130. Question Time: Bumping into Boris Johnson, the Hong Kong handover, and One-nation Tories vs. Blairites

0:00Thanks for listening to the Restus Politics, sign up to the Restus Politics Plus to enjoy ad -free listening and receive a weekly newsletter. Join our members' chat room again early access to live show tickets. Just go to therestuspolitics .com. That's therestuspolitics .com. EdBlinds .com It's not just about window treatments. It's about you. Your style, your space, your way. Whether you DIY or want the pros to handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right. From free expert design help to our 100 % satisfaction Action Guarantee. Everything we do is made to fit your life and your windows.

0:32Because at Blinds .com, the only thing we treat better than Windows is you. Visit Blinds .com now for up to 40 % off site Y, plus a professional measure at no cost. Rules and restrictions apply.

0:50Welcome to the rest of this politics question time with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alistair Campbell. Now here's the first one, Rudeolf Hucka. How long are manifestos valid for? Are they actually worth the paper they're written on? Or are they more an aspirational wish list that can be ignored a week after the election as quotes? Circumstances have changed or quotes the state of finances were worse than we expected. Well, they are things that obviously matter because they can be used. They can be used a great deal in terms of the civil service. We've talked about some of the problems with ministers and civil servants, but where civil servants are very clear is that if something's in a manifesto They're very clear that they need to deliver it and one of the easiest way It's a getting policy through as a minister is a few consets in the manifesto And it's sometimes quite difficult getting policy through that isn't in the manifesto from that point of year It matters also in terms of the House of Lords.

1:41There's a convention the House of Lords doesn't block legislation that's in the manifesto and It's also can be used by the whips to impose a three -line weapon members to say, look, this was in the manifesto you've got to vote it through, although that doesn't always work because often the MPs will point out quite rightly, and this is one of the paradoxes, that the manifesto is written secretly, they're not informed about it, and it's released a few days before the general election, and most the MPs are campaigning without having had a chance to really read the manifesto. Yeah, but I think the process of manifesto development is pretty long.

2:14We had a process in 1997, we had a document called The Road to the Manifesto, which was, it was partly a campaigning document, but it was also a policy document. And I think we're back to our favourite, one of our favourite, not favourite, but one of our most regular topics of the impact of populism in a particular in our country of Johnson. If you have somebody who puts at the centre of the manifesto his oven ready deal, which turns out to be nothing like an oven ready deal, and on so many other issues, basically says, well, that was then, this is now, everything's changed, nothing matters. I can remember when in 2001, before we started planning the 2001 campaign, we did a line by line analysis of our manifesto, and we worked out, I think it was well over 80 % that we had managed to deliver of the central promises that we've made, and including a lot of quite so -called small issues.

3:04So I think it should matter, and I think that I completely agree with you, as well as the constitutional role, the laws, etc. I think actually having manifestos can be what give a government its sense of direction. And that's why what Labour is doing now is so, so important in terms of what they do as a government. One of the most controversial ones that hit my life very strongly was Theresa May in 2017 trying to deal with the biggest scandal in British public life even today, which is adult social care. In other words, we created the NHS, we never completed it by providing proper care for the frail elderly.

3:38Many people are my constituency being seen 15 minutes in a day, which is barely long enough to change someone, let alone sit with them or help them get a meal. Tried to put in the manifesto an idea that you could take money from people's homes because that's another problem in Britain, which is the huge discrepancy in wealth between the people who own property and the people that don't, the 60 % who own property, who tend to be older and much, much better off than the young people who don't own property. Tried to put those two things together and took an enormous potential majority. She was on course for 230 seat majority into an election on the basis that manifested largely ended up in a situation where she didn't secure majority at all and crippled the whole Brexit process from that onwards.

4:21Yeah, I saw you were going to to mention the Labour attack. That was what they call the death tax, wasn't it? Exactly. Yeah, and I was disappointed by that because I thought Jeremy Corbyn would actually work cross -party on that outside of Karen could see the arguments around this. But I guess he in the end had more of the ruthless politician in him than I perhaps acknowledged. That is a very, very good example of where I guess she was thinking of trying to do the right thing for the long term, but short term politically, it did, as you say, a massive amount of damage. And the O 'Brien here, do you have any thoughts on freeports, which is so -called Brexit benefit?

