53. Facebook goes MAGA: The secret behind Zuckerberg’s Trump tilt

0:06Welcome to The Rest is Politics US. I'm Katty Kay. I'm Anthony Scaramucci in the U.S. Okay, Katty Kay, of course, is a bon vivant. She's a posh bon vivant. And so she's not in the U.S. Where are you, Katty Kay? Do we have to do this every time that I'm in the U.S.? Do we have to reveal our sources? Okay. We do. We do because you're British. You're British. You don't, you're so British that you don't like the conspicuous consumption of your life. No, that's true. And I am so American that I need to call it out. So where are you, Katty? Okay. I was in Morocco last week, as we know, visiting my sister.

0:39and I am in Rome this week visiting my aunt. You know, this is going to take a while if we're going to do this every time because every time I go and visit a member of my family, I may have to go to New Zealand to visit my brother. I may have to go to Malta to visit my other brother. Oh, no. We're going to do this, Katty Kay. Okay. I mean, you have way more fans than me, but my fans want to know where you are. Okay. That's what they ask me. Hence this. Can you see this lovely green room that I am in? Yes. Beautiful. Very Roman. Very beautiful. I'm looking out over a lovely piazza, and I had a very delicious bowl of pasta for lunch, so I'm ready to go.

1:13All good. You know how I can tell you're not in America? That TV behind you is like the size of a contact lens, okay? And this is big by the standards of some of the hotels I've been in Europe. All right. What are we going to talk about, Caddy Kay? What are we talking about? Talking of Europe. Actually, this is a good place to be. Joe Biden was meant to be here today, but he can't be here because of those awful wildfires. And I'm thinking of friends. I have a couple of friends who have lost houses in California. So we are thinking of them today, but Joe Biden canceled his trip to come and see the Pope.

1:42He was meant to be here today. He's not here. But we are going to talk about Europe's other anxiety, which is Donald Trump flirting with the idea of taking over Greenland. He's also talked about taking over the Panama Canal. He has also talked about taking over Canada. So this has got allies in a little bit of a flurry. And I think we should try and sort through some of the signal and noise on this. How How serious could this be? But I have a kind of slightly counterintuitive thought on the Greenland part of this, and we can get into that, which is that he's actually raising an issue that needs to be raised and that the strategic importance of Greenland for global security has to be discussed.

2:21I don't think it means that Greenland has to be nabbed by Donald Trump, even though Don Jr. flew in there yesterday, handing out MAGA hats to the few passers-by who were around. But I do think there is a security issue there. And then the second part of the show, we are going to talk about big tech cozying up to Donald Trump, having spent years kind of hiding themselves away in Silicon Valley. They all now seem to love the power center of Washington, D.C., or what's about to become the power center of Washington, D.C., and how Zuckerberg has done a little bit of a vault fast when it comes to restrictions and protections on his platform.

2:56So we're going to talk about that in the second half. But let's kick off with Greenland. And I have had a couple of conversations with European officials about this. And the Danes are taking this seriously. They think this, they hear all the stuff about how this is just Donald Trump. He floats things. It's the beginning of negotiations. Read the first three pages of the art and the deal. And you'll see that Donald Trump goes in without a plan and then kind of makes a few phone calls and comes up with some idea of a plan. And that maybe this is Donald Trump just kind of as an opening bid. But they are taking this seriously.

3:26They are looking at the security of Greenland and they are wondering what they could do if Donald Trump really does want to take over that huge big island, which, fair is fair, is probably closer to North America than it is to Denmark. Have you been to Greenland? I have never been. No. Have you been? No, I've never been. You know, what's interesting is I ask people, they've been to Greenland and some of them say, well, they landed there. These are usually very posh people that have private planes and they refueled in Greenland. Even posher than you and me. Not possibly not posher than you, but definitely posher than me.

3:57I mean, you set yourself up on that one. But let me just say, let me just say this to you. The problem of all this is the lack of historical understanding of how we got to where we are at this moment in global history and where we need to go. So if you tell me the ice is melting, those northern passages through the Arctic are going to be very important for commercial shipping lanes, important for national security interests. And we do have threats. We have ideological threats. We live in a Western-style democracy. Europe is in primarily most of all of Western Europe is in Western-style democracies.

