136. Question Time: Johnson vs. Stewart, protests in Serbia, and are think tanks actually influential?

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0:50Welcome to the episode of the Restus Politics Question Time with me, Alistair Campbell. And with me, Rory Stewart. Now, Rory, yes. As you know, when we get things wrong, unlike our national newspapers, we correct ourselves. Oh, yes. So last week, I said that Nigel Farage had appeared on BBC Question Time more than any other human being and didn't that just show our populace have got a grip of the BBC, etc, etc, etc. And I got a very nice email from none other than Fiona Bruce, presenter of Question Time. You said this is a well -worn, but inaccurate, untrue statement. And she sent me the list.

1:28So would you like to have a guess who, which politician has appeared on Question Time more than any other in its entire history? Oh, what a good question. What a very, very good question. Michael Heffelton? No, he's not in the top 10. Okay. He is a Tory and he's from that era. That era. So, earlier than William Hake. Yes, but been around a long time. Still in the dark. Ken Clark. It's got the Ken Clark. Correct. Correct. Ken Clark 59. Shirley Williams 58. Ming Campbell 47. Harriet Harman 45. Charles Kennedy got blessed in 44. Claire Short 38. Paddy Ashdown and Roy Hattersley tied on 36. And then on 35 Nigel Farage.

2:16I still think 35 appearances for Nigel Farage is somewhat high. No, but wait a sec. Where to set where to set? Where to set? In defense of you. Those are the names of real old veteran politicians. And I bet he's been on much more intensity because he only came to public prominence much later than people like Ken Clark or Shirley Williams. I mean, they managed to do that because they were coming on regularly over many, many years. I think if you looked at frequency in a year, I bet he beats them all. Yeah. I also think that I was probably quoting something that I'd read that he'd made more appearances than anybody else in the last X years.

2:52And I think I think you're unsure. I'm sure you're right on that. Yeah. So let's show we withdraw the rebuttal. Shall we say that we don't we don't we're sorry at all? I'm very pleased that you were responsible about that. And here's a question for you. Elna's cashiff. What did you both do for your work experience when you were in school? Did it have anything to do with politics? What have you learned from it that was useful for your career over the you asked? Well, I spent every summer doing working with my uncles farm. I did work in a light bulb factory. I don't think that helped my career. Like a light bulb joke.

3:24You were like screwing in light. I was screwing in light bulbs all day long. Is that not what Charlie Chaplin does in the film that his hands just going back and forth like that? It's how it he does. Well, I was testing the light bulb strength. And you you according to the color of the light that came when you put them into different boxes. Um, I did loads of sort of part to but I don't record I don't record every doing work experience. I did paid work. That's that's good. Serious stuff. You also works on a farm. I worked on the farm's lots and you but you also worked on them in a trade union, didn't you?

3:54I that's right. I work it's for the transport and general workers union. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Now listen, Roy, as you know, in in in my new book, which is called But what can I do? Fantastic. Well said again. Yeah. I have invented this word called Persevilliance and there's a guy called Fraser Webster who is Persevilliant because his question reads as follows. I'm just going to keep asking this until you get to it. So well done Fraser. We've done it. The defeat to Johnson. This is definitely for you, Roy. It's very personal. The defeat to Johnson obviously still runs deep for Rory.

4:29Did he really think he'd get near him? I seem to remember Johnson being the clear front row from the start and Rory being the outside of Canada from a Rory fan. Well, um, I just felt I guess that he couldn't win. I felt that in the end, he was not suitable to be Prime Minister and that the British public might think he was, you know, could be amusing that he might even be a someone they could see as Merrill London, but that they couldn't possibly see him as being serious enough to be Prime Minister. So I had completely convinced myself that however it looked in the end when they had to face the fact that he had no clearer answers and that this is honestly what the debate was about, that catastrophic debate that I lost to him in 2019 TV debate was literally on what are you going to do about the Northern Island border?

5:17How are you going to sort out your tariffs? Why do you think that you're going to be able to get a better deal out of Brussels and get Britain out of the European Union by 35th of October? You can't, can you, Boris? You can't do that. I thought these points were so obvious. I mean, particularly the points about Northern Island border that in the end, he would have to lose that he wouldn't be able to make it through a campaign without people just seeing that he was grotesque, that he was so obviously either lying or incompetent or as I began to realise sort of both at the same time in an intricate way and of course I was completely wrong.

5:56So in historical hindsight, could I have beaten him? Well, if I'm allowed to just indulge myself for another 45 seconds, if Sergeant Javid had got one less vote, fewer, sorry, if Sergeant Javid had got one fewer votes in the round, I think it was on the Tuesday, he would have been eliminated. I think his votes, the majority of them, at least on our spreadsheets, look like they could have come to me. I would have moved ahead of Michael Gove. He then would have been eliminated. I think his votes, again, would most have come to me and I might have gone ahead of Jeremy Hunt and that would have put me in the last two against Boris Johnson.

