273. Question Time: Julian Assange, firing your friends, and why Labour should raise taxes

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1:35Welcome to the RESTAS Politics Question Time with me, Roy Stewart. And me, Anastakamble. And Roy, let's get Roy in to the kind of guts of this campaign. A couple of questions here. Anne Robinson, can you give some thoughts about why the overall tax burn was lowest in the 80s and 90s yet we were not in the current state, i .e. poor NHS public services, etc. was wealth just better distributed. And one definitely for you from Rob, how does Roy Square's previous support of Cameron Osborne austerity with his current position that Labour aren't promising to spend enough? Well, I mean, these are wonderful, wonderful questions.

2:12Quick apology for everybody, which I've just come out of dental surgery. So if I seem slightly demented, it's that I'm all all up on anesthetics and strange stuff. But so these are the big, big questions in the campaign. And I'm really pleased someone's asked them and nobody is really tackling them. So first question, we get this feeling that taxes were lower in the 80s, but public services were better. The truth matter is that actually we're spending four times as much on the NHS today in real terms, not including inflation as we were in 1979. And we're spending twice as much on the NHS as a proportion of our economy.

2:49So we're spending, you know, over 10 % of our economy on health. So how come we're spending all this money and it doesn't feel like anything's getting better? One big change is obviously demography. So the number of people over 85 has doubled since 1979. And the number of people aged in 18 and 25 has fallen. But people over 85 cost, guess how much more they cost than some of between 18 and 25 to the taxpayer to look after they get a hospital. I'm going factor of six. Ten times more. Ten times more. So you're almost there. But yeah, they cost ten times more. So as we all live longer, the costs get more and more and more.

3:25So that's first thing that the second thing is this question around the tax burdens really interesting because everyone's going to the election saying tax burdens never been so high and people are saying to me when I tweet out, you know, Labour needs to raise taxes. How dare you suggest we raise taxes because the tax burdens have never been so high. The truth of matter is that something very odd has happened. Again, wicked question to you. But who do you think is paying more tax? Do you think it's people on low and median incomes or wealthy people since 2010, since the evil Tories have been in?

3:56Who's actually increased their level of tax their paying? Well, in cash terms, people at the top. And not just in cash terms. Absolutely. What's actually happened since 2010 is really interesting. There's been a very reasonably dramatic drop in the amount of tax that people on low and median incomes pay in Britain. So over the last 50 years, obviously, the basic rates dropped from 35 % down to 20%. We're now paying, if you're on 35 ,000 pounds, so let's say a median income, you're paying 2 ,000 pounds a year less than you were in 2010. National insurance and income tax. If on the other hand, you are in the top 1%, and again, people struggle to work out what the top 1 % is.

4:39So I'm going to be mean to you. What do you think the top 1 % is roughly of incomes in Britain? Oh, is it 150? Good, good, good. Yeah. 200 ,000, 200 ,000, top 1%, they are currently paying 10 ,000 pounds a year more on average than they were in 2010. So oddly, this right wing conservative government has reduced the tax income tax national insurance on median incomes and increased it on high pay people. This is because obviously in 2010, the top red tax was 40%, it's now 45%, they've taken way a lot of the breaks on pensions. By the way, you've somehow changed your backdrop. Have you got one of those fancy machines?

5:16This is, yeah, what with what? It's just the drugs. My end of the drugs, the internet's collapsed. I'm now sitting on top of my Wi -Fi. The British tax burden is still in terms of developed economies pretty much in the middle. It's obviously much less than the US, but it's well below play site France. Yeah, yeah. That 1%, would that include those very, very bad people who pay no tax at all? The ones who literally are so good at it. I wonder whether they're picked up in the figures. I mean, that's 1 % of taxpayers, isn't it? Yeah, obviously there's criminals who don't declare their tax as people who have paid their tax.

5:51There is something very odd going on because the number of people who declare incomes over a million pounds is very small indeed. I think about in sort of tens of thousands if that. Yet, you walk around London, you see all these incredibly fancy cars, all these fancy houses. Most of the tax are not most tax, but a disproportionate amount of the tax that's coming in is coming from people in that over 200 ,000 pounds. Right. That's tax. Now, to go back to the beginning, Rob wants to know how you square your constant bleeding that Labour aren't promising to spend enough with your defence of austerity, which created this mess in the first place.