4:35And if you're telling me that this is going to be a national security issue for all of us, I got that. If you're telling me that the United States is taking it, it's either going to take it militarily or it's going to take it or try to buy it. You could try to buy it. Okay, then we got to go back in time. We need Dominic Sandbrook and Tom Holland to talk about colonialism and to talk about the scourges of colonialism, the bad karma of it, and the potential impact. But if you had a real transformational leader at the helm of the United States, they would be in touch with Denmark and they would be doing this very, very differently.

5:12It wouldn't be a bully at the bully pulpit acting like a bully saying, well, we're going to take Greenland and this is going to happen or that's going to happen. You wouldn't do it that way. Okay. Because it's a middle school, immature way to do it. But if you said, hey, I'd like to meet with the prime minister of Denmark, I'd like to visit Greenland, I'd like to explain to these people the world we're heading into and how we need each other. And the U.S. would like to have a strategic foothold there, which would benefit Denmark and would benefit others. And if you said to Denmark, hey, you've got a 2%, 3 % threshold on NATO, you're a member of NATO, let us have some more resources here in Greenland, and we'll carry your burden militarily in NATO, I don't know, something like that.

5:59All of a sudden, this becomes a transformational visionary leader who's not just the leader of the United States, but is the leader of Western civilization and the leader of free people everywhere. As Jack Kennedy said in, ich bin ein Berliner. I am a Berliner. I'm standing here before this wall, but I am you. I represent a beacon of freedom and hope for mankind. But we don't have that. We have, here's a MAGA hat and, you know, take it or leave it. Are you suggesting that Donald Trump Jr.

6:34flying in with that kind of Trump plane and landing in Greenland and passing out a whole few half dozen MAGA huts is not quite the same as John F. Kennedy turning up in Berlin at the height of the Cold War? Not quite the same level of political sophistication. From a presidential perspective, in the terms of modern presidents, I tried to come up with the antipode. I tried the best I could to go to the diametrically opposite side of what this jackass is actually doing so that we could explain to people how dangerous this actually is. So there's another issue going on. There's an ancestral issue as it relates to the residents of Greenland.

7:12They may want to be linked to the United States. I don't know. My point is, though. How he's handling it. Yeah, but also should a group of people in this generation make that decision for the next 500 generations of Greenlanders? You know, there's a mood and there's a whimsy today, but it may not be the mood and whimsy of tomorrow. And so, but for me, I would say this to you, and please forgive me because I've really looked at this, and it's my opinion, and hopefully there'll be somebody that'll counteract what I'm saying. the scourge of colonialism has hurt the United Kingdom. Has it helped the United Kingdom?

7:47Certainly, but it has hurt the United Kingdom. The scourge of colonialism has hurt the United States. We still have problems in Cuba. We still have problems around the world, frankly, for some of the things that we've done. I would say the same for the French in Morocco. I would say the same for - The Belgians. The Belgians in Africa. We need to figure out as a group of very smart people, how we live in harmony with each other and how we're sensitive to each other's indigenous natures, but how we also have to be committed to the common wheel, have to be committed to the common idea that we are better together to protect our own individual identities and our own individual freedoms.

8:30That is the antithesis of Donald Trump's view of foreign policy, the idea that we're better together, right? That's why I got my ass fired after 11 days. And that's why I am your podcast co-host, as opposed to working on the MAGA team, handing out hats in Greenland. First of all, first of all, to not even understand the buffoonery of this, okay, to not, to sit there. And here's the thing. What about these spineless people that are Republicans that are watching this and they know how wrong it is and they know how absurd it is and they know that we don't need to do this, that we could accomplish these goals.

