In short
Podcast Episode Summary: "The Rest Is Politics" - Episode 304
Overview In this episode of "The Rest Is Politics," hosts Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart delve into several pressing global issues, including civil unrest in Slovakia and Bulgaria, the potential for Trump to subvert US election results, and the technological advancements in fact-checking during live debates. The episode is structured around listener questions, providing insights and analysis on significant contemporary political topics.
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Key Topics Discussed
- Civil Unrest in Slovakia and Bulgaria
- Georgia's Foreign Agents Law: Protests erupting in Georgia against a proposed legislation modeled after Russian law that would restrict funding to NGOs deemed "foreign agents."
- Slovakia and Bulgaria's Anti-LGBT Laws: New laws in Bulgaria and Slovakia targeting LGBTQ+ rights, leading to widespread criticism and protests.
- Trump's Potential Interference in US Elections
- Electoral Integrity Challenges: Rory outlines concerns regarding Trump's allies potentially refusing to certify election results, referencing ongoing strategies in states like Georgia.
- Historical Context: The discussion recalls events from the January 6 Capitol riots, emphasizing the possibility of Trump refusing to accept defeat again.
- The Role of Technology in Political Debates
- Fact-Checking in Real Time: Rory and Alastair consider the merits and drawbacks of real-time fact-checking during debates, comparing it to VAR (Video Assistant Referee) in football.
- Political Impact: The implications of fact-checking on public perception and the effectiveness of political discourse are examined.
- Broader Political Context
- Comparison of Global Political Movements: Discussion on populism in Eastern Europe, notably Hungary and Georgia, highlights varying degrees of political stability and alignment with Western ideals.
- The Future of Democracy: Rory expresses cautious optimism about democracy, noting recent electoral victories in Poland and Australia while recognizing ongoing challenges.
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Key Takeaways
- Understanding Civil Unrest: Civil unrest in European nations reflects broader issues of governance, civil liberties, and the influence of authoritarian regimes.
- Trump's Influence: The potential for Trump to undermine electoral processes raises serious concerns about democratic integrity in the US.
- Fact-Checking Technology: The introduction of real-time fact-checking could reshape political debates, though it requires careful implementation to avoid backlash.
- Hope for Democracy: Despite challenges, there are positive signs of democratic resilience in various countries, with new leaders emerging who are relatable and active.
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Conclusion This episode of "The Rest Is Politics" effectively addresses significant political events and issues, blending analysis with listener engagement. The discussions reveal the interconnectedness of global political climates and the importance of maintaining democratic integrity in the face of challenges.
For further insights and updates, listeners are encouraged to engage with the podcast's extended content and community offerings.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
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1:50Welcome to the rest of the politics question time with me, Alistair Campbell and me Rory Stewart. And Rory, we are still in Chicago. We are indeed, yep. For the DNC, Democratic National Convention, let's start with something election related from somebody called RV. Following Rachel Maddo, Rachel Maddo is a presenter on MSNBC, recent piece on Republican electors in the US who will refuse to certify state elections if needed. What are your thoughts on how Trump could try and subvert the US election results to win, including potential interference from Russia? Well, I mean, I think this is something that will be unfamiliar to a lot of European and British listeners.
2:29The American system is obviously very, very constitutional and these decisions are based on micro interpretations of the electoral rules. And in this particular case, it seems that a lot of people who are on the Trump side are trying and in the case of Georgia, appeared to succeed in actually changing state laws. So that electors instead of merely being or either electors or even election counters instead of merely being neutral transmitters of results, have the independence to make their own minds out about whether or not results are valid. And of course, the problem with that is that there are more than 30 officials who refuse to certify the last election who've been reconfirmed as electoral officials in a general sense that across the states, Republicans are already preparing themselves for the possibility if Trump were to lose that they would refuse to certify.
3:24And that would then push the decision to probably a Republican dominated Congress and Trump would try to get in that way every year. I got out of bed this morning and walked down for breakfast and on the television, Donald Trump was on the news. And the rolling thing at the bottom has said, Trump, I'm better looking than Kamala Harris. Okay. Do you agree with that? No. I don't think many people would agree with that. And I just I sort of feel like he's losing the plot. Now we've got to be very you would say that that's not the key message at the moment. I don't think those advisors would be saying what you would have to do is get on the you say, I'm better looking than her.
4:08Now I think that sort of stuff about Trump used to be quite funny and used to be quite interesting. And I think he's just becoming incredibly boring. And I've noticed a lot of people who are used to find him quite compelling. Yeah. So turning off my memory of this is that he would generate these completely daft statements every day, 2015, 2016. And by doing so, get the media attention. I mean, his objective is he wants to see himself on Twitter. And your sense is that actually after eight years of this, people are just losing attention, losing interest. And he can say whatever he wants really.