6:28Well, I suppose the point that I'm trying to make is that actually the current Labour policy, which is to reduce the debt, not increase taxes, and reduce spending by about 18 billion pounds, is a form of minic austerity. And I just think it's something that people need to focus on. And it's going to be very, very painful because as Paul Johnson from what I was about to call the IMF, but is in fact, as you're going to point out to me, the IFS, keeps pointing out that none of the parties, and I mean none of them, not Labour, not Conservative, not Lib Dems, not Greens, not SMP, not Pride, none of them, are being straight about the money.

7:11And it's a glimpse of the blinding obvious. Our public services are bits. There is a huge amount of bills that we need to pay if we're to get our services up scratch. And there's not enough money coming in. In fact, on current track, Labour, which I believe is going to be the next government, is going to have to implement some spending cuts. And the reason I'm a bit worried in the long term is that I don't think that's a very attractive offer of voters that this socially liberal, fiscally conservative model, which they seem to have adopted, which was source of the model of Clinton and Brae, was particularly the kind of model of David Cameron, seems a bit out of step with the time when we all think we need much more spending.

7:53No, people I mean think we need more spending. Right, very briefly, defend austerity. You still haven't done that. You keep avoiding the real question from wrong. But we've defended through this a lot. I think the defence is that I think that Britain wasn't in the position to borrow significantly more and spend significantly more. And if we had, we would have been in real trouble when Covid hit. Okay, other countries did and seemed too fine. Let's move on. Good. Now, Alistair, a question for you, much more jolly question for you, getting off, getting off the tough stuff you can ask. We have a question on Harry Kane.

8:25Andrew, given Harry Kane's response to a question about ex players criticising the efforts, the current crop, what's that? Is that your friend and my friend, Gary Linnocka, Chris? Yeah, I'll do a explainer. Okay, a minute. Do you have any misgivings about passing judgment on the performance of current politicians as they try to grapple with problems which may have perplexed you in the past? Alistair, this relates to the fact that Gary Linnocka on a very, very good podcast called the Restless Football, which may well be related to the restless politics, use the S word, which for Gary, SHIT, to describe the performance of England.

9:03I thought you were going to say splendid or stupendous. No, no, no, he said there was SHIT, which of course he wouldn't say how much of the day, because that would have to be bleeped. And Harry Kane, England captain, was asked about this. I've got to say, I thought Harry Kane's response was very, very good. It was very measured. He said that a lot of the players did listen to pundits and especially those pundits who were former players that they all respected. And he just said, you know, I think they should bear in mind that there was a time when, you know, they were on the receiving end of criticism and it's not nice, etc.

9:35But it really, really was a big deal. When I was in Paris yesterday, I picked up a copy of Leique, the French sports paper, and there it was, you know, Kane, the report, and I critique the Lini Care, and it was like, you know, it was, it's so quite, become quite a big story. But for internationalists, just help us here. I mean, was Gary Linnocka actually right before we get into the details of the response? The general view of England's performance was that they were not at their best. They were a long way off their best. The general view of the European media is that it is only because of our media that England gets talked up so much.

10:12So unless they be everybody 8 -0, it's kind of like it's all a terrible disappointment. But no, so I think Gary Linnocka had a point. I also think Harry Kane had a point. But the question to us, I don't feel at all bad about passing in judgement on the current government because it's like, it's like basically, Diego Maradona passing in judgement on players from Harley Paul United Youth team, you know, it's like, this law is so bad. But you, this is more a question for you because of your book, because of course you were very, very critical of people that you'd worked with, which I sort of try to avoid sometimes.

10:47Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I noticed I was on a stage in Oxford on Sunday being interviewed by front of us called Tom Flatshow, who was a diplomat in the West Corridor. And he, to be cheeky, he texted you to ask for a question to ask me and you asked me to name a player in the Bernley team. But he also texted David Cameron. And David Cameron immediately texted back saying, that's not one for me. And I think what's happened there is that I have really alienated David Cameron. That's why I won't come on the podcast. By the way, I've written about him. Yeah, he won't come on the podcast.

11:23By the way, I've written about him in the book. I mean, obviously, I think because politics matters to so much of our lives because with, you know, governments suspending that it's running pounds, they do our health and our education raise. And because it's democracy, people have a real right to actually know what's going on inside. But it's a difficult choice because there are also my colleagues and they will feel that I'm betraying conferences. And it's certainly true at this point, which you must have experienced a lot when you were in government, which is that it's very easy to criticize me outside.

