154. Question Time: Ben Wallace, intellectual PMs, and the fight for the Israeli flag

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0:48Welcome to the Restus Politics Question Time with me, Astakamble and me Rory Stewart. So, Rory, should we start with Ben Wallace? Aha. Yes. I want to start with this one because of the name of the person who's asked the question, Rory Conboy. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I'd like to know Rory and Astus opinions of Ben Wallace. We rarely hear about you in the news. I'm not sure about that as we do home secretaries, etc. But he's been touted for PM before and now NATO chief. Yet I doubt many people know who he is. I guess he is fairly low profile for a defense secretary in the middle of a war. Yeah, he was very high profile, of course, at the beginning of the war.

1:24And I think, was impressed a lot of people when he was Boris Johnson's defense secretary, which put him in, he was leading the polls when Boris Johnson stepped down to be the potential Liz Truss alternative. And again, to be the potential Rishi Sunerkel term, but chose not to run in either situation. And I believe it's now signaling that he's going to stand down at the next election. No, you said it. He's going. He's somebody who I've known for a very, very long time. He's actually my neighbor from Creepham Scotland. So Creepham Scotland producing these great statesmen, as you can see. Ben grew up about about a mile away from me.

2:00He was a Scottsgaard's officer. He was a member of the Scottish Parliament and then got into Parliament five years ahead of me. He really did not get on with David Cameron, who completely refused to give him any kind of job at all. And Ben was a sort of a very, very funny, a Serbic backbencher, who could be absolutely relied on to take piss out of everybody. He was Ken Clark's PPS and he loved Ken Clark and very unusually for a PPS is a member of Parliament who was supposed to act as the minister's interaction with Parliament. And for most people, it's not a very big job. It's an unpaid job, but Ben Mon is completely embraced it, would have lunch with Ken Clark almost every day.

2:41Obviously a door is spending time with him. So I was very fond of him, but he wasn't really getting anywhere. And his career only really took off finally when David Cameron stepped down. Theresa May came and made him security minister. He managed both Boris Johnson's campaigns to be leader, which normally would be a, from my point of view, a black mark against someone, except he could not have been more charming. He called me up and he said, Rory, you know, I'm supposed to be calling you up to get shoot a vote for Boris Johnson, but my honest advice to you is don't bother. It's not going to have any impact on your career one way or another.

3:15Keep your head down. You don't need to endorse any of these people. So I'm quite a supporter of Ben Mon is. And I think he's done a pretty good job as defense section will be missed. Well, he's off and I can't quite work out whether he jumped before he was pushed. The talk was that Sunak was going to chop him in the upcoming re -shuffle. So he did an interview where his military credentials were highlighted and he said that he'd done his time and he was fed up of waking up, being woken up in the middle of the night the whole time and he was, he was going to go off. He had a very nice popper, Suella Bravaman.

3:47Oh good. What did he say about her? Are we like that? Well, he basically said that, you know, essentially I'm paraphrasing, but you know, if only we had a home secretary who did their job properly, I wouldn't have to keep shipping out soldiers to clear out the mess that they made. He's an unusual person because you know, it's his friendship with Ken Clark complies. He was a romana, very, very pro -European, but also strangely seemed to be sort of charmed by Boris Johnson, which is the one thing that I don't fully understand about him. But I think he's been an interesting defense secretary. I think he's highly credible.

4:19I think he's performed well. He hasn't been public eye in much recently, but I think that's partly to do with number 10 message control. He was much more public under Boris Johnson. I think he performs well in the media because he knows what he's talking about. I do think from the military's point of view, it's sometimes been a bit challenging. They don't always like having a defense secretary who's been in the military, because obviously he has pretty firm views on things and is often challenging the conventional wisdom. So he's an example of something we've talked about, but in the past about whether one really wants ministers who come from that field, the great advantages they know what they're talking about, disadvantages that they often can get into the micro details, which is what I was accused of doing in the foreign office.

4:59I think maybe the disadvantages that they think they know what they're talking about. That's how I think that the top military brass sometimes think of soldiers who become politicians. Donna Mooney asks whether we might be able to highlight an important event, which is an exhibition on the 5th of July, victims and prisoners of bill amendment, tabled to move the following clause, resentencing those serving a sentence of imprisonment for public protection. I know this is something we've talked about before, but I thought you might like to give it a plug. Donna Mooney has been campaigning for an extraordinary injustice in the British system, which is that relatively briefly introduced by David Blunkeh, was a new form of prison sentence where you could be sent to prison indefinitely.

5:43It was a sort of life sentence, but it was given to people who had committed minor offenses. And the idea was that they'd remain in prison until such a time as someone sought. They were safe to leave. And Donna connected with this because her brother, who had committed a relatively minor crime, had been left in prison for a long time and was eventually tragically killed in prison. So she has been campaigning for this issue. These sentences were abolished under David Cameron, so they don't exist anymore. You can't get one of these sentences, but governments have been very reluctant to let out the people who were sentenced during that seven -odd year window.

