62. The Truth Behind Putin’s Relationship With Trump

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1:18hello and welcome to the rest is politics us with me katty k in cold gray washington and me anthony scaramucci on the island of grand cayman it must be raining i'm so sorry that you've gone on holiday and it's raining that's so hard for you it's the pool fountain katty i can't figure out a way to get the pool fountain off. I don't know how to make coffee. Most Italians are stereotyped as like really good at like being handy. I am not handy. No, I'm sorry. It's just bad. It's bad news here. But oh, somebody just turned it off. Somebody just turned off the fountain. In which case, let us begin. So today, whilst you are dealing with your fountain and your swimming pool.

2:06We are looking at the potential. Excuse me. Could you pass me the coffee? Oh, thank you. Yes. Thank you for making it for me. So you get on with your coffee and the fountain and the pool and the sunshine, and we'll talk about the potential end of civilization and the collapse of the Western order. No, we seriously, we're going to talk about what Donald Trump has said about Russia, rewriting history, really saying that the Ukrainians started this war that will be news to everybody in Ukraine and Europe and in America as we watched it with our own eyes as Russian troops rolled towards Kiev. But it's a very interesting moment in US-Russia relations, and we're going to get into that.

2:50What does Russia have or what does Vladimir Putin have over Donald Trump? And then we are going to look at the extraordinary story of the New York City Mayor Eric Adams, who has been indicted on corruption charges, has had those lifted, for the moment at least, by the president, who would like him to enact his own immigration policies. And what does that mean for America? And is America actually becoming more like Russia? We'll get into that in the second half. By the way, Anthony, it is day 30 of the Trump administration, which means there are only 1 ,400 more to go. I know you like your maths on that one.

3:31So I don't know how your stamina is doing. But day 30 feels to me like we have had month 30. I guess that my question to you, I've been thinking about this all morning, so I just got to ask you this question. Why is anybody surprised that Trump praised Putin for four years? Trump said all kinds of nasty stuff about Ukraine and Europe during his 2024 campaign. It's the 30th day in. He's literally reciting Putin talking points at press conferences so badly, so badly that he says, well, that's me saying it, not them. Meaning he's like repeating their stuff about Zelensky having an election, etc. So I guess why are we surprised?

4:19And then the second question is, should we be surprised that the Republicans in his own party, who vociferously disagree with him behind the scenes. They disagree with him strongly. Okay, we'll use the Trumpian word. They disagree with me strongly. You know, he talks about it like that, right? And yet they won't say anything in public. So number one, are we surprised? And why are so many people acting surprised? And then number two, why are the Republicans nowhere? I mean, the Democrats at this point, I don't know what they're doing. So I just almost feel bad for them. It's almost like they've got to like it's almost like they've got to sell the team.

4:57Like it's like a football expression. Team's not doing well. You've got to trade out the players and recirculate. You know, the Democrats are out of it. But why aren't the Republicans fighting back? I would say that we're not surprised that Donald Trump is holding these talks with Russia without having the Ukrainians at the table. We're not surprised that he is saying that Ukraine is not going to get into NATO or he doesn't think they are. We're not surprised that he's saying Ukraine's going to have to give up the territory that Russia is holding and won't go back to its pre-2014 borders. I don't think any of that surprises us.

5:31I was surprised when I heard the president on Tuesday night giving a press conference at which he said, basically blamed the Ukrainians for the war. And this is the phrase, you should have never started it. I mean, that is a step beyond anything I would have expected, even from Donald Trump. Yes, there are people in an administration, Tulsi Gabbard is one of them, for example, now the new head of intelligence, who has kind of tiptoed up to the idea that the war was somehow NATO's fault or the West's fault for pushing the bounds of NATO too close to Russia's border. And that then provoked the Russians to invade.

6:12Actually, if you listen to speeches that Vladimir Putin has been given right back since the kind of early 90s, you know that he's had Ukraine in his sights. But to hear the president of the United States turn black into white or white into black and say, you should have never started it when it was Ukraine that was invaded by Moscow is still, I find, pretty staggering. And I think what struck me as well listening to that press conference is how angry he is with Zelensky. He was really sounding pissed at the Ukrainian government. And this proposal of elections, I think, is buying, as you say, the Russian talking points.

6:53The Russians would love to put in a puppet government. They think if they can have elections, they can get in somebody who is basically a stooge of Vladimir Putin's. The only thing I can think of that's changed in the last few days since we last spoke was how angry Donald Trump apparently is, I'm hearing, at the Ukrainians' rejection of the idea that America should get half of their rare earth minerals as some sort of payback. And they didn't expect the Ukrainians to reject that so forcefully. And with Donald Trump, things are personal very quickly. Politics is personal for him. And to have Zelensky turn down what he thought was a great negotiating bid, I guess he's pissed at that.

