256. Question Time: Will the podcast dynamic change after the election?

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1:51Welcome to the Restless Politics. Question time with me, Alistair Campbell. And me, Rory Stewart, and this is really exciting. Because now we're fully, this is the first question time into the six -week UK election. But a lot of other stuff to cover around the world, I guess. What have you got to start us off with? Well, I think we should start with this question from three women. I'm assuming three women as a social media handle rather than the rest of them. The person's name. Will you still be running your election road show in Cardiff on October 14? I saw a poster for it on Cardiff Station yesterday.

2:20Is the tour still going ahead? Yes, it is. Richie Soonak has complicated things for sure, but all of the venues that we've booked are going ahead. I think we'll have to sort of make it more international, Roy. It'll be the post -election UK road show, but there'll still be the American election and lots of other elections going on. So yes, they're going ahead. Tickets are going very, very well in lots of different places. We've still got a few thousand to shift in the O2, but we're getting there. It'll be exciting, because at least as far as Rory's concerned, you're going to have the chance to discuss the first Labour government for 13 years in office on what it's done in its first few weeks, and we're getting to some gritty policies used, where's the country going as well as the international stuff?

3:01I've got to say, Rory, wait a minute, you've got Richie Soonak, who says that we've all got to learn maths to 18. You'll stuck on this 13 years thing. We're into the 14 years. 14 years, Scott. 14 years is 2010 to 2020. I'm going to leave. Well, it's really astonishing, isn't it? Really astonishing that they've mentioned. I think that's another reason why they can win. And this means that we're comparing it to... Well, it's one of the reasons that things look a bit odd. I mean, we're comparing it to the 13 years of Tory government that went through to Macmillan, and what was achieved or what wasn't achieved, which I think Labour referred to as 13 wasted years.

3:38Then there was the pretty long period of Margaret Satrinjom Major, but even that, oddly, you've got a sense that a great deal was happening during that period, wasn't it? That from 79th through to 97. So I guess that is a longer period. It was 18 years, yeah. But you really got a sense that the Conservatives changed the country. Whereas in this case, I guess we're going into an election where I'm going to appeal to our wonderful polling from Jail Partners again. Whereas Suspects will find, as we do these polls every week, many people in the public struggle to work out what actually has changed the last 13 years, which wouldn't be true of the earlier periods.

4:13No, that's right. 14 years, or 14 years. Now, Rory, let me ask you this one, because I know this is something that you're interested in, so my Rebecca Walker. Can the UK's creative industry still be considered a soft power? Now, this is, yes, absolutely. I mean, the stats on UK creative industries and in particular, on film production are completely staggering. So 17 .4 billion pounds, that 17 .4 thousand million pounds brought into the economy, nearly 290 ,000 people employed in the UK. And individual films, Barbie, for example, which both of us watched, which was shot in Hertfordshire, brought in about 80 million pounds to British economy.

4:55Sorry, which both of us watched. Can you say, can you make sure that was both of us watched? I, we went to see it and we watched it. We don't, it sounds to be like we watch it all the time. I only watched it once. And I'm only, I'm only ever going to watch it once. The other people who've done, I mean, Star Wars, huge number of Star Wars films shot in the UK. 13 billion pounds of Disney sales over the last six years, much of it generated from the UK. Tom Cruise, his mission and possible movies, he loves the UK. There's a location. But what we need in the UK, and we're now moving into second place behind Hollywood worldwide for films, is we still need production space because there's been real moments of where independent production companies haven't been able to get the ground.

5:37And this relates to some of the conversations we've had because there's a planning application in Marlow at the moment, which I think is on the edge of the Greenbelt, which could be fantastic for the creative industries. But raises a lot of the issues that you and I debate a lot about, whether you'll prepare to compromise on the Greenbelt for these kind of growth opportunities. Yeah, well, that's what that's why I suspect, Labour keep talking about the Greybelt. That event we did, you and I did in Leeds last week with UK Reath, with all the investment and infrastructure and housing people. I think they were looking to be able to sort of expand the places that they could do that kind of thing.

6:12Now, Brodie, just on the same subject, and I wasn't going to raise this, but given that I plugged my books on the main podcast, but then discovered that, due to ridiculous off -com rules, that wasn't allowed to go out on Channel 4, I am going to say that one of the people who's quoted in my book on this very subject is none of them here, and nightly, who is, you probably remember, from the Alba Hall, is a big fan of the podcast, but she makes the point that our country is globally renowned for culture and for creativity in the creative industries. But she says she sometimes feels that politics views culture as a luxury rather than the necessity for education of the economy that it is.