6:18And so many of them are recalled to prison on trivial offenses and end up spending most of their lives in prison without having committed offenses for which they would be entitled to get that kind of sentence. All right, question for you, sir. Bill Jones, more straightforward name than Rory Connartist. Bill Jones, how necessary is it Alistair for PMs to be intellectually clever? Oh, that's a very good question. I like my political leaders to be very, very clever. Oh, I think people underestimate how clever you need to be to do that job well. And I think you definitely all sorts of leadership skills and empathy.

6:57By clever, I mean the ability to analyze a problem based upon studying it from every, every which way. So yeah, I like them to be clever. What do you think about the kind of classic figures who were deeply, deeply admired and respected, but didn't necessarily have a reputation for being very clever. So I guess Willie White Law, Clement Lee, Jim Callahan, I mean, none of these people were seen as great intellectual titans, but people thought they had kind of judgment bottom. They were able to do a good job. No, I would say all of those were clever. The only, the two I knew personally, Jim Callahan and Willie White Law, and you Willie White Law a bit when I was a journalist.

7:36And I think he had that kind of, he put an act, I mean, not as sort of blatant as Johnson's act, but he sort of, I think he liked to come over as a bit bumbling, but I thought he had a very, very sharp mind. And Jim Callahan lightwise, I think was acute intelligent. It depends what we mean by clever, I guess, because you also do need impolities. You need to be a bit streetwise. You need to be able to look after yourself in whatever circumstances you get thrown at you. I think that's what what Michael Ignacio has struggled with when we talked to him on leading. Yeah. And definitely in American politics, there's a strong urge to not come across as being too clever by half.

8:13So I remember LBJ, Robert Carris book is full of examples of LBJ being as kind of coarse and outspoken as he possibly can be when he talks about talks about the CIA. He says that the CIA remind me of a cow I used to have in Texas called Daisy. Whenever I was trying to milk it, its tail would flick the shit into the milk.

8:37But that's quite clever. That's quite clever. I don't think LBJ was foolish, but he definitely didn't go for intellectual name dropping. Now what are there so from high all -caste politicians always seem to want to reform public services. Should they look closer to home? Should there be a complete reform of the House of Commons, the House of Lords, the electoral system, MPs, expenses should every aspect of our politics be looked at to bring our system up to date? My answer is yes. 100%. 100%. We desperately need to bring our system up to date. The promise, of course, will get into the devil details how we do it.

9:10But I think a proportion of representation system that would allow new parties to emerge, so these sclerotic old horrors of the Conservative and Labour Party can be disrupted a bit. I think a chance to have a properly appointed professional House of Lords, which wasn't staffed full of ageing old politicians and Boris Johnson's spats would be a great step forward. I think much stronger local democracy, much stronger local mayors with proper fundraising powers. Anything from your side on that? Well, I think this goes back to what we've told about in the main podcast. I really, really, really hope Labour get into this in a big way.

9:47An Angela Rainer, I think, was putting her a toe in the water of it in her speech last week. So yeah, this is what I mean. I think that this isn't about tax and spend. This is basically about saying one of the reasons. I mentioned that polling that was presented at the Tony Blair Institute conference, the Kia Starmer Spokar, it could not be clearer that people don't just think the country's stuck. They think that our politics is part of the problem. So if it's part of the problem, you have to change it. Very good. I've got one for you. Brian Whale. I have a question possibly more for Alistair, but would love to hear about Rory's experiences.

10:23I'm 28, an already a senior person in my company and flirted with Labour overstanding as a counsellor. I suffer with depression and during these episodes feel guilty about losing my edge when it comes to my work. Often senior individuals are less inclined to talk as they feel it could undermine their position. What are both your experiences on this and could you share any advice? I'm going to give you that one. Well, I would say don't feel guilty. Just go with whatever those feelings are. I get that. I get times when I, if I'm in the middle of a depression when I feel worthless, it's not just, you know, I just can't do anything.

11:00But I have to tell myself in those situations that there are lots of times when I do do a lot. So I think it's sort of retaining a sense of your own self and your self -confidence when you were depressed is very, very, very, very difficult. But keep going. All you can do is keep going and understand that 99 times out of 100, you're going to get through it. I must say, by the way, a wonderful letter the other day from a guy who had read my book, Rory, which is called, which is called, but what can I do? Thank you. And, is it, you're going to remind people what my book's called? Your book is called Politics on the Edge.