4:40And nobody's actually going to pick out that. I think so. I mean, you have to be careful because here we are. We're in Chicago. Democrat city surrounded by Democrats. All of who have got the vibe. But we bumped into a guy this morning called Dan Boltsu is a veteran veteran Washington post journalist. He used to be in London. He was telling me, I don't know if he's giving a secret. He's 78 and he's still there sort of chief correspondent. But he was saying he was at Mill Walkie for the Republican Convention. He's now here is that it's the first year we can remember where both parties felt like they were absolutely on the march.
5:10But of course, what's changed is the big change. Joe Biden stepping down. Kamala, it's now going for it. So I think it is still is interesting listening to Anthony Scaramucci and Kathy Kay to the day. Both of them still saying this thing is too close for comfort from the Democrats point of view. I think that's probably right. You can find people say, hold on a minute, don't roll this guy out. But I just sort of feel that this and this week will show whether the Democrats still have this momentum. I sort of feel the wind is going out of his sales. It feels like that. I guess the problem for international listeners is whether to see this stuff about Trump and Republican states lining up officials to refuse to certify valid elections is something to be seriously worried about, which of course is the view of many many Democrats.
5:59Or is this a historical conspiracy theory generated by liberals? And in fact, this isn't actually going to happen. Well, the only thing about that is you just have to go back to where I'm last time. Hang my pants, you know, storm the capital. So I think it's within him, never ever ever to admit defeat. I also think, by the way, that is why it's so important that the Democrat Party somehow does keep this momentum going. And they win big. Because if they went seriously big, then these silly tricks won't help them. Although we did, I'm not comparing the United States to Venezuela, but we sort of said that about Venezuela.
6:30If they win big, you won't be able to claim it or won't be able to claim his one. They didn't win big Maduro claim it. You won't. But I guess in that case, Maduro controlled the release the results. In this case, Trump went control the release. Yeah, this is what we've done by a body that most sane people will think is doing these jobs. There's new mention Georgia there. Let's go to the other Georgia. The Georgia for lessons, which is between Armenia, Azerbaijan and Russia, a pretty tricky place to be in the world. Yeah, it could have been Georgia Gould, newly appointed Minister for carbon -cubbin.
6:58Wendy Shannon, would you be able to offer an explainer on what's happening in Georgia right now? There is not a lot of media coverage. And we also got questions about Bulgaria and Slovakia. I mean, I think it is worth just saying this because you know, we've talked about all -bound, Victor all -bound quite a lot, leader of Hungary. So you've got a situation going here, Georgia, the big thing there, massive protests against this foreign agents law, which is totally based on a Russian law and modeled on Hungary, where essentially, if you're a NGO, you won't get money. If you're basically taking foreign money from countries like America or Britain, you are a foreign agent.
7:39That then means, if for example, you are an election observer, and many of the election observers receive foreign money. If you are any of these classic NGOs, which is so important getting civil society going, so there's German things like the Konrad Adonash, Diffdom or Soros' Open Society Foundation or any of these groups, Human Rights Watch etc. But also local groups. So in the case of Russia, it was Human Rights Organizations that received foreign funding. Very, very difficult, often, for civil society organizations in small countries to have the funding to really hold governments to account without raising some money internationally.
8:16This cuts them off the knees, but particularly, potentially cuts off the election observers from the election coming. Yeah, but it's the fact that it's so clearly modeled on something that they have seen work elsewhere, work in inverted commas. So you've got that going in Georgia. Then in Bulgaria, you've just had a new law passed, which it brought to mind such as section 28, the promotion of homosexuality in schools. But it's another anti -LGBT thing, which is also happening in Slovakia. And in Slovakia, you've got a culture minister who, and it's one of these things, but it's not entirely clear whether she is doing this completely with the support of Robert Fisco, the Prime Minister.
8:58She's got Martin of Simgovic over. And they're essentially purging from senior positions in the arts, people who are not utterly committed to the government and to its values. So, for example, the National Theatre Director is gone, the National Gallery Director is gone, and their crime is pursuing progressive liberal political activism, which does not conform to the heritage of our ancestors. I think, and this is something where we can get into in a bit more depth, I mean, there are two very related stories around populism here. But one of the big differences is some of these countries, a member of the European Union, and some of these countries are not.