11:52I was speaking to a, you know, a really amazing guy who's had an incredible record and grew up in poverty. But he gave me 45 minutes on the phone about everything the government's doing wrong and everything's labors doing wrong. And of course, it's very difficult for me not to bristle a bit and get the defensive and saying, well, you know, maybe it's not as easy as that. So you were like, you know, we need to completely abolish the treasury. We need to, you know, duel. You know, if only you spent more money stopping poverty and childhood than you would have spent. And I would say, and so it's that weird sense where someone's saying something which is true, but you're thinking it's much more difficult.

12:27And just come back to Harry Kane for a second. I guess what would be his, apart from the fact that he thinks Garry Leonard has being mean, he must also think that there's something that Garry Leonard couldn't quite get. And at some level that Garry Leonard couldn't be able to do much better a job if he was managing the England team. Well, he did, he did point out that the generation, Garry's generation didn't win anything. But he did very, very, very gently. No, I think what's happened? And, and friend of I had a call yesterday from the Daily Telegraph, who said they were doing a, a big piece about how podcasts in sports seem to be where the kind of, the mood is being created now, almost as much as the paper.

13:07So like, Gary, and obviously Gary, the Caralan Shire, and Michael Riches, their big pundits anyway, their voice kind of carries some weight. But I was struck in Germany when I was out there just how much when you're dealing, when you're talking to managers, whether they're managers, you know, who are currently involved or past managers, how many of the conversations sort of flow around what the pundits are saying? You know, Roy Keen, Roy Keen sort of says something and they all go, you know, do you see what Roy Keen said? He played for Manchester United and the Republic of Ireland, by the way, Roy just in case you'd never heard of him.

13:40So I say, and I think the other thing that happens, people always use this phrase about, you know, inside the Westminster Bubble, but those bubbles are the same in football squads as well. So they sort of take it very, very, very personally. But I find sometimes that I think in a way you are more outspoken about some of your colleagues than I am. I get sometimes get criticised, not least by Fiona saying, you're far too soft on the labour. You get a question every week from somebody saying, do you still think, Julian Keegan's great, because I think she's rubbish. And that I guess is about friendship.

14:16And fun enough, we both got involved in an interesting one. As you know, I've always had a pretty good relationship with Johnny Mercer, veterans minister. Last week I really lost it with him and went from social media because he did an I thought a very, very unfair attack on his labour opponent, Fred Thomas. Frankly, casting doubt over his, I think, his integrity as a soldier. And I think if you're the veterans minister, that is a wrong thing to do. So I called it out and he sent me some very unpleasant messages. And then you asked me to support you on this and I thought, okay, this is a tough one, but I agree with Alistair on this.

14:50And this is my friend and colleague, but I'll come out and say I passionately agree with Alistair on this. And Johnny was then unbelievably cross for me too. Yeah. So these things are, you do weigh them up. But ultimately, I thought in our interview with Alex Shaw, which I really recommend to people. I was a bit dubious about Alex Shaw, because he's not that well known. And as you said, he's a kind of a bit of a kind of central casting sort of Tory politician, but I actually thought it was a really interesting interview. And I thought the thing he said, I was really surprised. I think my first question was how many real friends do you have in politics?

15:24And he basically said maximum four or five. Yeah. And I thought that was very, very interesting. I think that, and it's true in politics, I think you, I think friendship, you have to be very, very careful. And ultimately, Johnny Mercer probably thinks that that is, that was unfair on him. But I think if, if I see, and obviously I am tribal and I am Labour, I see a Labour candidate being attacked unfairly. My instinct is to defend the Labour guy rather than the Tory guy. A lot of this is also because you're working very closely with people. I've seen Alex Shaw kind of pressure. And I saw him take a very brave line on trying to fight for the EU customs union when the whole party was against that and working with me on that.

16:04I've seen Julian Keegan under pressure and being forced to try to endorse Boris Johnson and holding off from that, sticking with me. So a lot of it is about, you know, what, what, what, what, you know, you're experiencing them and their integrity. And they hold the line. And, and I'm afraid often the people that I'm most brittle about. And this is part of the problem, sadly, with, with Johnny Mercer, who's got many, many virtues. But, you know, it was his decision to give a softball question to Boris Johnson at the key moment when Boris Johnson was about a four first question and primates as questions.

