218. Could the Democrats replace Joe Biden? What’s next for Imran Khan? Why are young people deserting British conservatism?

24:53I don't know whether she's the biggest, but she's one of the biggest sort of musicians on the planet. She's got a massive following, very, very loyal following the core Swifties, Rory. And the Republic, because she is pro -Biden, the Republicans have decided to go for her. She has this relationship. Her boyfriend is this guy, Travis Kelsey, who plays for the Kansas City Chiefs who won. And it was in the May, I'm not big enough. That's right. And you told us, you told us last week that the theory from the Republicans is it was all going to be rigged so that he could win. Correct. And adding fuel to that theory is the fact that they got a kick.

25:30They scored like with seconds to go in the game. So it went into what's called overtime and they won in overtime. So incredibly kind of dramatic win. Cameras all around Taylor Swift the whole time, and then the sort of big hugging and kissing with the boyfriend. Since when Trump has come out himself attacking Taylor Swift, because he says that the changes that he made to music legislation when he was president is what's made her rich and famous. I mean, as you know, nothing can happen. So I think we should, I've become a huge fan of Taylor Swift just for the fact that she so clearly gets under the skin of Trump and all his supporters.

26:10Very good. Okay. Now the final final thing you brought to our attention before we go to the break is the fact that the UK is an outlier in the number of younger people who are voting a laborer and against the conservatives. Now that that wouldn't normally be surprising. I mean, normally we expect younger people to be more left wing, but actually in many countries, as you've pointed out, strangely younger people, and particularly young men are often actually quite conservative and are voting for populist, right wing parties. But in the UK, that doesn't seem to be true over to you on some of the reasons why that might not be true in the UK.

26:43Well, it's not about the reasons, but this guy John Bern Murgh who people don't follow him, they should because he's very good at sort of drilling down on data. And essentially what it's showing is that I think it's fair to say that the young are pretty much giving up on the conservatives. Whereas in other countries, as you say, there is still this sort of propensity to believe that, well, maybe conservatism, strong leadership, all the sort of patriotic stuff that the right tries to take for itself. Do you think there's also possibly an encompassing thing, which is that young people often around the world are pretty angry about their economic prospects, pretty angry about the way the world's going.

27:21So if you've got a left wing government in, they will gravitate towards the right. And if you've got a right wing government in, they'll gravitate against. Yeah, possibly, but the thing that's happening here, if you look at the numbers and the graphs, the thing that really seems to be driving this is the fact that the young generation in our country, and there's plenty of evidence why they should feel this, feel that there's been a kind of effective breakdown of upward social mobility. And a lot of that measured in housing and the difficulties young people are finding to get on the, on the housing ladder, or to get any housing at all other than with their, with their parents.

27:58So, for example, the share of 25 to 34 -year -olds who own their own home in the US is 6 percentage points lower than it was in 1990. In Germany, it's 8 points lower. In France, it's 3 points lower. In Britain, it's 22 points lower. That's a huge drop in people who feel that they cannot get into a situation where, where they can get their own home. And bear in mind, one of the big things of conservative leadership, I think the last five prime ministers have all promised that this kind of thing of people getting their first foot of the house in that was a big thing. And it's just not happening.

28:37Yeah. And they think the other thing that you brought to my touch at Articles is the percentage of young people thinking that hard work is going to bring rewards is much lower in Britain. It's now 39 % in Britain compared to 49 % in Germany, 60 % of the US. And that's interesting because actually, if you go back to 2012, this statistic on whether hard work would bring rewards actually had the UK quite high. I mean, the US has always been much higher, partly because Americans are astonishingly optimistic often against all the evidence on these kinds of things. But it has dropped dramatically in the UK.

29:11Actually, these things are dropping all around the world, which is one of the things that's fueling, I think, far -right populism. But it's more dramatic the drops in the UK than elsewhere. The other factor that does come up is Brexit before the referendum, the share of 18 to 34 -year -olds in Britain who said they strongly dislike the conservative party, was at around 20 % and it's more than doubled since then. And I do think Brexit is a big part of that. Very good. Okay. So there we are on young people loathing the Tory party. Let's take a break. Thank you. Let's have a break on that subject.

29:44Thank you.

