184. Question Time: Why Britain Needs Shorter Prison Sentences

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1:36Welcome to the rest of this politics question time with me, Rory Stewart and me, Alistair Campbell. Now, Rory, have they been listening? Redg girl wants to know, has Rory been giving advice to Alex Chalk about prisons? How have we reached such an appalling situation? Rishi Sunak is Chancellor, had known about prisons running out of capacity and yet chose to fund, eat out to spread it about instead. Nick Hudgehor, why is it so difficult to build new prison spaces and why have we run out of space? Now, this is a story about judges apparently being told, go easy on the prison sentences and other prisoners being let out early because frankly our prisons are full.

2:20Yeah, well, it's not just a story about that. It's a story about something that I'm really proud that Alex Chalk is doing. So when I was the minister for prisons and sentencing, under David Gork, we worked together to abolish short sentences. So short sentences and prison sets people going into prison for six months sentences or 12 months sentences are absolutely terrible in every way. In Durham prison, the average length of stay when I was a prison was something like eight days. I met a man of Bedford prison who'd been in prison nine times in a year and these short sentences are just enough to reculele.

2:59So you lose your rent, you lose your job if you've got one. But of course they're not long enough to do any useful work in terms of educational rehabilitation and short sentence prisons drive a lot of the violence in prisons. They have very high suicide rates and they contribute of course to the overcrowding nearly 50 % of prisoners in at any one time. Certainly when I was in in some of these prisons were short sentence prisoners. And I think the final things are I keep adding final things is that we had very good evidence that short sentence prisoners are more likely to reoffend than if they didn't go to prison at all.

3:35So randomised control tests were on this like a medical trial where you study carefully with academic partners over time, a random collection of the population. So random collection with the same offenses who were not sent to prison given community sentences and a random section of worst sentence prison. Those that were sent to prison were more likely to reoffend. In other words, these short sentence prisoners were increasing danger to the public. So cut to the chase, David Gaul can I try to bring this through? We were defeated basically because Boris Johnson came in with this populist government and hated the idea of going soft on crime.

4:06And to my delight, Alex Chalk who I keep saying and I really believe is one of the good guys in the government has now come and said that he will now look again at reintroducing that legislation, which was one of the few things that I was really proud to be able to try to get through when I said government. Yeah, although you and David Gaul did it because that is your belief about how to change our approach to prisons in the criminal justice system more generally, they have been driven to this because of the catastrophic state of our prisons, which are full. And this is something which you asked Rishi Sunak to do at one point.

4:43I remember you telling about when you went to say can we stop sending people to prison for not paying their TV license or the council tax and so forth. And he was very opposed to that. And this now is driven by necessity rather than out of any sort of strategic approach. And there's still it seems to me no plan for how we redevelop the prison estate in a way that makes us even think that it might become something that can be part of re -ability process. Yeah, well, it is our prisons are absolutely shocking, really shocking. And a lot of this is about politics. I mean, sadly, the instincts the conservative party under Boris Johnson were very much about longer sentences locking up more people.

5:28And unfortunately, the instincts of Kierstammer, which really surprised me because he was director of public prosecution. So, you know, he knows this stuff well. So I was expecting him to be more liberal on this stuff. He's gone even further, you know, he's put out, as you remember, media campaigns saying that he would propose to lock up even more people committed of convicted offenses than Rishi Sunak. So I think this is a real problem where both these parties have dug themselves into promising to lock up more and more people. And the truth is that we simply don't have the places for them. If you look at the graph and we'll share it on the on our newsletter.

6:01But when David Goldcani were in, we were beginning to bring the prison population down. It's now begun to rise very steeply. And the rhetoric that Labour's putting in of locking up even more people will make it rise even more steeply. And there is no way that the building of prisons can keep up with this. And it costs it costs a lot of money. I mean, one of these new prisons was maybe 1500 people in it, a new super prison costs you nearly 2 billion pounds to build. But we're talking about the numbers projected to be 20 ,000 people more than we currently have. Pretty soon. You mentioned the main podcast in relation to New Zealand that one of the reasons that Labour perhaps did even worse than they expected to was because of the perception that they were they were soft on crimes.

