222. Question Time: Banning phones in schools and parliament, citizens' assemblies, and American isolationism

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0:50Welcome to the Restus Politics Question Time with me, Maurice Jutt. And me, Alex Campbell. Where do we start? Well, lots of great, great questions, but one of the ones I really wanted to get to is Citizens' Assemblies, which we talked about in the main podcast. You mentioned the fact that tier -starmer is in favor. I noticed that the spectator is already out there attacking Labour's punicious idea of Citizens' Assemblies, which really got my back up, because I think Citizens' Assemblies are actually a fantastic thing, not just in Britain, but actually in the US and elsewhere to revive democracy.

1:21Just remind people very quickly, they're like a jury, so you select, let's say 300 people randomly, sortish, and it's a kind of random collection of Citizens representing every demographic group in the country. Sit them down for two, three days to talk about an issue, seriously, often with some experts guiding the conversation, and it often has spectacular results, because unlike busy MPs and Parliament voting on party lines, this is a group of Citizens without party commitments able to look at an issue and an island, which is like the most polarized society on Earth, or seem to be on an issue like abortion.

2:00The Citizens' Assemblies really found their way towards a compromise on abortion, and I think if we'd had Citizens' Assemblies after Brexit, we would have ended up in a customs union, rather than the hard Brexit we're at. So over you on Citizens' Assemblies. Yeah, I think it's partly the Irish experience that has made people interested in this, because I'm assuming that what the spectator objects to is the idea that it's a way of trying to get people in and do a sort of glorified focus group and manipulate them to want to go down the track that the politicians already decided upon. But I think if Citizens' Assemblies don't properly, then like the one I think going on in France at the moment on assisted suicide, then I think that it can lead to people really engaging in the debate, really understanding the importance of expertise, and dare I say, are you getting people to sit around the table and disagree agreeably before then finding that there's more that they agree on than they disagree on?

2:58That's lovely. So Leo Russell, a next Simpson just bit shout out to them, because they were the two that asked these questions on Citizens' Assemblies, how transformative could they be? Is it a way to deliver more radical policy once in government without having to include it in a manifesto? It was next Simpson's question. I mean, I think that's an interesting idea too. Well, that is not where the spectator coming from, that is a sort of backdoor policy lever. Yeah, they also attached to sort of attack on Sue Gray and blame Terran Brington. I remember when I was running for the Tory leadership, there was this extraordinary moment where Dominic Robb, who was in the early around and the ITV debates kept saying because I supported Citizens' Assemblies, I was Maduro from Venezuela.

3:36This was a Venezuelan style option. The idea was the massacre. A massive proto -communist. Well, Roy, I noticed that you mentioned the questioners, but without reading the question, the end of Leo Russell's question is, Rory, might this policy help Labour get your vote in the next election? Ah, if they came out really strongly and were really radical and said they could imagine permanent sitting third house of Citizens' Assemblies with the right to review legislation from the House of Commons, yes. Very good, hope they're listening. Now, sticking similar theme, Xavier Golay, who I think is Swiss, but the question is certainly about Switzerland.

4:14You often rule for more devolved powers to local authorities. I wish we did rule, we don't rule, but we argue for. In Switzerland, says Xavier, the fact that every locality can ton can set their own tax rate, enables both more power locally and also a natural way to get people interested in politics. Is this a way forward for the UK? Quick thing. So obviously, Xavier Golay, as presumably French speaking Swiss or possibly German speaking Swiss, what do you think the word is that leads them to say you often rule for more devolved powers to local authorities? I think, well, we did have a question, Rory, about if we formed a coalition who would be Prime Minister and who would be Deputy Prime Minister, what would we fall out at about?

4:53Yeah. So maybe Xavier is sitting there, doesn't follow British politics that closely. You don't think there's a French or German word which could be translated as rule which had something more ambiguous.

5:11Possibly imposing. No, I think he, I think he, but we do maybe just things we were in power. I mean, the country would be so much better. Well, of course, that that was, that was, say, Darren Bent famously thought that to me. And now, just on the system, I was just in Switzerland, just come from Switzerland. And last time he talked to me, I said Switzerland. And it is amazing the way the government works there. How much power the towns have? How much power the canton's have? How little power the federal government has, the way in which referendory use? I mean, I do think Switzerland is a pretty remarkable vision of democracy, often really giving choice to citizens at a very local level.

5:49And possibly a model for the rest of us, but it's quite a complicated system to explain. In a sense, maybe we should try to get a senior Swiss politician on who'd be happy to talk us through how it works because it is, I think it's a model for the rest of the world, doesn't it? They have the, the layers of power. The thing I've noticed whenever I mean to Switzerland is how compared with us, compared with most countries of all, how serious their media is. So if you have, I think to have that system of constant referendums about all sorts of issues, large and small, you have to have a serious media that is, that sees its role as trying to lay out informed debate.