4:55And the T -Sive freeport, which is being excellently investigated by private eye, does there appear to be something dodgy going on? Now, this is really interesting, because I'm reading a book at the moment called Crack Up Capitalism, which relates to the book I often mentioned about and written about the sovereign individual. And it's focused on all these particularly Chinese investments around the world, but where these special zones are being created that essentially become free of democratic and economic controls that have democratic underpinning. And that I have always felt is what this whole free -port thing, charter city movement is about and it is interesting to me that private eye seems to be virtually solo looking into this and have come up with some absolutely eye -popping revelations which the rest of the media just seemed to be normal.

5:46These are fascinating things aren't they? I think the Chinese influence has cleared this. The big examples of this were originally these special economic zones created near Hong Kong, places such as Xinjiang, which were the part of Dongxiangping from the early 1980s liberalizing the Chinese economy and he basically said that these areas would be outside normal Chinese communist control to allow them to develop and they were incredibly successful and I guess the idea of these movements they were also championed by a chief economist of World Bank who was very keen on them is that you could create little Hong Kong's or little Singapore's which could become these kinds of capitalist dreams situations with very very little regulation, very business friendly, where you could make these big dramatic investment decisions.

6:31I mean, traditionally, two problems when one of them was you pointed out is that, of course, by circumventing the normal regulations and constraints, you potentially get into big problems on environmental stuff, because that's often what's holding back these investments as people's concerns about the environmental impact. The second thing, of course, the treasury would say is that often they simply displace economic activity that a smarter move is, if you've got a real problem with over -regulation is to get rid of that regulation across the whole country, so the economy of the whole country can grow, rather than just doing it in these isolated geographic areas.

7:04Yeah. Yeah. Here's a question for you. Julian Ray. As you're both well placed to answer this, what are some of the key ideological differences between a traditional blareite and a one -nation conservative? Both of whom claim to occupy the center ground in contemporary British politics? Well, I can't possibly speak for one -nation conservative. I think there are. I suppose what new Labour was trying to do was to bring together the sense of economic efficiency and a commitment to a well -functioning market economy alongside values and principles that related to what is broadly called social justice.

7:47So a belief that the state can achieve social justice, a belief that you don't just leave everything to the market. And I think within that is a question of scale. And I think, it's interesting, when I listen to you defending yourself as still an effective to being conservative, it always feels to me that a lot of it is about cultural and historical stuff as opposed to actual workings of the modern economy. I think on a lot of that, I think we'd find that we'd agree, but I think we'd disagree probably in areas of possibly in areas of tax and spend, possibly a various in relation to the prioritization of public services and in particular in my case, in my view, education, the need to make education for the many a goal of the nation, etc.

8:30So I think it's they're they're in broadly the same, the same center part of the ground there, I think there is a center left and a center right, but some of the values are the same. Is that fair? Yeah, I think so. We played out in the podcast and we because because people sometimes, Jesus, and say, you're not really disagreeing agreeably that much, you agree on too much. And it's true. I mean, there was an article in the, I think it's in the spectator pointing out that broadly speaking, you know, we agree on the European Union, we both, you know, were people who voted against Brexit and can both see the damage of this.

8:59We're both passionately anti -Boris Johnson. But I think that disguises some significant disagreements. I think being passionately anti -Boris Johnson is just a sensible thing that most people in United Kingdom should feel almost regardless of what political party they come from. It's worth bearing in mind that these centrist positions are connected to political parties. So Tony Blair still has to navigate the history of the Labour Party, the culture of the Labour Party, the left wing of the Labour Party. And David Cameron, Theresa May, still has to navigate the right wing of the Conservative Party and the traditions of the Conservative Party.

9:35And that means that tonally they end up being a bit different. So So you will tend to hear the Labour Party being much more sympathetic, for example, towards strike action, even if Kierstammer himself won't come out clearly for it. You'll hear on the tone of what's around him that he'll be more sympathetic towards strikes. Again, the Conservatives will tend to be more sympathetic even on the centre towards the idea of deregulation, efficiency, being pro -business, being in favour of smaller governments. So, yeah, we're all in favor of pragmatically regulated free market. We're all trying to balance social justice, compassion and market economics.