6:46You can see politically why Labour might be doing this. But I completely agree with you that we have got to have a fundamental reappraisal of who and why we are sending to to prisons. Now, Rory, talking of going to prison. Yes. COVID inquiry. Quinti sense hall wants to know, will Johnson and Sunat face charges for their lack of cooperation with the COVID inquiry? Might Webster wants to know, why is the BBC and others not giving more air time to the shocking revelations in the COVID inquiry? I mean, I'm fascinated by this. When obviously when COVID was the dominant issue in our lives, these characters, you know, Dominic Cummings, Boris Johnson, Matt Hunkock, they were never sort of out of our lives.

7:31The COVID inquiry, which you really have to go, you have to go look on their website to find out what's going on because there's so little media coverage of it. But what is emerging is, if anything, even worse than we thought at the time. Oh, it's shocking. And one of the, and it's something that, you know, I was right at the heart of I was in the sort of very odd position of finding myself and peers Morgan, campaigning hard against Boris Johnson to try to take COVID syracia in the early days. And the culture that comes across particularly from these WhatsApp messages, I mean, there's been revelations that we've complained about the way in which the Cabinet Secretary Simon case has been behaving.

8:10But the WhatsApp messages are absolutely unbelievable. We can see the permanent secretary sitting down. This is the head of the Permit Civil Service. So and I keep saying we should be interviewing more ex -securities the Cabinet on this program because I think they are extraordinary people. And these, you know, these are the classic yes prime minister figures. Well, Gussau Donald, former Cabinet Secretary and former colleague of mine. And he was his evidence was compelling. But I saw nothing on the media about it. He was talking about the impact on the civil service of having politicians that you felt unable to respect or trust.

8:49But then you see the current Cabinet Secretary Simon case just part of the gang basically. Well, it's very, very odd. So what's happening to WhatsApp messages? And they're worth looking at if you want to see the way that you know, I've been criticized in politics on the edge for some time sounding a bit gloomy and about the way that politics works. But you look at these WhatsApp messages. I couldn't make it up. It's worse than anything I've described in that book. So this is him 14th October 2020. This is the kind of Sahump free figure who's meant to be the dignified head of our entire civil service.

9:20Writing to the head of communications. I'm not sure I can cope with today. Might just go home. Matt Hancock just called having spoken to the PM according to Matt brackets. So aim off obvs. PM has asked Matt to work out regional circuit breakers for the North and to bring recommendations. I'm going to scream. Now this is the Cabinet Secretary talking about the Prime Minister and the Health Secretary. I mean, you can't really imagine, I don't know, suburb trend sending that kind of WhatsApp message. Well, I can't if I think of all of the cabinet saying, so we had Richard, we had Robin Butler, Richard Wilson, Turnbull, Gussau Donald as I mentioned.

10:04I can't imagine any of them talking like that. But this all comes from the top. This is the fact that we had in Downey Street, Johnson, Cavalier, District Guard for Fact, District Guard for detail. And the other messages that are even worse in a way are those from Dominic Cummings. I don't know if you've got the word in front of you or I don't. But some of his, I mean, the contempt that he has for the person who pointed him to the job and to the ministers who are meant to be running the show is mind blowing. It is way worse than we thought at the time. It's absolutely unbelievable. Isn't it because there is a democratic point here.

10:40I mean, whatever you think of these people, they are the sexually sustained Prime Minister. They've been elected. They're meant to be a running a government. And as you say, I mean, you know, you had run in with Richard Wilson and you said he wasn't Jonathan Powell's favours person. I'm a real fan of his. He's a really old -fashioned, dignified, serious cabinet secretary. But just to continue for a second while I'm on my rant, Cain writes back saying, WTF are we talking about? Well, the fact that that means, yeah. Yeah, they're clearly in a meeting, right? They're in a serious meeting, presumably with the Prime Minister and these cabinet ministers, texting to each other under the table.

11:13WTF are we talking about case replies, whatever Carrie cares about, I guess, so that's Carrie Boris Johnson's wife. Case then writes, I was always told that Dominic Cummings was a secret PM. How wrong they are. I look forward to telling the select committee tomorrow, oh, fuck no, don't worry about Dom, the real person in charge is Carrie. And then case concludes, this is a cabinet secretary again. The government doesn't have the credibility needed to be imposing stuff with their only days they're deciding not to. We look like a terrible tragic joke. I cannot cope with this. But Roy is horrific and they, he said he talks about the select committee quite soon.