29:50This isn't ad from BetterHelp. At the moment, we're getting advice from everywhere. You just have to go on TikTok. Could be Alice's cold plunges. Could be my attempts to meditate or the digital detox that I'm doing in Colombia. But of course, one of the things that we know is that it can be incredibly valuable to talk to another human being, somebody who's actually been trained as the therapist to work through these ideas calmly, objectively and professionally. And as the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a very diverse variety of expertise.

30:26They've got over 5 ,000 therapists in the UK. They've helped more than 5 million people globally and you can join a session literally at the click of a button. Change therapists anytime. It's obviously not about fixing you, but it's about hearing yourself clearly, maybe for the first time. So talk it out with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10 % off their first month at betterhelp .com slash rest politics. That's better H -E -L -P .com slash rest politics. Let's play Burlington's Guess That Price. Back to school means back to saving. We're bringing you kids jeans starting at a hold on a minute, just 1199.

31:03Burlington's aching this test. What about character backpacks? We've got them starting at 1299. Burlington's done it again. How about sneakers for the kids? A plus brands and right on trends starting at 1199. Saving is now in session. Burlington deals brands wow. Stalls and selections vary by location. Put us in a box. Go ahead. That just gives us something to break out of because the next generation 2025 GMC terrain elevation is raising the standard of what comes standard.

31:45As far as to challenge, we challenge completely. We are professional grade. Visit GMC .com to learn more.

31:59Welcome back to the rest of politics with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alex Campbell. And Alex, thank you at the beginning for calling out our Robert's Supposed Skin to Fue on Leading, which just remind people who haven't got this yet. We've got a separate stream called Leading, which has these amazing interviews, which I think almost one of things we're most proud of, where we've had everybody from Bill Gates to Arnold Schwarzenegger to in this case, Robert Supposed Skin, who isn't as famous as either of those. He is an expert on the human brain and primates brains and spent years sitting in the Kenyan desert studying baboons.

32:32What did you make of Supposed Skin? I thought it was brilliant. I'm in France at the moment. If you're in I were driving down through France listening to it. And you know, I don't know about you. When I'm doing these interviews, I'm so sort of focused on doing the interviews and the next question thinking what that was being said. When I get out of them, I sort of forget them. So it was almost like listening to it again. And Fiona had been saying to me, when I said we're doing this guy called Robert's Supposed Skin, who's he always a famous scientist. What on earth are you talking to famous scientists about the nobody's heard of kind of thing?

32:59But she said it was and I created. She said it. She thought it was one of the most interesting we've done. I got messages from people as Brendan Foster, the great athlete sent me a message saying he thought this is one of our best. Sphana Gisler, who is the founder of the Abbotars. This is Abba. She sent me a message saying, God, this was amazing. We got loads of good feedback. Well, I'm so pleased. Well, maybe we should occasionally, I mean, not all the time, but occasionally branch out and do more people that we think are kind of interesting, provocative thinkers, as well as kind of leading politicians.

33:34Yeah, because I also thought the thing about, you know, we, you and I talk a lot privately about the whole kind of thing of mental health and and politics. I thought it was very, very interesting on the psychology of politics. And I just love the idea of him sitting there looking at baboons hitting each other on the arse and relating that to how Donald Trump behaves in public life. Now, I really recommend people listen to Robert Spoltsky. It was great. And do check out the pictures of him as well. He's a very interesting looking guy too. Very good. Well, Pakistan. Pakistan, yep. So quick introduction to Pakistan.

34:08Pakistan obviously the country that formed after partition from India around an Islamic identity ruled by a military government for many, many years from the forties, but settled into basically a two -party system. It's got an election system like the UK first passed the post and its two -party system pitted the PPP, which people will remember because it's connected with Benazir Bhutto who was tragically assassinated, but will be very well known maybe to many internationalists. And the government that was in power most recently, the Muslim League run by a man called Nahuascharif, whose prime minister and is being prime minister in the past.

34:45These two parties basically dominated Pakistani politics and they had two very different electoral bases. So the Muslim League had a big base in the Punjab and the PPP had a big base in Sindh, they're around Karachi. Until an incumbent emerged and incumbent was Imran Khan. An Imran Khan set about from the 1990s onwards trying to launch a third party that was going to break through. And Imran Khan, as you've pointed out on the podcast before, has been literally the most famous person in Pakistan since he was about 18 years old. Great Pakistani cricket champion, amazing, charismatic, very good -looking figure, famous for his social life, and it's very difficult to think of a UK or US equivalent to somebody quite so central to the culture and famous.