6:50And I think that I completely endorse that. I think that Labour, if they come into power, should put the creative industries right at the heart of this growth strategy. I hope we're at something of that during the campaign. Yeah, be great to see who the new culture sector is going to be coming in, and we are Anthony Gormian, if you're on leading, if people haven't heard it, is a really powerful case made for why a carestamer and Labour really need to get behind the creative industries. He paid tribute actually to the Conservative culture minister, Gray Gowry, who he said was the last decent Tory culture minister.

7:21In the House of Lords. He also said, if the shadow cabinet becomes the cabinet, thank him, Debenair, would be the culture secretary, and she is like a really serious musician. Now, that doesn't necessarily translate, obviously automatically translate, but I think it does help if you have people in those sorts of positions who in their own lives have lived and understand why this stuff is not just, you know, arti -farty stuff for people who like the arts, but actually is fundamental to who and what we are as a country in the economy, we can kind of economy that we can build. I also think, again, we can be learning a bit from France.

7:57France has just given a palm door to George Lucas, despite the fact that Lucas has made so many of his Star Wars movies in Britain and helped British economy a lot. I'd like to see Labour looking at giving an honorary knighthood to him and the way that we did to Sir Ridley Scott. It would be a pity if the French yet again charmed one of the great factors our economy away with their offers of honours. Oh God, were you and your honours list, honestly? Panama, Anthony Shaw, please do, I think do means here, discuss the Panama election. Really high turnout, surge of independence, big two parties wiped out, leading candidates, qualified by court for dodgy dealings.

8:35He fled to the Nicaraguan Embassy and his vice presidential nomination wins the election in his place, bizarre election thoughts. And Anthony, thank you for your perseverance because you've been asking that for some time. Sir Rory, just cover off the Panama election. He's right, it was interesting. Yeah, Panama election. So the key figure in the Panama election is a man called Ricardo Martinelli, commonly known in Panama as El Loco. El Loco was the president from 2009 to 2014, very colorful figure credited with enormous investment and growth increasing the size of the Panama Canal. He was done for wiretapping, done for money laundering, was running again in the election.

9:20So having been there, 2009, 2014, hoping to come in as the 2024 candidate. But unfortunately, was sentenced to 10 years in jail, took refuge in the Nicaraguan Embassy in Panama City from when he, once he was running his campaign until the electoral commission ruled against him. So his vice president, Jose Rao Molino, who also was in jail for a bezel month in 2015, managed to come in with a 10 point lead backed by Martinelli, back there, El Loco, and defeated Ricardo Lombana, who's the diplomat. And Panama, I think, interesting. I mean, it's an interesting example of an economy where they have some of the things that we grumble about in Britain without apparently the economic effect.

10:05So like Britain, people complain about skill shortages, a lot of migrant labor coming in, unscilled migrant labor, not properly funded pension system. But all that seems to mean in Panama is that growth has dropped from 7 .5 % a year down to 2 .5 % a year, which we'd be biting people's hands off for. Absolutely. I mean, they had a genuine boom, didn't they? And it sort of, it sort of tailed off. But we should have probably discussed this at the time, because it is one of the more interesting elections that's happened recently, relatively small country. I think it's about 4 .5 million people. Or perhaps 4 .5 million voters.

10:40But the right -wing lawyer, Mr. Malino, is now the president. Just on El Loco, Rory, I'm sure you know who the most famous El Loco is. You must know who the most famous is. Is he a boxer or wrestler, no? As far as I've concerned, the most famous El Loco was a Colombian goalkeeper by the name of Jose René Higuita. And if people want to see some absolutely amazing coverage, of a goalkeeper who was just the bit, I'm most goalkeeper's are said to be crazy. But what made him crazy? He was just very brave. He'd think himself under people's boots. No, he did kind of really crazy weird things on the pitch.

11:19And he had some sort of extraordinary techniques that he used, that nobody else used. And just was a bit, you know, like a lot of these Latin American footballers, like my friend Diego Marlano, that I've talked about, just a very, very, very, very live wire character. What I've never understood is you played with Pele and Marlano. Why is it we don't hear more about Pele? Very good question. Partly because the Marlano day, I can feel the editors rolling their eyebrows, even as I say this, because as you know, I talk about it all the time. Marlano was special because it was the first amazing playing football experience in my life.