10:13But I think the left -right split remains in the way that we view the world. And I think it's also part of the secret is in the word conservative, which is that conservative centrist tend to be still a little bit suspicious of radical change, not very revolutionary inclined to believe in gentle evolution with a lot of respect for the past and history. There's a lot of, if it ain't broke, don't fix it going on in the conservative tradition, which maybe isn't so much there in the Labour tradition. No, that's why I think when you say, you keep saying that you think I'm becoming more left -wing, I think it's probably that.

10:49I actually think that we do need a pretty big shake -up of an awful lot of things. And when we talk about Canada and the main podcast, there's a debate going on in Canada at the moment about whether the Liberal Party Trudos Party, which is centre left, should actually do some sort of formal or informal pre -electural tie -up with the new Democratic Party, you know, a little bit like the discussion going on now between Labour and the Lib Dems. Now here's about the coronation, Rory, we shall. Thinking of the coronation, what were the official engagements you were forced to sit through that made you feel most uncomfortable annoyed or gave you the ik.

11:27Do you know about the ik? Obviously. But it's giving you the ik. Giving you the ik. My daughter graced as a whole sketch about the ik. The ik is basically stuff that gets on your nerves. The French would say, oh, me, are they probably? What would the Germans say? Oh my god. Maybe the Germans never, maybe nothing gets on the Germans nerves. Maybe. It does. It does. It does. Well, listen, I'll think about the German while we're talking, But tell me I've got one that is so brilliant, even thinking about it now gives me a headache. You go first. My mind is primed as questions. Nothing made me more disgusted, uncomfortable, than both sides roaring the often incredibly trivial questions.

12:10I'd be desperate for somebody to ask about some big national or international issue and somebody standing up saying, will the primers congratulate my local football team on that this and the other? And I just felt it was the most kind of trivial embarrassing, badly behaved, disgrace that, and it was right at the heart of the British political system. So that was my least favorite part of every week. Well, the one that came to my mind when I was, when I saw that question, it was the Hong Kong handover. I felt deeply uncomfortable throughout the whole thing. Partly was because he was pissing with rain.

12:45I was, I don't know why, because I tried to avoid those things. I didn't think I should be placed in the sort of official setup. I think I was alongside William Hagen, Paddy Ashtown. And I'd spend most of the day with your good friend, now King Charles. That's my only time I've ever been on Britannia. And also with Chris Patton, who was in a very, very grumpy mood all day and talking about Jew herds of the butchers, the Chinese. But it just felt, it really felt strange. And then I think, I may have told you before, I found this watching on as these Chinese soldiers were there, all terrifyingly exactly the same height and looking incredibly disciplined and incredibly strong.

13:26I mean, it just felt like a very, very sort of weird sad day, so I didn't enjoy that at all. I was there too, and I remember the rain, and I was in the, I wasn't in the posh box you were in, I was standing in the rain at the other side of the stadium, but it was a pretty, pretty extraordinary day. At least you got to the coronation, though, or I didn't get invited to go to the coronation. Speaking of which, question for you from John Gorman, just before that, I think, I think, sorry, I think the Germans, I don't know about a German word of the eight, but I think they would say, desigate me at Alfty Nervan, it gets on my nerves.

13:57I think that's what they say. It gets on my nerves. Gosh, oh, that sounds very sort of strangely literal, literally, up to the English. Yeah, well, they probably, I could be right, any German listeners who know a translation of the eight. One big word, yeah, I was talking for one enormous salon. John Gorman, the king's champion featured on the coronation in previous times, he would ride a horse into the coronation banquet, throw down his gauntlet and challenge anyone who doubted legitimacy of the king. Which political figure would you pick as your champion to fight your corner if you were king?