9:07We could go to the Panamanian and say, listen, we've been somewhat lax on this whole thing. You can't have the Chinese here. We've been professing the Monroe Doctrine since the early 1800s. We can go to the Canadians and say, listen, we've got the North America Free Trade Agreement. We need to bolster it or revisit it or reset it. You're not going to be able to police that navigation to your north if those ices melt. And you're going to need our help and we need to get more conjoined together. We have a lot of common interests. We could do it that way or we could act like a jackass. I'm sorry to use that word on this podcast.

9:40At a bully pulpit, acting like a bully. What it highlights is that Trump can hit on a kernel of a good idea, right? I mean, I do think the fact that the ice cap is melting, that these roots are going to open up, that the Chinese tried to build three airports on Greenland, that the Russian submarine activity has recently been increasing in the area. The amount of rare earth minerals that China controls in the world has 44 million tons, virtually a monopoly. Greenland has 1.5 million tons, important for America. Would China ever use its rare earth minerals in a trade war as some kind of weapon against the rest of the world?

10:22All of that is making Greenland central. It's geography, what it has, the fact that the ice cap is melting. So actually, I think there is a valid discussion to be had about who would be the best steward of Greenland for global security, right? I mean, not just for America's security. That is the problem that Donald Trump phrases all of this just in terms of American security. He didn't even say the security of the West or the security of Western democracies. He just said for America's security, we must have it. Well, that doesn't go down great with Denmark and it doesn't go down great even with Greenlanders.

10:59So he has this idea, but he just doesn't know how to couch it or express it or act upon it in a way that doesn't make it seem entirely transactional with him being the sole beneficiary or him and... representing the United States, being the sole beneficiary. And if there was a way, as you say, of having a kind of opening a discussion, actually the Danish, interestingly, are open to that discussion. I mean, this has put the Danish prime minister in a god awful position, because she can't afford to alienate the Americans. She can't afford to alienate Donald Trump. I mean, she is going through what every European leader is going through at the moment, but on steroids.

11:34And she does want to do something about protecting the security of Greenland and its assets. But she also doesn't want to be looking like she's selling off Greenland entirely, allowing the Greenlanders, because in the end, this would come down to a plebiscite in Greenland. And could they be bought? She doesn't want to make it look like she's not taking Greenland security seriously and is prepared just to let Donald Trump go and buy it. I mean, the thing about the image of Donald Trump Jr. flying in almost made it look like this was a Trump family purchase. I mean, it's not even just America. There's something about the Trump plane.

12:06He didn't even wait for it to be Air Force one or whatever Donald Trump Jr. would have flown on. It made it look very sort of family acquisitionist. So it does put allies in a difficult position. It makes them wonder how reliable America is, how volatile this administration is going to be and what to expect. And whilst many of them are saying, European diplomats I've spoken to have said, look, we have to separate signal from noise. He may just be floating this. He may not. He may really intend to do this. And I think that's worrying for allies. And it also sends a message Europeans have told me to adversaries saying, listen, the era in which we have kind of great power spheres of influence, and you can nab that bit of land, and I can control that bit of land, that's kind of open season again.

12:49And I don't think any of that is great for global security, let alone the poor people of Greenland, although they do now have some very nice MAGA hats. A couple of things. On the western side of Greenland, there's the Bathin Bay, and I'm proposing that we turn that into the Bay of America. I think that's something we should probably do. As you go down to the Labrador Sea, there's the Davis Strait. So I think that should be the DJT Strait. And by the way, it's shorter. They might as well just put that on there. And then on the eastern side, let's let Iceland continue with the Iceland Sea, but the Greenland Sea should obviously be just called USAC, don't you think?

13:28Well, I think you just do Magasi. Magasi. Magasi. Yeah, Magasi. I like that better. I mean, we don't have a magazine in the world. So I think that would be good. I like that better. Now, the two oceans, like the Pacific and the Atlantic, I think Trump is enough of a traditionalist that he'll want to keep those names. Yeah. Okay. But we're just getting the administration started. We'll have to see where. Could become the American Atlantic. That could be good. He's very close to a guy named Tim Apple. I don't know if you know who Tim Apple is, but he runs Apple Computer. And so he'll go to him and the map makers at Apple and say, we should change it.

