175. Question Time: The Power of Rupert Murdoch

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0:50Welcome to the Restus Politics Question Time with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Mr. Campbell. And first question I think to get us off on is Rupert Murdoch, who claims to have stepped aside. Now of course Murdoch something we think about a lot, you interviewed Brian Cox, a great star of succession, which I think is a pretty fascinating insight. I mean, even if it's slightly off -beam, did you feel succession was a relatively realistic portrayal of the way that Murdoch is family, that empire operated? Well, Brian Cox, the actor, doesn't want anybody to think that it's based on Murdoch, right? And I get that because they want to think they're creating something completely new.

1:28But if you know and you've seen the Murdoch operating, there's a lot in there. There's a lot in there. And actually what's really interesting now, just to throw in one question here from Dave H, what would it take to dislodge the disproportionate influence of the Murdoch press on political reporting? Come on to that. I had lots of sort of interactions with Murdoch and the Murdoch family. And famously, sorry, to be cheeky, famously, one of the big moments was the decision of Tony Blair and you, I think, to fly out to meet Rupert Murdoch before the 97 election. And that was important because the right wing media, particularly the Murdoch control media, had been very important in the defeat of Neil Kinock, the time around.

2:05So getting the Murdoch media at least friendly and on -side was considered to be quite a coup before the 97 election. Yeah, I mean, I've always thought that Murdoch backed us in 1997 because he knew that we were going to win. I don't think we won because Murdoch backed us. And I think you can overdo. I wouldn't understate the influence of media in this, but I think you can overdo it. I think we were going to win. They worked that out. And it was a political risk because lots of people in the low party were very, very angry. And tell us a bit about where is it that you went to meet them? The Haven Island.

2:35Wow. Yeah. And that was like on a boat or on an island. We flew to Sydney. Paul Keating, one of my favourite politicians, put his up at Kiri Billy House, which is the Prime Minister's residence in Sydney. He was, he had some great insights into Murdoch. Yeah, remember he said, he said, he's got to remember about Rupert. His priorities are as follows. Number one, Rupert. Number two, Rupert's business address. Number three, Rupert's political power. Number four, the family. Number five, everything else. So let's go to his view. And 25 years ago, did Murdoch already seem like quite an old man when you met him?

3:14No, he didn't seem old. He seemed pretty grizzled. It was very interesting to watch him at that event. So this was a thing where all the news core predators were gathered together in the same place. And you were beginning a chance to talk to all the editors. And Tony did a sort of speech. But always. So I think I might have told you this story before. So we're having this, we're fluted, certainly. Keating put on an Australian Air Force jet. We flew up with him. He came with us. We arrived at this. Can I just sort of stop on that? I mean, the listeners are getting really questions. It's a fascinating story.

3:50And this is really big news Murdoch stepping aside. I mean, this man has dominated not just the European and Australian, but the American media landscape Fox News. I mean, he's, you know, a lot of the recent Trump came in. But I'm also sort of wondering, in Britain, it would look a bit odd for a Prime Minister using a national Air Force jet to fly out to a meeting with a newspaper. I mean, that really gives you a sense of the smell. No, I think from Keating's perspective, he was the Prime Minister of Australia building relations with Tony Blair, who was widely expected the Prime Minister of the UK.

4:22And he was though, he gave us a lift and he stayed for the whole trip that we were there. We spent lots of time with him. So it does illustrate the power of Murdoch that he was able to get. And also the fact that we decided, despite the political risk and despite lots of people, I mean, there's a piece, there's one of the most tragic passages in my, in my diaries. I mean, you know, I'd love me all kind of to bits, but he did threaten me with a, with a, a boiling kettle. And when he came to sort of, it was a real, much raw, much raw, he just fucking Murdoch, going to see Murdoch. You know, it was a very, very unpopular thing for a lot of people.

4:56I had a tiny example of something in a much more mini scale, which was before I became politician. So we're back in kind of 2008. And when I was teaching at Harvard and doing stuff about Afghanistan, I was invited to a dinner and I sat next to report Murdoch. I mean, when he wants to be, he can be unbelievably charming. The first thing that struck me is very unusually for a very powerful wealthy man. He listened, I mean, generally, powerful wealthy managers on Transminal the time. And he speaks very quietly. He speaks very quietly. He listened very thoughtfully. He gave me some very good advice.

5:30I was trying to hire somebody for a charity. He said, er, we're my advice to you. It's all that matters is that they should be loyal and hardworking. Nothing else matters at all, which actually really clarified things for me. But most frankly, well, the end of the evening, he said, you've been very interesting on Afghanistan. And I'd like to come pick you up tomorrow morning in my car, take you down on the wall, switch down. I'd like you to speak to my editors. So sure enough, next morning, car turns out with Murdoch in it. I get in the car. We drive down to the wall street journal. All the editors have assembled.