14:33You first, Gorman. Who's going to be my champion, Goplin? Well, I guess John Prescott had a pretty good, pretty good right hook, didn't he? It was a left jab. Left jab, was it left jab? Yeah, left jab. No, John would definitely be a good champion, but John would, you know, I think this needs to be somebody who's got a sort of, I want them to be elegant and eloquent and possibly carry a sword. So I think I'm going to do a cross party and go for Penny Morden. I think Penny Morden would be my champion. Penny Morden, how about the rock? No, not into the rock. Not into the rock, no. Okay. Burnley, by the way, we've just had a big investment in from a guy called JJ Wat to apparently is one of the greatest NFL players of all time, American footballer.

15:17So he could be a good champion, he's very big and he's quite rockish. So yeah, I'll go for JJ Wat. No, I'm going to go for Ashley Barnes. Ashley Barnes, what do you think of that already? Ashley Barnes. Ashley Barnes sounds very good. I'm going to be strongly approving of Ashley Barnes. Why would that be? I have no idea because he sounds like a footballer doesn't he? He's just He's just played his last game for Burnley and he's been an absolute legend of the club for the last ten years. So I'm going to give Ashley Barnes as my champion. And you're not going to go for huge Scandinavians who score goals against Burnley?

15:48No, because you remember that, don't you? You do remember that. No, I'm definitely not going to go that. Chris Harris, is it ever awkward bumping into people that you've criticised on the podcast or elsewhere? For example, if Rory had to bump into Boris Johnson at the King's coronation, how do you deal with that? when you're really really bump into it. I'd find that very, very difficult. In fact, occasionally I have sort of sight nightmares about it because obviously I worked alongside him closely, worked for him and used to talk to him many times a day. And I've become so angry with him and so critical of him.

16:22I don't know what would happen if I actually ran into him. I think probably I'd have to avoid him because I think any conversation would be incredibly stilted and artificial and insincere. How about you? I actually have this thought. Every time I go to the theatre, I think, what would I do if I ended up just purely by chance sitting along from Boris Johnson in the theatre if he turned up at the theatre or at the cinema? And I think what I'd do is just before the play started when they came out and said, you can you switch off your mobile phones, I would stand up and say, a few years ago, there was a referendum in this country and there was a vote of people.

16:58But I would like to have a vote of people in this theatre who would prefer that the person who led that campaign was not in the same audience and did not contaminate the play by his presence. Who we have a vote? I'd like to do that. Has that been childish? Well, that's quite aggressive. Goodness, that is quite an aggressive move. Have you... are there other people that you've had such a bad relationship with that you just avoid them, you'd rather not speak to them? How about Andrew Gilligan? How about if you found yourself... Oh, that's a good one. That's a very good one, actually. No, I actually did find myself in his company.

17:30I think it was, it might even have been a Tory party conference because I was there talking about alcoholism or something. And I went to a meeting, we might be in Labour, I can't remember, it was in Bournemouth. And I noticed he was there, so I decided to just ignore him. But then he sort of sidled up alongside me and was trying to get a conversation going and I'd completely ignore them. And then he wrote a piece saying, you know, can't we let bygones be goodbyegones kind of thing. No, something like him I would never give the time of day, but I wouldn't feel uncomfortable about sort of being in his presence.

18:00I think you've got to, you know, the fact is when we debate stuff and we're, you know, with political opponents, I think it's, you know this. I mean, it's like a question time. People can sort of tear lumps off each other and it's all sort of go out of a dinner with David Dumbledore, Fiona Briece or whatever. So I think you've just got to rise above it, really. I'm sure there are lots of people who avoid me like the plague, but you know, let them get on with it. Very good. Right, Addison, lots more questions to come, so let's just take a quick break.

18:31This isn't ad from BetterHelp. At the moment, we're getting advice from everywhere. You just have to go on TikTok. Could be Alice's cold plunges. Could be my attempts to meditate or the digital detox that I'm doing in Colombia. But of course, one of the things that we know is that it can be incredibly valuable to talk to another human being, somebody who's actually been trained as a therapist to work through these ideas calmly objectively and professionally. And as the largest online therapy provider in the world, better help can provide access to mental health professionals with a very diverse variety of expertise.

