131. Erdoğan fights on, 'Clause IV on steroids', and the fall of military rule

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1:06Welcome to another episode of The Rest Is Politics with me, Alistair Kamel. And with me, Rory Stewart. And we're sitting in a very strange bar stool on a round table looking at each other and harrogate. Through two very large microphones. Through two very large microphones. You're fortunate to be able to see you over the top. You can't see me. You can't see you very well now. And we're going to later today doing a live show in harrogate. Very exciting. This of course is a place which was the home of the Gilbertan Sullivan seasons here. You're not doing Mass Men or again? No, it's a private event.

1:39Pirates of Penthouse. No, you can do Mass Menor. We have actually had a request for tonight for me to play Happy Birthday on the backpipes. That's very good. I might do that. Now there's a lot to get through. We had a I think quite a significant speech by Keir Starmer at the weekend. We've had these frankly bizarre conferences by groups, factions associated with the Conservative Party. We'll talk about the Turkish elections. I actually found the elections in Thailand more interesting. I've seen it's the no coverage in the UK media of it. We should talk about that as well. Very good. But let's start with Keir Starmer.

2:12I don't know if he's about time to read his speech, but he actually talked about how he felt the Conservative Party is no longer Conservative. Well, I like that all that stuff. I couldn't agree more with him on that. I thought that was very strong. So the centre of his speech, he says, as you said, that they've given up on family, they've given up on their international reputation. And he said, if people call me a Conservative, I'm not going to be ashamed of being a Conservative means those kind of things. So it was a nice push at that part of the speech towards the kind of conservatism I care about.

2:41However, what do you think about the speech as a whole? I thought it. It did a lot of things that I want him to do. It set out. It was much more rounded about the kind of state of the world and the state of politics than he's been up to now. It's still, I think, deliberately short on the big ticket policy stuff. But I think this line that he used about you're going to get close for on steroids, close for the big thing that Tony Blader did in 1994, changing the Labour Party constitution. I think what he's doing there is setting up the next stages. And he's going to have to be held to that now. I think once you start to say things like that, you've got to come up with the policy idea.

3:12Well, that's the tricky thing, just tell us where was it. Who was he speaking to? What was this? So it's a conference organised by a relatively new group called Progressive Britain, who are on the Progressive side of the Labour Party. Probably do want to push more on the on the big bold radical side of things rather than the Ming vars. But I thought it was one of, I really do think it was one of his better speeches. And I quite like that boldness of saying, we're coming on, we're bringing tanks onto your lawn. And do you know the other thing I think, this thing about the Conservatives? Like, if I think about you being a Conservative, I think your Conservatism is very much rooted in history, culture, tradition, not changing things unless you need to.

3:51And they come on, they want to change the sort of, wreck the health service, change the BBC, pollute our season rivers with unimaginable quantities of human wastage. And it's not very Conservative. And I thought that was a, that was a smart place to be. But then the next bit of his kind of journey of leadership, I think, is going to be about taking three or four big areas where the big policy ideas come. And that's what we have to see. Because as you say, if you're going to talk about Closfore and Starrads, I mean, Closfore was huge, probably the biggest thing that Labour Party had done. So Closfore and Starrads, I think quite understand what that can be, that's going to be bigger than Closfore.

4:28Closfore. I mean, I think this is another problem, isn't it? For all these politicians that they have in their minds these radical moves. So the Conservatives obviously completely obsessed with Margaret Thatcher. And one of their problems is that they keep like how they can outdo Margaret Thatcher. But of course, the thing she's done can't be done twice. Prioritisation, setting off Council houses, the restructuring economy, they're going to be able to do them again. He's not going to be able to get rid of Closfore twice. What's the big reform that he's going to bring to the Labour Party of Closfore?

