134. Question Time: Solving sewage, building on the Green Belt, and the most intimidating person in politics

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1:06Welcome to the rest of this politics question time with Miroris Jürt and me Astakamble. Very good. So, Alisa, sewage dumping, this is a question you like. Clifthentom. I'm sure you'll be aware of all the news covering the dumping of sewage into our country's waterways. And on to our beaches, I understand you voted to support this approach in a recent vote this year, did you? In Parliament, is that correct? I'd like to understand why and given I imagine this may be addressed to me, I'm only teasing you. I'd like to understand why and given the absolute mass, what actions you're going to take to reverse the SunExcept for situation.

1:41So, Clive, I'm not actually a sitting MP, so I haven't been a member of the British Parliament since 2019, so I certainly did not vote to support this approach in a recent vote this year in Parliament. However, it is a good subject and once worth talking about, basically at the heart of that I believe is the incredible, lamentable, underinvestment in our sewage system, which means that the whole British sewage system at the moment and has for a long time depended if there's an overflow in discharging raw sewage into water. And fixing this, and I was the environment minister, so I spent a lot of time looking at this issue, is an issue of tens of billions of pounds.

2:22The number that was thrown at me was something like 23, 25 billion pounds, which to put it in context is, I don't know, the entire prison budget four times over would have to go into fixing this. So it's not a small amount of money and it would be interesting to see a cross -party approach to put the funding in place to get it together. And I think there's another thing that isn't communicated to the public, which is that I'm being a bit unfair colleagues in the Treasury, but the impression I got from the Treasury was that they thought that 23 billion pounds wasn't worth it for the health benefits that she derived from not putting the sewage into the water.

3:06Question here, related from Lee Williams, your thoughts on water companies charged on the customer 10 billion pounds over 10 years to repair antiquated network despite withdrawing over 50 billion pounds in dividends over the last 10 years. I think this is what gets people really angry or it is this of all the privatisations. I think this is the one that really gets people to go and I think that people just feel that these water companies have been absolutely in it for the money, haven't really invested for the long term and sort of stop care at some point they stop caring about the quality of water.

3:38And of course, if you have something like to read coffees, the minister who always seems to me like somebody who it's almost like everything is happening around us though it's got nothing to do with them. Yeah, well, it's not very good is it, but it's better than it was or it's you know we've got, she actually went on television the other day so we've got the cleanest bathing water we've ever had. Well you then look at these maps of where this SHIT is being pumped out in massive quantities and as you know I'm a cold water swimmer and we're always looking for new places and you can't even, you can't even get the data now as to what is clean and what isn't.

4:09I think the government's completely underestimating this issue as a real problem for them. I mean it is a really interesting see that the one that I was completely obsessed with was air quality because when I was the minister it became clear that at least 26 ,000 people a year were dying prematurely from air pollution But I remember doing a debate with Diane Abbott in the House of Commons and she was saying it's absolutely Disgusting that air pollution is you know worse than it's ever been and I had to say actually that isn't true And sounding a bit like to read coffee course the truth is air quality is much much better than it was 20 years ago 30 years ago, 40 years ago, it was unbelievably bad, the nitrogen dioxide, self -dioxide, it was an RR, and of course you go back to the famous smogs and fogs of Victorian Britain.

4:57That was air pollution, that wasn't weather. What Dickens thought was part of the traditional London weather was simply industrial pollution. So it is also true that actually our beaches and water have, on many indicators, improved over the last 20, 30 years. But our expectations are also understandably expanding all time. So just as I don't think it's good enough to say, we don't need to do anything on air because it was worse in the past. Well, 26 ,000 people are still dying prematurely. And you can make the same argument around sewage. Yes, it may well be that our bathing water is cleaner than it was in the past.

5:35I mean, the Thames famously is much cleaner than it was in the early 80s. And we've built a huge, super sewer under the Thames, being built £4b ,000 ,000 super -sewer under the times to make it even cleaner. But I think the public still wants things better than that, don't they? Yeah. Now, Kirsty Savapalan. I've just ordered Alice's book, thank you. Somebody who's disabled and lives with the chronic illness, ME, which limits mobility and exertion. What can I realistically do? Do you know of any active disabled chronicly sick politician role models to inspire people like me? Actually, there is a...

6:06When you read the book, so you'll find that I have a section where I pay tribute to three of my favourite MPs. Jack Ashley, who was profoundly deaf, David Blunkett, who was, as we all know, blind and was one of our best ministers by a long way, and Ann Begg, MP up in Aberdeen, who I suspect was in there when in Parliament with you, Rory. Yes. And of course was in a wheelchair. And I don't know if you may know I also know apologicians who struggle with mental health problems. I don't know of any who have ME with them and with you, do Rory, but I don't think we should think that it's impossible to be a member of Parliament with chronic illness.