19:07They've got over 5 ,000 therapists in the UK. They've helped more than five million people globally and you can join a session literally at the click of a button. Change therapists anytime. So obviously not about fixing you, but it's about hearing yourself clearly, maybe for the first time. So talk it out with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10 % off their first month at BetterHelp .com slash Rest Politics. That's better H -E -L -P .com slash Rest Politics.

19:45And chasing this test, what about character backpacks? We've got them starting at 12 .99! Burlington's done it again! How about sneakers for the kids? 8 plus brands and right on trend starting at 11 .99! Saving is now in session. Burlington deals, brands, wow! Stalls and selections vary by location. Right now, with the Home Depot, you'll find stored solutions made to fit your needs. Grab an HDX tough tilt to protect your tools, or keep your sports equipment contained with reinforced snap fit lids, or stack up and make better use of your space with bins and totes built to last. Whatever your story, we've got the gear to keep it organized and protected at the Home Depot.

20:31How doers get more done? Gatorade is the number one proven electrolyte blend designed to hydrate better than water. So you can lose more sweat and raise your game. Gatorade, is it in you?

20:57Here's a very serious question. So Don Amuni on IPP sentences, maybe just before the question, very quickly to explain this. An IPP sentence is imprisonment for public protection. David Bunkett in 2003, a Labour Home Secretary, introduced a sentence where people could be given an indefinite sentence. It wasn't a life sentence, but it was a sentence where you were sent to prison. And it could be for quite a small offense, but you were then not allowed to be released from prison without special permission from the parole board, and you could be recalled immediately to prison for any minor breach, because you remained on license when you left.

21:37Quickly on her question, she's pointed out that the population has increased for the first time since it was abolished in 2012. So 10 years ago, the conservators said, they're no longer gonna allow these sentences to be given, but they're not gonna take away the sentences from people who got them during the labor government. So the suicides in 2022 were the highest they've ever been in any year since the IPP was produced in 2005. Do you think a revised action plan, as proposed by the government, will finally fix the issues and damage being caused? And her point here is that for IPP prisoners, it is the most horrifying existence.

22:11Because in many cases, it is effectively a life sentence. There are thousands of people in prison, all but 35 of them have served more than their tariff, so more than the fixed number of months they were supposed to serve. And they have no idea really under what conditions they're ever going to be released, because there's not very transparent information available to them on what they need to do to be allowed out. And they can be recalled very easily. And therefore, the suicide rate among them can be very, very high. And Donnamini who's asked the question, where is Hadith her brother was in IPP prisoner, who also died in prison?

22:44Anyway, any thoughts on IPPs? I mean, Labour brought them in in 2003, as you say. And I, this is probably because the whole Iraq thing was going on, I don't have that much of a memory of the process. And essentially, I assumed that a lot of it would have been to do with prevention of terrorism, such like. But actually, we're talking mainly about crimes of violence and often sexual offenses. But it's where the court believes that the offense doesn't merit a life sentence, but the offender poses a significant risk of serious harm to the public in the future. But I agree with you. You're basically, I can't imagine anything worse than being in prison and having no idea, even when, as you say, you've served your tariff, the minimum period you have to serve, but then you have no idea how or when you might be able to get released.

23:39And I think, as you say, the coalition government scrapped it, there'd been a number of reviews since then, and clearly there are going to be some cases that are very, very, very difficult, but there's still into four figures. The numbers came down for a while as you say they're going back up, but there's still not to four figures of people who were sentenced when this the IPP existed and are still in prison even though the previous government, the coalition government got rid of it. So it's something that I think we should be pushing both the current Conservative Law Chancellor and any future Labour government to abolish and also get rid of it on the people whom it was inflicted on because it's totally against fundamental principles of law.

24:20You're supposed to be able to be prosecuted and convicted and serve your tariff and when you've served your tariff you get released. And what this is allowing to happen is people to serve longer sentences than is laid down in law for them to actually serve for the offense they committed. And essentially people are being held on the idea that there's some even though there's no particular crime they've committed which justifies being held that long. They're just considered inherently least so dangerous, that they're not being allowed out. And that's a very, very dangerous person. I'm delighted it was abolished 10 years ago.