169. Question Time: Imagining Labour’s first 100 days in power, Australia’s Indigenous Voice referendum, and compulsory politics in schools

0:00Thanks for listening to The Restless Politics. Sign up to The Restless Politics plus to enjoy ad -free listening and receive a weekly newsletter. Join our members' chat room again, early access to live show tickets. Just go to TheRestlessPolitics .com. That's TheRestlessPolitics .com.

0:20Welcome to The Restless Politics question time with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alistair Campbell. And Rory, I think we should start with this one, but fairly briefly. Adina Plays, please, can you talk about the voice referendum in Australia? I think we should talk about the voice referendum in Australia a fair bit in the coming weeks because the campaign has just kicked off. Yeah, well, tell us a bit. Tell us a bit about it. You've been following it more closely than me. So this is a referendum that's been promised. I'll just read the question. To alter the constitution, to recognise the first peoples of Australia by establishing an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander voice, do you approve this proposed alteration?

0:57In other words, is giving a proper voice within the constitution to the indigenous people of Australia. And I would have thought that would be a kind of slam dunk because Australia has had a very troubled history. They've made massive progress. You have the famous apology from when Kevin Rudd was prime minister. And this seems to me as a logical next step. But, you know, I think it's going to be very, very difficult. And I just been looking at the polls. Now, the campaign started now. And so, therefore, things can turn around. But I think it's fair to say that the no campaign has been getting momentum.

1:31You know, when this thing first, I always 22, yes, was standing at 68 % and the no campaign, low 30s. And it's now sort of looking like 55, 45 in the polls. Now, that can be turned around in six weeks. And it's like all of these things. It's like, you know, when Merkel and Hollande said to camera and for God's sake, don't have a referendum, it always becomes about other things. There's a lot of sort of, you know, this horrible stuff online that is racist. There's some terrible conspiracy theories that are doing the round online. And the opposition, the official opposition who probably just want the government to lose, they've undernought about whether to back it, whether not to back it.

2:13They've decided now not to back it. And they're running this line. If you don't know, vote no. In other words, if you've got any doubts about it, just sort of kick it out. I think it would be a terrible, terrible shame if if it doesn't go through. Let's talk about it. I guess the principle is about whether you should be recognizing separate categories of citizens in the constitution and what that will mean and how that plays through. But really great subject to do more of. Now, you wanted also, I think, asked to talk a bit about mental health this week. I do. In fact, tomorrow, I am going one of my rare visits into parliament because rethink mental illness are publishing a survey and a report, which I think politicians should should heed.

2:59One of the disappointing things, I think, I was very you know, full of praise for Keir's Tharmers reshuffle, but actually, I think, downgrading mental health, it was a shadow cabinet position. No, it's not. I'd rather wish they hadn't done that. But more in common, I've done a series of polls and it shows the mental health is far higher the political agenda, as far as the public is concerned that we might think. It's actually, for people under 40, it's the, they list it as the fourth most important issue. For the general population, they list it as the sixth most important issue. So it's behind things like the cost of living in NHS, but they've got it ahead of crime, education, ahead of Brexit.

3:36And the thing that should interest labour because they're sort of focused obsessively on this, you know, red wall type voter as they see it. This polling is quite interesting. We can put the report in the newsletters quite long, but it's done by a group called More In Common that you will know. And it's segmented polling. They're not looking at the populations a whole, they're not, they, they segment people into these categories. Progressive activists, something that I'm you and me, civic pragmatists, disengaged battlers, established liberals, loyal nationals, disengaged traditionalists and backbone conservatives.

4:07If we put the report out, people can, can sort of read it in more detail. But what's interesting is that the loyal nationals who are the ones that you would say were former working class labour, switch to Brexit, back Johnson, etc., for them, only they, only the progressive activists are more concerned about mental health. And I think that's probably because so many of those people will know people who've got mental health conditions who are really struggling to get hurt. Well, we've had many questions about this. We had a, I mean, question from Andrew Douglas, who's strategic development officer for health and social care, partnership in Scotland, talking about this and talking about the effects on MPs, which is interesting.

4:46I mean, I, when I was in parliament, I write a little bit about this in the book, the number of MPs who went through very extreme situations. I don't, I don't want to name them because it's very personal, but there were MPs who tried to kill themselves in very, very dramatic public ways. There were MPs who had very public breakdowns in very, you know, ways that I think they found very difficult, very embarrassing. And I think MPs are getting a bit better about talking about it. Did you feel, I mean, when did you start really talking openly about mental health? Was that a difficult thing for you when you began?