5:00What he's talking about the reform of public services. But Closfore was a reasoning with the party. Yes, it was, but that's what we've talked a lot about, how leadership is about telling the party things it doesn't want to hear. People go on about Closfore, I think much more because of the symbolism of that change. It didn't really. Remind us what Closfore was. What did it say? Oh God, the ownership, common ownership and means of distribution and supply current, production and distribution. It was a faintly Marxist sounding force. Yeah. And it was something which the Labour Party no longer believed.

5:30Even Dennis Skinner didn't really believe in that as an economic policy. So it was symbolic. And then the policy change followed from that. And I think with these missions, I didn't event last night with Beth Riggby from Sky, and with the How -To Academy. And so about five or six hundred people there, obviously coming out on a Tuesday night to listen to me and Beth Riggby talk about a book about politics. They're interested in politics. Somebody asked a question about the missions, the five Labour missions. And I asked for a show of hands in the audience who has heard of the five Labour missions.

6:02It was a minority. So my point on that is that they've still got to communicate the basic picture that is going to get on the ground. There is a messaging problem. I'm not sure he's quite tightened his language enough. So there were three big words that he was selling the speech. Do you remember what those words were? I mean, I can tell you what they were saying. I don't want to put you on spot, but it's service, respect and stability. But even when you said service, respect, I mean, obviously I love that stuff. Sounds very conservative. I love service, respect, stability. But it doesn't exactly trip off the tongue.

6:36Does it service, respect, stability? There's a lot of estates going on. It's kind of him though. I think this respect thing I know goes very deep with them. Sybilance, service, respect. OK, OK. That's a minor linguistic point, I suppose, the major political strategic point. This respect thing is massive for him. There are also not action words. That's another thing, maybe. There's a communications expert. If I came to you and said my three big words in a run of campaign on service, respect and stability, it's not cool to action exactly. Yes, it. But Gordon, listen, Gordon ran on stability and did very, very well, but as a chance and a rather than as the leader of the party, you would want to say stability, and this was what Gordon rounded if you are the government because George Osborne was saying in our just a plug it, our leading interview, which is which is out this week, just go to your podcast feed, search for leading.

7:26Leading George Osborne, yeah. In that, he pointed out that basically, you've got two strategies, either you're in opposition, which case you say things got to change, or you're in government in which case you have to say stability, basically you have to say Gordon, Gordon, you had a good phrase for it, they didn't you? You said lot done, lots done, lots to do, lots to lose. Very good. And by the way, my friend Eddie Rammer in Albania has just had the best local election results ever. It's 55 municipalities to six, only lots done, lots to do lots to do. Now, obviously, Kirstal was not going to be particularly listening to me, but I think I do represent a certain kind of floating voter.

8:09And when I saw that speech, I felt there was still not enough optimism, vision and hope. There was quite a lot of, I mean, you did quite a lot on how dare they bail out the bankers and make poor people pay to bail out banks. Now, as far as I know, Labour Party policy at the time was to provide state support for those banks. He's not laying out what the alternative is there. That's a grudge from 2008 -09. What, who's he playing to there? Where's the constituency for that stuff? I think that's a sort of a Labour, a sort of strong tribal Labour base that really wants to hear the Tories get in the boot, put into them.

8:56And did Tony Blair do that? Did you feel you had to do that in 95 -96? Oh, yeah. Tony didn't like doing the sort of nasty negative stuff, but he could do it. I remember when he once, when he did John Maydrow, the dispatch box, weak, weak, weak, and you could feel the blow landing with each word. I remember he came out and said, God didn't like doing that, so he ever he did it. And I guess he did it on the ERM. He would have done it on the bailing out of the European centric. Yeah, that's a lot of stuff. I think a little bit of iron has entered Keir's soul post -Soonak. I think he's been quite taken aback by how quite nasty Soonak can be, all this lefty lawyer stuff and constant misrepresentation.

