well. It's what General McChrystal said so well.

7:14There may be differences on particular policies, and nobody's going to agree with everyone on every single policy. But we have to agree on the big things that make us Americans. Our rule of law, our constitution, not be clowning ourselves, but having that gravitas on the world stage and sticking up for our allies and actually just sticking up for America. And this is the greatest country on earth. Things are going well. The economy is going well. And we want a leader that represents that confidence in who we are as Americans. And I think that's the common thread you're seeing from when you and I have had this conversation, Anthony and other Republicans that I've talked to and those who've gone public.

7:59And again, as Liz Cheney and others have said and shown, and you have done that as well, it's not enough to just say, I'm not supporting Donald Trump. That's not enough. You've got to support Kamala Harris. If you really care about this country, you really care about the future. And look, you and I, we need a strong Republican party. We need them to come back. So we are having really good debates on policy and ideas and what is the best way to move us forward, but not on the basics, not on adherence to rule of law, free and fair elections. If you lose, you have to accept defeat and try again some other time, not foment an insurrection.

8:35I mean, these are the base core principles of who we are and what makes this country great. It makes our economy great. As you know, Anthony, authoritarianism is bad for business and chaos is bad for business. So I come from the business world. I make this speech to business leaders all the time. Don't just feel, oh, Trump's good on the economy. Well, I can debate that till we're blue in the face. He was not good on the economy. But the things he's saying, weaponizing the DOJ, terminating the constitution, going after enemies, dictator on day one, that's terrible for our economy. That will wreck our economy.

9:08Then you add in the tariffs and his terrible policies, tax cuts to billionaires. It's not even a question. So this is why we're getting this big tent. You know, this is a political podcast, but I was dying to ask you this question, if you don't mind. You're a, like me, you're a recovering lawyer. You had a great career as a lawyer. We have a lot of young people that listen to this podcast. If you don't mind, can you give us a couple of minutes on your career and the changes that you made and where you sit today and how what you did prior has prepared you for what you're doing today? Yeah, I miss it.

9:45I was a lawyer in Hollywood for about 30 years. I loved it. I was one of those lawyers who was just loved every minute of it. I love the practice. I love the action. I love the clients of the subject matter and even the business of law. So when Kamala got the call from Joe Biden in August of 2020, I didn't know it at the time, but that was actually the last day I ever practiced law. And I was working as a busy lawyer right up until she got that call. So for me, it was a very abrupt transition. And when Biden-Harris won that election, I was really, I think, struggling a little bit at the beginning to find some, OK, what do I do here?

10:25when I was so invested in my practice and in my love of being a lawyer. And it was really Kamala who said, hey, look, you're the first guy and you're the first Jew and you're a lawyer. So you got three great areas that you can lean into. Gender equity, which, of course, after Dobbs became something that I've spent a lot of time on and being the first Jew fighting against hate and anti-Semitism, which I've leaned into and then access to justice more pro bono. But I have been lucky. I've been able to teach Georgetown Law School on the side. So I teach a class in entertainment and I teach a class in alternative dispute resolution.

11:01And there I can kind of keep my brain active. I can read the cases. I can stay current. And I'll tell you, when I meet up some of my old colleagues, I just want to talk about, you know, cases and clients and what's going on. And they just want to talk to me about politics and being a second gentleman. And so it's never going to leave me, even though I'm recovering. I still think in point two, I'm never late. I know exactly what time it is after filling out a time sheet for 30 years. That never goes away. But the skills, though, people say, wow, you know, how are you able to do this? And I said, look, to be a lawyer in Hollywood, nobody wants a shaky lawyer.

11:39You got to be calm. You got to be confident. You got to be able to speak extemporaneously. You need to take in a lot of information. You need to listen because the bar there in Hollywood is actually pretty small and you see these folks regularly. So you've got to, you know, follow up on your word. You've got to, you know, follow through for your client. You got to make their problem your problem. So a lot of those skills that make you a successful lawyer actually do translate into politics. So not that it's been easy. None of this is. I prepare the same way as I do for everything. like a lawyer drives my team a little nuts sometimes.

12:12If I'm meeting third or fourth graders at a school and I'm just saying, hi, well, you know what? We're going to be the most prepared person ever to do that. And whether it's big moments or small moments, I treat it all the same. And I'm also, I'm doing it for her. I work, I'm in the office of the vice president. So I have to make sure I'm doing it for her. And I've got her back both as her husband, but also being good at this helps her and helps the administration. Now it helps the campaign. Can I ask you a bit more about that kind of role model thing? I mean, I'm sure you've noticed there are depressingly few men who are in your position.

12:47When I was naive enough in university to think that half of the world would be men like yourself and supporting their spouses. What would you say to young men who the Trump campaign is appealing to with a kind of slightly retro, macho view of what masculinity is. Young men who might want to be in a position one day of supporting their spouse, but are worried that it would diminish their own masculinity. Do you feel now that you're in a kind of position to try and reach those people, those young men? And how would you do it? It's something I think about all the time. And for me, it just came very naturally.