35:34But even with all of that, of course, he really struggled to break through in a two -party system. So when he first ran, got almost no seats, next time he ran, I think he got one seat. And I remember in the past when I used to spend a lot of time in Pakistan, so end of the 1930s, early 2000s, everyone would just sort of laugh at the idea that Imran Khan could ever break through. And then he did. He broke through. He became Prime Minister, took over the country and was then toppled essentially by a no -confidence vote in Parliament. So it's getting a similar system to the UK in that way. He was taken down and then he was charged with a number of criminal charges and is currently in prison.

36:14And in this situation, an election was held with Imran Khan in prison and an astonishing upset because Imran Khan's party got more seats than anyone else and they would claim would have swept an incredible overwhelming majority if it had not been for amazing election interference. We should say, as you say, Imran Khan's party, in fact, they all stood effectively as independence because a large section of the Pakistani population don't read or write and symbols, elections become incredibly important. And the PTI in Imran Khan's party, the symbol, unsurprisingly, has been a cricket bat. And they were banned from using the cricket bat.

36:58All sorts of sort of attempts to stop them running, all sorts of accusations of pre -pol vote rigging. And yet, as you say, those candidates who support Imran Khan and his party, the PTI, they have won 93 seats. Now, as Sharif has come second and he has the backing, he's thought to have the backing of the army, which is incredibly powerful in Pakistan. He's got 75 seats. And then the PPP, led by Bouteau's son, Billewel Bouteau Zadari, they came in third with 54 seats and are now sort of trying to play a bit of a Kingmaker role. And although, as you say, the system is similar in many respects to the UK.

37:42One of the big differences is that they have 336 seats. 266 are decided by the voting that we've had. And then 70 are reserved. 64 women, 10 for non -Muslims. And these are given now, according to the votes that the parties got. But of course, in what's going on now, the coalition sort of discussions, they are not being given to Imran Khan's party because these were all standing as independence. Because it's not formally a party. Yeah. You mentioned the military, and I think that's the big difference. We've talked a lot about Bangladesh recently and we'll be talking about Indonesia. But of these three enormous Asian Muslim countries that are having elections this year, the big difference with Pakistan is the military.

38:29And it's one of these countries, Egypt's another example. Turkey was, until we see another example, where the military is almost everything. The military has a huge share of the economy. So when you retire as a general, you get to take over some military company. They get incredible preferences in the economy. They're immune from strikes. And their position is Bizarre. Remember talking to a Pakistani friend who went into the parliament and went to see the chief web and discovered a full kernel sitting in the chief office, basically telling the web what to do. Again, Asma Jahangir, who's an amazing human rights leader in Pakistan, her daughter has a big TV program in which she criticises the military, but an army major literally sits in the studio.

39:14And every time she's critical of the military, he presses a button and cuts her out. So if you watch the TV show, it's just sort of me, and then she talks to another student being together. So the military is the key. And the story of Emron Khan's rise to power is of course a bit more complicated because you could present him as this sort of plucky democratic outsider. But the reason he got into power is that in those days, the military was behind him. So the military were fed up with the Muslim League, fed up with the PPP and put their weight behind Emron Khan. And they vote rigged and stuffed in his favor last time round and got him into power.

39:50And he now says they got him out. And they now definitely did get him out. And why did they get him out? They got him out because when he was in power and took a lot of their tips, he then turned against them and began railing against the military and tried to do what Erdogan successfully did in Turkey. But Emron Khan was less smart about it. Erdogan in Turkey spent nearly 10 years working out how to undermine the Turkish military. There was then a coup d 'etat attempt against him, which he used very scoffally to shut down finally almost all the military opposition to him and create a secular state.

40:26And that's what I think Emron Khan was hoping to do. He was hoping to be the person who led Pakistan out of military rule. And when he was taken down by this corruption charges, the were attempts by his supporters to storm military checkpoints. They got into a military barracks. And all that of course has terrified the military even more. So they're even more determined to make sure that he remains. Absolutely. This thing about the Tony Blair. We went to Pakistan a few times and Musharraf was in charge. And of course he military background. And yet, I can remember that you always had a feeling of the guys who were as it were current military.

