151. Question Time: Feargal Sharkey on water pollution, drug legalisation, and fishing

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1:21Hello, welcome to the Restus Politics Question Time with me, Alistair Campbell. And for the first time, I think, without Rory Stewart, who was finally after 150 discussions between has been beaten by the logistics of travel and he's currently somewhere above the Atlantic not able to connect. However, Plan B is in my view as good as Plan A. I am not going to record this episode alone. Much as I would enjoy asking myself, Rory, do you think it's a good idea to polish private schools? I'm Rory saying yes. Instead, I'm delighted to say that I'm joined by a man who will be our next guest on leading, Fergal Shaki.

2:03Alistair, how are you? I'm very well. So you looking forward to being my presenter? I have to say that having kind of walked off stages and had opportunities in my life to say there was a mortal words good night, wembley and the number one record it all pales into utter significance at this moment is the greatest achievement of my life. Exams. That briefly I get to deputize for Rory and some kind of abstract kind of way. Excellent. Delighted to be here. Thank you for asking me. Pleasure. Well, when we do the leading episode, which we've got on Monday, we're going to do your whole life story, music, politics, punk rock and above all for me, you're, this is why you're going to be your leading role in the campaign against our government and the law.

2:46Now lots and lots will know you for all sorts of different reasons, but we put out of the thing this morning saying, if Rory was unavoidably detained and we had to get Fergal Shaki off the bench, send us in some of your questions. So can we run through a few? Play, please, don't, please. And then after we'll have a little break and then we've got some of the general questions that listen to sent in, which you and I can can knock about if you're happy with that. First question, we get some very, very influential important listeners. Mr Tim Farron, though less, the former leader of the government, Debra Kratz, who says, Fergal, if by some fluke, you became a majority shareholder in one of our water companies, what would you do first?

3:29Oh, you see, that's kind of the thing because I probably at this point in time would not want to be a majority shareholder. What would you do if you're in their shoes? Oh, I would actually just go, you know what? I've made 72 billion pounds out of this over the last 30 years. We've left these company 60 billion pounds in debt. We've absolutely creamed it. We've completely robbed the bill pair. I think these companies can still be profitable. I think we may have to some pain an hour way over the next five or six, 10, 15 years. So I'm just going to swallow hard. I'm going to grin and bear it. And I'm going to hang on and I'm going to do what I'm told because in 10 or 15 years time, I could end up with a company that's debt -free with a nice new, shiny sewage and water supply system looking forward to a profitable, successful future.

4:18Perfect. Or I could face bankruptcy. Hoggy, I'd like to ask Fergal, how he began his activism and where did the interest in health of rivers come from and if he has a favorite river? Favorite river is very simple. That'll be the river itching in Hampshire. There's a chalk stream. There's only 225 in entire planet. 85 % of the here in southern England. And I have to tell you we are treating them abysmely badly to the extent that we are decimating every single one of them. In my view, the river itching is just perfectly formed and should be the perfect illustration of what we need to try and protect and preserve for future generations.

4:57And where the interest came from? I've always had an interest in fly fishing. I find myself becoming chairman of the oldest fly fishing club in England anybody that's bored at this point in time can no turn over and not away screaming. I find myself deciding that on behalf of the club that I was chairman of that I was going to have to go and pick a fight with Deffra, Tim's water and the environment agency. Dr Luke Blasers -Juski, how do we site and engage local communities to connect with and protect their local rivers, particularly in cities? I'm asking as a long -term campaigner. That one's already there from my own experience, Alistair.

5:34And it was one of the reasons, again, I suspect we'll come back to. I began to realize four or five years ago. This country, and when I say this country, I mean England predominantly and Wales is peppered with local community grips full of incredibly decent people. Who for decades, in some part going back 30 years, have been trying to look after and preserve their little local river. They've known it's been failing. They know it's ill, but these people are not, emtomologists, hydrologists, biodeversally specialists. They're certainly not activists and campaigners. And that was one of the things that motivated me when I realized these decent people out there had put their faith in the system and the system took that trust and abused it in the most obscene way possible.

6:22Zebris, how long will it take to fix the sewage problem? What should I be doing? What you can do right now is somebody get in touch with your local MP and get in touch with your water company, voice to them your concerns, your outrage, your anger at what's been going on, what's been perpetrated in your name for the last 30 years. That's what's actually driving this forward. And as you've recently discovered as we speak 69 % of voters now think the water industry should be nationalized simply because of the sewage scandal and the impact it's been having in our rivers. Raise your voice, that's all I did.