11:50He and Cummings and Johnson and Hancock and soon they're all going to be the COVID inquiry. But why is our media just sort of not covering this stuff? I don't understand it. I mean, obviously I've seen this through the media, but it's not big news, is it? I mean, it's not been big news. Most of our listeners will probably be hearing this for the first time. It's strange. It's not being big news. It's strange. And I was really, I mean, actually, I'm hoping they might ask me to test five COVID inquiry because I had a very weird moment because I came out very early. Saying that we needed to look at what was happening in Italy and locked down earlier.

12:24I found myself under extraordinary attack from Downey Street during that period. Real kind of get into light and senior people effectively trying to bribe me, ringing me out on a Sunday morning saying, Rory, you know, it was a job we think you might be interested in doing and sort of sight hints that you know, maybe I could get some kind of honor if I shut up and stop complaining. But you're like me Roy, you don't believe in the unassistant deer. Well, I definitely believe in the unassistant that I believe even more in my own peculiar sense of honor. But anyway, listen, you should, you should write the inquiry.

12:56Yeah. Yeah, I will. My sense of the inquiry is that they're being very thorough, but it must be weird that there sort of, it seems to be day after day, there is stuff emerging that I think in a normal, healthy political culture, which isn't now just sort of treating the current, you know, lot as the people that they have to cover day after day after day. That is the stuff we forget. We sort of live in the moment and then we forget the importance of learning lessons of the past. We talk about learning lessons from these inquiries. I think you be not even covering them. They're obviously going to cover it massively when Johnson goes and Sue Nack may be hanged or maybe Cummings.

13:35But you know, this stuff, I think, I sort of read that and I thought these people can never be allowed in power again. I'm afraid it's a crucial thing to say, but I'm afraid that a cabinet secretary who is exposed for saying those kind of things should go. You cannot continue to serve as a cabinet secretary if you've made that clear, your contempt for the Prime Minister you're supposed to be working for, your contempt for the health secretary, your total lack of seriousness in central meetings. I'm afraid it's it's just not good enough. And I believe Simon Kess is meant to be a nice guy. I didn't know him, but it's not good enough and he has to go.

14:16Well, I'm pretty sure that if there's a labor government, they're going to have to make quite a lot of changes because clearly that is a system that is not working. And it goes about to the point about being at the top. Johnson at the machine. And that stuff spreads. So if the fact that he's talking to special advisors like that, that spreads around the system. And it's just very, very corrosive. Yeah, no, it's interesting. Look, here's a question there just to give you something to get your teeth into. James with us. Based on Alistair's experience of the Northern Ireland peace process, does he see any of the same ingredients in place to forge peace in the Israel Palestine conflict or are the prospects universally bleak?

15:00Well, this is something we talked to the ambassador about. And I said that I just couldn't see how you could even begin to get a peace process going at the moment. But he actually, to be fair to him, was saying you always have to have hope. I agree with that. He was also saying that the principles, the outlines of it are there in the Oslo Accords and some of the agreements have followed from that. I think at this stage, I said to him, if he was suddenly put in charge of the Palestinian negotiations, who does he negotiate with? How do you even get this thing off the ground? Do I see any of the same ingredients in place?

15:39Well, one is the engage the current engagement of the United States and the international community. You made the point on the on the main podcast that you felt that America attained its eye off the ball, but the current state of engagement is definitely an ingredient. Bizarrely, the state of the crisis has the potential to be an ingredient. But ultimately, the ingredient that I don't see there at the moment is the capacity on either side for people to be able to say this is gone too far. We have to reengage in a particular process. Now, I think that can come. So that's why the prospects are not universally bleak, but they do feel pretty bleak at the moment.

16:24Okay, we'll read lots more questions to come. Let's take a quick break.

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18:42Here's another one for you, which I guess is sort of pitting your emotional feelings against your kind of political judgment. So Ian Fraser, polls are showing a consistent majority. He thinks Brexit is a mistake and would support joining the EU. Should the Lib Dems, and I might add to this, should Labour make joining the Single Market and Manifesto commitment? And what's your political judgment or whether that would be a smart thing for Lib Dems to do or maybe even for Labour to do? Well, I think both of them are behind the curve on this with the public. And I think have been for some time. When we talk to Ed Davie on leading, I completely get that he is focused on quite a lot of the so -called blue wall seats, where he's in competition with the Conservatives.