41:07You really had a sense that even if those times where they say, let's just go and have a chat head to head just the two of us and Tony Blair and Musharraf would go and have a little chat. But you sort of had a feeling that the ones that were left outside the room, the military guys, actually were just as powerful, if not more powerful. And the head of the army, as in Munir, he and Emron Khan now are, I think it's fair to say, pretty sworn enemies. But what will really be worrying the army? Because what happened has to happen now. They have a few weeks to be able to put a government together. Very hard to see how this is going to happen because the various coalitions that are possible.

41:42You could have Sharif's party, PMLN joining with Bouto. But then there's the need a few other parties for that. You could have Bouto joining up with the independence. But I think that then the question goes, who's the prime minister? Who's going to actually take the lead in that? It's not a tall obvious how this is going to pan out. So actually it could be that at some point the army say, well, that we're mid this chaos, we are actually going to have to impose ourselves. And I think the most likely scenario is that you end up with now a Sharif taking over again with a PPP coalition because Emron Khan says he's not going into coalition with anyone else, that bunch of independence won't go.

42:22Some of those independence are already being picked off. Some of them arrived, some of them literally put in jail until they declare for the Muslim leaks. So he's losing some of his independence. And as you say, the army is now such sworn enemies of Emron Khan, they're not going to accept the idea of Emron Khan becoming the next prime minister or getting out of jail anytime soon. It's also a sign. I mean, we've talked a lot about the way in which in many countries court cases in the situation in the US to are used against political opponents to rule them out of the presidency. And of course, the background story around that is that these countries have incredible challenges around corruption.

43:01I mean, corruption in Pakistan permeates deeply, the Muslim League permeates deeply the PPP. And although Emron Khan himself may not personally be corrupt, he probably isn't personally corrupt. Boy, did he have a lot of corrupt ministers? And it certainly seems as though Bushrabebe who's his new wife. I mean, so you remember Emron Khan was married to to Jameima Goldsmith, this sort of very prominent British, I don't know how we describe Jameira. She's very interesting, but she's very interested in foreign policy. She's very interested in many things, but she was famous initially for coming from a very wealthy British family.

43:37And he's now married to a woman who is his sort of spiritual guru. And she told him before the election that he wouldn't win the election unless he married her, which he did. And she wears a fauna cap. And he's very superstitious. He believes a lot in suit sets. She's associated with a very famous shrine in Pakistan. And these Sufi shrines are incredibly important in Pakistani culture. These are people who brought Islam to that part of India in the early middle ages and who continue to have these kind of amazing magical powers. And Emron Khan's very into that. So he's been put in jail around allegations, some of which are very trivial compared to the kind of stuff that other Pakistani political leaders have been done for to do with a bottle of olive oil is one of these cases, whereas previously there's been in trouble for much, much bigger gifts.

44:27I think it was the allegation particularly that he went to Saudi and a Mohammed bin Salman gave him a series of gifts which were then pawned instead of being properly declared. But essentially what we have repeatedly in Pakistan is that your opponents get put in jail for corruption. And then if the army wants to bring you back again miraculously, the judges then suddenly declare that there isn't enough evidence and you went on a heel and you lose all your cases. Sort of nice little bridge to the election in Indonesia which is absolutely fascinating is AI. Emron Khan has been speaking from jail as it were by his supporters releasing these AI videos and sound of him speaking.

45:12So he's obviously not, he's not, he's in jail and he's not allowed to put stuff out. Just on that because it's such a big theme that we keep talking about coming into this here of elections. Also really interesting is huge support for Emron Khan in the UK and the US. You know, many people will will have picked that up in the UK talking to Paxani friends. He's got a huge aspect of support and they invested very heavily in tech and AI. So one of the reasons they pulled off this miracle of effectively his party even if they were independence getting so many votes is that you could ring up a hotline and this AI would tell you exactly who to vote for with which symbol in Emron Khan's voice in whichever seat you were in.

45:50And the military seems to have massively underestimated this and the military itself seems to be also splitting the stories that actually there were junior army officers stuffing the ballot boxes in favor of Emron Khan in Hybert Parkton while at the so -and -the -northwest frontier while other parts of the army was stuffing ballots against him in Punjab and Sindh and final thing if I wanted to be Dr. Gleum I think there is a significant chance now of a revolutionary moment in Pakistan. I think the military has massively miscalculated. I think this has shown that the military's split. There will be a lot of very angry people who felt that Emron Khan won a massive majority was cheated off it by military interference.