13:20I think it's the era we grew up in. I think we're all around the same age-ish, Katia, probably younger, but it's that pre-social media where we really came up together, men and women, you were working together. So when I started, it was actually a few more women than men at the firm. And so for me, it was always very normal to support women in your life. And it just is something that I did. And I think that's why Calm and I really bonded is that we supported each other professionally and as husband and wife. And so for me, it's always a bit curious when I get asked this question because it's just very normal for me.

14:02But I've also learned I can't lecture. I can't be a scold. I can't really tell people what to do, especially in this area. I just have to say, look, here's what I do. Here's why I do it. Here's why it's important to me. And just try to do it that way. And also, I'll just use facts where economically, women succeeding do not hurt men. It actually helps all of us. So there's this trope out there that if a woman succeeds, it's at the expense of some guys as if it's a zero-sum game. It's not. I mean, the economics prove it out that when we lift up women, when we have more women in leadership. But a lot of young men seem to feel it is a zero-sum game, seem to feel, you know, more for you is less for me.

14:45Well, that's why I'm bringing this up, because I want to challenge that belief, because it's just not true. It's not true in any organization. I've been trying to talk about it in a way that just, again, it's what I do. And it's the same way I talk about Dobbs, where this post-Dobbs hellscape that we live in, where women are dying. I have the same conversations with 25-year-old Ella, our daughter, and now 30-year-old Cole, our son, who's married now and thinking about starting a family. This is an issue about one, fairness. Women should not be treated less than. and it also affects family. You see these horrific stories where like Amanda and Josh Zyrowski, Josh is out there telling his story about how his wife almost died when they tried to start a family through IVF.

15:29It's very powerful. So getting more men to just talk about their own lived experience, why they're doing what they're doing, I think it will de-stigmatize and demystify some of these issues. And it's also, look, I'm the guy that jumped up on a stage when somebody was attacking my wife. I mean, I'm a dude. That's who I am too. So, both things can exist at the same time where I will stick up for my family. I will stick up for my friends. One of the reasons I became a lawyer is because I hate bullies. I was a bigger kid. So, I was always the one, you know, standing in front of the bullies. Well, you got to get through me first.

16:03So, that's why being a lawyer was such a great profession for me. So, all these things can be true. You can, you know, be a dude and I love sports and I have a fantasy team and I'm really protective of my family. But I also believe that women should succeed. We need more women in leadership. And it's okay to take a step back from your career if it makes sense for your family so your partner or spouse can go for that promotion, go for that raise, put their hat in the ring to run for elected office. And so just trying to show what I'm doing and hopefully that'll get across. I want you to answer the following question.

16:43I thought your speech at the convention was A plus, and I know you're thinking a lot about messaging. And so we're in the elevator together. Tell me the message. Give me the message. So that speech was really a part of the message, which was one, get to know me a little bit, get to know her. But third is she is ready to be president of the United States and commander in chief day one. So it's that joyful warrior. The joyful part is the member of our family, the woman that we all love, Mamala to the kids, someone who leads with empathy, who leadership, you're not there to beat people down, but you're there to lift people up.

17:24But the warrior part, the one who had no problem when, you know, Donald Trump is throwing everything at her, but be behind a computer or behind his phone or the safety of his rallies. And she said, you got something to say, man, say it to my face. Well, there he was at the debate, five feet away. He didn't look at her one time. And she had no problem looking him right in the eye and saying, you are a disgrace. World leaders are laughing at you. So you're seeing that, but she's also a capitalist. As she mentioned in her speech, pragmatic capitalist, see problem, solve problem, not ideological. She's all about how can I solve this problem?

18:01And that comes from herself being a great lawyer. And so you add all that up. You know, she's got the qualifications. She was a prosecutor. She was an elected DA, attorney general, senator, vice president. And as vice president, she's in the oval. She's in the sit room. She doesn't need to learn how to be a world leader. She already is a world leader. So you take this all together and you add in the economic policies, which are going to help a broad amount of people. She's ready to be president right now. Doug, was your best class trial advocacy? I was a pretty good trial lawyer. I can tell. But it's all got to be authentic.

18:41This is who she is. And this is what I have viewed that speech to do is to just show the Kamala Harris that I know and all these little aspects of her life and also bust through these caricatures of her, which are so wrong and ridiculous. And what they tried to say about her has so been debunked by herself. just being up there, her DNC speech, her debate, her speech yesterday, this is who she is. And they just can't seem to be able to deal with it. Doug, you've spoken a lot about having a regular marriage and a kind of normal being a regular couple. I'm just wondering how that's going these days.