5:58He sticks me in the seat. And it was, I thought interesting because I don't know what the political game was. I wasn't a member of parliament. I was just somebody critical of the Afghan war. I think there was a sense that, along with all the other things, he has an instinct for news. And he's sensed that my criticism of the Afghan war was something his editors needed to hear. And he was going to take time out of his diary to move me on the car and bring me. I don't know. I mean, that's the only encounter I have with them. Then when I became politician, I really kept distance from I didn't want to go to his parties.

6:28I didn't want to get too close. I had a huge row with James Murdoch, his son about Afghanistan because it then turned out that his son was very, very pro -Afghan war. And the father was obviously more skeptical. So I ended up with Rebecca Brooks and James Murdoch and this big argument. And that was really the last time I really encountered them. So he's announced that Lachlan, one of his two sons, he's got two sons, two daughters who are going to fight over the spoils as it were. That's the succession bit, which I think is still to play out. Because there's one, Elizabeth's very well known. She was married to Matthew Freud for a while.

6:59She's now married to a very famous artist. And they've all done lots of different things, but Lachlan looks like he's trying to put him in the main pole position. But I can remember once when they came to number 10. And it's true. I mean, when Murdoch came into town, he would pop in and see Tony, he would usually come through the back door. I think partly his request, partly hours. And I remember once we were having a drink up in Tony's flat above number 11. And we started to, we're talking about them at least. And James, who was, as you say, quite strong views on foreign policy, I would say coming at things from a very anti -Israel position.

7:39Murdoch very much pro -Israel. Tony sort of sitting there watching this and watching this. And eventually, James slightly started to lose his temper about the situation, fucking Israelis. And I remember Rupert Murdoch at one point saying, James, you don't talk like that in the Prime Minister's House. Bit of a slapdown. I remember saying to Tony afterwards, that was really interesting, but it was quite, I thought it was interesting that he'd let them go a bit. Anybody who knows Murdoch, it was interesting what people like Andrew Neard and others were saying was that, you know, the idea that he's going to step back, forget it.

8:12But he is 92. I do the other thing, I'm 92. I mean, that's the Syracist H. Yeah. That's 12 years older than Joe Biden. So I think that the other thing I remember from that Heyman Island though, was that, you know, we did see it as quite an opportunity because it wasn't just that, you talk about when you got the Editors together, if you think that, for example, I don't think any of his newspapers around the world, none of them. I don't think any of them quotes were against the Iraq war. Now that means that basically there is a corporate line here. So that's why perhaps we felt important, sort of, keep him on board.

8:51Tony got very irritated with him towards the end because he thought that that editorial support gave him kind of the ability to sort of phone when he wanted to say what he wanted and it doesn't, the truth is it doesn't. But I remember in that Heyman Island thing, it was a very, very interesting insight. When we hadn't even finished the speech by the time we got there, we were still working on it. And I sat down at this, there was this barbeque down by the pool at this fancy hotel in the Heyman Island that had taken over the whole resort. And Murdoch came and sat down next to me and Tony was chatting away to some of the other people who were there.

9:23And I said to Murdoch, we'd put more work into this speech than any other speech for the part of the party conference. I mean, pretty much, moderate bullshit, I would call it. We had put a lot of work into it, but it was like, it was just small talk. Next thing I know, editor of the times and the editor of the sun come and join us. And Rupert says or mumbles, he says, very important speech Tony blames Megan DeWarrer. Oh yeah, they sort of sit up. And then they disappear. And then he come back 20 minutes later and tell us that it's going to be front page lead, they're going to run extra. Gosh, so that little sentence.

10:00That was it. Yeah, so it says extraordinary example of the powerism of the thing. Yeah, well, we should get into this because this is a huge issue in our democracy. It's the power of these companies. I think it is waning. I do think it's waning. I think that, but you're sometimes bit paradoxical about it, aren't you? Sometimes you're like, it's waning. You're so sure to me, it's on the rise. And actually, it wasn't that important, the labor victory. But other times when you irritated, you're like, the fucking right wing media are dominating everything. No, I think that I think where I get irritated is that they can still dominate the agenda.

10:27We had a journalist issue. We got most questions about this week by a mile was why was the no coverage on the television of the the rejoin European Union march? Well, let's let's take let's say question that Lena Pooley, why was there almost no coverage for the rejoin EU march on Saturday? I saw nothing on the BBC or channel few news. Very definitely on the Sunday papers. However, I've watched very good coverage by a French TV session, which asked why are there no British cameras here? So tell us about much. Fierne went on the march. She did. I was at the football. And look, I think even when we're doing the People's Vote campaign, we're getting marches of the million people, it was a struggle sometimes to get them there.