7:00Neil Ward, all the focus in the national media seems to be on the sewage discharges by water companies, but environment agency figures suggest agriculture remains the most extensive cause of poor river water quality. What does Virgo think and be done about this? Oh well listen, that's completely true. And I will happily say that I made a strategic decision two or three years ago that I could use my resources as one book with a mobile phone and a social media kind and pick a fight with Debra government, the water industry, the environment agency, or also pick a fight with the NFU and agriculture.

7:36And clearly I thought that might have been overextending myself. I'm created enough awareness, enough of a beach head, enough outrage that we can now use that beach head to start extending it from sewage. And going, oh by the way, did you know that London is on the cusp of actually running out of water driven by the same grade failure regulation, collapse of the water system? And yes, agriculture actually is the biggest plitter in rivers in England and we do need to have that conversation. Elaine Wilson, does he still fish in the river for him? And is it clean these days? I don't because I don't get back at it for people's experience.

8:16I had this extraordinary upbringing. A young man, 10, 11, 12 years old, I could get on a bus in the centre of time, dairy, and 20 minutes later find myself standing on the banks of the river faun with a reasonably decent chance of catching a salmon. Look, extraordinary thing, a fish that has just swam 3000 miles from the faun out into the North Atlantic, returned to the river, it was born in, and there is this 10, 11 year old kid from dairy trying to kind of shout at it and go with your mind terribly just biting on the end of this fly and hanging onto it for a small part. Unfortunately, I'm afraid even Northern Ireland has been blighted by the impact of corporate greed and regulatory failure.

9:03The river faun is now blighted with what actually turns out to be possibly the biggest illegal dump site in the whole of Western Europe. In a place called Maboy, the chemicals and the sludge and slurry from that illegal dumping site is now leaching into the groundwater and beginning to leach into the river and as the people of my hometown are about to discover that also supplies the water supply to dairy the time I grew up in. There's a massive scandal there waiting to explode. Oh my god, I thought that was going to be one of the nice Well listen, is this warmed up pretty well? Oh absolutely, keep going.

9:42Take a little break and then we'll come back and you can throw a few at me, but I might throw some of them back. Fantastic.

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12:30Welcome back to the RSS Policy's Question Zone with me, Anastakambo. And me, Fergel Sharky. Come on, Fergel. Purely because you and I have a mutual friend, I suspect. A incredibly glorious man called Lord Dubs. Who not 24 hours ago got up and Parliament and Catherine sent in a question. What do you think of the instruction to paint over cartoon murals in order to make a silent sentence for children less welcoming? I'll tell you what I think of it. I would love to be in a very small space with Robert Generick and genuinely try to find out what has to happen to you as a human being that you think that is in any way justifiable.

13:15Especially, if you know this, Fergel is married to a woman who is the question we got this week. I can't remember who sent it in but said, what can we do to stop the home office's performative cruelty? And that's what it is. It's performative. The idea that there's going to be people in Syria sitting there thinking, oh, I've just seen in the news that there won't be any Mickey Mouse pictures. If we go to the reception centre, therefore that will determine me from trying to get there. I find it utterly hideous and I suspect you agree. And the reason I brought up for those of you that haven't seen it, you will find the aforementioned Lord Dubs last night, challenged the minister in the House of Lords, and for background Lord Dubs came to this country as a child on the Kinder Transport in 1939.

14:09And the minister's response to that one was pathetic. It was astonishingly corrupt and simply saying that government's actual attitude was utilitarian and that these kids did nothing and deserve nothing of comfort and compassion and the difficult circumstances they were in. And on behalf of Lord Dubs, a plague of locust upon all of the houses. Oh, I so the Rory would have definitely said that exactly the same way. Of course you would have. Steve, oh, there was a Steve one, the music industry, I suspect it's probably not the same man. You both give us like 17 new book recommendations every week, slight exaggeration and you clearly inhale books high often do both of you and both of you being Rory ASN.

14:51You actually read and how long in a usual session and at what pace a book, a week, a book a month, etc. I finished a book last night. The book I mentioned a few days ago called Orkney and I probably had that on the go for about four days. I try and read a one -fiction, one Chris Bryant is actually the both non -fiction. Chris Bryant has written a book about the state of our politics called Out of Order and definitely worth reading. My favourite chapter is this the worst parliament we've ever had and he answers yes. And the other one I'm reading West Streetings book. West Streetings written a really interesting book about his childhood.

