125. Question Time: Murdoch mayhem, the politics of nepotism, and Alastair Campbell MP?

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0:50Welcome to the Restus Politics Question Time with me, Rory Stewart. And me, as to Campbell, and Rory, we should reward somebody by the name of Simon Beal, because he has been putting this question in week after week after week after week. And he hasn't given up an in my new book, which I can now show you right there is my new book. And I've invented a word which is Persevilliance. Persevilliance is the combination of Persevilliance and resilience. So this guy, Simon has had the setback of not having his question answered, but he's Persevilliant, and therefore he's a very Persevilliant character.

1:29And his question is quite a tough one. What role does Nepotism play in public life? Have you ever been the beneficiary of it and or provided it? Well, I think in a sunny and political life, there's much less, I think, than people outside think there are. I mean, Nepotism, of course, as everyone knows, is about favoring your own family, generally your own kids. And what actually has changed in British politics is that it was a very, very strong factor, obviously, in the 19th century, people like Winston Churchill, you know, his father had been charged with the X -JECA, his grandfather had been in Parliament, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

2:08Nowadays, there are MPs who have parents in Parliament on both sides of the House, or Labour MPs who have, in fact, the Labour MPs whose both his parents were in the House and who I think is married to a member of Parliament. Ah, Joel Cryer! Son of Anne Cryer and Bob Cryer both form a Labour MPs, and of course, he's married to Ellie Reeves, whose the Labour MP for Louisian West and whose sister is Rachel Reeves, the current shadow chancellor of the X -JECA. How about that? Anyway, on the conservative side, the people who had parents who were in the House Commons were people like Nicholas Somes, who of course was Churchill's grandson, Dominic Grieve, Andrew Mitchell, Richard Benion, Andrew Mitchell, yeah.

2:46And many of these people actually were more on the left of the party. They were in something called the One Nation Dining Club with me. And in a sense, it seemed that the fact that they were children of MPs gave them a sort of slightly more left of centre type of conservatism, less strident. I mean, Dominic Rob, who we've been talking about a great deal, his dad, Peter, came from Czech Republic of the age of six on a kinder transport, became a food manager M &S, died when Dom was 12. So definitely, you know, an example of a very different route, which is true of many MPs. I guess what Simon means by the question in Russian nepotism, where maybe it is more apparent, is that you do see an awful lot of MPs who employ members of their family.

3:30Now, I've spoken to MPs whose wives run their constituency office, and they say actually because it means that they don't have to pay them, and they just kind of run it, and it's almost like it's part of the marriage. But, and then, you know, one of my, one of my sons, Calum, he worked for the Labour Party for a while. And I actually think in a weird sort of way, it can be worse for the child of the person who's well known. I think Calum used to get really fed up at people say, well, that sounds to Campbell's son. I think sometimes it can be harder if you're coming from what is perceived as nepotism.

4:05My daughter Grace, who is, you know, as a comedian, she does a whole story about how, which is a true story, by the way. She says that once before a Manchester United man at M &S, she was, she was in the tunnel as the players were coming out. She says, because that's how nepotism works. So you can, I think that's the only place where I have, it's actually been the fact that I can get invited to stuff, and because I'm feeling guilty about not being there when I should be, I will phone the kids and say, if I get, you know, I can get your tickets from this and get your tickets from that, what do you think?

4:35I guess that's the sort of nepotism maybe I indulged in from time to time. Good. John, having recently read Prelude to Power and enjoyed it very much, by the way, I was struck by Alice's wavering if whether to leave mainstream journalism and take the job of the Labour Party, it made me wonder if either Rory or Alice to have ever regretted a career move. Well, I regretted, although I regretted the move when I was a journalist, when I left the Daily Mirror to go and work for Eddie Shah's today, newspaper, because I ended up having a nervous breakdown. Now, I don't actually regret the overall experience, but I made, I definitely made the wrong decision in doing that.

5:11And I do regret, I regret not having stood as an MP myself. I do regret that. And I can explain why at every stage of the last 20 or 30 or 30 years, I've not done it. And I can explain why I don't want to do it now. But that is something that sort of nags away at me. What about you? I want to strongly encourage you to run to be an MP in the next election. It's not far away. It's a good option. Anyway, my biggest regret is I was running a charity in Afghanistan called Tecwa's Mountain. We were restoring the centre of the old City Cable, which is back in 2008. And I was absolutely loving it, working with a few hundred people, bringing water supply sanitation with both a clinic.