14:01So for me, here's the thing I would say to you, and this is the thing about Trump that people do like. Let's be objective here. He says things that other people are thinking. He says, okay, why did we dump all that water in the Pacific Ocean when you needed it? And why do we have irresponsible urban leaders knowing that you have wildfires like this? Why aren't you set up for it? In Canada, yeah. And why aren't you set up for it when you know you could be set up for it, but you've decided through what you see. See, what the Democrats are losing. We want to govern on style and not substance. We want to put DEA people, DEI people in just for the sake of it.

14:43We want to do certain things that make us look better from a virtue signal. But we actually are not governing properly. OK. And Trump is saying things that people like, Katty. He's saying things that people like. They're like, well, I would like there to be less crime in this subway. I would like there to be less violence on our streets. I would like there to be people that are in government that help us control wildfires and let it rage. You know, the American military has bases out there. They could have deployed planes. But what are you guys doing? Are you going to wait for the entire city to burn down?

15:18So you've got a crisis of governmental incompetence going on. Right. And then you have a buffoon who is your crazy uncle, armchair quarterback, armchair football analyst. He's calling shots from the seats. The one thing that they've also told us, haven't they? I mean, what people want is no more wars. And that's why I don't, this also doesn't, you know, fit with the Donald Trump pulling us out of the wars agenda, because look, I don't, maybe he just wants us to be talking about him. And none of this is serious. And he has absolutely no intention of trying to take Greenland or the Panama Canal back.

15:52But if he were to, Greenland is a member of NATO. It's a member of the European Union. It's not an easy thing to do. You've got the French and the Germans saying, hold on a second, we respect Europe's territorial integrity. And one thing the American voters have made very clear is they don't want more military engagement. I mean, that's what I slightly don't understand about this. Why is Greenland that important to Donald Trump when he was elected partly on a platform of no more wars and no more foreign engagement? And yet he hasn't even got into office. And he's talking about the possibility of not one but two potential military conflicts.

16:25I want to make you the comms director for the Trump people. Okay. For 11 days or longer do I have? No, no, no, no doubt you'll last longer than me. But for the next several minutes, you're the comms director. I'm going to say something. I want you to react to it. So I'm the MAGA people and we have goals. And what are our goals? We need to present America as more muscular because we're macho people. We eat a lot of bacon and we need to present America as more muscular and we're going to flex on the world. At the same time, we have national security interests in Greenland and Panama and Canada. And so what we'd like to do is have more control over these situations.

17:01So how should we do it? Should we do it the Donald Trump way? Or, Katty Kay, what would be your recommendation as a comms person and a U.S. diplomat to achieve the goals that the United States is trying to achieve? Because there is something underneath the nonsense of what Donald Trump is saying. Yeah, it's right. I agree. So tell us what is underneath the nonsense and then tell us what you would do to achieve those goals. Well, that's why I was saying this is a conversation that does need to be had, that Greenland is becoming increasingly strategically important. The Chinese are circling it. The Russians are circling it.

17:38They're all both eyeing their own interests in that area. They're both trying to do soft and potentially hard with their subs, more hard with their subs, you know, influence bearing. and it's not in the United States' interest and it's not in Western Europe's interest. So I think I would, but I would be fired in this case after about three minutes. I would probably couch this in terms of a Western hemispheric discussion that needs to be had about how do we protect Western democracy's interests when it comes to Greenland and shoring up to make sure that Greenland is viable and is protected and one radar base that America has its most northern most radar base in Greenland is probably not going to cut it.

18:24That's not enough to ensure Greenland's security and therefore the security of other Western European nations. But that would get me thrown out of the White House, Donald Trump's White House, in about a hot minute. You're now the prime minister of Denmark. Yeah. Oh, my God. Poor woman. And OK, and I pick up the phone, I call you, OK, and I say, hey, how are you? We have mutual interests, I want to do a deal in Greenland. And I'm going to give you$200 billion worth of gold or$200 billion worth of something that's not US dollar related, that's of quote unquote global value for this province. And as a result of which I'm also going to fund the Greenlanders with different incentives, the same way we fund the Alaskans.