11:39Available for pre -order now coming out in September. This is the time to get the pre -order of that rare first edition copy for anyone listening. Sorry, that rare first edition copy, Rory, they just press a button and they come out. I if you go to, if you get a least keep it serious, that's like the Brexit 12 trillion pound deal, the rare first edition copy. Anyway, this letter came from a gentleman by the name of Stephen Lister. And he said that as a result of reading my book, but what can I do? He decided to become a candidate in his local council election. And that is part of what I'm trying to do with the book is to get people to think whatever's going on in their life, they can give something to go.

12:28So, well done, Stephen, and good luck. And I hope you win in your upcoming by -election. Very good. Listen, on this, there's a lot of skull duggery going on and it's, happens we've seen with the labor election. So, Jamie Driscoll and thanks for being talking about, it's happening with the Tories too. There's people getting in touch with me with stories of individual constituencies shifting the dates of their selection to make sure they can maneuver particular candidates in and other particular candidates out and all this kind of stuff. Part of the political reforms we need is much more clarity and transparency about the way these people are selected because in some of these seats, particularly safe seats, labor or conservative.

13:09It's the sort of primary selection that determines who's going to be the member of parliament, moral, less than the general election. Yeah. Views on Nicosea and Cyprus might pair, and I'm doing this because this guy has asked his questions so often. Next week, March, 49 years since Turkey invaded Cyprus. What are your views on Nicosea being the last divided capital city in the world? What are the prospects of the Cyprus issue ever being resolved? Not good, I would say. Well, I mean, I think it's incredible that it's been almost 50 years. 1974, there was a coup d 'état. Greeks at that point was ruled by the colonels and they sponsored a coup d 'état in Cyprus.

13:47Five days later, the Turkish military invaded. 80 % of the population on Cyprus was Greece. 150 ,000 Greeks were then pushed out on the Cyprus, and then a normal number of Turks were then pushed north. And the standoff comes from that moment. If you think about it, the UK has these two sovereign base areas in Cyprus. And since 1960, has had quite substantial deployments. And I remember my friend Ambassador Richard Holbrook in the United States seeing this as an issue that was going to be solved in the 1980s. But we're still in a situation with very, very significant presence. And essentially a frozen conflict between Turkey and Greece following an invasion.

14:33And a situation that defines the European Union, because the votes of Cyprus have huge consequences in terms of things like Turkish accession. And very sadly, in a way that nobody could have imagined in 1960, something that I can't see an easy way towards solving. And one almost gets the sense as 50 years past that people give up, give up the energy. I mean, it is the negotiations just keep going on. They'll have another round, and then another round. And I guess quite a lot of the people who were involved in the negotiation at the start will be dead that have died before this thing got resolved.

15:11Here's a little quiz question for you. I know you love your history. What was the name of the British general who drew the line on the map of Nikisir that led to the divide? Oh my goodness, I don't know what's the answer to that. The answer is Peter Young. And I only know that because somebody sent me something to read about this a few weeks ago. Right, lots more questions to come out of this. Then let's take a quick break. Oh good luck.

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16:50Our leading guests paid. Up the pyramid. Can you clarify if any of your guests are paid? I don't want my subscription to be funding the likes of Jerry Adams or George Osborne. Well, there we are. Are you funding a terrorist ouster or an austerity guy? Well, because of austerity, George Osborne's living standards have collapsed calamitously. So we paid him the princely sum of absolutely zero. And we paid Jerry Adams zero as well. To cut to the chase, we don't pay our guests. For some extraordinary reason, up to this moment, the guests seem to feel sufficient privilege to come on this show without us having to pay them.

17:30They are all free guests. Good question, though. Who would you, if somebody came on and said, I'll only come on if you pay me, is there any guest in the world for whom you think that would be justifiable? Doesn't as gracious me. Oh, that's a really good question. It would have to be somebody that really irritated you. And I just don't know enough about burn to be able to put my finger on who exactly it would be that I could pay to come and wind you up. Michael Seal, the UK's music industry can be counted as one of our best exports. Why, especially since the Troy's came to power, his music being neglected in schools when the benefit of learning an instrument and participating on the ensemblers of all types and sizes are huge to society.

18:11Now, even though you're not a massive music, Rod, Rory, would you agree with the sentiment of that question? And also, when we talked to Fergel Sharkey on the leading podcast, he was making the point that Britain and America, the absolute superpowers of music and Brexit has made it a lot harder for Britain to maintain those status. Well, I think there's a huge case to be made for more government investment in culture and the arts and music and other things like video games and basic science. The tough challenge, I guess, in education is that there are only so many hours in the day. It's all very well and somebody actually challenged me on the song Twitter when I was talking about, you know, the number of hours you can fit in in a boarding school.