5:55And I built the whole thing from scratch. I'd started with one employee who was my driver, who I caught my logistics manager. And we were really making a daily difference out on the ground in Cable, living there for two -three years. And I then was approached by Harvard University to take a chair, a professional chair at Harvard University, and be the director of a centre. And I was flattered into doing it. It just appealed to my ego. I was like, yes, that's what I'm with me. Exactly what I'm with me. I was flattered into believing that I had it in me to be the youngest news editor in Fleet Street.

6:26I was going to be a news editor at 28. And it was a stupid decision. That's exactly right. So I thought, this is amazing. And Mike says, hold on that, I guess I was in my mid 30s, but full Harvard professor in my mid 30s. And actually it didn't suit me at all. I would have been I'm much, much more enjoyed managing two -three hundred people on the ground than Afghanistan. And then I did trying to run an academic centre. Georgy Kote and he is, I'm guessing from that name, French Canadian, because his question is, he posted an opinion poll suggesting that the Canadians seem reluctant to have Charles as king.

7:02And he says, do you think we could see a surge of republicanism in the Commonwealth in the next few years? So he posted a poll which showed a minority in favour of continuing with the monarchy. I think it's always alive as you. I think republicanism of all sorts has been a live political issue for many, many years. And in some ways Britain is unusual, still having a monarchy when most countries around the world lost. And there was that famous joke of the king of Egypt, that in the end, there were going to be only five kings left. The king of hearts, the king clubs, the king of diamonds, the king of spades, and the king of England.

7:39But I think, and I would say this, but I do think that King Charles has approached the job very well. I think Prince William has a good reputation. And I think it's the British monarchy isn't quite a strong position. I don't think there's anything at the moment which makes me think that people are liable to push. But there are Commonwealth countries, of course. King Charles, when he was Prince Wales, one of the things he had to do last year, I think, was to go out to the Caribbean, to visit a country that had decided they didn't want the royal family anymore. I think he dealt with it very, very well.

8:18I don't think there's any sort of resentment there. I think he gave a good speech and engaged well and left with very warm feelings. But one thing that's changed, I mean, the queen remember when she took over, went on a, I think, seven months tour around all these different places. And I think increasingly that the royal family are maybe spend less time or have maybe spent less time in other places. And I think that the pressures of distance are significant. I've just found the poll while you were talking and it's 60 % say they don't want Charles of King. Right. It's quite high. Quite high. Yeah, but interestingly, these things go up and down, don't they?

8:55There was, there was a moment in Australia, where, 23 years ago, where people really thought that that was going to be the case. And then that seems to turn around again. And I do think I've even Fiona, who is, you know, not exactly, she's not only exactly the same page as you when it comes to she did say the day, she's, God, could you imagine if some delight Boris Johnson became an audience president? That's, I think that's a good, good line. I think it's, I think that's right. I think you would hope that Tony Blair would become the elected president, but it could be Boris Johnson, at which point you do worry a bit.

9:28Right. Next question from discord. So it courage people to go on discord. Discoord is our stream where debate's happening. And it's from somebody who calls themselves NOS or PhD. Honestly, I can't believe how many times the question of what happened, why isn't the US the harboring of democracy anymore can be asked on this podcast. And at no point the people wonder, oh, wait, maybe it never was. Maybe the country didn't magically go from sponsoring crew after coup in the 60s, 70s and 80s to magically being the world force for democracy in the 90s. What do you make of that? I think that is a PhD.

10:04Not a PhD. I think there's a great PhD question there. Now there's a very, very fair point in that partly because American less so on the Trump, but most American presidents, they talked so much about America as the leader of the free world as the great democratic force. But actually, there is something in that about there, about there, you know, we've talked about this a lot. We talked about it within a reclint. There's a mixed picture about America's role in the world. Good. And also this is another chance to plug my favorite book, Norman Mayla's, Harlett's Ghost, which is all about the CIS sponsoring these coos at exactly that period.

10:42And actually, it's a very, it makes essentially making this point, which not a PhD is making, which is, in a sense, the dark, troubling heart of American democracy is the weird connection between these, these authoritarian special operations and it's claimed to be democracy. Here's a question for you. Veron is Rupert Murdoch losing it, paying out $787 .5 million and firing Tucker Carlson, the Jewel and the Fox News crown. Is he losing it? Well, he's in his 90s. He's getting on for sure. The Fox News settlement was, must have been a very, very, very difficult moment for him, but thoroughly deserved because Fox News entire business model is founded on the exploitation of the three things that we talk about the whole time, populism, polarization and post truth.