9:35He did it again the other day about the police numbers and the crime figures. So I think I don't know, I feel Keir's moved into a different gear, but I still, I agree where I agree with you. I still want more in that speech that says this is what Britain's going to be like if you have 10 years of a Labour government. And we like, I think there's a lovely phrase that John McCain loved, which is that people like voting for a politician who's a happy warrior. They like the sense of the confident happy optimism. Well, that was Johnston strength. That was Johnston strength, unfortunately. But it would be nice to see a little bit of that.

10:05Now should we talk about the Tories? Yeah, you're a lot. I'm in horrifying. So I'm looking at the list. So this is this is something that you've raised with us here and called the National Conservatism Conference in London, May 15th to 17th. Led in the confirms because Swella Braverman, Douglas Murray, Jacob Riesmog, Senator J .D. Vance from the US, Leanderson, Theodore Darrymple who writes these articles and the spectator grumbling about generally grumbling about people on benefits as far as I can remember, David Frost, John Hayes, Melanie Phillips, Nigel Bigger, who's this theologian Oxford who's been doing revisionist history on the British Empire.

10:43Darren Grimes, it's a pretty astonishing group of people. Terrific. Terrific. Also, I mean, Swella Braverman, she's the home secretary in a government led by Rishisunak, who yesterday was meeting Zelensky, the leader of the Ukraine, to talk about the next stage as an incredibly important military confrontation with Russia. And his home secretary is topping the bill at an organization, an event organized essentially to tell Rishisunak that is domestic political strategies or to cock. And some of the speeches Douglas Murray who you mentioned said it was talking about the, you know, there's nothing wrong with it.

11:21She had this thing about there's nothing racist about wanting to stop immigrants coming into the country. I always have a problem with people who start their centers with there's nothing racist about it. Usually it means they're going to go into exploit racism if they can. She, Douglas Murray made this speech where he said that just because the Germans mucked up a couple of times in the nice century, we, doesn't mean we should stop feeling proud about our nationality. I mean, that is a pretty amazing historical analogy. Jacob Riesmog, who sat in the cabinet when the VOTRID registration bill was being put through, attacked Sunak for doing it and said it was Gerrymandry.

11:53And Bravaman, this law, honestly, if this was at the left wing equivalent, the right wing papers would be going insane with this stuff. Bravaman made this joke about Kierstarmher, who doesn't know the difference between a man and a woman, maybe he'll be end up being the first woman leader of the Labour Party. I mean, there just is pathetic stuff. And then Danny Kruger had a big speech on the centrality of family and how stick together when we hate each other for the kids. It's pretty hard because it feels, including the inclusion of a US Republican senator in this. And also funded by an American think tank, it's all the sort of, where's the money coming from stuff, which never gets asked of the right.

12:35But very much, this is people leaning into American cultural issues. And of course, Leanderson, very central to all of us, who's the vice chairman of the party. Well, he's a guy who deficit chairman. He said out loud, you know, the last election we had Boris Brexit in Corbyn, we've got none of those at the next. We've got to have cultural wars and trams. But this is why I was talking to a conservative cabinet minister yesterday who was saying that it seemed likely, of course, that the conservatives will lose the next election. Is that what they think now? It's not exactly, that's what they think.

13:03That's not a big revelation, 21. But what was striking is how completely confident he was that when they lose, the leading candidates will be from the right and the party will lurch the right in response to loss. And that Swelabrafferman and Kami Badenak are the leaders to take over the party. Which, you know, what if Labour do get in, even with a small majority, it could be good for Labour. I think if the Tory party lurches into some sort of post -Ferragist eukipery of cultural nonsense, I think it's very, very bad for the country. Well, I agree with that. I agree with that. I agree with that.

13:33I agree with the country. So I did that policy's live programme. And Danny Krueger was on the panel, and so is Shamy Shakrabati. And Shamy and I didn't always agree about it. Danny Krueger was a big supporter of Boris Johnson. Was one of his private sectories before he was elected. Was one of the key members of the administration. I wonder how he reconciles his very strong Christian views on marriage with being a strong supporter of Boris Johnson. But what was really fascinating was, Shamy and I at one point were looking at each other because Danny Krueger was coming out of this stuff about, he was looking at us and pointing us and saying this leftist, so I think he said some morally transformative agendas.