6:38And again, the question is, was there any chance, if it had been me instead of Jeremy Hunt, of convincing the Conservative Party in the country that Boris Johnson was taking them on hiding to nothing and I guess the answer probably as I would have lost there too because the Conservative Party in the country was very, very pro -Brexit, very suspicious of somebody like me who was seen as a remainder who was too soft on Brexit. So probably structurally I was doomed and I guess you degree. Yeah, but also you have to, if you're involved in a campaign like that, so like the Lib Dems go into the next general election campaign, they don't think that Ed Davis is going to become prime minister but they have to set big objectives and go for them.

7:14So you had to tell yourself that you could win. Otherwise, you wouldn't get out of bed and do the things you needed to do. So I still think that was the right thing to think and sometimes in elections the impossible does come off. So I think you had the right mindset. And Macron did it. Macron did it. Exactly. Different electoral system but he did do it. So maybe I just wasn't good enough or Macron's just much better. Hanah, Hanah, Hanah, Hanah, Hanah, Hanah, hi, Platt. I'm writing my dissertation on the influence of think tanks and British politics, mainly focused on the mini budget. In your experience, how valuable if at all did you find think tanks when developing policies?

7:51Asa, did you find think tanks valuable? I think they can be. I think that there's a real problem in recent years that the, because particularly during the Corbin period, the sort of the left think tank field got pretty much hollowed out. People sort of felt they were whistling in the wind. And the right has become very co -opted by this 55 Tufton Street ideological. They're not really think tanks at all. They're just another arm of a political machine. But I can remember way back the influence, for example, of the Social Justice Commission. I don't know whether you call that a think tank, but it was, it was a policy development specifically set up to try to create ideas that the politicians would be interested in.

8:31I actually think a lot of the work that Tony Blaise institutes doing at the moment. If I were a political party or a government in any different parts of the world, I'd be looking at some of the papers they produce. So I think the President of the Foundation is very good. I think some of the, I think that onward group that I actually do some interesting work, more maybe more analytical of public opinion. But I think tanks can be very, very useful. And also don't underestimate the importance of trying to find think tanks in other parts of the world that come up with ideas. Because I do think one of the problems with our politics at the moment is that, you know, the ideas industry feels very, very tired.

9:10It does, doesn't it? And there's desperate, desperate push for new ideas. I mean, I think it's the thing that, you know, we keep coming back to this, but makes me worried about labor. I don't feel that Kirsten was coming in with the same confidence and ideas that New Labour was coming in with in 96, 97. Now, is that just that there are fewer ideas out there? Is it the Britain is just in a very difficult situation? Is it the whole world's just feeding more tired? I'd also say that, that think tanks, yes, they can change things, but it can also be a pretty depressing business. To be honest, as a minister, I'm struggling to think of many examples where think tanks really made a difference.

9:51I think actually, sorry, there's one example. Think tanks who made the case, and I think influenced the Ministry of Justice to look at it more carefully for abolishing short sentences and prisons, which would have massively reduced the prison population and reduced rearfending by getting rid of sentences, a magistrate's ability to give sentences for under six months. That, I think, probably originated in think tanks. Or rather than being a reform campaign organisation, it's like the how it is. Well, I guess, I guess I'm sort of connecting how a how it league and all these things to think tank world.

10:26Certainly in justice, that group prison reform trust, how it league, what were very, very important were trusted by it. I guess in defence, Rusew, WI, WS, but even Chatham House, which is partly funded by the foreign office, very close to the foreign office, often I think do get a bit frustrated at the sense that they're not really on the inside. Whereas the US think tanks, Brookings Institution, Council and Foreign Relations, some of the US universities, you really do feel have a much, much more direct line into the administration than there you can, with us. I think the other thing that think tanks struggle with is some just want to sort of create interesting ideas and get into the public policy debate, but they want to have the sense of having influence over be at the government or the opposition.

11:17And the issue of think tank political alignment, I think, is quite difficult. I mean, it's possible, I think it's unlikely, but it's possible that those tough to and street more come up with the occasional good idea every now and then. It's very unlikely to be accepted by a progressive government because of where it's coming from. I think there are probably think tanks on the left that the Tories would never look at as well. Now, here's what we talked about the Greenbell last week, George Parish, two related questions here. How does Rory plan to solve the housing crisis if building on the Greenbell does forbidden?

11:44And Katie Del Rey, who included with her question, a link to Wikipedia telling us that there are 131 golf courses in London. What are your thoughts on the idea of building on the many golf courses in London instead of the Greenbell? A minority of people use golf courses does London really need 131 of them? I'd be surprised if many of those golf courses aren't actually in the Greenbell. I wonder how many of them are in London proper? Katie, you need to check out your source and let's know. Check out the idea. That is not the first time I've heard that as an idea. Generally speaking, I guess I'm trying to hold back against building on Green space.

