141. Question Time: Labour greatest hope, what a Trump presidency would mean for Ukraine, and should we ban vaping?

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1:06Welcome to the rest of this politics question time with me, Rory Stewart. And me as the Campbell. Fantastic. Well, what have we got as questions as the one that particularly appeals to you to get us going? Alright, Stephen Clark. If Boris Johnson in his post -parlumentary career decides at some point to launch his own political podcast, what advice would you have for him in this venture and what should it be called? The rest is lies, probably. What do you think?

1:34Let's leave it or that. Let's just leave it or that. Very good. I can't, I can't, I don't, yeah, I wasn't quick enough. I'll tell you something that I liked in the questions this week. Is some disagreeing, agreeably going on. And this was on vaping. Bobby Richmond, I'm surprised to discover the UK government still not have not seen sense to place a high rate of tax on vaping despite it reaching epidemic use inside schools up and down the country. Incomes somebody called Charles Gardner. A high tax on nicotine vapes would cause hundreds of thousands of UK adult vapors to shift back to smoking which kills half of all users incomes, FL, Stefanato, disposable vapes should go apart from being cheap and cheerful enough to track kids.

2:18They are horrified at the environment and are waste of precious battery material. So where are your vapes? It's amazing. Well, I guess maybe this is just my age. Dating me, I was so wowed by the way in which vaping helped to move people off more dangerous cigarettes. I can understand all these arguments about it being a gateway and a problem and environmentally I'll say, but I do slightly see the point of your second questioner that it's been a miracle for a lot of people who would otherwise be smoking much more dangerous things that they've been able to transition to vapes. So question for you.

2:52Um, Ukraine, Stevie Ray Williams, do you worry about the potential return of Trump, particularly with regard to how it might impact the war in Ukraine? Oh, totally. Absolutely. It was a completely horrifying thing. I mean, I'd love a bit on this too, but I'll give you a chance, Fest. It's hard to follow what's actually going on in Ukraine at the moment. And we keep hearing about this counteroffensive, and you know, that's clearly on the way. I found that the dam incident, I found that one of the most upsetting things of this whole war so far. And I'll tell you something that I was really troubled by was the extent to which very quickly it became a kind of who done it.

3:34As though it might be Ukraine, it might be Russia. And I thought, what planet are we on here? OK, there's an outside chance that there was some kind of terrible accident the went on. But I cannot for the life of me understand how anybody could seriously be suggesting that the Ukrainians did this to themselves. Am I being naive here? No, no, no. The overwhelming logic is that the Russians did it because it was time to coincide with the beginning of the Ukrainian counteroffensive and it's massively distracted the Ukrainian in state and having to provide emergency support for all these people. I mean, it's horrible watching these, some of the, I mean, we're flooding is always horrible.

4:14It's horrible when you see it in your own country, it's horrible when you see it anywhere. But this was on a, with all else that they're having to deal with at the moment, this was on a truly horrific scale. And you saw some of the people involved and the animals and the houses floating away and, and all that stuff. And it's just kind of hard to think that Putin is going to sit in there, probably saying, result, really good result. Yeah, just on that, I mean, just to re -emphasize what's happened here with this dam. So the bursting of this dam, people would have seen, I'm sure, the incredible visions.

4:44So, destroyed on June 6th, village after village flooded. And, you know, as we've discussed before, I was the flooding minister. But the kind of floods we deal with in the United Kingdom do not begin to touch the enormity of what happens here. I mean, so all the things that we understand from floods in the United Kingdom, which is terrifying, dangerous, and even for people who aren't injured by it, the loss of all your personal possessions, your photo albums wiped out, your May destitute, you have no home. But in this case, it's uproot to the land mines, it's torn through cashers of ammunition, it's carried 150 tons of machine oil to the Black Sea.

5:20And the environmental catastrophe could last for decades to be followed on from this. Listen, can I do a little plug for our sister podcast, which is called Battleground Ukraine, done by Patrick Bishop and Saul David, if people want more on the damned disaster. I could recommend the June 9th episode, 37 minutes, and for people who are really interested in Ukraine, I couldn't recommend anything more. Rory. Yes. Cath Foster. On the Emerge's podcast, Rory apologizes for the sound of the Jordanian musical gas tank. What on earth is a Jordanian musical gas tank? Well, so the track that carries gas cylinders around for people who get a gas and cylinders has a sort of musical sound.