11:01But I think with this one, I think that is where I would say the right way in media influence is. If the papers aren't covering it, the broadcasters decide it's not important. Right. And why is the Guardian the independent not covering it? They might have covered it a bit. I don't know. Look, let's be honest, the issue is not what it was because if you've got neither labor nor the Lib Dems, nor you know, I think the other thing, to be honest, that the people who were speaking at it were the same sort of people who were speaking before. I think there was a very interesting piece that somebody sent me actually from the spectator, where they said that, you know, if there had been people there who said, I voted Brexit and I wish I hadn't.

11:38If there had been people there who said, this is what I'd used to think and now this is what I think. But it was sort of the same voices. But it was a fascinating thing. I was on the way up to the football. And Fierne was texting me at updates. So she's there at this sort of, you know, you're pro -European, rejoin the, give you for geef -a -hoffstats, a very good speaker, etc. Next thing she says, oh my god, there's a band -a -band on the bully dogs, March, are likely at the same time. And then there was something about a protest going on in relation to Pakistan. And she said the band -a -band people, the bully dogs people, there were many of them.

12:13There were pro -bully dogs people. Pro -bully dogs. But then she said, they were walking down the street surrounded by media. Yeah. Because the media decided this is a more exciting story. Yeah. More interesting. Now, having a mayor, Lisa, after listening to a tale of two Andes, I wonder were we wrong in Bristol to vote against having a mayor? I absolutely. Absolutely. I'm very, very sad. And I actually was really impressed by the mayor of Bristol. And I know that she came to have them on the show. And I think we should have more local government, not less. I mean, I think the anti -campaigners are so good about saying, oh, we don't, their line is always, we don't need more politicians.

12:47But what we actually need is better quality local government with more resources closer to people than it will be a huge improvement in our democracy. We got a lot of feedback on the two Andes. Andy Burnham, Mayor of Manchester, Andy Street, Mayor of Messed, Riddlelands. And it was very, very positive. And I think a lot of what they liked about it was the fact that both of them were actually saying they weren't party voices were they? They're Andy's Labour, Andy Burnham Labour, Andy Street to roll. But they weren't saying we're here to sort of par at the party line. They were absolutely about their place.

13:18And I thought I saw Marvin, the Bristol mayor, I thought he was terrific. And it was tragic for me. And that's just part of this sort of, you know, what you say in your book, we haven't bought enough into the idea of devolution. And so no, I completely agree with Lisa. I think we could have more, more mayor's not fewer. Very good. Now here's a bit of a tough one for you. Okay, well, it's tough one for both of us actually. Marion Fallon, you never discuss what is happening to disabled sick people, there are millions of others. I've asked this question many times, I've given up now. And when you know how Rory Stewart voted on policies that are harmless, there's the reason.

13:53So we're about to your voting record. We don't need to go into that. But I think they have got a point. We don't really talk about this very much. And there are millions of disabled people. I'm going to give a shout out to a school I went to last week down in Exmouth in Devon, the Deaf Academy. Apparently the 22 schools for the deaf in the UK, what was interesting, really interesting about this one, the, well, they're not all children, they're from sort of children up to 25, then young adults. And their deaf, but also have often special education needs, physical, mental health, it was a very, very, very inspiring place.

14:29I met with the student council. So all some profoundly deaf, some with literally no hearing at all, others who've had implants that they can hear a bit and some with hearing dogs and it was a wonderful place. Anyway, they're current campaigns. They won the campaign to get a 20 -month -on -hour speed limit outside, they won the campaign for a separate crossing. They're next two campaigns. And the first, and I think we should back them on this, the first campaign is they want to have BSL sign language on all government press conferences. Now they have it in Scotland and Wales. But when number 10 do a press conference, they don't have it.

15:06And the next question, which is related to the question away, they want to have the symbol for disability changed. At the moment, the symbol for disability is a wheelchair. And so what they say that does is it excludes people with invisible disabilities. So I think that's something that if we do do a manifesto or eight, there's two things that we should be right. And let's do that manifesto. And a quick shout out to the Scottish government. So my sister Fiona has Down syndrome. And the Scottish government, who I'm often kicking, has actually done really well by her. I mean, I think there's been fantastic support for her in getting her into work.