7:35I mean, I think he thinks it's OK to negotiate with people and you start with a maximalist position. But he clearly in Ukraine's case, it has annoyed him. And so he's now rewriting history and saying that the Ukrainians started this war, which is, as somebody I was on television with this morning said, this was a shameful day for the United States of America. So shameful. And I don't want to be histrionic, but it would be like Hitler coming into Czechoslovakia and Trump siding with him. I mean, so he's he's basically seeded the idea that there can be a liberal democracy in the Ukraine. He's basically saying that he wants it partitioned and he wants the Russians to take over.

8:17But he's saying something else, which is, I think, more dangerous. He's saying that the world order that was established at the end of the Second World War is now over. I, Donald Trump, decree it over. And we're now going to move into what is a multipolar neo-nationalist world. And so let me just define that for people. What he is saying with Putin, Putin's got his territory of the world. I, Donald Trump, not the United States, I, Donald Trump, have my territory. in the world. And of course, President Xi and China has his territory. And so whatever's done in these respective backyards will be done by us.

9:02So I don't know, does that mean that we're going to invade Canada? I mean, I don't think the United States is up for that. But Trump is talking about it very seriously about wanting them to be the 51st state. So the notion that we are now neo-nationalist and the notion that the United States is going to forego all the systems that the United States architected over 80 years, which Cady has led to great peace and great prosperity for the most part. Now, certainly we have our problems and Europe has its problems, but it's generally been peaceful and prosperous. So what's your reaction to that? Am I wrong in saying, but that's what I feel like he's doing.

9:46Yeah, I think he's pushed us into the spheres of influence world. It looks to me like Article 5 of NATO, which is really the bedrock of the NATO alliance, is pretty much over. I don't think anyone is deluded in thinking that were Vladimir Putin to attack Poland or one of the Baltic states, that America would come to their defense. I see that as incredibly unlikely. And so we do have a new era. And I think what Europe is now having to grapple with is the idea that, okay, we may be able to carve up something now for Ukraine. But in three or four years time, when Russia has rebuilt its military, this is certainly what the Ukrainians believe.

10:29This is certainly what American intelligence believes. Vladimir Putin wants Ukraine. He wants the whole thing. He wants Kyiv. And this is what was so absurd about what the president said in that press conference. Vladimir Putin wants Ukraine. He wanted to be in Kiev. He would have taken the whole thing were it not for the effort that the West mounted against him, led by the United States of America. And here is Donald Trump saying, you could have had peace immediately. You didn't need to have this war. Well, the only way for the Ukrainians not to have this war would have been to say to Vladimir Putin, we're opening the doors to our country here, you can take it.

11:04That was the only option they had. And that seems to be what Donald Trump is now suggesting the Ukrainians should have done. And I think Article 5, if I was in Poland right now, or if I was in Estonia, or if I was in Latvia, I would be feeling particularly nervous. Wouldn't you? I mean, yeah, well, no, of course. Well, the polls have said as much. You know, I don't know if you remember Ambassador Georgette Mosbacher, she worked in the first Trump administration. She worked with the American military to make sure that the 101st airborne was based in Poland. And obviously, obviously, they sent more forces there after the invasion in 2022.

11:47So they know, they know. What do you think is behind Donald Trump sounding so angry at Ukraine last night that he's blaming them for the war? What's the switch? My silence is because what I really think is not in the mainstream. And so what I really think, if I end up saying it on our podcast, people will say, OK, I'm being absurd. OK, so I think there's a hold on him. I don't know why it's like this. McMaster couldn't figure it out. Mattis couldn't figure it out. Kelly couldn't figure it out. Did you guys used to speak about this during the last administration when you were there? Yes. Somebody last night from the former administration texted me, it's weird, the relationship with Putin.

12:35It's just weird. Meaning, if you didn't know any better, right? Let's say, let's give President Trump the benefit of the doubt. You would say, okay, he's obviously the American president. He can't be in the tank for Vladimir Putin. But then, as you know from the KGB, they do everything out in the open. OK, so that's part of their technique. Right. And there's Occam's razor. If we open up the window, you hear a clippity clop outside. It's a horse caddy. It's not a zebra. You can't overthink it. So this guy is repeating Kremlin talking points to the American media. He's bullying his Republican friends.

13:16You know and I know that more than one senator has complained about credible death threats where the FBI has reported to them, hey, we've got some credible death threats on our hands. And so I don't know. I mean, again, it's so obvious that it's probably not true. But you tell me, have we ever seen the sitting president of the United States go through talking points? Okay. Alexander Dugan, who is a very famous inside of Russia philosopher. He wrote a piece which I sent to you this morning. Yeah, and he basically said that, you know, Lavrov is running Trump. Lavrov will be briefing Trump on what to do here to establish this new world order, which is a post-Soviet but pro-Russian.