9:36And so Bulgaria and Slovakia, and to some extent, even Hungary are slightly more constrained in what they can do. The much more dangerous places potentially still are Georgia, where there is this Russian oligarch called Ivani Švili, who basically controls the whole thing. Moldova, which has been through a very tricky unstable time, Serbia, where now, and we talk about Serbia, we keep reminding people of Serbia, recent poll 32 % of young Serbs are now in favor of a military invasion of Kosovo compared to 22 % of young Serbs against. Croatia now looking at introducing compulsory military service because of the potential threat from Serbia.
10:17So not as a little security thing. Not as a right -wing populist thing. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, as a defensive thing. But I think one of the cases that my friend who I'm very keen to introduce you to Geralt Knoll's would make, who's a huge enthusiasm for European Union largement, is he would say, despite all the troubles in Hungary and elsewhere, actually the fact that populists were defeated and polled, the fact that Romania has gone on a remarkably positive journey in some ways. When in Romania in the 90s, people were, maybe remember, gangsters, secret service, civic corruption charges, anti -Semitic politicians being elected.
10:56Now it's done better in the capital, GBT in many other countries, right? If you stable the Baltic countries doing very well. So a lot of former East Europe that went, and this is a credit, he would say to Tony Blair, and he, you accession, Britain pushing a lot of this, were brought into the European Union after 1980s. I just think because of course the, you know, the argument against that is that that is what led to the immigration that led to Brexit, that led to Britain's decline, et cetera, et cetera. So he would say what you achieved was something really important in terms of stability, democracy, economic growth that, actually apart from the oil rich states, some of the fastest economic growth in the world has been those new European Union member states in Eastern Europe, and that if Blair and others had not pushed to bring them in, those states would be like, Romania would be like Belarus, Bulgaria would be like, Moldova or Georgia, and that actually it's a really smart strategic move that's made for a much more stable prosperous world.
11:55It's very hard to see how, so Serbia, we talked about as you say a lot, Serbia which says it wants to join the European Union is pointing so much more towards Russia now. And likewise, it's very hard to see how Georgia doing this foreign agent stuff and so clearly also pointing towards Russia in terms of the way it's conducting its politics, how that helps, or do you think they've just sort of parked the idea of joining the European Union? Exactly. So just to remind this, this was in some ways quite interesting and exciting. Georgia, Subni, was the EU approved it to be on an accession track and started talking about Georgia joining NATO and all this kind of stuff and it really felt as though Georgia had become, really becoming a West and friend, but in the recent rhetoric over the last few months, it's sounding more and more pro -Russian, more and more anti -US, more and more anti -EU, and if it's turning up in the EU at all, it's turning up at all band conferences talking about the decline of the West.
12:49So I think it's very, very sad. It seemed for a moment as though Georgia might be a success story, but yeah, I think it's a reminder that all these things are on a knife fetch and again, as I think we discussed in our interview with Alvin Korte, the leader of Kosovo, had Serbia been brought into the European Union. It's possible that it would be much more like Slovakia or Bulgaria, which is a slightly populist unstable but not an existential threat, not a country thinking of invading one of its neighbours. By remaining outside the EU, some of these countries can be profoundly dangerous. Final upon on Georgia, this in that we, when Evet Kupa, the British Home Secretary was talking about violence against women and girls in misogyny, possibly coming under terrorism legislation, in Georgia, they've got this history of releasing secretly filmed, explicit videos of women politicians and journalists and trying to shame them and push them out of public life, and they've just also now removed quotas for women in parliament.
13:51So misogyny is becoming a bigger force and back to Slovakia, one of the things that the Culture Minister there is saying is that the LGBT community is sort of undermining the white race. Now how they mix up race and LGBT, I don't know. So all of this stuff goes back to this kind of it is the sort of putin Alban playbook. It is and the smartest person in this story still seems to be Alban, you saw him at the football. And one of the things I've now realised he was doing when he wasn't being polite to you at the football is he was charming all the big German companies. He continues to know that his bread is buttered on big German factories, Mercedes -Benz, etc, investing heavily into Hungary.
14:37If you're certainly going to his picture day, we quite view the sponsors, I'd have to say that. So he, gentle social democratic progressive German businessmen are still putting their money into Hungary. So he's able to play it both ways. He can sound pro -Chinese when it suits him, pro -Russian when it suits him, very pro -Trump. He's talking about he wants Trump to win not just one but two more terms in his latest speeches. This is all about. But at the same time he's just about staying on the right side of the law. But there is still very weird stuff going on. You will have seen it some of the football matches.