11:57And I played alongside him for 45 minutes. Pele was a match at Stoke City's ground where he was unveiling a statue of Gordon Banks of the famous save that Gordon Banks thing in the goal we've made from Pele. And he was sort of, he was a bit older. He was effectively just coaching rather than playing. And it just wasn't as exciting the Marlano thing. And I've always just loved Marlano. I mean, even before I met him, I loved him. So that's why I don't talk quite as much about Pele as I did as I do about Marlano. Jamie, is it time for a new national curriculum? Current ones 10 years old, when you consider world events and societal changes since 2014 completely dated.

12:35So also totally unwieldy with too much to teach. To what extent do you think the general election winner will affect the content of a new national curriculum? Yes, is the answer. I think the current curriculum is largely... The most recent changes were largely under the watch of Michael Gove. Now, I know that Michael Gove has his followers and has his fans as education secretary. But I think I always felt that Michael Gove's vision of education was rooted very strongly in his own education. And I actually think there's so many... So many issues and so many things that children today should be learning about.

13:12There weren't even around them. Artificial intelligence, I think that some of the societal changes should be part of our discussion. And I think the debate about history has changed. We had quite a few questions this week about what somebody called the weaponization of history. I do think there has to be a bit of a change in the way we learn and teach history. And I think we've talked before about how, if there is a Labour government in the early days, they're going to have to do things that aren't just about money and aren't just about rebuilding infrastructure and so forth. And I think the curriculum is an interesting place to start where you can signal changes.

13:47The downside, I guess, for teachers is that it's always very, very disruptive when you have big changes to the curriculum. But I think now this period of history is a good time to do it. Yeah, I mean, that's an interesting one, isn't it? Because we spend a lot of time on the podcast complaining about everything changing too much that there have been, you know, whatever, six housing strategies, five employment strategies, 11 ministers or 14 ministers in the setteapum. So actually, the curriculum is rather unusual being something that has actually stayed the same for 10 years. And I guess teachers who are very, very angry about a lot of things, particularly the volume of paperwork, the way offset and sections work, the way school funding has been affected, presumably feels some relief that at least there's not, they're not having to learn and teach a completely different curriculum every two, three years, but maybe 10 years as long enough for a refresh.

14:38And on the, here's the question Jack Evans, which follows up, what do you make of her histories often weaponized in politics, the empire being an obvious case? Should there be a shift in our school's history curriculum? Thanks. I've just been reading this wonderful book by Satnam Sangera called Empire World, which is really, I thought, thoughtful and balanced. One of the things that he rejects is the sort of totting up the plus and minuses of empire. He points out there's something very odd about saying, well, you know, on the one hand, you know, we massacred people in Amrit Saren empire, the slave trade, on the other hand, we built railway lines and open universities.

15:17What he tries to do is give a sort of much richer, fuller picture of its different dimensions. He actually quotes quasi -quarteng who we infuriated on leading quite a lot in the book. I thought it was a really thoughtful grown -up where I've been at the finish that she was quite a moving section of him attending the Commonwealth Games and Birmingham. Well, you mentioned quasi -quarteng interview. And obviously that got a lot of, when he got a lot of listeners, but he got a lot of comments from people who are saying, you know, why are you giving your platform to this guy, who smashed the economy with Liz Truss, etc.

15:48But I, one of the things I found really interesting in that interview was his take on empire. And I have read his book, it was some years ago now, but I have read quasi -quarteng's book on empire. And I think that is a very, very good example of where a modern curriculum would take a different look and would have a different sense of what the empire was all about. And you see, and this is what I meant about when Michael Gove and his take on the curriculum being very much about his view of history and his view of education. So, and that was, I said earlier, that's obviously where I saw this. Isn't the question about what he's about weaponized?

16:22I think it is weaponized. And I think we have to, if we can, de -weaponize it. And that means having a more measured view of some of these historical events. Okay, Alistair, let's take a break.

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18:40How doers get more time?

18:50Now, what about this one, Rory? I don't know whether you've followed any of this Toby Morris on the COVID inquiry. It's been massively overshadowed by other events, i .e. the election. But what did you make of Simon Case's bizarre performance of the COVID inquiry? It was bizarre. Well, the first thing, I called it a little bit of it and I'd love to hear more, but I think just his background at the background of it is these WhatsApp messages that we've talked about. So Simon Case, head of the Permanent Civil Service. And this is Burke Trenned. This is Robert Armstrong. This is Richard Wilson. These grand, sort of, more than so, hump -free figures the past who have seen as these very dignified, cunning, but quite, sort of, understated figures without who, very careful, not express political views.