14:09Russia controls the Eastern European theater. I guess that means the reattachment of all of their republics and domination of Poland, I guess. I don't know. I mean, am I being too aggressive by saying this, Caddy? You got to tell me, Eva, because I don't want people to say, oh, you know, he's got Trump derangement. I don't have Trump derangement syndrome. I have Trump reality syndrome. I'm just telling you what we all saw, what we're all worried about. The two tales are where he blatantly rewrites history saying that the Ukrainians started the war. And the second tell is what you mentioned calling for elections, which is straight out of Vladimir Putin's playbook.

14:49That is exactly what Vladimir Putin wants to happen. It is not what the Ukrainians want to happen. So let me interrupt for a second. He is also telling lies. He said that we put more money into the war than the Europeans. Did we, Gatti? Of course we didn't. We did not. He's also saying that Vladimir Zelensky has an approval rating of 4%. He has an approval rating of 52%. I mean, it's not true. OK, yeah. So he's just telling right out, flat out lies, just like he does. You know, I got 36 percent more of the vote than than Vice President Harris because of TikTok. Actually, you didn't. You lost the youth vote.

15:24So this manufactured reality, you've got senators from the United States government who have just gotten back from the Ukraine and they disagree with Donald Trump. And some of them are saying it. OK, who who's saying it? Well, Wickler is saying it. Collins has said it, but not enough of them are saying it out loud and forthrightly. I mean, we know that the Republican Senate body, by and large, is in favor of supporting Ukraine. And there are not enough of the voices. There are not enough of them. Where are the John McCain's of the Republican Party? So what happens? Zelensky is not going to agree to anything that they're talking about.

16:04The European leadership, Katya, are they going to side with Zelensky and they're going to say, OK, I'm sorry, we have to make a stand here for democracy here in the Ukraine? It's too close to our borders. Or did they say, OK, you know what? It's Czechoslovakia. Let's let him have it. He'll stop there. He's not going to go any further. I mean, it's literally a replay of history. So go ahead. What are we doing? It's a replay of history. And America is in the position, I guess, that it was before FDR was persuaded by Winston Churchill to join after Pearl Harbor to join the allies where the majority of the American public was saying, look, we are feeling more isolationist.

16:45This is a long way away. We've just been through one big war. I mean, in that respect, the parallels in terms of the American public's feeling, the American president's feeling is pretty similar. They we've been through the wars in the Middle East. We are not interested in getting involved in another war again. And we're prepared to do what we think is in America's interest. The trouble is that what's in America's short term interest may not be in America's long term interest. By the way, it was Senator Roger Wicker of Mississippi and Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana who have come out and been more critical of the way that the administration is handling these negotiations.

17:24One more thing. I'm sorry. One more thing. Marco Rubio. WTF, Katty K. WTF. Tell me what's going on with Marco. Marco's looking in the mirror right now. And what is he saying to himself, Marco? If it's not me, it will be worse. That's the most charitable explanation of what he's saying to himself. 2016 he gave an interview that predicted all of this while he was running for president and he said that this would be a disaster for the west and and trump was pro-putin now he's sitting there as this guy's secretary of state enacting the things that he said was a disaster eight years ago talking about the wonderful geoeconomic opportunities that there could be for the United States in a relationship with Russia, meanwhile, ignoring the fact that Vladimir Putin has been accused of war crimes, rape, murder, kidnapping of children in Ukraine, let alone that they invaded another country.

18:26And they would still like to, according to US intelligence right now, all the reporting is that Vladimir Putin has not abandoned his maximalist aims on Ukraine and would still like to go for them. And there is Marco Rubio, who was once one of the more pro-transatlanticist senators. OK, here's a little twist for you that I heard this morning from a very smart American writer. So what this writer is arguing is that what is happening in Saudi Arabia and the peace talks around Ukraine at the moment is part of the Russification of the United States, where you have billionaires spending money, doling out flattery to the president to get access and potentially business contracts.

19:15And you also have increasingly question marks over whether the U.S. state is committed to neutrality, particularly when it comes to the issue of justice and the rule of law. And that would bring us to the story of Eric Adams, which we are going to speak about in the second half of the program. We'll take a quick break. Stay with us for that.