6:01It's a bit like an ice cream truck. And there's another one that goes past which, careful, this is careful, this is hearing now we'll currently be hearing the Azam from the Muizin. But you were also sometimes here a man with a truck who is shouting potatoes potatoes as he goes past. Listen, I just wanted on the serious one though, somebody asked about how worried we should be about Trump. I mean, we should be unbelievably worried about Trump. He's currently leading Biden in the opinion impulse. And I know we disagree a little bit about this. And I know, you know, Biden is far, far better than many, many alternatives.

6:35And we've got a great interview with Mike McNatier, if I think coming up on leading next week where he just pays tribute to Biden's ability as a kind of deal maker and a modern democratic politician. But the truth of the matter is Biden is quite old. And even, and it's a horrible thing to say because the horrible Republican can right exploit this and they put out memes making him out as kind of sleepy and doggery, but the truth is he is old. And I'm afraid he does look older and frailer than Donald Trump. And I am terrified about what Trump coming in will do for everything, for US international credibility, for their attempts to try to put world alliances together on Ukraine, on China, and indeed any hope for what we call the liberal world order or what remains of it will be finished off of Trump gets re -elected.

7:25Yeah, I don't know if you had time to read the indictment. And also, what I mentioned I was on CNN the other day, and they played a clip. I hadn't seen it. William Barr, the former Attorney General, Trump's Attorney General, was on Fox News, and he, who clearly understands these things better than I do, he had read the whole thing as well. And he said, this is really, really dangerous for Trump. This is really, really, really serious. I mean, is it too much to hope that actually for all the sort of noise and the fuss and the protests around him that actually He will be found guilty of a serious federal crime and he'll bend his days in jail Well, if he goes to jail, of course, and he's held long enough not to be able to run in the next election That changes things in an enormous amount But I'm afraid if he doesn't go to jail There's a very very strong part of his base who sees this stuff as being purely politically motivated and you will have seen Elon Musk tweeting out saying it seems as though they go harder on Trump than for other people.

8:22Why is that? God, he's disgusting that man. Alistair, Neil Orford, I'm a big fan of the podcast and the motto disagree agreeably. However, does Alistair feel he always sticks by this when doing media outside the podcast? No, he does not.

8:42he occasionally. There is something quite, well you and I have had our ups and downs and we have had a few sort of choice spiky exchanges at times but you are quite a calming influence on me I think. But no, I can still get very, I can still get very aerated. Here is a bit of breaking news for you Rory and I think Neil Arthur might be interested in this as well. Have you followed this thing about BBC Question Time? They are doing leave voters is only episode on June 22nd in Clackton and C for the seventh anniversary of the Revrendum. And they've asked me to go on it and I've said, Jesus only, and they've asked you.

9:20Yes. That's kind of weird. You mean the audience, the audience will be Leavers only and you're going to be up there as a remainder? Well, the audience will believe us only and then they'll have a normal panel. I see, I see, I see. And they've, and most of the questions, if not all of the questions, are going to be about Brexit. From a Leavers perspective. from a leaveous perspective. And when it was announced that they were doing this format, there were lots of people on social media saying, this is typical of the BBC, they're pro -Brexit, they're always pandering blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

9:49And a lot of people were saying to me, don't do it, but I was thinking, well, actually, no, I think it'll be very, very interesting to see whether in a place like Clapton, where the audience is entirely leave voters. I think it will be genuinely interesting to see whether there's been any shift of opinion, and if so how it's taking shape. That's the thing. Now you having asked Neil Arthur's question suggesting I am not always sort of level headed and straight forward. Blue Toffee. Why has Rory been grumpy in the last few episodes? He was pretty rude to Jonathan Powell and then to Alistair over the COVID inquiry.

10:26Is he thinking of return to the benches and getting tribal? I hear there are a few seats available if he's interested. That's very sweet. Listen, I mean, obviously my attack on Jonathan Powell had zippo to do with being tribal or conservative. That was to do with my views on the Iraq war. And I have apologized a couple of times on that podcast that has nothing to do with it. And attacking me over the COVID inquiry, what's up? And attacking of the COVID inquiry, I don't think I was being that vicious, so the COVID inquiry. We definitely disagreed. I don't think I was being particularly vicious.