12:22I think what we need to do is get what I would call gentle density into London. If you compare London with cities like Paris, they have a lot of very good five or six stories, seven story buildings, which are attractive, which don't destroy the landscape, which are a human scale, and which fit in many more people. You can see it actually. Do you know where the most one of the most density populated areas in London is around Sloan Avenue, around Sloan Square? So often the most density populated areas in London are some of the poshest, most valuable areas in London. But the problem on London is that we have very been reluctant to, well, very reluctant to deal with the fact that we've got this huge spread of semi -detached or two story houses spreading out over mile after mile after mile.

13:14I also think the Mererva London has not been as imaginative as he could have been on building on thousands of acres of transport for London land, Mererva London land, which is just there for affordable housing to be built on. I'd like to see a government come in that was really bold about providing, I'd like to see them literally build the Equipment of Council House since, because I think it's a good investment for a city like London. Don't pay developers and tell them to put in 20 % affordable. Build and own the houses, rent them out at an affordable rate, and then you'll be sitting on a fantastic store of value for the city for the next 200 years and build them.

13:56Six stories high, proper avenues, like Stone Avenue, then you'll find you'll get a lot of people in and you can have a very, very human scale fulfilling existence in those communities. I'm going to give a shout out to Siddiqui's new book, which was out this week, called Breathe, which is about air quality. He's helped to explain and the climate and helps explain why he is despite a lot of political opposition and organised campaigning against him, extending the Ules in London. Here's one, Rory, pre -Tabadhan. What is your favourite Tina Turner's song? Can you think of anyone more resilient than Tina?

14:33I think Percivilian you'll find as the word and also is Alice to Able to play simply the best on the backpipes. I'll give it a go. I can give it a go in today. That's very good. Unfortunately, Tina Turner's tune that I know best is simply the best. Do you know any others? Come on, Rory. Let's go to the culture. No, no, no, no, no. I kind of, weirdly, I'm not sure about Tina. I was listening to Tina Turner recently and I was trying to get my head around. You're much more musical than me, but do you not agree that Whitney Houston has a much, much better voice than Tina Turner? Oh, yeah. Yeah, but Tina Turner's just an amazing performer.

15:04I love simply the best because when my boys were growing up and I was first indoctrinating them in the art of being a Burnley supporter, which meant four -hour car journeys up dragged up there to which the game we used to play simply the best as the teams came out. I think you're dating yourself there. I had a ski teacher, a British ski teacher from Essex in the mid 1980s, who insisted that every time he went down a hill, we had to play simply the best. And still, when I ski, I can sort of hear simply the best of my head. That's good that you have that sort of musical resonance in your life. All right, let's just take a quick break.

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17:02And here we are back from the break with the rest of politics question time. Now here are our Aiden. To be short a little bit about the press on the main podcast Aiden, to what extent of the far right tabloid press poisoned political discourse in the UK, particularly England, and is there behavior simply the price of democracy? Very good. Okay, go on. That's one of your favorite questions in the world. Give us a give us your answer. You want to know your view? I want your view. Well, let me start by saying thank you. Thank you. I think they've done a huge amount of damage. I think it's been very, very damaging for political life, for trust and politicians, for our views, the monarchy and many, many other things.

17:39It's been hugely destructive for us. I would say that I've experienced some pretty, pretty unfair hard reporting from tabloid newspapers on the left as well as on the right. But I do think the British press is a pretty terrifying go on over you. I think I remember a guy used to have a murder in Australia and I was on Australia and he said, he said mate, the thing about the British papers, they're the best in the world and they're the worst in the world. And it's usually the same edition. I think there is a little bit of rough with smooth. But I do think now, classic example last week, you have the net migration figures.

18:18Now, how many thousands of forests have been fell so that the papers can tell us that this is the most important significant issue in these terrible immigrants who come in here and stealing our jobs and destroying our public services, etc. And the hate that is pumped out there, then along comes some truly dreadful net migration figures for the government. I don't think they made a single front page apart from the daily express which had yet another sort of cheerleading soon act to get tough soon act to sort it out. And when you see that you look at the reality of, for example, the damage that breaks us doing to the country and the economy at the moment and day in, day out, they're telling us how well it's going.

18:56I think they've damaged their credibility hugely, particularly in the last few years. But I agree with you, I think that they've done considerable damage to the nature of our debate. One of the things that comes out in these talks that I'm doing around the book and I know you've been doing loads of this stuff as well is that, and I think it's one of the reasons people listen to our podcast and other podcasts in such numbers is because people just don't think they really are getting any true debate or any honest analysis. Everything is designed to fit into the prism of a few very, very wealthy, very, very right wing media owners and editors.