19:05Okay. There's a fund up there and we're going to fund these people and a result of which you'll have a foothold here, but we're going to have a much bigger foothold. That would be my recommendation to help us protect the Western world. As the Danish prime minister, this is not actually my decision to make. It has to be the people of Greenland's decision to make. So it would have to go to a plebiscite, I guess, in Greenland. We would have to canvas them in some way and ask them if this is something that they wanted. You are such a nice person. It's unbelievable. Is this the reason why you have a much larger fan base than me?

19:36You are such a nice person. This is my subtle way of telling Donald Trump to, you know, back off. It's a way of saying, this is not Mr. Trump, my decision to make. It has to go to the people of Greenland. No, no, no. But you didn't do that, Katty Kay. You did not do that. But you don't need to say that. That's an effective way of saying that. But Greenland, as she has said, you know. Because now you're calling it out a vote. You have Greenlanders voting on it. Right. Let me ask you this. If you're Abraham Lincoln, and you want the citizens of South Carolina to vote on their secession from the United States?

20:10No, no. Okay, so do you want the Greenlanders? It's always a risk. As Britain knows, when it took a referendum on Brexit, referendums can go the way you may or you may not want them to go, or unexpected ways. But I'm just saying a leader like Lincoln would never let that vote happen. No. Say, look, I'm sorry. This is part of our country. It's not part of your country. Yeah. We're in the same military alliance. She has said this. She said this on the BBC a couple of days ago, that this is the Greenlanders' decision to make, that this is not something that is in her remit. That's a mistake. Yeah.

20:43At the moment, the polls ingest to the extent that you have them, and this comes from Danish journalists who are in Greenland at the moment interviewing people. It doesn't look like there's really any support for Donald Trump to come along and try and buy Greenland. And that's partly because Greenlanders also want guarantees of a social democratic lifestyle, right? I mean, they have free healthcare. They have free education. Now, of course, America could fund that. They could do that. But that's not the way America works. They look at American society. They see that's not what the game is in the United States.

21:11They are European in that respect. And they are social democratic Europeans in that respect. So I don't think that that is something that the Greenlanders are about to sign on for. Greenland, I mean, it's interesting because it is a little bit of a confusing situation. It is also a constitutional issue. And the Danish prime minister has said very clearly that Greenland is not for sale, that it can't be bought. But she does want America to be involved. I just want to throw something at you. You know, there's a beautiful island. It's off the coast of Europe. It's got northern positions and southern positions.

21:42And, you know, I don't know. I think it would be a really good military and strategic foothold for the United States. And it's got very nice palaces in its capital with people who wear like old fashioned crowns and things, which would be sort of fun. Right. For Americans. Great accents. Great accents. And apparently they're very high IQ people. So Donald Trump would like that. I mean, is that where we're going? And you know what? We could change the, we only have to change one word. We only change one word. It's united. Already. There's another word called kingdom. We just have to change it. This is insane, Katika.

22:13This is insane. So you wonder why I'm coming around Europe and I'm in hotel lobbies and the poor Americans who are checking in to their hotel in Rome, the first question they are being asked about is, is Donald Trump seriously going to buy Greenland? And is Italy next? ha ha ha. But I pity, you know, this is a rough time to be in Europe as an American, because here we go again. And I heard that conversation. I thought, here we go again. This is going to be like Trump administration one, where all of Europe has its hair on fire over everything he says. When we heard Trump's speech after he came down the elevator in June of 2015, he said, you know, the Mexicans, they're not sending their best.

22:54But you know what? The Americans, starting on January 20th, 2025, not sending their best to face the rest of the world. By the way, your idea that Donald Trump might go for Greenland, Panama Canal, Canada, and then that little funny island off the coast of Europe has caused so much dismay amongst our producers that your tenure in the goal hanger family may be a little precarious at the moment. It's been tenuous since day one. I wasn't even your first choice for this, Mike. Okay, right. Moving along. It's been tenuous since day one. We are going to take a break and then come back and talk about Mark Zuckerberg and Meta and the changes in the tech world with reference to Donald Trump.

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