10:57We should acknowledge, by the way, that we're recording this on the day that the COVID inquiry proper has begun. Very interesting observation already, the lead QC for the inquiry, saying that one of the issues they're looking at is the level of preparedness. And apparently has already said that it may well be the case that we weren't very well prepared at all. We shall see. Look, I've got a question here that I wanted to use to come in on something on this. So Tim Northance, question for he whose mother is a bright -bart reader, should PMs get an honour list if they don't leave office to the general election.

11:33Question for he who headbutts doors open should PMs get an honour list at all. So I'd love you on that and then I've got something to say about that. I actually think the whole thing is utterly absurd. I'm so proud seeing the sort of people that have been put into the House of Laws right now that both Fiona and I have turned down pierrages. I agree with you there are some great people hours of lords, but I think the whole institution has had its day. And I just think the whole concept of resignation on us is utterly absurd. I remember Bill Clinton once saying that sometimes people think that you should get a blue ribbon for doing these jobs.

12:08The job is the blue ribbon. You know, I think to have worked, so people say it's to reward the people who've been there helping the Prime Minister, etc., etc. That is their reward. They've had an amazingly privileged experienced of having been a special advisor, a speechwriter, a press office or whatever it might be. The idea that then on top of that you should be sent into the House of Laws or allow for the rest of your life to call yourself Sir or Dame this or that, the whole thing is nonsense and I would get rid of them all. Here's my idea on this. I think that Boris Johnson has discredited so much.

12:41It was already being pretty discredited by what's happened actually over the last 100 years. I mean, Harold Wilson puts some pretty weird people in the House of Laws. But I think the central thing is I want to propose that if prime ministers want to keep doing things we should create a completely separate order. So a bit like, you know, the Royal Family has the Royal Victorian Order, which is a medal they give to people who've worked with the Royal Family. There could be a completely different system, which is called, I don't know, some politer term for friends of the prime ministers order, which Boris Johnson can splash out in every direction.

13:15Order of the liar and charlatan crony, the LLCC. Well, I'm seeing this as a thing that would extend to all Prime Ministers. So you could call it the order of St David or whatever you want to call it, but the point would be that everybody would know that it's for politicians and spads and party donors, and it's given as a kind of thing by a Prime Minister to make people feel jolly. I'd listen, I get the thing about the military. I see medals for military campaigns. I completely respect that and I think that is a good thing. But I think this notion that just because you happen to work for a Prime Minister, you're entitled to some sort of special honour, I just don't buy it.

13:54What I think what's so particularly offensive is that they get the same things that much more deserving people get. So I think what's so awful is that you're the astronomer royal, you're one of the most distinguished scientists in the whole of the United Kingdom. You become a Lord and then suddenly you find that some 29 -year -old spads become a lot. Or to give another example, let's say you did something impressive in the military and you got a CBE. And then suddenly you find that somebody who's worked for a few months and the press office in number 10 gets something that you've based. Well CBE for several sevens is like 25, 30 years of their career building up to this amazing thing and someone else picks it up in six months.

14:33So at the very least it should be a completely separate thing. You shouldn't be able to kind of make people feel that they are the astronomer royal or you know senior civil servant or a general by giving them the same titles. And we've apparently got this trust resignation on us to come. She's probably going to have a you know an honor per day that she was there. I mean the whole thing is utterly ridiculous and Rishi Soonak should just say no. I'm absolutely with you that prime ministers should be stopped from doing it and if they insist on it they can have a completely separate thing where they're not allowed to give anything that resembles anything that's given to deserving members of the public.

15:10So, I'm Astra, I think should we have a quick break? Yeah.

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17:58Now, here's a good one. I think we're going to agree on this one. Ben Clueger. In Obama, Barack Obama's most recent memoir, he describes Al Jazeera as the Arabic equivalent of Fox News. Is that fair? My answer is no. No, I absolutely know. I really find Al Jazeera has been very, very good. And I watch it a lot and often they give me information on Puts the World that nobody else is covering. And so I completely describe sad to see Obama. So I got a lot of time for Obama, very sad to see him say that. Now here's a great question, it is from somebody called At -Hiaman from Northern Ireland, which will get us first climate emergency, AI or another more lethal pandemic?