19:28That's it. And I think we have to recognize that's what the problem is that the BBC, which I really do laugh at, I'm a huge fan of the BBC, but they are very, very constrained by these very difficult impartiality stuff, which often means that they can't be quite as blunt as outspoken as we'd like to be. Here's a question I quite liked, which resonated with me, but I'd like to see what you made of it. Michelle Fox, I'm an Irish actor living in London for nearly a decade. Why do many English people have zero idea about Irish British history? Constantly dismayed when English people asked me if my country is part of the UK and are completely ignorant about the troubles.

20:05I really did feel that. I was kind of very embarrassed at she as a member of Parliament by how little we talked about Northern Ireland particularly, how rarely people visited Northern Ireland, how vague the views of me and many of my colleagues were about the different parties that were sitting with us in the House of Commons. And there was something that was kind of tragic about it because Northern Ireland, particularly unionists and Northern Ireland, feeling deeply part of the United Kingdom. But so many people in England have gotten the Wales, you know, almost behaving as though it wasn't part of their country at all.

20:41Any thoughts on that? I think there are parts of Scotland where I think that the sense of Irish politics is very deep in the debate and you see it most obviously in every time Celtic play Rangers. So I think Scotland may be a little bit different. But there's no doubt about this. So when we were doing the peace process in Northern Ireland, one of the difficulties we had to deal with domestically. And this used to show up in polls at times is like, you know, the view in England in particular that we were wasting quotes wasting so much time on Northern Ireland. And that attitude, you know, why did it let themselves out?

21:20So I think the question is right, I think there's a lot of times and almost willful ignorance. And that's why, you know, I do think that maybe laced into the question is this sense that maybe what's happened with Brexit and the current manifestation of the Conservative Party is that English nationalism has become a very, very potent force. It's very odd, isn't it? Because when we were in Fungiari Adams, he very much was on the view that Great Britain, but particularly England, is this sort of immense, suppressive imperial power, you know, there to kind of crush the life out of Ireland. And that sort of view, that Republican view, unfortunately, may exaggerate how much the English short, the British government actually think about it at all.

22:02I mean, the Republican view is, you know, this is an imperial power to not crush them. I mean, often the reality is more to the tragic indifference, isn't it? There's more just they don't care. Yeah. Andrew Gallagher, Serbia has had some massive protests in favor of gun control. This follows two mass murders in schools recently, but we hear very little about it. If it had happened in the United States, it would have been big news. Is this a deliberate attempt to have us equate the US as us and Europe as them? Goodness question. I must admit, I didn't know, if that's, I didn't know about the protests, did you?

22:35No, I didn't. Completely unaware of it. So that's probably just to do with the fact that, you know, we're back to the problem of a very kind of Anglo -centric media. We don't, I'm afraid, cover abroad as much as we did. America is different and American politics in particular is different, but Andrew is absolutely right. If there were big anti -gun law protests in America, we would know about them, just as we hear about all their big shootings. And I was aware of the mass murders in the schools, but I was not aware of the call for change. Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with you. I mean, and I, you know, only looking this up after hearing the question, enormous demonstrations, and Serbian's handing in thousands of weapons voluntarily.

23:18It's an amazing political moment. Australia, under I think John Howard, was very, very good example of a skillful politician seizing a moment after a horrible series of mass shootings to completely change gun laws. Do it in a country like Australia with a strong tradition of gun ownership amongst farming communities and get it done. And I think it'll be interesting to see how Serbia responds to this, whether they're able like Australia to use the momentum or whether like the United States, they just get stuck forever. What does it say, though, about our media, that you and I follow reasonably closely that neither of us were aware that these protests were going on.

23:59And what is quite a significant country. I think British media is very, very, I'm afraid, bad on farm reporting. I mean, you very rarely read very much about Eastern Europe. I mean, the simply a fact about it, which is that newspapers is short of cash. They have fewer and fewer farm correspondents when they do have them, they're super stringers. When they do write stories, it's extremely difficult to get printed. One of the problems, as we've talked about, is these algorithms where the editors are very influenced by how many page views a particular story has and the truth is, you know, pandr of falls over in Edinburgh Zoo can guarantee to get kind of a million views and protests and Serbia gun violence doesn't get the views in the editor.

24:43You know, it may well be that the some stringering in Belgrade trying to sell the story to an editor and just not getting anywhere. Yeah, I think also we like to have sort of images of different parts of the world and the and the sort of conventional image of the Balkans is, you know, very violent and therefore a story that goes against that, which is what I would describe as the definition of news is deemed less newsworthy than something that actually says, yeah, we were right about in their very violent. Because it shows peaceful civil society demonstrations in Serbia when we want to characterize Serbia the way.