5:19I started talking openly in terms of my own circle after my breakdown in the 80s because I had no choice. I'd had a breakdown, every new that I'd had a breakdown. I went to work, all sorts of stories were doing the rounds about what I'd be, what had happened. So I just decided to tell everybody very openly what had happened. And in terms of campaigning more openly, that was a lot later. But I've, I've always felt better for being open about it. And that's what I always say to people, I think it's a very personal choice for people. And I know lots of MPs who, you know, including from your old party who phoned me up and say, I actually had, there are a few people that I, I was talking to before the last election, who one of whom was suicidal, I think, and couldn't face the campaign.

6:02Now, to be fair, did it and won and is still there and does now get professional help. But I think it would be very reluctant to talk about it. I've certainly never heard him talk about it publicly, but would be very reluctant for me to say his name so I won't. Others, we've talked about Charles Kennedy before, I think Charles would have been benefited from being open. And I think he'd have found the public and parliament much more supportive, but he was very, very scared about that. So this, this, interesting, this thing is going to be held in parliament. Hopefully there will be lots of MPs and peers there.

6:32What Rethink are trying to do is to say to the politicians, listen, you are missing a trick here by not focusing more than you do on mental health. You're not addressing the needs of the people, but actually politically, you are, you're in a bad place on this. Question from Donna Moody. I wondered if you might be able to discuss and show the recent UN statement about IPP. These are these indeterminate sentences for public protection. It's stopped, David Cameron stops it, but it was introduced by David Bunkett. And in the past, during that period, you could be given an indeterminate sentence sentence, which could continue until people thought she was safe to release and could often be that you committed quite a minor crime and that you were given one of these sentences.

7:16And people have been stuck for years and years and years. And there's been a UN report that's just come out. Donna Mooney's own brother died while on an IPP sentence. A recent UN report has come out saying, basically, this is cruel in humane. It's degrading. The report points out that 65 IPP prisoners have died by suicide. And the rates of self -harm, suicidal attempts are incredibly harmed. Two and a half times more likely than the general prison population. And the general prison population is much, much more likely than the general public to be doing suicide attempts and thinking about suicide.

7:56So it's awful. And I do hope that one of the things Kirstaama could do, would have the courage to do when he comes in, is to say it's not enough just to abolish these sentences, but to listen to the fact that the UN is now calling on this and release these prisoners. Yeah. Now here's when it probably, you've done probably done more of this than I have done a bit of this in my time, is door knocking effective? James O .B. Is knocking the doors of constituents proved to be effective in winning elections? Well, we don't really know. I mean, it's something that we do a lot of. It's like a huge ritual.

8:28And it's the sort of right of passage for MPs. You proved your local association that you're a good MP by knocking on a lot of doors. And a lot of the skills that MPs develop for years before they become MPs, remember most MPs don't get in the first time. Not like you, Rory. No, most of them stand in unwinnable seat, fight to get a seat, have to prove themselves doing so. Often seven, eight years of their lives before they become MPs, they're spent going around plotting round doorsteps, sticking leaflets through with generally a couple of elderly volunteers, the local parties that deploy a pretty small usually.

8:59A lot of this is about how you get your finger in and out of the letterbox without catching it on the metal and above all dogs. How you stop yourself being bitten. Yeah. One of my most ardent campaigners who was a veteran, he was a colonel, he'd served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Managed to get so badly savaged that he stopped leafletting for me entirely. You know, it's interesting. In recent bi -elections, the, he was talking to us, involved in one of the campaigns recently, who said that they were seeing fewer and fewer and fewer of the territories on the ground, delivering leaflets. And that might be because they had fewer activists out, but I suspect this because far more resources now are going into direct online campaigning.

9:42I think a lot of it, he asked what value of it is. Of course, you can reach more people more quickly on social media and through posting leaflets, but it is if nothing else so important for the MP to be out meeting a hundred people and hearing from it gives you a pulse on the constituency every week. And you shouldn't, there's a drive, obviously, to try to do it as efficiently as possible. Get a leaflet through, work out whether they're going to vote for you or not. Get off the doorstep, move on. I think that's completely wrong. Are you one of those candidates who, if they say, would you like to come in for a cup of tea, you're straight in there and eating cake?

10:17Well, definitely. And I think, you know, Mr. Stachael was famously irritate people like this. She'd turn up at a door and it would say, I'm voting labour. And normally the advice says, get out of there, get on to the next door, but she would stand there for 45 minutes trying to convince the person that they were wrong. And there's something positive about that. A politician who cares enough to want to actually get into the argument with the constituent rather than being like, ah, never convince him, I'm going to go on. I think we can all agree that she liked an argument. She liked an argument.

10:43On the other, I must say, I've found incredibly refreshing this week hearing Cedit Khan out and about doing interviews defending the ULAS policy, which is getting so much flak. I think people respect that sort of approach. Small shout out to him as well. I noticed Regent Street. Oh, I saw you tweeted it. Yeah, when I was running against him to be Mary London, one of my things was I was obsessed with that. He promised panel of these trees. There were no trees on Regent Street. Nine others covered the trees on Regent Street. So shout out to Cedit Khan. Okay, we're going to get lots more questions to come.