11:34Tucker Carlson is, you know, the question that calls him the Jewel and the Fox News crown, Tucker Carlson is an absolute populist, polarizing, post truth. And the reason why this became such a, the settlement with the people who'd done the diminutive voting machines, yeah. The reason that's been so damaging is because the reality was exposed between what they were saying on air, presenting themselves as arbiters of, you know, as they call it, fair and balanced news, bullshit. And at the same time, what they were privately thinking, which is, you know, this is absolute nonsense. Now, Tucker Carlson became the, the guy who was kind of leading that on air as it were, but he wasn't the only one and the truth is, within that organization, they all knew that that's the game.

12:24By the way, it was the game from the word go. And it's why I think, although GB News is seen as a bit of a joke by a lot of people, it's why we have to be very, very careful. Once you establish that it's normal for a country's main television channel, Fox News, which is Watch More Now than CNN, when it's accepted that lying and to feed your base to be, to be, to be nice to your viewers, to make them hear what they want to hear. That is very, very dangerous. And I think we've got to be very, very careful. We don't get the same thing here. You've interviewed Brian Cox on our leading podcast. And I believe that in the settlement case with Jerry Hall, there was a clause put in saying that she couldn't give any information to the producers of succession.

13:12One of the interesting things also, I thought we were talking about earlier about speaking trees to power. And I thought of an interesting revelation on Murdoch came out of the end of the trial. So at the end of the trial, the general counsel of Fox, which, you know, that senior lawyer, said to Murdoch that he'd done well. He said, I'm just going to say it. They didn't lay a finger on you. And Murdoch has the self -knowledge to disagree. He pointed a finger at the lawyer who'd questioned him for dominion. And he said, I think he would strongly disagree with that. And Nelson, who was the man who was doing the questioning, said, indeed, I do.

13:48And I thought that was interesting with all his weaknesses in his 90s. He's not totally blown up with his own legend. If one of his staff is flattering him, when he knows he's screwed up, he can still call it out in public. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I did a, I don't know, I don't like doing those interviews. You know, you do, I'm sure you get asked to do lots as well. We do interviews for broadcasters who are preparing obituaries. I don't like doing them. But I did do one the other day for Murdoch. And they're asking everybody at the end, Murdoch forced for good or forced for bad over his lifetime. And I'm afraid I was very much forced for bad.

14:23I think ultimately, Murdoch's impact upon politics and media around the world, there were, there have been amazing things that he's done. There's no doubt about that. But I think particularly the impact of Fox News on America and some of these journalistic habits here ultimately have been a force for bad. Yeah. We got a very nice message from a guy called Theodevis Lewis, who amongst other things, he's, he's politically active down in Wells, but he also writes with the, the spectator. And he asks, he wants us to talk about something, which has also been raised by, I'm going to have to say this in Welsh because the name of the person is clearly something in Welsh.

15:00But I don't know what it means, is fouch sinness. I hope that is sort of vaguely. Anyway, the question is this, there is so much huffing and puffing about the official adoption of the native banal, banal bricheniog. Do you know about this one, Roy? You can still call them the Brecken Beakens. It's okay. Very little coverage of the main project for dramatic change in policy to combat climate change and tourist pollution damage. That should be the story. And Theo Davis Lewis has written a piece in the spectator about this. So basically, the Brecken Beakens have been renamed in Welsh. Okay. So the official name is, now the truth is, according to Theo Davis Lewis, it always was.

15:39And yet it's become the latest sort of woke thing, Nigel Farage is saying, this is absolutely awful. And what the north that we do, and we can't call them the Brecken Beakens anymore, you can call them the Brecken Beakens. But it is actually part of Wales. And they are calling it this because then they're making it part of a bigger, a bigger thing about tourist pollution damage. And I think it's a very, very sensible thing to do. And what I think this is actually is a bit of a kind of anti -welshaness and also anti -welshaness language. We talked about the language recently. Well, she's one of the top 50 most influential languages in the world, according to the latest edition, the world language barometer.

16:16So let's hear it for the world's language, Rory. Very good, very good. That maybe was not your best question ever, given that you began answering it from the moment she got to the end of it, having introduced it as a question to me. But we'll move on to a next question. You can still answer it. I think you did a good job there. And reaction to Biden visit. Brian Walsh, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts as to the coverage afforded by the British press with respect to the presidential visit diamond, North and South. Some has been borderline racist, perpetuating 19th century tropes and possibly revealing more about the individual author's worldview as much as providing any insightful commentary.

16:51Is this representative of the state of Anglo -Irish and Anglo -American relations? Well, we touched on this when we were in Belfast. I think there is an element of, I think it's more about actually us feeling very unsure in our own identity at a time when the Irish actually feel pretty confident, not least because they're projecting 6 % growth and we're sort of limping on along with Russia. So I thought the coverage, some of the coverage in the UK media of Biden's visit was absolutely ridiculous. I really do. I know you think he was a bit rude to the UK, but I just think he was wearing his Irish and Sony's sleeve.