6:28Now, they do have opinionated journalists and they do have opinionated media, but I think they sort of feel that greater sense of responsibility. But I really do hope that Labour go big on devolution. And if you think about one of the things we get quite a lot of questions on, which you come back to, the later date, is this thing about the funnancing of local government at the moment? I mean, we've got so many councils who are heading for bankruptcy. And you can't have proper local government unless the government can actually get the revenue in and set its own tax rates. If you remove that power from them, they're lacking the most fundamental living, I think you've also made an important point, which is a good corrective.

7:04And I'm probably wrong when I was pushing for Switzerland, because what you're basically saying is that you can't just copy and paste a system from one country or the other, because they're culturally quite different. I remember a friend of mine who's Swedish saying that the Brits are absolutely obsessed with trying to copy things from Sweden without remembering that Sweden's taken hundreds of years to develop the kind of culture that supports the type of practices they have in Sweden. It's not just an easy question of pasting it across. Yeah. Now, here's what we're ready to go. Now that Henry Staunton has explained the reason Badenock sacked him, which is because he refused to delay postmaster payouts to allow the government to limp onto the next election.

7:42Do you believe the Tories are attempting a scorched earth policy to mess up the chances of labour in office? Now, Kemi Badenock, we should say, has gone to the House of Commons and has very angrily denied that this was ever said. Mr Staunton, who I don't know, but who is described as a sort of incredibly serious experienced, well -regarded business figure is absolutely 100 % sticking to his story, which I have to say, I think fits with what's happening on the contaminated blood scandal. The story is that he was told it not by Kemi Badenock, but by a senior civil servant, who said, could you delay the payouts?

8:21Because we can't afford it. Correct. There's a letter that is emerged today saying that one of the facts that has to be taken into account is the management of legal fees. But I think the fact that she sort of stomped straight into the House of Commons and did a statement on the parliamentary privilege impugnian this guy pretty heavily, and he's going to be up before we're selected committee next week. So I wonder if she's rather misstep tiered, because if she turns out to be saying something that's not true, she'll have to go. Yeah, she'll be in real trouble. So she better be pretty confident about this.

8:55I'm not sure that it's fair to say the Tories are attempting scorched earth. I think what's probably more likely is they're just desperate to avoid having to pay for things before they hand over. It's more kind of they're hoping to have more money to do tax cuts or they have more money to drive growth. And so I think like almost every government, if you can possibly push the bill onto the next person, you try to do that. I think when you're talking about a contaminated blood scandal on this post -office thing. The bills are astonishing. They get billions upon billions. These bills are big enough to actually kind of upset fundamental bits of budget calculation.

9:36We'll reeky. To one extent, would you consider yourselves to, you're not going to like this, to wealthy privileged white men with seats very near to the top of politics and business and cultural life, part of the problem. Do you agree it's easy to disagree agreeably from the top of the pile? How do you like that? I was to be in characterised, so this kind of toffee knows the leap person sitting at the top of the pile. I don't feel like that. But maybe I don't know. Well, see, I'm not better off than most people, I guess, privileged. I don't feel I've got a seat near the top of politics or business and cultural life.

10:10We've got a seat at the top of the podcast charts. That's not the same thing. We have. We have. I don't feel. Do you feel powerful? I don't feel powerful. No, although it's interesting, isn't it? Whether we're not probably doing more to shape political debate than we're acknowledging. I think there's something quite interesting in the way in which we are very lucky to be able to have an audience, be able to put out ideas and set us in assemblies or put out ideas on some foreign policy. One of the nice things is a lot of our listeners are civil servants, politicians. So I was being called by an ambassador recently who said, be very careful.

10:47You're going to set up a very weird echo chain, but where you're going to end up taking these positions, which will just echo around Whitehall and back again, never on the land of a green. So maybe we need to disagree more with each other. We don't mind that. We don't mind that. I wonder, maybe our discussions on assistance assemblies and the Northern principles did lead to them thinking, well, that's not a bad idea. When we talked about defense last week, I did get from both conservative and labour. I got feedback from ministers and shadow ministers saying, keep going on this one because we really need to push on it.

11:18That's not what I'm doing it, by the way, I do it because I believe in it. So maybe, maybe you're right. But are we part of the problem as the question, Marie? Are we part of the problem? Well, I think there's an interesting thing going on, isn't it? I think the world is changing quickly. And one of the things that I noticed here in the States is that, and I think Britain will follow America in this. One of the big themes amongst students is about what right have you to speak for someone else or represent someone else? What right have I as a white man to speak for somebody from a different gender or a different ethnicity?