11:13Let's have a quick break.

11:19This isn't ad from BetterHelp. At the moment, we're getting advice from everywhere. You just have to go on TikTok. Could be Alice's cold plunges, could be my attempts to meditate or the digital detox that I'm doing in Colombia. But of course, one of the things that we know is that it can be incredibly valuable to talk to another human being, somebody who's actually been trained as a therapist to work through these ideas, calmly, objectively and professionally. And as the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a very diverse variety of expertise.

11:55They've got over 5 ,000 therapists in the UK. They've helped more than five million people globally and you can join in session literally at the click of a button. Change therapists anytime. So obviously not about fixing you, but it's about hearing yourself clearly, maybe for the first time. So talk it out with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10 % off their first month at BetterHelp .com slash rest politics. That's better H -E -L -P .com slash rest politics. Jack Daniels is proudly served and find establishments, questionable joints, and everywhere in between. So no matter where you go and every bar, you'll always know someone by name.

12:37Jack. Jack and Pope. Shot a Jack. Jack Daniels, please. Right away. That's what makes Jack Jack. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility .org. Jack Daniels, an old number seven on registered trademarks, copyright 2025 Jack Daniels, Tennessee Whiskey, 40 % alcohol by volume 80 proof.

12:58Right, question for you coming in. Labors first 100 days Caroline K. We've been told by Starmer no wealth tax, no income tax increase, no promises from labor of us, new expenditure either. So what in almost from raw issues should be the first 100 days policy for any party hoping to win the next election? What should labor's first 100 days be? I find the whole 100 days thing a completely false construct, but I think the, no, when he gets, if you get you, keep saying when he gets in, I'm going to stick to if because I think it's important never to be complacent. I think if he gets in, clearly the first thing is forming a government.

13:32I think fairly early on, hopefully the the first King's speech will flow very, very clearly from the campaign, but it will depend on the outcome to be absolutely frank. If we do end up with the coalition government, it will become a bit harder to be clear about that. But I think the, you know, he's got to do something to dress the cost of living crisis very, very, very quickly. Health service is going to need a kind of urgent radical plan straight away, ditto schools. I think a very, very focused, clear campaign on the public services, what I think people are going to be looking for. And at the same time, we taught on the main podcast about this, you know, how do you generate growth?

14:10A big growth plan that sort of signals to people, the economy is going to be done in a different way. I mean, they would be my first sort of first shot. What about you? Well, we've got a related one that maybe I could take, which is Audrey Pike. What would be your five priorities if you were to win the next general election, and what PM in order the most important? Now, obviously being asked five priorities, whether I think thought about it's a bit tough. But I would say that following on from you, the first thing is you need a very, very clear economic plan and policy that recognizes what went wrong in the 90s and 2000s, recognize what's gone wrong under the conservatives.

14:43And here's a starter. I think it's going to involve industrial strategies, but it's industrial strategies where you don't make your investment only on the basis of financial return. But you look at the impact on environment, you look at the impact on social justice, and you do it in a way that doesn't return to the 1970s. There's a real tendency to think, or we can just go back to the trade and investment policies, 70s, which were very rigid, very, very wasteful. So they've got to be quick, or more flexible. You need to think about public investment and how big that's going to be. We talked about that in the last pod.

15:19So set a figure for public net investment, get it out closer to the average and developed countries. Third thing for me would be political reform, bring in proportional representation, make use of citizens assemblies. But you can't do that unless you can't do that, this is in the manifesto, Kenny. And it's not going to be in the manifesto. Well, he could, but he'd had struggled to get it through the House of Commons unless it was in the manifesto. And you're right, there'll be a constitutionalist, big constitutionalist, you're doing that without having a referendum or putting in the manifesto, I agree.

15:46I do hope that as part of the first pitch, once he gets saying, because don't underestimate how much, even with a small majority, even with a coalition, you have a lot of power in those early days to shape things. And I do hope that part of the campaign pitch is about saying our politics has got to change and we've got to lead that change. And that can take even into all sorts of interesting areas. So I do hope that happens in the first 100 days. Then I mean, just coming to the end, I think much more generous to open foreign policy. We need a much clearer sense of how Labour's going to engage with international development.

16:21Think about what's happening in Africa now. Think about what its partnership is with the US. And then the final thing, I think, is you need a narrative that brings that all together. You need a connecting thread. And I'd suggest the connecting thread is about decentralisation. It's about getting power down to people. I actually thought that was one of the most interesting parts of the discussion with Ed Davies, that the whole thing about empowerment. And maybe we should tell people, once we've done Cathy Ashton next week, we're then doing our first joint interview with two mayors, Andy Burnham and Andy Street.