6:48One of the striking examples I'm going to take is Paul Maynard, who has cerebral palsy. He was strangled by an unbellical corded birth, developed epilepsy, and has been a very effective MP, and he was a minister and justice, minister and transport, very bright guy. I mean, it's not easy and there have been times where he's felt that he's suffered real abuse. As a politician, I'm afraid to say also actually abuse from the Labour bench, it's when he's been speaking, but he's a real example of somebody who's overcome extraordinary difficulties to be a powerful MP. Now, here's a question for you. Charlotte, what are Rory and Alice's views on Kierstarmus plans to allow more building on the Green Belt.

7:31I live on the world. There are applications to build houses on our Green Belt land, which are extremely unpopular with myself and local residents. I've always voted Labour and was planning to at the next election, but Starmas comments made me think twice. Where are you on building on the Green Belt? I think I'm moving towards it. I don't see how we, I as you know, love a great landscape. I think a lot of the when we talk about the Green Belt, we're not necessarily talking about great landscapes, we're talking about land that has been protected from certain forms of building into which there has already been a sense of encroachment.

8:02And I think as long as we do have proper environmental policies, then at some point, given the housing crisis in this country, we are going to have to look at it. I'm on the other side of this. So I think the Green Belt has been an amazing thing around our cities. I think it stopped urban sprawl. It was a really smart move. If I look at a city like Nagoya, where I was yesterday and see what happens when there isn't adequate protection around. And a lot of American cities, you can really see how the sprawl continues to end. I'd like us to be more imaginative, I agree. A lot of the Green Belt band is substandard land.

8:35So I'd like to see Kirstaama put in his manifesto, in fact, you and I should write a manifesto for Kirstaama, but in his manifesto, a commitment to plant the Green Belt around London with the largest forest in England. We could put in 500 million trees, we could transform air quality, we could have an impact on climate, we could have an incredible impact on leisure. by putting the green belt to proper use. So it's not just sitting there as sort of half a band in the land, but get a beautiful, beautiful, grand forest planted there. Okay, listen, Harry Diamond, what does the UK cabinet minister in 2023 have to do to get the sack as in no resignation given or accepted plain outright, you're fired?

9:12What do you think a minister would actually have to do to get the boot without any sense of, if I think of Ron Davis, when he went for a walk on Clapham Common, that ended up in him being sacked, we had, but the warm is the last sucking in this government. I think one Davis is unfortunate because I think Long Davis is a legacy from a period where the press were pushing for ministers who were gay and he was stuck in a problem about not being comfortable coming out. I think that that wouldn't happen today and I think ministers are much less likely to be forced to resign over affairs. Although I guess Matt Hancock had resigned but that was connected with breaking COVID regulations.

9:54What would it take to drive people out? Well, I think I've been at remember the number of people have gone, have resigned or been sacked. Not until how he went about his tax affairs. Yeah, but it was going after a long draw now, try to defend them and keep going. There's not a sort of, you know, there's nothing seems to be cut and dried anymore. And this whole thing about the soon I appears to be sort of using the ethics advisor in much the way as previous Tory primalists have done to sort of say, let's see if we can sort of kick the process into the long grasp of it. Oh, I'm not sure that's fair.

10:28I think this ethics advisor, Laurie Magnus, is not only pretty good, but pretty quick. I mean, I know people suspected that, but actually what happened with items of Harvey is I think he was back with them four days. Right. And as soon as he produced his report, items of Harvey went. No, I think that's working pretty efficiently. It's not kicking it into long -grass, like a royal commission or something. Okay. James O .B. Who's the most intimidating person you've both come across in politics? Is that James O. Bryan? No, I don't think it is James O. Bryan. I think James O. Bryan is called James O .B.

10:58on social media, but I don't think this is James O. Bryan. The most intimidating person. I'm going for Helmwick Cole. I found him incredibly intimidating. More than Vladimir Putin? Yeah, partly because of his physicality, I think. He was very... I don't mean intimidating, by the way, in a dominant, a rare type way of bullying and aggression, just incredibly intimidating because of his size. And there was a power about him that sort of emanated. I find him very intimidating. Well, I put my money on the leaders in Babuay. I was the first minister to meet President Managagua after his inauguration.