11:51And that is a very interesting problem for democracy because, of course, as a member of Parliament, you're speaking for your constituents. And I'm speaking of people who are very different to me. And the problem isn't solved by just getting rid of me and bringing in somebody from a different gender or ethnicity. They would face the same problem. They also would be speaking for people who are unlike them. And I do think this question of representation is going to become more challenging, and that's one of the reasons why I've come back to where we began. I think citizens' assemblies are quite a useful way of providing a balance to this problem.

12:25Yeah. Ken Gray, we haven't talked about Boris Johnson for a while, but I think in the light of Navalny, we should. What is stopping Boris Johnson being investigated properly over his links to Russia? Why wasn't he arrested for breaching security regulations after admitting he went to that party in Como? Any civil servant working for the MOD would have been. This is the famous party where he dispense with his protection. I think the question is absolutely right about a civil servant working for the MOD or anybody who was a depot, a maternity intelligence officer. It would be considered a significant security risk.

12:59One of the problems is that elected politicians, traditionally in Britain are not bound by the normal rules that civil servants are bound by. We talk about tightening up, I'll tell you a friend who just was listening here in the States to our discussion last week about recall petitions. So people who haven't had a chance, we did a YouTube live looking at the bi -elections and we talked about the fact that we're now increasingly recalling MPs for cheating on their expenses or being suspended or breaking the law. The person listening has just said, this is just awful. I can't imagine talking about school teachers or doctors or respected local officials in this normal way, so it's normal for them to break the law in this way and then have to be recalled and sacked.

13:44Well, guys, this guy in Blackpool has got bent and has lost his appeals, so that looks like he's going to head in the same direction. Another Tory, somebody said today, this is the first ever, first time that a Prime Minister is held a general election in the stages with these bi -elections. And do you think, do you think it's working to clean things up? I mean, the hope was that we'd bring in these recall petitions and that would mean we'd get rid of the bad eggs and parliament would become cleaner. Do you think that's how it's working? Well, I don't think it is. I think that this parliament, Chris Bryant's book is compelling on this.

14:22This has been a truly terrible parliament in terms of misconduct, most of it, not all, but most of it on the Tory side. I really do think, I'm sorry to keep banging the old drum again, I really absolutely unconvinced that if Kier's Thalma makes a huge thing about standards in public life and then is shown to mean it, kicks a few people out for the minute they cross the line and is clear about where the lines stand. I mean, the problem with Johnson, we've got this, I haven't seen it yet. There's this new drama based on the account of the Dr Rachel Clark about the health service during COVID and looking at the reviews and looking at some of the stuff on social media, it's clearly just retelling the story that while the health service was working flat out and while the most of the public were obeying the laws, Johnson was off doing what Johnson does.

15:13And I do think the whole thing about Russia, we still haven't had a full account of Russian attempts to influence the referendum or our electoral process. We had the nauseous spectacle of these Tories coming out this week, including Johnson talking about our sadness and the tragedy and the curaging of alne and all that stuff. Well, if you care that much, give back the money that you took from Russians who paid a lot of money to your party to play tennis with you and you were Prime Minister or lead with the Tory party. I just think that Johnson is lost his job and he's lost his status on one level, but he's swanning around the world pontificating, making vast sums of money for telling not very funny aftertons in the stories and still pontificating with his column in the mail wherever it is.

15:58And I just think he's not been properly held to account for his conduct. Okay, well, here's a from go from the Stradis Sirius point you're making to maybe one which is more, I don't know when we're still serious, but Guy Rose, Derrasson Rodin, sure you've seen the very sad news about the passing of Steve Wright. Wondering if you might share a bit about your relationship with British radio, whether any DJs have left a lasting impression on your lives. Thanks, over to you. Well, I really liked Steve Wright. When we were in opposition and we were starting to do, you know, less what we used to call it non news media.

16:33And Steve Wright was, I mean, he's a really good interviewer, very funny, very charming. I'd probably been on his program, I don't know, half a dozen even more than that times. No, probably way more than that, actually. And I don't even know the story. He didn't record interviews live. He would always do them as live, but he just preferred to do interviews without that constant somebody in his ears saying, you've got 30 seconds left, you've got a minute left, he'd like them to breathe and then he'd kind of edit them down. I thought he was a wonderful, warm, positive guy, and it's very, very, very sad that he's died.

17:08I actually like radio a lot when I jumped ship from journalism to work for Tony Blair, the news actually first emerged. I think it was in the telegraph and I was presenting a late night radio five show as one of my little sidelines. So I had this show, I can't remember when it was called now, but it was like, you know, it was very, very late, like 11 pm till 2 in the morning or something. And the two people who I could always guarantee would come on, were Tessa Jowell, God bless her, and you're going to be surprised by this, were Bill Cash. They were my absolute, if we got to sort of 7 o 'clock in the evening, we were struggling to get a decent debate going on, you could always get Bill Cash and Tessa.