16:55And I do think the whole devolution agenda can be accelerated. So I think there's a massive opportunity in political reform. I get the feeling that Labour is so focused on economy, cost of living, health service schools, red wall, I get all that. But don't underestimate, for the country as a whole, how much people are feeling, they want this country to change and part of that has to be the political change. And you do want to feel in those 100 days that there's a sense of energy direction. I remember you lot coming in and how exciting it was. I mean, almost immediately the first thing I remember was the announcement of the independence of Bank of England.

17:31Am I right in saying that was something that you'd held back? Certainly for me in the public, I wasn't aware of it until the announcement came after you came. It was like a surprise at the back pocket. I think we had a line in the manifesto and said, we would do everything we could to encourage economic stability. Right. But it was very smart because it was a sense of something really eye catching, really dramatic and important, coming out as soon as you came in. You talked about foreign policy and, you know, Robin Cook, foreign secretary made a very big speech about an ethical foreign policy.

18:00Now, he gave himself also as a hostages to fortune, but it's signal real change. You know, I said on sky at the weekend, this thing about the government behaving like the opposition, the opposition behaving like the government. As they go into the final year and up to the election campaign, Labour doesn't have to cross every T dot every I. They can signal direction. They can signal change. And I think in these areas, particularly in the areas where it's not all about money. So soft power is not all about money. Foreign policy is not all about money. It's about relationships. It's about diplomacy.

18:30You I know and I agree with you would like the foreign office to get back some proper diplomatic representation in around the world. So that sort of area of politics, how we are as a country culture, that kind of stuff. There's so much there that can be done. Okay, well, we're coming towards an end, but here's a question from undervalued broadcaster. The BBC is now starting its regionalizing cuts to local radio. What do you both think will be the consequence, especially for local democracy? Well, we've talked about this a bit before. I think it's troubling. I think it's very alarming. I think local radio is incredibly important to debate.

19:04I think it's very, very important to the sense of identity that a place has. I get the financial pressures that they're under. But given the way the media landscape is changing so fast, the way local papers are disappearing because the advertising models of the new media are kind of destroying them, I think we get rid of these local radio stations at our peril. And maybe that's something else. Obviously, Chairman of the BBC job up at the moment. John, is that what you're going for that one? That, you know, that could be the one, couldn't it? I think next government also might want to look at the license fee because the terrible cuts to local radio and to the world service have been driven by the government being very, very tight on the license fee.

19:43And I think that local radio and the world service are classic examples of place where the BBC can do things that other commercial stations can't do and aren't doing. Can't do and won't do because, you know, often the commercial gain is not there. No, I think that local radio is incredibly important. But you and I bang on about the world service rightly, I think, but I think local radio is in the same category. My final question, Marie, from Aaron Spence, do you think government and politics should be taught as compulsory in schools? And then he's added brackets, GCSE. I don't think everybody should have to do a GCSE in government and politics.

20:20I actually think we should teach about about politics in primary schools, about how the country works, kings and queens, prime ministers, cabinets, parliaments, how it all works. You know, I think there's a way of doing that that will interest and excite children. And I think the levels of lack of awareness of our political process. And again, this is something I'm keen to talk to the two andes about when we see them for leading is that people don't necessarily know what the government does, what the mayor does, what the local council does, what local government does. And I think it would help them.

20:51In fact, we had better understanding of how a political system works. Simon Praer Aschoreis asked a question related to this. He says bad Tory government comes from low -quality Tory MPs which come from poor selection by out -of -touch local party committees. How does the Tory party get better quality candidates selected? Very good question. Same could apply to Labour. I mean, these parties have a stranglehold on the way that candidates selected. It's very difficult for an ordinary person to come and you can see it in the statistics. Back in the early 80s, there were over a hundred members of parliament who came from blue collar manual labor backgrounds.

21:24Miners, steel workers, my friend Frank Royd, for example, actually, Patrick McLaughlin, who was a Tory MP. And that number has dropped very dramatically and been replaced by party professionals, people who've mostly been working as special advisers or working at central office. And that's because it's very expensive. You've got to move to a new place, you leave your job, fix your mortgage. It's pretty humiliating. It takes years of going around no hope seats. And the party decides who these candidates are going to be. And so the reason I wanted to finish with that question is it loops back to this question of how we teach politics.

21:57One of the things I'm trying to do in the book, and I think you've tried to do in your book, is get into some of the details of this and get away from what I felt happened in schools, which is often when I walk around schools, there are big pitches of Martin Luther King or JFK or Gandhi, these kind of amazing heroic black and white figures. And you don't want to be teaching children. The politics is somehow just about being some superhero. They need to understand the business of it. And I think one of the things I like to an MP is sitting in schools, answering questions and talking about how the thing actually work, dealing with the fact that obviously most children were very surprised that I wasn't in Hungary all the time.