19:26And therefore he doesn't want to make a big deal of Brexit because a lot of people voted for it. And likewise with Labour, they want to win back a lot of people who drifted over the Johnson, drifted over to Brexit and threw that voter for the Tory party. But I just think now the scale of damage being done, we're seeing it in all sorts of different ways day after day after day after day, large and small. And the shift in the published opinion polls about whether people think it's been a success, it's nearly virtually university in our scene as something that's gone wrong, something that has to be fixed.

20:04So I would like to see both Labour and the Liberal Democrats make far more noise about what's going wrong and a far bigger commitment to some of the options that have to be there to start to put it right. And for the Lib Dems in particular, I don't understand why they, I think they're missing a trick in doing that. I really do. I really don't understand it because their voters in particular, and I know that you get a lot far more voters than they currently have. But the sort of people who are minded, I think in those so -called blue wall seats to shift from Tory to Lib Dem are people who are not, they're not the fascists, they're not the ideologues, they're not the people who are going to sort of march to the drum of Liszt Trust and Swella Bravaman and Nigel Farage.

20:48So I think, I just think they're locked into a way of thinking that the public has already moved through. Yeah. And I'm kind of, I mean, I did think the same. I got actually, I was surprisingly, I've got more attack for the way that I interviewed Ed Davies and almost anything else I've done. People said, you know, why was Rory so mean to Ed Davie? He seemed, you know, he wasn't disagreeing agreeably. But I guess what I was trying to get at there is that although he came across, so Ed David leader of Lib Dems and our leading interviewed came across as a very sympathetic person, his personal stories impressive.

21:19I did not think, given how long he's been the leader of the Lib Dems, that he really had a clear answer to why people should be voting for them. And I might instinct is you're right, they need to lean in to the EU as soon as that's going to be their distinctive point. Labour's not going to do it. So why not at least say we'll go back into the customs union? Yeah. And also, you know, as ever, it is always easier for the Lib Dems to make big promises that get, they don't get attacked as much by the other parties. And nobody thinks that they're going to be the government. But I think in terms of being seen to lead in the moving of the dial on this debate is actually for them a good thing to do.

22:01Now Tom Gorman, yeah, Birmingham is the latest of seven councils, some blue, some red, in the last three years to issue a section 114 notice declaring unsustainable financial problems. Is there a systemic problem with local government? Well, there's a systemic problem with how much money local government has lost in recent years. I was talking to somebody the other day who works in special educational leads who said that if our councils were to meet, if all our councils were to meet what they know is required to deal properly with the crisis and special educational leads at the moment that virtually every council in the country will go bankrupt.

22:44And actually was suggesting that if a Labour government comes in, they may have to write off an awful lot of that. Yeah, I mean, but basically there are two things here as and the first thing is that the country is much poorer than people acknowledge. And that we don't have the money. And this is partly because the demographics party about the fact that our NHS gets more and more expensive as our population gets older and older. I've seen older people cost more in terms of healthcare. So that's one problem. I think the second problem is, and it's a big problem for someone like me who really believes in devolution decentralization, getting power out of Westminster and down to the local bodies is that these councils are not always managing responsibly.

23:22Councilors are not full -time. They're often part -time people, they're often retired people. And there's a real problem. We have to take the risk. We have to say that they should raise their own revenue. They should be able to do their own taxing rather than getting handouts from the central government because so long as they're getting handouts to central government, they can borrow money. Remember, some of these councils went big on borrowing from Icelandic banks in 2008. Really? Yeah. So they can borrow money. And in the end, they know that the central government has to bail them out, which is not a very good setup.

23:52It's a bit like your teenage child maxing out your credit card, maxing out their credit card, knowing that the parents are going to step in. So really good local government will mean giving them tax -racing powers, but it will also mean saying they have to have some sort of consequences rather than just expecting the central government to bail them out when they borrow too much. Now, a couple on Scotland, Ian Gurling, has the SMP run its course for Scottish independence. And Steph Powell should there be automatic bi -elections when MPs switch parties. This is the SMP MP who has switched, who has defected to the Tories, which I don't know whether that helps the Tories or hinders them, I don't know.