11:37And he killed his first man, I think when he's 14 or 15, and then led Mugabe's security service. And at that period when he came in, there was a real desire to believe that now that Mugabe had stepped down, that Mugabe was going to lead a new liberal opening, that they were going to open up economically and politically and run clean elections. And he marched in to see me with two men and four military uniform on either side of him. sat down and he began talking about Laura Kabila and his time in military training camps in Angola in the 1970s and early 80s. And I sort of remembered, you know, and I gently tried to suggest in the the weird way that British Minister is supposed to that maybe we should allow Zimbabweans outside the country to vote and we should have independent and intellectual monitors in.

12:30And he looks at me with a sort of extraordinary, sort of mingled, pity experience and sight sort of derision. And I left the room thinking that the idea that we were going to get amazing reforms out of a man called Emerson, the Crocodile Manongagua was not very likely. Well, the one that I almost said, but I didn't want to, was also Zimbabwean, and that was Mugabi. But it wasn't, I didn't feel intimidated by him. I felt utterly repelled and revolted. It was one of the most expensive suits I've ever seen. You've got a good eye for expensive suits. Have any of you? You're always noting that on Michael Hesselstein, who else did you think had an expensive suit?

13:07Phil, I saw Phil and Pam recently had a very, very, very expensive suit. And what's the sign of an expensive suit as a man that doesn't notice these things? What do you notice about expensive suits? It's the cut. You can tell. You can tell it. It's just very, very, very well cut. And the cloths sort of, I noticed when Philip happened, for example, we did a panel together, there and we were sitting down maybe for about two hours but I noticed that when he stood up it still looked like he'd just put it on. It was the weight of the cloth. I mean I don't know, I could be, maybe it was Mars and Spencers but I don't think so.

13:39So McGarby was wearing this incredibly expensive suit and it was at the Chogham, the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Edinburgh. And his first question was on the lines of, why did Tony Blair surround himself with nothing but homosexuals? Jonathan Powell and I were both sort of very confused as to why he was asking us this question. But so then he went to a brief about Tony Blair's game Athea, or very, very, very odd. Gosh, goodness gracious me. I did tell you. Oliver Merriman, Year of Broad story for Alistair. I am, like you were, a student of modern languages at Keys College in Cambridge.

14:10Is that Gonville and Keys? Right. That's the one. That's very, very nice. Gonville and Keys College Cambridge, where you went, right? September, I'm going on my Year of Broad, and would therefore love to know the most memorable story you might have from the time you spent on your year abroad and as a modern linguistic Cambridge University. It was one of the best years of my life. Totally random. All the students were given the choice of having year abroad in a school, teaching English for 12 hours a week or going to university. I went for the school. It's then total pot like about where you get sent and I got sent to a school in Nice.

14:44So I had a year living in Nice, by the port and it was absolutely wonderful. The highlight moment in a bizarre sort of way was probably when I realized that I could make a very, very good living as a busker, because I had my backpipes with your pipes. I had my backpipes. I went and found a very quiet place out in the open, but a sort of random car park in the middle of nowhere, tuned them up, started playing them just from my own entertainment. And this crowd came out and started throwing money into the into the box. And I thought, oh my God, you would just practice. just practice things. So that evening I went to the promenade Zonglei and then Rue Masséna which is the sort of pedestrian precinct and I stood there playing my pipes.

15:27I thought God I can make it up, so it's fortune. So I then what I did, I persuaded the head teacher of the school, can I pack my 12 hours into one and a half days and then the rest of the year I just spent the time traveling around Europe making a lot of money with my backpack. And that's how you make major fortune? Well fortune overstates it. So Rory, if you're asking me specific If you questions aimed at me, Karl Weissmann, could Rory please share a few of his lessons from staying overnight with ordinary people during his Merrill campaign? Yeah, so that, that, thank you. So this was something called Come Kept With Me.

15:57And I put out a tweet saying, I'd love to be invited to stay in People's Houses and about 6 ,000 people wrote back almost immediately. And there were lovely emails coming in from people saying, they were often very long emails, trying to explain why I should be staying with them and what I'd learn by staying with them. But it was really eye opening. I stayed with a co -operative for older women. Up in North London, I stayed on the sofa of a guy's family flat in Wandsworth where he was living with his parents and his sister and a younger brother and a two bedroom council house. Did you check? Did you have anybody check them out before you went?

16:35Yes, some of my team would call them. When you're an MP, obviously you're often leaflettings. You knock on a door and you put a leaflet through and you ask a couple of questions and you move on. If you stay in someone's house, you have the whole night and the morning and you talk late into the night, you wake up, you often you can walk to work with them in the morning or walk to the underground station with the morning. I learnt so much from just getting a sensor, was a stable woman who was volunteering in a homeless shelter out towards Stratford. A lot of the times I was sleeping on people's sofas, but it just gave me an amazing insight in a way that is so important for London because London isn't really one place.