14:09I was like, what the hell is he talking about? And then he comes up with his speech about, you know, couples who stay together for the kids. And I just thought the whole thing felt weird. I'll tell you the other thing that really made me laugh. You know the other organisers, we've talked about the the nat cons as they call themselves. But the day before he had the other one, the the the banaman, um, Kredus, Lord Kredus, Boris Johnson, Fan Club, what's he called, organisation of democratic something rather. And somebody sent me the clips of Pretty Patel, Nadine Dorees, Andrea Jenkins and Kredus.

14:41Speaking, you know that thing they have in the corner of the screen, which tells you how many people are watching online live. The highest was 66. And you were one of them? Well, I wasn't one of them. Somebody sent me, I reckon 25 of them, Motori MPs who've now got shows on GB news where they talked about this amazing conference that they were all at. But we do give them, we're probably doing it the same now. We're giving them far too much attention. But on Praveman, what, so when Riesmock came out and said to that conference yesterday, he said, we will be toast. We'll be finished if we try and change the leader again.

15:12I wonder if actually he was trying to signal in a very misleading way to soon act that his position is safe when actually it's not safe at all. Well, and of course, one of the extraordinary things is that Tori MPs always say that and then often go on and change leaders. I mean, it's a knee -jerk reaction. They said it will be toast to forget about us Johnson will be toast to forget about this trust. I think Riesmock did something which was brave and correct, which was to get rid of this bill, which was going to rip up EU legislation. But it's a very, very risky, dangerous thing he did within his party because he got elected on a manifesto.

15:46You remember he had a video of a shredder and that has really wound up the Brexit right to feel profoundly betrayed. And at that time, at exchange, you had on News Night, you had a, was it on News Night? What's that? At that time, at that time, at that time. Anyway, with that lady on, it was News Night, right? Yeah. Yes, News Night. In that, I noticed she was also laying into Riesmock and questioning whether he was really a Brexitier and saying that he had betrayed his promises and really believed in the whole project. So he's got a very, very difficult job trying to hold that discussion together.

16:20Well, she probably talked a little bit about the news and I think, but did that not damage Badenock as well because she's the one who had to be sent to the whole thing to the comms as being been. Yeah, I think it must be difficult for her. So that helps Bravaman? Probably does, yeah, probably does, although it might make, can you bad not paradoxically, there are still probably a hundred Tory MPs who see themselves more in the centre -led party. So do you think I strayed from the disagreeing, agreeably, path of enlightenment in the Riesjurt era of my life? Well, I don't know, I occasionally do it myself.

16:50What I notice being a sinner myself is that, is it certainly Shashana watching it doesn't like seeing either of us getting shouty. She didn't, I mean, when she was watching with me, she didn't particularly blame you for it, but she thought the whole tone of the thing as a watcher. You cease to take in the arguments and you begin to fend for. I'm just very glad that Fiona was in bed and didn't see it. And when she saw I was trending on Twitter the next morning, she said, what have you done? I said, I'll just on News Night last night, it was a bit of a problem and got to be aerated, she didn't watch it.

17:22So explain, tell us a bit about it, because you didn't watch it. So I'd put out a speech as I was doing that night about Europe, which I wanted to be about my desire that labour become a bit bolder on calling out the Brexit disaster. And because the Sue Nacket announced that they were scrapping the retained EU law bill, they asked me if I would go on. I thought I was going to go on with a Jacob Riesmorgh or a Farage or something like that. Maybe I don't follow these things as close as I should, but I actually, I didn't even know who she was. I couldn't quite believe. And she was an MEP. She was a former MEP who's now an advisor to Richard Tice, the reform party.