19:19It's so funny you mentioned that. Just today, she happened to have a White House day also, as did I. And since we do not get to spend a lot of time together, all of a sudden, And I see all this scurrying around in my office and all this murmuring. And it's like the door opens and there she is. Big smile on her face. Just everyone gets out and she just said, I just wanted to come in and give you a big hug. And I gave her a big hug. And how you doing? I'm great. I'm going to go do Caddy and Anthony's podcast. I'm on my way to the DNC. She's like, I got a few events. And it was such a distillation of the fact that even with all this going on, she still took the time to come in because we're not getting enough time together to give me a big smile and a big hug and tell me that she loved me.

20:05And I told her that I loved her and, uh, you know, I'll see you on the road. You take your dates where you can get them these days. Yeah. Not a lot of happy couple of times these, these days. And again, I will, um, you know, you're surrounded. It's like Kamala everywhere. And I'll say, Hey, did you see this, this pause. She's just like, uh-uh, just literally will take my head, put it down, and just get back out on the road. And that is exactly what I've been doing. And I will continue to do it for the next 40 days. And this is the one thing I think Walt and I disagree on where he's been saying, I'll sleep when I'm dead.

20:42Tim, I'm going to sleep on November 6th because I want to enjoy the fruits of our labor here once they get elected. Doug Emhoff, thank you very much. the second gentleman. Thanks very much for joining us, Doug. We really appreciate your time. We know how precious time is out on the campaign trail and good luck out there. Thank you both and keep doing what you're doing. Best of luck to you, Doug. We wish you the best.

21:06So Anthony, I felt we covered a lot of ground with him. What did you think of the interview? I found him to be remarkably warm and he was very relaxed and he strikes me as a guy that really loves his wife. And so he sees his role in a way that I admire a great deal. And by the way, if you can hear some sirens and car horns behind me, apologies there. It's UN week here in New York and you're catching live New York City commotion. So I'm going to say five things and then turn it back to you. He's warm. He's authentic. He's very, very bright. He's a passionate advocate for her. And then the last thing, which I think is the most important thing, he genuinely loves her and he genuinely loves the country.

21:54So I think all of that came out in the 19 minutes that we had with him. I did a little bit of digging around and called some people who'd known him from before in his earlier life when he was a lawyer. And they said, look, he really was the real deal. He was a very client-facing entertainment lawyer in Los Angeles. He wasn't somebody who was in the kind of back room that everyone pretended was a great lawyer. He really was. He brought his law firm a lot of money and a lot of clients. And the reason they were kind of telling me this was to say, look, for him to give that up. And I think that what I liked about the interview was how he was honest about how he missed it.

22:30It's not easy to give up a career. It's not easy for a woman to give up a career to support their husband. And it really isn't easy for a man to give up their career to support their wife just because it's not done very much because it is still kind of novel. I mean, that's why he's always being asked about his role. And I thought, for me, those answers were really interesting where he talked about the role that he has. And I thought when I asked him, how do you then become a role model? I mean, there are these two, we've spoken about this on the program before, there are these two kind of competing views of masculinity in these campaigns.

23:02You've got these two supportive men in Tim Walsh and Doug Emhoff, who are both supporting the woman who is the kind of principal in this whole scenario. And then you have the kind of view of masculinity that J.D. Vance and Donald Trump are talking about, that Donald Trump has always spoken about, this kind of macho and retro. And I thought it was interesting when he said, look, he's realized that if you're trying to influence people, you have to, you know, it's that classic Hollywood thing, I guess he's been in LA long enough, you have to show, not tell. And that telling people this is the way to do it and you must support your spouse.

23:33And that means there's a bigger pie for everybody. It's not a zero-sum game. Being a scold, as he put it, doesn't really work. And so he just hopes that by being out there and leading by example and being honest about, you know, it's not always easy. You might miss the career you have, but you do it because it's the right thing to do and because you love your spouse and because actually you can make something very valuable out of it. I thought that was really interesting. I know he's thought about that. I've heard him speak about that. But I thought he spoke about it really movingly and also honestly about the limitations of what he can do.

24:05I mean, one person is not going to change the world and he's not going to change everybody's view of masculinity. But there is a kind of battle for what it means to be a man going on. And I thought the way he talked about that was very thoughtful. What did you think about the policy stuff? What did you think about what he said about the economy? Because I know that's an area where you've got some concerns about the campaign. What did you think about what he said about that? Well, again, it's not my personal concerns because I've read through her position papers, and I've talked to enough of the people on our economic team.

24:34And I will tell you that Gene Sperling, who was with Biden, is now with Harris. Who worked for Barack Obama. And with Clinton, Bill Clinton, 30 years ago. Gene is a personal friend of mine. And you get a guy like Gene Sperling in the White House as very good for the economy. And I think Gene Sperling is not only a good luck charm, but he's brilliant on policy and she's listening to him. And you can see that was evident with Doug said, which is, you know, we're going to go for the right solution, not something that's overly politicized. And I think she's really benefiting from what I would call a sprint election.