17:54And the thing, the nice thing about Tessa was that even if she wasn't on for the whole of the program, she would wait for me and give me a lift home because she lived rather colder. Wasn't that nice? That's very good. Okay, we'll read loads of questions, take a quick break.

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19:19Oscar Watkins, I've always wondered if there are MPs queuing up to go on leading as it appears to be an effective way to reach a large new audience. Therefore, Rory, would you want to go on leading if you were sort of conservative MP and Alistair? Would you advise Tony Blair to go on leading or gone on at yourself? How did it existed when you labor was in power? I mean, I think the answer is we definitely would encourage people to come on. But it's interesting. We've had a bit of problems recently getting conservative ministers on. I was very pleased that Jillian Keegan came on and I thought she gave a good account of herself.

19:50But there is, I think, a sense from the number 10 press machine that they feel that we're a little bit too edgy and maybe not reliably pro conservative enough and that we give labor MPs an easier time than conservative MPs. So we're, I think there's a risk sometimes that they view us a bit in the way that when I was in government, we used to view channel for news. I always used to do channel for news. But the number 10 machine was always saying, why would you do that? None of our voters watch it. I would say that is their loss because I always felt with interviews that the interviewee, I think, if they're any good at what they do gets far more out of it if they are challenged.

20:25Now, we're not rude to people. I thought you were pretty soft on Jillian Keegan. I was moderately tough but not very. I thought we were both very, very nice to Hamza Yusuf. I think some of his supporters probably thought we were a bit rough, but I don't think we were. I thought that was a good rigorous discussion. And to be fair, I was quite challenging to David Lamy. That's midway through. You were? Yeah. And I pushed Keegan's style quite hard. I mean, I don't think it's actually true that I think we've got a good balance of three quarters of it gives people time to talk about themselves their lives.

21:00And then we usually do about 25 % of tougher questions. Yeah, exactly. But if you go through the, let's just go through the cabinet though. Would we have Richard Surnick on? Absolutely. Like a shot. Is the prime minister? Would we have Jeremy Hunt? Yes, I think we would. Absolutely. Would we have James Cleveley? I think we would. I'd ask him why he put out that awful tweet this week about boasting that he stopped any social care sector workers from bringing any family members with them. I thought that was pretty low. Don't put them off. We definitely have James Cleveley. You would have him. We'd have him.

21:31We'd have him. We'd have James Cleveley on. Would we have Camille Badenock -Baid -Not? Yes, I think we would. We've tried to get Michael Gove. He said yes about 15 times, but mysterious, they never seems to turn up. Who else do we have? I think all those people would be. I'd be interested in feeling Ben Wallace. He's no longer the defence secretary, but I think he'd be a good person to get out of it. What about Lucy Fraser? Would you be interested in Lucy Fraser culture? I like Lucy Fraser. It's not about whether you'd like them. It's whether you'd be interested in, would they be interesting to our listeners?

22:01Which of you is interesting? Is Anthony Scaramucci and Robert Sapolsky? Well, Robert Sapolsky, you know, I still think is the greatest, the greatest thing ever. Right, go on. Books on AI, Joe Smith, you've talked a lot recently about the influence that AI will have on our lives as students soon looking to get a job. Are there any books resources you recommend to get to grips with AI? I'd start by recommending maybe less to a couple of our leading interviews with Reid Hoffman and Mustafa Suliman, both of whom had produced very good recent books on AI and what's his call the coming wave. Reid Hoffman's was actually written with ChatTubt.

22:36There's a huge amount of books now coming out on Artificial Intelligence Day. Nick Bossstrom's book I think is a really good way to start. I want to get, which is called Super Intelligence, he's a Swedish philosopher. Have you been reading much about this or is this? No, as I say, we were listening to the Sam Bankman freed book, which sort of touches on it. The last book I read on AI was the coming wave, which I thought was really, really good. I think in conjunction with the podcast, you have to have the two together, because I got the feeling that he was a little bit more negative than he was on the podcast about the whole AI.

23:14I was just talking to someone this morning here in the States who's been doing some amazing work on AI with its medical applications, because what it does is it can suddenly accelerate in organic stuff, the creation of new organic compounds, but also in terms of manufacturing, if you're making batteries or something, massive to accelerate the development of completely new materials for batteries and things. We're just beginning, if you were getting there. This Tristan Harris side, I'd like us to infuse if we're doing AI. He's run something called the Center for Human Technology, and he's, if Reid is more on the optimistic side, Tristan is on the more worried side.