19:41Hi, everybody. Dominic Sandbrook from The Rest is History here. Now, as you can probably tell from the noise of the pool, I am joined by a friend of the show, Anthony Scaramucci. And Anthony and I have a very special announcement. on Sunday, the 30th of March. Antony is over in the UK and we have decided to do a live show together at the Theatre Royal Drury Lane in London. Haven't we, Antony? We have. You know, and thank God I'm not British because the Brits actually admire my American riveste attitude about life, okay? But in any event, okay, it'll be the first time on stage with Dominic. I am very excited.

20:21We're going to be doing a show on U.S. political history called The Rest is Assassinations from Lincoln to JFK. But Dominic and I both know on the 30th of March, 2025, it's the 44th anniversary of the attempted assassination on Ronald Reagan. So there's not only assassinations here, which are terrible, but there's an attempted assassination, several of them, Dominic, right, throughout U.S. history. and so we're excited to go through this and what the impacts were on American history and global history. Right and there's so many great stories so obviously JFK you and I disagree about JFK because I of course think it was Lee Harvey Oswald acting alone and you think differently but there are other stories you mentioned attempted assassinations so for example FDR.

21:11FDR was almost shot before his inauguration in 1933 and that's an attempted assassination that really could have changed the course of history because no FDR. Does the United States still enter the Second World War? Does the story of the 20th century play out completely differently? So there is so much to talk about, and I'm really, really looking forward to doing it. What are you looking forward to most, Anthony? Well, I mean, all of that, but I want to delve into a little bit of the Secret Service and some of the men in that service. Clint Hill is still alive. He was riding alongside of Jackie and John Kennedy on the 22nd of November of 1963.

21:46and we'll talk about what he saw. We'll talk about what other agents have written about recently. And of course, now that Donald Trump is releasing the JFK assassination files, I think there'll be a lot to talk about there. I think people coming to the show are going to learn things that have never been said or heard before. So the listeners, if you're not excited by that, I don't know what would excite you, frankly. Pre-sale tickets are available this Friday, the 21st of February at 10 a.m. UK time for our founding members of the Rest is Politics US. You'll get an email with the link before the sale begins.

22:23If you're not a member, just go to therestispoliticsus.com to sign up. And if you're a subscriber on Apple Podcasts, send us an email on tripus, T-R-I-P-U-S at goalhanger.com to get your pre-sale link. General sale for this event will be open to the public on Monday, the 24th of February at 10 a.m. UK time. We'll send out the link on the rest is history and the rest is politics. U.S.'s social media feeds. We absolutely expect to see you there in the West End on Sunday, the 30th of March. And to tell you the truth, what I'm really hoping is that on the night, Anthony will finally reveal the truth behind the JFK assassination.

23:11Well, I'm probably going to Guantanamo for many reasons, Dominic, but that would be probably the top one. But anyway, I think you'll learn a lot. There'll be a lot of insight we'll provide and also provide great context on American and British and global history.

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24:39Welcome back to The Rest is Politics US with me, Katty Kay, still in Washington, where it is still grey, still rainy. And that was your weather forecast from the nation's capital. How's your weather forecast, Anthony? Could somebody pass me those Oakley sunglasses, please? Okay, that's enough. It's getting a little bit too bright here. For those of you watching, it is worth, guys, I know you were listening to this on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Just flip over to YouTube for one second and do yourself a favor. And look at the site of Mr. Scaramucci in Sunshine in the Caribbean.

25:11We go on vacation. When we go on vacation, we actually take, I am going to take another vacation just to prove the point that we go on vacation. The woman was on a yacht. She's like, I don't want anybody to know I'm on the yacht. She's like hiding the camera. It's like unbelievable. You have done. You know, you've done me some favors. You've done me some favors. I will now, I will flash off the yacht next time around. OK, flash the yacht. Even your British friends like it, OK? Even they like it. They don't care. Talking of being flashy, I think it's worth putting the story that we're about to talk about, which might seem like a domestic New York City local government story in the context of the extraordinary change that is taking place in America right now.

25:50And as this journalist who I was on television with, writer I was on TV with today, was explaining it, he just put it so well, which is that America is becoming Russified. And by that, he meant you've got these billionaires who are queuing up to try and buy influence, succeeding potentially in buying influence. You've got a billionaire who has a sort of a government position, cutting areas of the government where he has direct conflicts of interest. And we're just told, being told to trust that he has his own conflicts of interest sorted out and that he won't do anything that is puts himself in an advantageous position with no evidence given for us.

26:29But in the case of Eric Adams, the mayor, and I want you to explain the story in a second, who had a very compelling indictment against him and has just had that lifted for political reasons. It gets to the question of what is the rule of law in the United States? Is there still fair rule of law where nobody is above the law, where the state is acting in a way that is neutral? Because I would argue that the case of the mayor of New York is the most obvious and egregious example of where America is becoming more like an oligarchy where the rule of law no longer applies and can no longer be counted on.