15:46I mean, she had a work coach. They initially helped fund the company that employs her. And Fiona gets, I think, real fulfilment out of the time that she spends in work. She goes to work every day. And I think the company that employs her is very good at supporting her. But I also think, I hope they feel they get a lot out of her. So tribute to the Scottish government. Also, my Fiona, who has been to the Apple shop quite a few times recently, and on two occasions, as she's gone in and asked for to see somebody, they've said, do you mind having somebody helping you? Who's deaf? And she said, no, not at all.

16:24And they did it all through an iPad. And these kids down in, in Xmas, they were, when they were talking about what they want to do when they leave, it was just fantastic. One wanted to be a football coach, one wanted to work with dogs, one wanted to work with museum. Now Adam van der Busha, what five rules should starmer put in place to improve governmental transparency, integrity. And in the end, regain trust in our crueltry. So I'm going to start. So rule number one, ministers should serve a minimum of two years, unless there's some completely unprecedented scandal. Number two, they should have a three -week training course before they take over with a proper handover.

17:01Number three, I think, of course, we should change to something more like the New Zealand proportional representation system. I would like to see half the cabinet being appointed people with real professional skills and knowledge of their areas. And then the final thing, as I'd like to see much more radical devolution down to a local level. There's my five. Okay. I agree with most of those. The cabinet thing would be a massive change. And maybe we'll need that. First of all, I would like here to say in the manifesto, our politics is close to being broken. To repair it, we have to have fundamental rethink of how we do politics at every level.

17:37I would love it if he said, during the campaign, I want to put my shadow cabinet on notice that if we become the cabinet, I can tell them now that if any of them ever stand at the dispatch box in the House of Commons and say something that is a lie, they will be sacked. And if they something that is untrue or factually incorrect and they don't correct it immediately, they will also be sacked. I think that would really, really signal to people that he's serious about this. And I think the other thing is, I mean, I do recommend, maybe we should put it, you mentioned Angela Rainer in the in the main podcast.

18:08Maybe we should put this in the in the newsletter. I do think that some of the ideas Angela Rainer is talking about in relation to rebuilding ethics. And the seven Nolan principles, yeah, honestly, openness, objectivity, selfless, integrity, accountability, leadership, I think Labour should persuade Parliament to endorse those for all MPs. Very good. Okay, very, lots of questions to come. Let's just take a quick break.

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19:46Helen Laws, what would your advice be on strategy to have the best chance of getting a PR system of voting in to avoid the toxic polarizations really? Really sorry. So if you were in charge of advising a campaign for changing our electoral system, partial representation, how would you actually think about achieving it? And what is it realistically? Five years, 10 years, 15 years, how would you say about doing it? Well, we talked a little bit about this on the main podcast in relation to New Zealand. I do think that there's always a danger in a campaign where you feel it so strongly yourself that you can't quite understand why others don't.

20:19You have to get new voices. And so I think that I do think that I'm a Democrat on the green, so the most committed to that sort of change, that they should come together and actually start really pressing the Labour Party. Because in the end you can't change it without a government. Absolutely. Yeah. So they should be putting far more pressure on them. And I think doing it by saying that we'll help you get rid of the Tories if very good. Okay. Question for you. Well, I want just this James Russell, Rechris Cabber. Why won't former Attorney General Sir Elder Braverman be held to account for her interventions?

20:52So this is where a police officer has been charged with murder presumably after a pretty thorough process by the Crown Prosecution Service. You and I and nobody else knows more than what we've read what we've seen. And this is where a lot of far amorphous officers have handed back their weapons and protests and solidarity with this police officer. And so on a Braverman put out a statement on social media essentially saying we can't have a situation where policemen go to work without feeling that, you know, thinking they're going to end up in court kind of things. When I was a journalist, you'd have thought, oh, is that not good?

21:25Interesting. So we just talked to Tories Mayabout this in two episodes of leading, which will be on Monday. But one of the things that she was saying is that as home secretary, she was under huge pressure as a conservative to always support the police and she didn't. She's often been very, very critical to the police as home secretary. So on a Braverman obviously made the different choice, which I guess is the kind of Republican American choice, which is to get out of the role. Exactly. I'm always on the side of the police right and wrong. But I think there is a, you know, it was interesting. The solicitor general put out a media advisory note reminding the media and uses a social media, he said, of the law concerning contempt of court.

22:06And I have no idea whether that was in direct response to, well, a Braverman, but I thought it was quite a big deal. Quite a big deal. Yeah. Another one for you, Rory. What did Rory discuss with Humza Yusuf? John in open wants to know. Oh, so Humza Yusuf and I met at the UN Chief Minister of Scotland. First Minister of Scotland at the UN General Assembly and if I'd met him just after I met the president of Malawi and we were discussing Scotland's international development program. Scotland has a small international development program, but it's very, very interesting under Nicholas Sturgeon and now continued under Humza Yusuf.