15:08Some of his supporters carry flags of ancient Hungary, which includes quite a lot of Romania. But because he's part of the European Union, unlike the Serbs, he's not actually talking about invading his neighbours. Now here's one, James Moules, what do you think is the most politically significant year of the 21st century so far? I think 2014, what's your year? I think, I thought you said I was going to go 20 -16.
15:32I don't think the most significant day was due to the 23rd. I'm really well over it, but obviously. No, I do think 20 -16. Two things happened in 2016. Brexit and Trump. Yeah, that's pretty big. I like that look. I think we are still living certainly from the British perspective and the European perspective with the consequences of both. I think in 2014, I can see why you say that. Why don't you just tell our listeners why you see that? Okay, 2014 is the inflection point where we suddenly see Putin invading Crimea and not getting a proper response. We've seen Narendra Modi elected for the first time in India.
16:06We see ISIS taking over, most so on, creating this caliphate. And it's really from 2014 onwards that you can see a distinctly dramatic annual decline in the number of democracies and increase the number of refugees and increase the number of civilians in conflict from which 2015 law and justice party in Poland and your 2016 date come. And listen, your 2016 date though does relate a little bit to what we were talking about before because those two things are at the core of the European story. Again, Britain's removal from the European Union is a serious issue for European foreign policy, although Europe doesn't want to emphasize that too much.
16:44Britain played a very important positive, interesting role on issues like EU enlargement security in the Western Balkans, which it's no longer playing. We talked about Project 2025 on the main podcast and Britain barely figures where it does figure. There's a mention of Margaret Thatcher because there is the Margaret Thatcher Freedom Centre at the Heritage Foundation which produced this document and she gets one mention. There is a mention about Brexit, which the Heritage Foundation report essentially says it regrets because Britain had this influence within the European Union and so many of Britain's positions were aligned with the United States.
17:24And it says that America should start. It talks about this trade deal being kind of not going to happen for years and years and years. But it says America needs to get closer alongside the UK before it quotes falls back under the orbit of the EU. So that was interesting that we think of Project 2025 as this kind of, you know, mad right wing, etc. lots of which it is. But on that it was kind of speaking to the point you make. Well it's interesting, isn't it, that actually many, many Republicans were upset about Brexit and couldn't quite compute that? Okay, here's a question for you from Tom Gorman.
17:56We now have the technology to fact check what people say in real time. What would be the merits and demerits of using this in TV debates such as Trump Harris? Would it be like the VAR or the political world? So I think our friend David Dean was involved in introducing VAR and football. Would you just explain to this since you aren't football for the next, what VAR is? Would you do a good thing? No, a stands for. No. Video assistant referee. Okay, so this is where something happens in the field of play and there is some disputors to whether it was handball, whether it was a foul, whether it was offside or onside.
18:27And this way, to the referee go to his earpiece because somebody is looking at a television screen. Somebody's looking at it. Yeah, in fact a team of people are looking at it on, on whole banks of television. Does it work in football and what's the controversy in football? Because somebody regains it, aren't they? And it's not going to be. Well, lots of people were for it before it happened. Yeah. Now that it's happened, the, the, the, the made argument, by made argument against it, is it, Rugby League, which as you know, Rory is a wonderful sport. Yeah, I know it's all northern and breaking. Yeah, yeah.
18:52One big support probably. Rugby League is brilliant at using VAR because they make it part of the spectacle. The fans see what the VAR referee is seeing in the same time. Gotcha. So it's part of the thing where it's in football. Yeah. You basically stand there, something having happened. So you celebrate a goal. Yeah. And then oh no, it's gone to VAR. So you have to hang around. Sometimes we're like two, three minutes. Okay. While they're looking at every angle. So it takes the drama out of it. And people, people watching on television. Yeah. They can see what's going on, but the people in the stadium car.
19:19So that's why I don't like it. But I think on balance, he's been, he's been quite a good thing. Whether it would work in this context, I mean, in a sense, this is happening already. So is that when the TV debates happen to say between Trump and Harris, millions and millions of people will be watching and social media ring at the same time. The question I guess is whether TV people should do it in real time. I think there's a case for it because the fact is that normally you'd expect the interviewer to pick up and say, excuse me, it hasn't Trump or excuse me, Keir Starmer. I mean, that is not a factually accurate.
19:55Yeah. Okay. But there's a real danger, particularly with Trump, that he wants that because then he just gets into a fight. Yeah. So actually having something that comes on the screen. Yeah. Fact check. Untrue. I think that could be quite a powerful thing to do. You'd have to develop an institution. Wouldn't you? I mean, it's for it to really work. You'd want a pretty independent institution, which would have to develop its rules over time because there'd be a lot judgment calls. Is that something important enough to stop players that were and come in? And of course, all the parties after the debates are going to protest massively if there are many more facts.