15:35What about you, Fergley, a big reader? I am indeed an in fact, I don't really know if I've just finished reading a book, Rory Recommended which was to do with Protestant culture in Northern Ireland when he was visiting there a month ago. So was that the book that Rory Recommended written by Susan Carlin? It was only he was clearly heading up into Northern Ireland and I can't quite remember the context but he mentioned the Susie McCuy book, Northern Protestants and it's clearly it is just covered, it cover interviews, first -person perspectives of the Protestant community and how they perceive and view the world and indeed the last 400 years of Irish history and someone who was born and brought up and spent 20 years living in Northern Ireland brought up as a Catholic with a limited insight into the Protestant community.

16:20Absolutely highly recommended, everybody should buy it and indeed some of the current political leaders in Northern Ireland would be well advised to share Rory's advice, get yourself a copy, go and read it, you might learn something. Very good advice. Now this one I have a slight kind of personal interest in this one for professional reasons. From Georgina Newton, I am 13 years old and I'm an avid listener to your podcast, clearly a young lady with remarkably good taste. I'm also read the week and I've done so since I was nine Georgina, I think you're now showing off my dear but by the way, big round of applause well done you.

16:56Canada recently decriminalized drug possession and I was worried about the implications of this if it were cure in Britain. I have seen the damage drugs cause and if we taxed and enabled safer recreation drugs and use the profits for rehabilitation, drug safety programs and tackling crime would this work? Big question. It is a big question and if you've asked me that question 20 years ago, I definitely have said no. If you've asked me 10 years ago, I'd probably have said no, but I've definitely moved on it because I think the war on drugs has failed and I do think that we don't even focus on rehab in the way that we should.

17:36Now what about you? I suspect you have more experience of drugs than I do. We see, fill enough music industry for the last 10 or 15 years has worked with a number of charities to provide particularly the bigger festivals to provide drug testing facilities. On the simple basis that you don't want these young people are going to do this. So you may as well actually provide the security that if they're thinking of doing something they can actually take an onsite to a charity to a unit that will actually test and explain to them the purity of what it is they're about to take and then they can make an informed decision.

18:11Do you want to guess which government this year for the first year and 15 years ban the operation of those charities and those clinics onsite because these kids are going to go and do the stuff anyway whether we like their idea or not and you can as the music industry, I think, was trying to lead the way, trying to insecure them. If they were going to do that and make that kind of decision, at least there was been done within some sort of safe space. So would you go the whole hog and decolonize all drugs? You know what? I probably would go a quite a long way in that conversation because you're absolutely right.

18:43The war on drugs and invertecums has failed and I know some people that used to work professionally in that kind of area in trying to prevent drugs coming into this country and I suspect they'd even share that same opinion. Or at least they do with me on a Friday night done the pub after three pints of cider. Very last one I think Michelle Bennett, after seeing a number of high profile journalists that getting Osborne's wedding, it prompts me to ask about MSN director staff to keep politicians at arms length and surely getting too cozy will lead to soft questioning and not properly holding those in power to a kind.

19:20What's your view of that? Well, Nancy's obviously yes. I mean I wasn't invited to the wedding. Well that makes to this. I don't think it had gone. I did go, I must admit, when I worked for Tony Blair, I did go to some weddings that I was there not because I was a close friend. Now whether they're close friends or not, I don't know. But that whole relationship is way too cozy. I was surprised that some of the people who were there. I was very surprised that you probably know, Furgle, this is the most, you're now a co -presenter of the country's number one political podcast. I was surprised to see the presenters of the number two political podcast in the country were there.

19:59Indeed. As was indeed the presenter of the today's programme, Mr Robinson, I think it does make it harder. I think it does make it harder. And I'll tell you the other thing though that I found about our media more generally is this because there is an incestuous relationship. There's no doubt about that. And you see it in the way that people weave in and out of jobs. Now I went from journalism into the political side of the fence, but I was never really a proper journalist. I was always a bit of a, I was always the political, the political bit was more important. But I think that the socialising, the way that they just spend, they go on holidays together, they just scratch each others back the whole time.