18:58In a boarding school, you've got huge resources, a lot of money in private schools and teachers who can then run a day, which is 12 hours long, right? And the problem, I think, in most schools in Britain is how do you balance the government's attempt, which I think is completely right to make sure that we went up the pieza scales in literacy and maths, I think, I was a very important thing to do, while also providing space in the curriculum for all that other stuff and to do it at a high quality. I mean, that's something definitely in Cumbria when I visited schools that people often complained about, which is that they felt that yes, there was the theatre offering in the school, there was a music offering in the school, but it wasn't at the quality that they would like to see.

19:42So, here we go. Joy Adams, this is a good one. This is worth listening to the podcast just for this. I worked for Virgin Atlantic for two years and used to suffer from terrible jet lag. So, I picked up a trick from the pilots. Workout eight o 'clock in the morning in your arrival destination, subtract 15 hours from that and fast for that length of time, brackets only drink water, sleep as much as you can, your body will go into starvation mode and upon eating a hearty breakfast will reset your body clock, avoiding all jet lag. I haven't asked a question, so will you run for America next year and can I volunteer for your campaign?

20:23Well, what's the answer to that? Yes or no? I'm afraid I don't think I'm going to be doing so. If I do run for Mertho, Joe, I will definitely be in touch. Listen, I saw that question and I was, as I confessed on the main podcast, I was about to take a flight and I just couldn't work it out. I mean, I used to be really good at maths, but I don't understand how that works. Also, I'm very worried about pilots doing long haul without having any sustenance at all. That's a good point. So, how do they, tell me what you have to do? So, let's say I'm getting applied to... This is something called, I mean, I think a lot of listeners will know about this.

21:00This is called Cotosis. So, many people actually think it's quite good for you to do a 15 hour gap between meals. Many people skip breakfast, skip dinner now. It's kind of intimate at fasting because your body begins to digest toxins is the claim by driving your body into Cotosis. But there's no doubt at all. I wear one of these aura rings, which monitors my sleep and readiness. And it is total nice and day. If you have a very light supper or don't have supper at all, you sleep so much better than if you have a meal, let alone a meal and a drink. Well, I should have done it because I've I slept about an hour and a half last night.

21:38Lady Gira Sous. She actually asked about four questions, and I'm going to give you this one. It just says, Boris Johnson, new neighbors and EU flags. Have you heard about this? No, I've gone then. So, basically, you know when Boris Johnson goes for those 20 yard runs if he sees any cameras and then he gets back in a car. But we see him on television constantly doing his little jogs for the cameras. The neighbors, near where he's bought this posh gaff down in the middle of the night. I don't know where, where you just put a plenty of permission in for a new swimming pool. They've started to raise European flags.

22:10So, when he goes out for a jog day, he has to run past several European flags. Well, what do we think of that, Roy? I quite like that. Well, I think that sounds very British. Sounds very jolly in British. Speaking about more sort of, yeah, I suppose it's more steaming ahead. Things have gotten pretty crazy around here, even by Israeli standards. Every conversation eventually reaches this topic. Spending Saturday nights at a demonstration has become standard practice, and I have sunscreen and a flag ready to go at all times. But since we're also immersed in this, I'm actually wondering what things look like from the outside.

22:51I'd love to hear your take on this. So, I'm actually going to be in Israel Palestine tomorrow, and it is really fascinating. As Sivan says, there are, you know, over 100 ,000 people in the street now every Saturday night. The flag that Sivan is carrying is almost certainly in Israeli flag because the protesters are trying to make it very clear that they are supporters of the state of Israel, but very angry about BB Nethanyu's reforms on the judiciary, which we've talked about in a previous podcast. These extraordinary, I mean, it's always the classic move of populist authoritarianists to try to overhaul the judiciary and stop the judiciary from being able to challenge the executive and legislature.

23:40I think people have been struck, particularly in the US, by how peaceful these demonstrations are, that they've been going on week in week out, and that they're conducted in very good humour, and that it's a sign of a particular kind of maturity of one part of Israeli civil society, but of course, people outside are also noticing that this is happening at the same time as the attacks on Jeanine, and how those crowds 30 years ago would have included many more people from the old Israeli left who would have been much more concerned with the issue of Palestine, and it's, there's been a sort of bifurcation in Israeli politics where a progressive group has emerged very concerned about the Israeli constitution, but they seem to be less and less concerned about the question of Palestine, which remains very raw and unresolved.

24:28Well, it's like, you know, when we were talking about Cyprus and the divided capital, I was thinking that is there a danger that the Middle East peace process in Sephiros, it relates to Israel and Palestine just sort of drifts on forever without any real resolution. And I think there's a general new concept that it's not going to get resolved unless some of the big powers, especially the United States, get focused, stay focused, and really try to drive it. And there seems to have been something of a breakdown between, in relations between Biden and Netanyahu, the White House are now saying that, you know, they might meet sometime later in the year, Herzog is going to be making a visit.