19:35And cases WhatsApp's were put out. And they were absolutely astonishing. You know, he referred to the Prime Minister as somebody, Boris Johnson, a mythy, but his Prime Minister, his boss, he's sending WhatsApp saying this guy can't lead. He changes strategic direction every day. He surrounds himself with people who are basically feral. He calls him a distrusted figure. He says, says, I've never seen a bunch of people less well -equipped to run a country. So that was, that was, and called officials, pigmies at the height of the pandemic. I mean, so that was that's the background. What, but how about his appearance?

20:06Well, it got very little coverage in terms of the sort of big news bulletins because of the election dominating things, but I don't even know whether it was live. The bits I saw, I mean, Toby used the word bizarre. It was bizarre because, as you say, we'd had all that, we knew all those things that he'd said as it were privately. The bits that I saw, he was essentially trying to make the case that Boris Johnson was really quite good at certain things. And he kept doing this thing of, almost like he was on, it felt at times like he was on that program of, you know, just a minute where you're just trying to sort of, you're trying to just keep talking.

20:42And he kept saying, you know, this is a bit off topic. Well, it's not for him to decide what's on or off topic. That's what the enquiry is there for. And you know, I'm sure we'll get on to this. And it was bizarre. The whole thing was just weird. And a manor that I found really quite bizarre. I mean, bizarre is the right, Toby. I can't really add to what Toby said. It was bizarre. And it was, there was such a disjunction between what we now know went on, what he clearly felt was going on when he was there, and what he was now saying about it. And I wonder whether he just didn't want to make things worse for Boris Johnson.

21:18I just don't know. That's one here, or a Paul Dreschler, who I'm sure you'll know. He's present at the CBI. And you'll watch what he does here, or it's very, very clever. You know, it's almost as clever as some of your bookplugs. There is something not quite right as I watch all the architects and champions of the most consequential decision taken by the UK this century, Brexit, a band and ship and depart parliament with smiling faces and platitudes. I am on edge. What can I do? Very clever. I like that. That's clever. But he's got a point. He's got a bloody point. He has got a point. Well, it's really astonishing.

21:56Matthew Saeed wrote to Erdken the telegraph. Where in an article that basically says, this isn't a serious election and we're not a serious country. And basically, he takes Brexit as exhibit number one. I mean, he has other ones like Cameron cutting defense spending every year as China and Russia was clearly on the rise so that we're now coming up from this very low start. He points out that the public needs to take responsibility for the fact that on the one hand, we complain about lack of housing. On the other hand, we block every housing application. We complain about public services not being funded, but we don't want to pay taxes.

22:31But his biggest example, of course, is Brexit. And he says that I agree with you. It is staggering. Absolutely staggering that we're going into election where neither the Conservatives nor Labour nor the Lib Dems are prepared to raise an issue where not just almost half the country voted to remain, but where a majority of people now think leaving the European Union was a mistake and where there are so many things like a customs union which could at least be a halfway house towards repairing some of the damage. Yeah, I mean, I felt the most disappointing part of the interview on leading with Rachel Rees is when we got onto the European Union and Brexit because she just wasn't going to go there.

23:07She just was not going to allow it to become an issue. And I felt, you know, I talked on the main podcast. I thought Kirsten Armand did a pretty good job in his first big speech, the campaign, and the way that he dealt with the media and so forth. But you also got to look to the media. I mean, they all raised the questions, you know, small boats and, you know, tax and trust and all the stuff that you respect. But at some point, both Richie Soonach and Kirstaama have got to be asked about this in a serious way because I cannot think of any other issue that would have been so to use Paul Dreschler's word consequential and had such a huge impact upon our economy, 4%, and what's more with this fingerprint thing coming down the track that is going to drive people absolutely crazy.

23:55I can absolutely confidently predict that when we're having to stop and get out of cars and get out of lorries and going to fingerprint tests and all that sort of stuff. So, and yet it's not part of the campaign which instead can become this, let's talk about national service, let's talk about a new sort of approach on pensions. So I just think that Paul says he's on edge, but what can I do? I think all we can do Paul is actually demand of our politicians and demand of our leaders that on this consequential issue, they actually get to a point of saying, yeah, it hasn't gone that well, we're not talking about going in Europe back in the European Union anytime soon, but we're going to have to fix it.