46:32This new government will lack legitimacy and I think this is probably one of the most risky moments Pakistan has faced in decades. And I guess the thing he has done which no leader previously has even really tried to do is to sort of break that sense of the military being the the most powerful institution in the country. Now he's in jail so you could say well they won but from jail he's managed to produce this pretty remarkable result. When we were talking about Pakistan a few weeks ago we were sort of pretty much pretty clear that now I sure if was going to be prime minister well it's not totally clear right now.

47:07And it's I think the final thing there is that his time in office was pretty disastrous. So yeah, and he called him as a mess. He's a total mess. Yeah, you know he's not an amazing pin -up for liberal democracy. He had corrupt ministers. He was pretty authoritarian. He was shutting down the media in the press when the generals told him to. So one of the clichés about Pakistan is that if he'd completed his term in office he probably wouldn't be reelected but by toppling him the military has guaranteed this amazing electoral turnout. Now Indonesia third largest democracy in the world largest Muslim majority nation and they are going on Valentine's Day to elect new president, vice president, parliament, local bodies and it's absolutely extraordinary.

47:53This is a country you know better than I do but it's 70s made up of 17 ,000 islands over spaces, largest the USA. 204 million people are going to vote. Young people make up more than half of them that young is beige between 17 and 40. You can vote at this 17. And the story we told a few weeks ago about how there's often a sort of a big shift against incumbents. Well of course in this case the incumbent, the two term president known as Jikowi, Jokouido, he can't stand. The guy who has gone from being second even third favorite to now looking like he could even win on the first ballot the first round is this guy, Prabowo Subianto who's the current defense minister but he is somebody who's I think this is his third attempt to go for the presidency.

48:42He's tried before to go for the vice presidency and he's done something he talk about a sort of smart tactic. We've talked before about the importance of running mates and I always think running mates in America are overestimated but in this case what he's done is he's taken as he's running mate the son of the outgoing president who is very very popular. The son is 36. You can't run for vice president or president unless you're 40. So how has this happened? Well his uncle happens to be running the court that decided to made this new rule that provided you already had a position of political power you could run under 40 and the two of them together have actually moved the aisle now sufficient for people to be saying that this guy looks like he's nailed off.

49:29It's again really really worrying. So Indonesia I was a British diplomat in Indonesia for two years when Indonesia became a democracy. Just on that. So this place is 17 ,000 islands and you're working for the British government now there. How do you even begin to sort of manage the coverage of a place like that? How do you even find out what's going on? It's completely amazing. I mean we had a great ambassador who said to people like me I was the second century economic and so I had a colleague sex such a political that he wanted us to get out to every province in the country but it was an amazing challenge and these places are incredibly different.

50:10So Nebale is Hindu in culture, other parts are Christian in culture, other parts are animus that includes southern Borneo, it includes enormous places like Sulawesi, it includes West Papua, which is Papua New Guinea. So it was a creation after the collapse of the Dutch East Indies, the sort of colonial collection of islands. Sukano who was this charismatic independence leader created this country. He essentially ruled the country till the early 60s when a general called Suharto took over and Suharto then ruled the country till 1998. He used to, he had three decades worth. Unbelievable and I came in as a diplomat and saw this country go through the most incredible change.

50:59Firstly there was a financial crisis that bankrupted 85 % of the companies on the stock exchange drove the economy from 7 % growth to 17 % contraction overnight. He's unbelievable. Then there were huge demonstrations in the streets. Suharto was toppled and democracy was born in Indonesia and of course this is the 90s when the US, the UK and Ireland's were incredibly optimistic about all these countries we're talking about in a direction in which Indonesia might go, Bangladesh might go, even Pakistan. We were investing a lot in supporting political parties and democracies and parliaments and all those kind of things.

51:32And Indonesia initially seemed very very positive. So there were a series of presidents from different parties. One general came back in but then Jacoey who'd done a good technocratic job as a mayor and a governor came in and the signs of trouble began to come when Jacoey started talking about standing for third term on constitution. And now we have this very weird situation because Prabowo was the villain, the sort of bogeyman in 98. He ran the special forces and he also very conveniently married Suharto's daughter which is probably partly what letter is, his rise up the military ranks. And then he got charged with all sorts of things to do with human rights and some students who were killed and trying to sort of quail the uprising against Suharto.