17:17It's sort of 32 cities connected to each other and you've really got spend time in all of them. And did you literally stay on your own or did any of your people, your team stay with you? I'd stay on my own except one case I think my friend Will came and stayed once but generally I'd stay on my own and we'd have sometimes have supper. I'd bring some milk tray, I'd bring milk tray with me. Milk tray? Yeah, yeah. Cadbury's milk tray. Yeah. Always milk tray. Always Cadbury's milk tray, yeah. Why? Well, because someone had made a joke about my being, you know, the man with the milk tray, so it was just kind of crap joke.

17:51Oh, see. Okay. Because then the man, how come it was the milk tray man as well, wasn't he? Because you dressed with that. Well, that's because he wore a black, that wasn't because he, he, he, he went in through people's windows for the present. I think it was more because he wore a dodgy black polo neck. Right. Well, let's just take a quick break on Rory Stewart, the Milk Traiman.

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19:50Welcome back to the RESTS PILOTEX Question Time. John S., you both seem like very busy people constantly on the move, traveling to different countries, working on multiple different projects. I wonder what are your tips for work life balance? I manage communications for a UK diplomatic mission while also having three kids under the age five, I feel burnt out most days, this struggle I wanted to give my all for the job and also my family. I'm the last person to answer that very, very well because I don't think I do it very well at all. The work -life thing. I feel completely burnt out most of the time.

20:21As you know, I'm running this charity gift directly, which means that I have to be in Africa quite a lot and fundraising the states quite a lot. And I feel very, very guilty. I've got an eight -year -old and a six -year -old. And I won't see them now for almost three weeks. Oh, Lord. So I think it's tough. It's tough. And I think it's tougher, maybe this isn't true, but I sometimes feel it's tougher for my friends from women. I think it's particularly tough for Shoshana who's running a big charity in Afghanistan and Myanmar. And it's also having to do an enormous amount of other stuff in the house.

20:58So I think it's pretty tough being a young parent though, I guess, any gender because the expectations are generally pretty impossible, aren't they? Yeah, no, I listen, I'm a lot better than I was in that I I rest more than I used to, but I still feel I have to exercise every day I've been swimming this morning and I'm doing boxing later on I've got to exercise I've got to sort of look after myself Um, and you know our kids are growing up, but we still see a lot of them and still worry about them and still want to be kind of connected to them But I guess you do have a job, but you also seem with the job to have quite a lot of freedom.

21:38Yeah, I think that's true. I'm the boss, which helps. And a lot of what I'm doing is fundraising. So I'm a lot of the time I'm traveling around trying to raise money. And it's true that she's a member of Parliament too, that you are your boss as an MP. And you can pretty much, MPs do work hard. I mean, whatever we think about them, maybe Eval may be incompetent, but they do work hard. No, I think very fury, very fury of all summer incompetent, but I agree with you that most work very, very hard. Listen, we've got a couple of few critical questions this week, which I think we'll come back to later.

22:07We've got a lot of people asking us that suggesting that we were very dismissive of doctors and the question of why we've got such a problem with training, training doctors, which I said we'd come back to, but given the level of the number of people who got in touch to say that they felt we were dismissive, I think we should come back at it when we've really looked into the issue. And there's another one we've got some, we've got a bit of criticism, frit fly. The most popular country in Africa held an election this year, the results of which remain controversial. I haven't yet heard you guys mention it once.

22:35Can you give us some thoughts and analysis on Nigeria before the swearing end of Tannu Buh at the end of the month? In fact, frit fly, you must have missed the episode where we talked good lengths about the election. We've done a couple of Nigerian episodes. And we talked quite a lot about Tannu Buh. I mean, it is, it's very difficult to know who could have brought Nigeria out of its current malice, but it's difficult. I'm afraid to believe that Tanubu can because he is absolutely a veteran machine politician. And the guy that was meant to be sort of breath of fresh air came, I think came third in the end.

23:12Who was Peter Obey. And Tanubu famously had his assets frozen by the US government for heroin dealing in 93. It's pretty worrying, yeah. Simon C. I'm genuinely interested in your answer to this and I think I know what the answer is going to be, but I don't really. I'm an art teacher, so Simon, I wonder how you both feel about art. Are you artists yourself? Do you make time to be creative? Do you have exhibitions or galleries that are favourites? I paint. I do paint a little bit. I paint and I draw my first book place in between, who's got my drawings in it. Oh, they're yours. They're my drawings, yeah.