20:42And I think it's, I think the public have wised up to it a bit. My only comment is I also didn't get an invitation. I can only, therefore, assume that Mr Gideon Osborne is not a fan of the undertones or my solo records. And I'm still dealing with the witches, the bigger blight, the fact he's not a fan of my music or I never got an invitation to the wedding. Did you not know until now that his name was not George? I had no idea. Absolutely no idea. But I guess I'll tell that public school thing and I'm not going to get you started on that again. Yeah, because a light rory's true, we don't believe in private school.

21:14We think they, they think we think they're a cause of most of the problems in this country. Well, I can name one school that seems to be at this moment in time, but we'll talk that idea there. Well, listen, Fergillis Meena, an absolute joy having you. I spent Rory a bit a little bit worried now that he said a proper, you know, performer in the role. But many thanks for joining me. Alistair, it was a pleasure and a delight and it is something that will carry with me for decades to come. Well, I thoroughly enjoyed having a new co -host for the day. Thurgel Sharkey, he's got a lot of them in there.

21:47And if you want to hear more of them, then you can tune into leading. Well, we'll be talking about his whole life and times. And if you can't wait to hear more of Fergill Sharkey, here's a few extracts. Now, I guess your character is key to this. You've obviously got a personality that you're driven and you, if you decide upon something, you go for it. I just want to go right back to the beginning and you've mentioned, you've mentioned Dairy a couple of times. You end up living most of your life in England. But how much of a Northern Irishman do you feel? But I would listen distinctly because it's what created me.

22:25And it is very Freudian, but invariably tell me about your childhood. And in my case, that was quite an interesting childhood. My father was chairman of the Labour Party in Dairy when there was such a thing. Yeah. Do you think, by the way, do you think there should be again? Oh, I think there should be. Oh, absolutely. And that's ironically enough for my father passed away. The Irish times did this quite big obituary. And even in the 1950s, he spent huge amounts of time in this ultimately futile effort of trying to reach out to the Protestant community on the simple basis that everybody needed to bury the hatchet of sectarianism because the industrialists in Northern Ireland were using that division to separate the working classes, to defuse their ability to make a cohesive, strong argument about pay conditions, holiday pay, maternity pay, housing, everything else.

23:20And it was used to exploit the working classes in both communities. Now, as it turns out, I could argue that my dad was clearly 40 years ahead of his time and trying to make that argument. And he never made the en route to it. He was also a branch secretary of his local union, the electrician's union. I'm still traumatized and probably spend years in therapy about being taken as an eight, nine -year -old child to meeting a union meeting and a men are in a room with four hundred of the men and my father. They're all referring to him as brother Sharky. And as a confused eight -year -old, I'm going to who the hell is.

23:55People have never met in these. You're not my brother. You're not my uncle. You're not my dad's brother. I have no idea who you are. What you call my dad, brother Sharky. The truth is, in the Sharky family, wasn't my dad was the political powerhouse. Like, oh, good Irish, materialical families. That would be my mother. My mum was massively motivated about the civil rights movement, massively motivated about trying to preserve the Irish language and culture in the arts and was friends with people like Brian Freel and General Casey and all kinds of people. And it was my mum who on the morning of April 9, 1969, demanded that the whole family climbed into the car.

24:38The dad drove us all to the opposite side of Ireland, whereas a family we took part in the people's democracy civil rights march between Delfast and Dublin, protesting against injustices to the Catholic community in Northern Ireland. So you'd have been 12. I was 10. You're 10 then, okay? 10 -11. Just a minute. And just on your names, we know you as Furgle Sharky. You're actually called Sean Furgle Sharky. Sean? Oh, I'm not sure. He's a really good, he's called Sean Furgle Sharky. And just tell us who you're named after. If anybody knows a song, a song called Shans South from Gary Singer. I'm afraid not even the rest of the politics podcast can afford that excessively modest free Shans South and Furgle, Hanlon were killed at Taekwana Police Station in Northern Ireland in January of 1957, a year before I was born.

25:32My mother clearly without the aid of ultrasound or other aids clearly decided that if her newborn child was going to be a boy, she was going to name him, Shan Fertil in honor of two dead Ayuribet. Now what might that tell you about my mother's politics? Well, it gives me a fair indication that she wasn't maybe as committed to the Labour Party because it's your dad. And how do you feel about that? I've listened to it, it's one of those things that I grew up in a household where it's extraordinarily thinking about it and it is incredibly frightening, but I hope it does answer your question. There was nights in my kitchen that the local plumber, the electrician, the housewife, the local poet, the local schoolteacher would discuss bringing down the national government in Northern Ireland.