52:19Then he went off and live in exile. Well, so the big moment, and I remember the moment because I was sitting in the embassy and a lot of the senior staffers away when these demonstrations of street turned into rumours that Suharto was about to step down on the cabinet and that Prabowo was going to throw coup d 'état. So there were really serious stories about Prabowo moving military units around and trying to take over. Yeah, he was accused of stirring the whole thing up, wasn't he? Yeah. And he didn't succeed in taking over them when his father -in -law stepped down after 30 years of dictator.

52:48And then as you say, he's been running for election ever since. And one of the problems is that the first couple of times he ran, you know, Democrats were able to say this is a really bad man with a bad record. But of course, by the time you're running third fourth time, it's not new news anymore. And he just says, well, that's an old story we've moved on from that. And he's also done this bizarre thing, but of course, resonates with a lot of populists around the world, which is he's reinvented himself as a bad dad dancer. So he does all these movies where he does this really embarrassing crap dancing.

53:21And it's hugely appealing to younger people to working class voters. I mean, I made the point earlier on that there's a massive, massive number of young people. So they have no sort of personal sense of that history. He has reinvented himself as this kind of cuddly, vancular, even grandfatherly figure. And of course, with the sun of the outgoing president alongside him, who's actually very popular, the outgoing president remains very popular. His sun reflects that. So they become quite a formidable team. And maybe we should put in the newsletter, there's some amazing footage that I was watching the other night when I was just era of these rallies that they've been doing together in huge sports stadiums with sort of tens of thousands of people coming out.

54:05That story of the human rights abuses, there was the whole thing about the abductions of these students. I think that 13 of them are still missing. Their parents are never stopped protesting against this guy. He was also inclusive and serious human rights abuses in Timor Leicester when they were Indonesians were occupying that. And this is relatively recent. The big thing has been since he picked these running mates, he's now looking like it's entirely possible he could get over 50 % in the first ballot, which would be an incredible achievement. Yeah, I think he's very, very likely to win. It's very difficult to beat him now.

54:40And he's a really dangerous figure. I mean, you know, this is the full -on populist authoritarian leader. This is a guy, Prabowo has openly talked against direct elections. He's openly attacks the press. I mean, and the courts. And the courts. So if you are somebody who cares about Indonesian democracy, you will be voting against him, but he will portray those people as sort of out of touch urban liberal elite. He has a huge support amongst young people and poorer voters. And it's the same story again that we hear again and again, but this time in a country of 280 million people. And of course, the other sort of really strange element is that so Jacobi's son is standing alongside Prabowo.

55:22And meanwhile, Jacobi's own party, where she has been running for years and years and years, they have a different candidate who he is now because his son is involved essentially. He's also to come out and said anything that positive about Prabowo, even though he was his defence minister for four years. But essentially means that the very popular outgoing president has thought to be backing a party that is going to defeat his own party, who are now basically saying this guy's can have completely led us down. Yeah. And Prabowo, I mean, we talk a lot about corruption in Pakistan. It's the big theme in Indonesia too.

55:57Prabowo is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. The Suhato family that he's obviously married into are worth billions. And he benefited enormously as defence minister from contracts. And then I think maybe to wrap up, I mean, you keep bringing us back to the way that social media and AI is changing the whole world. I mean, you can see this. There's a lot of these buzzer accounts, which fake accounts promoting messages. There's a Ministry of Communications Task Force has been set up supposedly to try to moderate these accounts. But of course, it tends to come down on the side of Jacobi and his son and against the opposition.

56:31You can see these hashtags that suddenly sort of flash up in Indonesia. So there was one that was called Mahasi Swabha Jarak, which means students on the run. And then there was one called Saya Barsama Jacobi, which means I'm with Jacobi on the other side that came up last year. But these are elections in these huge countries, in Pakistan, Indonesia, Pakistan again over 200 million people, Bangladesh which are increasingly formed by what's happening on social media and through AI. And the other sort of big thing that I guess is worth to reflect you all as well is that China, of course, again, very, very relevant to this one because Indonesian China were pretty much during most of the Cold War.

57:10They didn't get on at all. China has been a very important part of the economic development of Indonesia. But they say they want to stay very, very neutral between China and the US as the two great powers. But again, China is watching this very, very, very closely. No, it's a fascinating, fascinating country. And the story of this election has been remarkable. And to see the the tricky pool in getting Jacobi's son stand alongside him. That was a game changer. Good. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Arster. And see you next time. See you soon.