17:59But a UKIP MEP? Yeah, yeah. Or the Brexit party. Brexit party. And before we went in there, the Israeli MP was about to go on after us with the Palestinian ambassador. I was talking to the Palestinian ambassador about Middle East peace process and such like. And she got into conversation and started to try to tell the Palestinian ambassador that people in working class areas in Britain their cost of living was rising because of Brexit, to which she looked and said, do you know anything about inflation and how the economy works on inflation? So that I just thought this isn't not going to be a reality.

18:35So it wasn't going well on the green run? It wasn't going badly, but it wasn't going great. And then in the interview, she just came out with stuff that was just utter build and factually inaccurate and he just gets sick of it after a while. What I didn't like myself for doing was turning on Victoria Darbyshire. I think I probably did that because - I think so about the BBC and fear. Yeah, who actually, I do think there's been a problem with the BBC not calling out these Brexit's. I mean, you know, the fact that Nigel Farage has been on the question time more than any other politician in history is ridiculous.

19:06They very rarely get into the war. Well, even for Nigel and News Knight last night, same Brexit as a disaster. He's now just commenting on it despite having been one of the great creators of it. So I got very aerated with Victoria, but to be honest, he's one of those things end of a long day. And do you find the process of publishing your book and the reviews and the interviews and all the stuff? Is it stressful? Because sometimes what's happening is people are kind of dredging up your past, chucking your rock war at you, chucking your time and downing straight out. Is that unpleasant for you?

19:38Do you have quite a thick skin? Do you worry about it? No, I don't. I quite enjoy. Look, there will come a point probably in a couple of weeks where I'll think, right, I've done the book and that move on to the next thing. So on the way here, I went to a school just down the road, and I really enjoyed it. Young kids really engaged in politics. All of them getting a book for the asking a question, all that sort of stuff. And it was, so that sort of stuff I enjoy. I should, I don't know if you're aware, Rory, but I did invent another new word yesterday, podultory. Podultory? Podultory. I committed podultory yesterday.

20:14Oh, yes, I was invited on that show. I was supposed to be asking a surprise question to you on that show. You went on usage. I did. Yeah. So you have to do so, as you will find out when politics on the edge is published in September, you have to do a podultory. So I did a bit of podultory. And what was interesting, you mentioned the right, they actually taught a lot about the exchanges that we had around. They were singing your praises as an interviewer. And they were saying they thought that you got more out of me on the right than anybody else ever had. That's very kind of. I don't agree with that, but very kind of thought.

20:48Listen, just a word. I don't find it that difficult. I just, I know when I'll have reached the end of the book, but it's not been too painful. I was in Paris yesterday, and I was in a square outside the Senate where for five months, Catholic protesters were protesting a change on surrogate mothers. And I was reminded how very different the culture wars are in places like France from the culture wars here. In France and the United States, so much of it is driven by religion. And whatever's happening in the National Conservatism Conference and the people are much, much more secular society. And so despite the fact you get, you know, JD Vance, who's a US senator wanting to talk about keeping the family together and all that stuff, it's got a completely different resonance in the US.

21:38Or even, I think, in Catholic countries in Europe. So the most important issue in France. So that was, I'm just reminded of it again, again, I keep forgetting that one of the things that is a continual challenge is that there is still a conservative religious Catholic element in French politics that doesn't like liberal progressive reforms brought in by Francois, your friend Francois Hollande, on things like surrogate mothers. And I was just reminded that for five months, it sat in the square outside the Senate, protesting it. And that... What about the assisted die thing? Is that not seen as a religious thing?

22:10Because Macron's moving the data on that pretty fast. I think it's a huge thing. And I think we underestimate how much in all these countries, when you and I naturally applaud progress in Ireland or France on all these issues, how there is often 40 % of the population that remains very, very uncomfortable about these things and probably very resentful of the politicians that introduce them. Right on that, I will take a break.

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