17:29He was welcomed there, perhaps more than he had been in Belfast. And I just think the sort of, you know, the Andrew Nils and the GBBs people just threw their toys out of the problem. I was talking to a somebody in Belfast while we were there just when I was out in the streets. And he felt, for what it's worth, a real sense of hurt that Biden hadn't engaged more. He very much felt that the US had been absolutely vital to the Good Friday agreement, as you very much say, very much acknowledge. And he was very sad that he felt that Biden wasn't leaning in harder, spending more time in Northern Ireland getting directly involved.

18:10And I think that that that that was striking that he seems to have sort of, instead of doing what I think would have been more Clinton style, which has derotive sleeves up and say, okay, I'll get involved. He seemed to be more saying, search yourselves out, or if you don't, I'm not going to make a proper visit. Well, I think he'd, I think he'd done, he would argue, I think that he'd done the sleeves rolling in Washington when he met the parties and tried at the number 10s be haired to try and get them over the line because he's told that was that that's what what it required. And then when that, why not spend a day or two using his immense political capital and influence on the ground and bele faster that critical time?

18:48Yeah, I don't know the answer to that. But there was all this talk about there was going to be a state dinner and King Charles was going to go and all that kind of stuff. I don't know his answer, but he was always going to do that trip to Ireland. And I think that, you know, I, he looked the truth is, he's the president of America, he probably gets asked to go to every country in the world every day of the week. He has to make judgments about he uses time. The other thing, the optics, I think, they may have thought that the optics of him being around around the Good Friday agreement at time when Bill Clinton was there, Hillary Clinton was there, George Mitchell was there.

19:22There is an argument that he would look like he was trying to insert himself into something that was actually about something else. I don't know. Here's a good one, Dora, for you, you can definitely answer this one. I will just be quiet. Gibson Fender is Tony Blair still the best politician in the UK, unpopular opinion for sure, but who since he left has been better? Come on. I remain extremely grumpy, like many of us about the Iraq war and think that revealed something troubling about him. At the same time, obviously, spending more time with you and seeing a bit of him, I have been very, very struck by his energy, his intelligence, his skillet communication, his commitment.

20:01So I think you, you mount a very, very powerful defensiveism. Is it the question who's the best politician or the best ex -primingister? Well, the question is who since he left has been better? It's very difficult to compare people who've not been prime ministers to people who've been prime ministers haven't they? And would you say any of the prime ministers have been better? No, I'm probably not as an effective prime minister, although I would say that I have a much profound affection for Theresa May. I like her very much as a person. I think she's a wonderful kind of, I love her values. I will say as well, for Theresa May, when you couldn't stay to do Mary McElise, but Mary McElise was very, very nice about Theresa May.

20:42Add us a lot of questions asked, including some quite serious ones we're going to get to happen to. So let's just take a quick break.

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22:31Welcome back to the rest of politics question time with me, Roy Stewart. And me, Alex Campbell. Charlie O 'Neal. Yeah. As you've both done many, many TV and radio interviews over your careers, what would you say are your favourite and least favourite TV or radio shows to go on and why? Well, I don't particularly like the comedy shows. So I did things like have I got news for you, but I feel a bit weird as the politician going on to what's fundamentally a comedy show. Yeah, I played my bank pipes all that one. Well, there we go. You see it's a good decision, good decision, always good decision.

23:08If any of I'd stuck to the piping a bit more and been a bit more serious, I would have been much more successful. I think I always enjoy the today program, love doing the today program. Happy doing the night. Love hard talk. Question time, I quite enjoy. How about you? I like the ones that I really, really like the late late show in Dublin. Always enjoyed doing that. I do like the longer form ones. I know what you mean about the comedy of things, but I like the ones where you can kind of not be the trouble with news night in the today program, those programs. I think people just go into a mode, the interviewers in a mode, the interviewers in a mode.

23:48I do remember when my first book came out, and of course, I'd had a lot of trouble with the today program over the whole Andrew Gilligan led to the Hutton inquiry, David Kelly's death, etc. So when my first volume of Darius came out, I was like the eight ten interviewer on the today program with John Humphries. And I think I'm right in saying it's the only time they ever went through the news and the sport. They just kept going. I think John Humphries was determined just to keep going until I the lamp tim or I'd just want to rag or whatever. So I like it when you do have a bit of, that's why I enjoy this podcast.