16:35When I felt he should have been standing up and saying, you are a disgraced resign. He bowled in a softball question and was made the veterans minister. And I thought, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on a second. There's another thing going on though. I mean, you know, I don't, you know, given that Johnny's not decided he hates me and it's going to start staking me off. Let me, let me start another thing that I think is a theme that has been raised. And this is this question from Bob, which has come in, which is, do we think we should have more soldiers in politics? And this is a big issue in the US.

17:06There's huge political action campaigns, which are just about funding, getting more veterans into politics. And I'm a bit divided on this. There were 51, I think, members upon the conservative party when I was there, who had been in the army, even if they'd just been there for a very short period like me. We will turn up to remembrance day services together. But some of them like Bob Stewart was out full kernel, he'd spent an entire career in the military. But I'm not sure that it's always the answer. And I think there's a risk that if you've been in the military and you've seen combat, you begin to think that's the most important thing in the world.

17:45And it's the thing that really makes you better than other people. And there's a risk that you end up, you know, kind of looking down on other people purely on whether or not they happen to have been shot at or not. And I'm not sure that's a very good guarantee of how well you run the country. No, there are, I think Bob Stewart is a very good example. I had a seemer to have had a very good reputation in the military. But I don't think does have a very good reputation in politics. Labour have 14 ex -military candidates at this election. And that's obviously part of Kierstheim's sort of decarbonification of the party.

18:21Okay, Alice, quick break, there are more questions.

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19:37So here's a question from somebody whose name you may recognise or are you called Joshua Dicum. And it's about sleep. What time? What time does a new Prime Minister get to bed the next day after they've been elected? Presumably, they stay up all night for the count. And then the next day, are they not seeing the Queen? What's the King now, Josh? And taking calls from presidents? Do they stay up all the way through to the next night? Well, I suppose it depends on them. I remember in 97, I think 2001, I think Tony Blair tried to have a nap during the day, pretty much failed. Yes, stayed up through the night, flew back to London, went to festival hall.

20:19I think he got home at about two hours sleep. And then the next day probably got to bed about, about midnight. So yeah, it's a long, long, long night. It's not a famous anecdote. I don't know, it's in your diaries of a rock star saying to Tony, you know, you stayed all the way through the night like me. And Tony saying, you remember? Yeah, it was little Gallagher. And it was it was it was saying, that you stay up through the night and Tony said, well, not using the same stuff that you do. Well, we're going to be doing the same thing because we're going to be doing channel four. By the way, I see they've announced today that they're having, I hope you this is you're on the run of set.

20:57I don't want you to fall if you share. Apparently, the ding dories is going to be one of our guests. It's going to be tough. Maybe we should take a break. Maybe we should take our nap. Oh, it's certainly though, somebody listening to the program, you know, I was making joke about ice baths. Somebody's actually offered to bring an ice bath into the channel for studio for you. Okay, not a lot. You make it. No, it's not a whole lot. I'm the only Israeli worry. Because I worry about every time I go on the television program, I worry about how down market are they going to try and take it, right? We are not taking our clothes off.

21:30Okay. We're not taking our clothes off. Peter, I had to take my clothes off. I went on Saturday to go swimming in the serpentine. Yeah. And of course, when I went swimming in the serpentine, the serpentine swimming club in high park, literally everybody came bubbling up to me and be like, oh, we're taking off after all ourselves. It's wonderful. That's true. So there we are. Now listen, Nikki Robson, how can we shift the focus in our media so that we become better informed about policies, data and evidence rather than the semi -sensationalist gotcha gossip? Now that does feel really like an invitation for me to plug my books for children, doesn't it?

22:02It does. Yeah. No, we were always looking for those opportunities. We are looking for those. But also, while you were in the dentist chair, yeah, I was talking to the new European who I'm pleased to announce have bought shed loads of both of my books. And they have got a new subscription offer. Both books will be signed by me. They will be given free of charge to new subscribers and you sign up for as little as a pound or week to the new European at thenewEuropean .co .uk slash trip. And if you use that as an opportunity to plug your bloody books, one of which is still at number one. And here we come.

22:36Okay. So I talked about this new series of four. So this is politics on the edge. Yeah, I read that one. Now for the first time, you can get all four of them. Same cover. So that's the marches. That's nice. Occupational hazards, which I like. I like the uniform, the uniform covers. I like. And the place in between. So it's now become a four volume series where if you want, you can go walk across Afghanistan, do it with Scotland, do Scotland and Cumbria. And then do and then do politics on the edge. Excellent, excellent. That's great. I wish somebody would do all eight volumes of my diaries in that way.