18:37And do I win most depressing question of the week? He definitely wins most depressing question of the week and we can add to it, we can add bioengineering, we can add robotics. I mean, you've all know a Harari who I was in touch with last week who's who's wrote this book, Sapiens, is very interested in the ways in which these threats build up and get on top of each other. I think that, well, one of the most important things that we have to talk about is AI, because it's moving at a different pace to climate change. Climate change is a horrifying existential threat moving very quickly. But AI, if you had autonomous general AI, you could see impacts beyond imagining within 18 months or two years.

19:23I'm beyond imagining. I mean, on a far higher scale than currently projected for climate change over the next 18 months, two years. That doesn't mean that climate change isn't an existential threat. It doesn't mean that it isn't one of the most fundamental threats to our planet and our survival. But if you're talking about what's hitting you straight away, if we don't get the regulation of AI right, we are in real trouble. There was a very, I think it was the New York Times of the day had a sort of quiz type thing where they had a load of quotes that people had said at the time that nuclear weapons were being developed.

20:00And things that are being said now, and you had to guess whether that was a statement made about nuclear weapons or about artificial intelligence. It was quite interesting because a lot of the ones that people were saying back then are exactly the things that we're saying now, which sort of did give me a kind of probably a full sense of hope. Here's a question from Charlie Rowan. Neil Kinneck, great man, and one of our regular listeners, repeatedly has said to students interested in politics, don't aspire to be politicians, instead first go out and do a proper job. But Alistair, your book encourages people to go out and aspire now.

20:33Who's in the right and our career politicians acceptable. I think we're both in the right, but in a different way. But what's your view on that? I actually do, I do like the idea of very young people going into politics. I came into politics quite late. And I remember having this conversation with David Cameron, so it was 2010, and I was a professor at Harvard University, and I'd spent a lot of the previous years in Iraq and Afghanistan. And he had suddenly said that people who'd never been involved in politics before could stand to be MPs because of the expenses scandal. So I sat down with David Cameron and I'd been told by Michael Ignatiif, who in fact is the guy that we're infuriating on leading next week.

21:12To say to Cameron, look, if I'm giving up my job as a professor at Harvard University coming back to Britain, will you tell me whether if I become an MP, I've got any chance of becoming a minister because Michael said clearly what you're interested in doing is running a government department. And I realized that when I asked David Cameron this, He looked at me with such kind of derision and contempt. Because from his point of view, he'd gone into politics at the age of 21. Conservative research department, he'd been a spad, he'd been through black Wednesday, he'd seen Blair take over, he'd spent seven years trying to get a parliamentary seat.

21:48He'd then fought his way to become leader of the Conservative Party. And here was me thinking I could just come in from another job and somehow become a minister. And he must have felt that you don't understand. This is what George O 'Brien often says. This is a game for professionals. It's not a game for amateurs. You can't just come in. So there's a huge culture clash there. And I think the public are very interesting on this. Sometimes they favor people like David Cameron who went in early on Nicholas Sturgeon, who basically was a politician from when she was 16. But other times I think they're quite attracted to people like Kierstama, who came in much later in life, having actually already got his knighthood from being direct for public prostitutions and became leader of the Labour Party after he'd only been in Parliament for a couple of years.

22:34I mean, I guess you need the mixed only, but I think both have their role. And, yeah, I think it's a very interesting, I think getting the mixed right is very hard, because of course, it depends upon people being chosen in different constituencies, of different interests and different needs. But I guess what the question is suggesting is that, you know, is there a right way or a wrong way to get into parliament? And the answer is there isn't. It's just so varied as how do people get there? Well, there's also the fact that one of the interesting things that's how difficult it is actually to come in in mid -career, that it takes a long time to get used to how weird things in our parliament.

23:10I mean, one of the things I'm trying to do in this book, Politics on the Edge is trying to describe the... No, no, Roy, Roy, it's politics on the Edge. Politics on the Edge. It's just described the strangeness, how surreal it is, the way the whips work, the way legislation goes through the fact that you don't really have a free vote to your relationship with the public, the way ministers work. And it takes such a long time to adjust to that. And if you haven't come in when you're young, so these people who come in when they're 22, it's sort of second nature to them. But if you're like, there was a guy called Archie Norman who was the CEO of Manchester.