20:31Okay. So if you think about the Biden Trump debates, obviously you and I particularly enraged by Trump's nonsense. But of course, Biden partly because of his age was saying an enormous number of things, which was simply untrue. He would say billions, when he meant millions, he'd say thousands, when he meant millions, exactly. Yeah. So the screen would have been crowded. Yeah. No, it's not just every day of the world. Explasing all of Biden's mistakes as well. But go back to who we discussed earlier. I'm better looking at the Kabbalah Harris. So it's dry well. That's the only thing. But when he says things like, you know, I created more jobs than any president in history.
21:04Somebody who's kind of embedded in the facts ought to be able to to say that's, you know, fact check, president X actually created more jobs during. But I suppose so much of this stuff is subjective. I guess I don't know. It's a tough one that is a good question. But I think because as we've discussed it, I've realized there are there are many, many, many downsides. Okay. And it's a quick break and then more questions.
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22:58And we are out of time. Are you really cutting me off?
23:29Boring money moves make kind of lame songs, but they sound pretty sweet dear wallet. BNC Bank brilliantly boring since 1865.
23:43Welcome back to the Roses Boring's Question Time with me, Aastakambal and Mirorys Chut. Now we've just done this, I think, really, really interesting interview with the Premier of South Australia, Peter Malanowskas. But there's a question here from Meg Davis. Can we please revisit Nick Clegg's statement that you will not find any studies showing correlation between social media and polarization in light of several studies like this one, which you took me 30 seconds to find and we'll put it in the newsletter. And as I said, this is really good reporting by New York Times Journalists, which is really relevant to where we are here in Chicago, which is that when Facebook Nick Clegg's company was promoting reliable news sources, there was much less polarization on social media before the November election in 2020.
24:30Yeah. After the election, they released those constraints because they weren't making enough money by people reading reliable news sources. It seems all the new types of journalists claim. And this appears to have a good correlation to the violence in January the 6th. So it's a very, very odd claim. I mean, we forget research. We experience it in our daily lives as I keep saying, if I put out a tweet saying, interesting fact, people, you know, call Chicago the Windows City, but it's not because of wind, right? I'll get 10 likes. If I say, Rory Steurich, be casted off to the International Criminal Court in the Hague, right?
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25:05I'll get 15 ,000 likes. Most often said about me, actually, but it's not by you yet. So we experience it, right? And of course, as regular users of Exxel Twitter, we realize that these algorithms train us as much as we train them because if you pay attention to likes and retweets, you begin to realize that the more snappy, outrageous and provocative you are, the more likely you are to get good responses. As I, in common with lots of other people, continue this sort of agonizing about whether to just dump the whole thing. I have migrated to Blue Sky. Oh, right. Okay. And I know that sounds a bit boring.
25:39Yeah, but it's quite a, well, I'll tell you what something was interesting about it. So I set up the count with help, obviously. And I then sort of posted, I think, one post. And then I got an email saying that I'd been suspended. You've been suspended from Blue Sky. Yeah. So, so I thought what the hell's going on? So I emailed Blue Sky and said, what the hell's going on? And they said, Oh, if you announce on Twitter that this is you, we will reinstate it, but we worried that it was somebody impersonating you. So I then went back on Twitter. And I said, I'm, I've just got my first post on Blue Sky.
26:12Blue Sky saw it and I'm back. But one thing I noticed is that my tree of the day, yeah, got a lot of love on Blue Sky. Yeah, well, that's true. I mean, it's a very, very nice. It's was there with the idea of something. When I post, you know, beautiful pictures of me and Afghanistan and historical buildings on Instagram, you know, I get like crazy number of likes, which doesn't happen on Twitter. So, but I also say, it's like, you're worried that Blue Sky is trying to do a marketing trick there. They're trying to get all your Twitter followers. You've got a minute Twitter followers to notice you've moved to Blue Sky.
26:40So it's, yeah, I'm sure that's right. I'm sure that's right. I do, I'm gonna say, Lane Andrews, who's substacked piece we talked about last week or the week for. On what? On social media, on how the government doesn't need to change the law. But I think he's got this new word for Twitter, which is shitter x i double t i r. It's pretty good that shix. Is that how you pronounce it? It's good to hear you. It would be. It would be. No, it's good. I am getting really quite sick of maths. Pretty fit of maths. And also just, it's just sort of, it's just so unpleasant being on there. I don't listen to, you know, I don't mind unpleasantness.
27:13I don't mind. And I get the war criminal stuff every day and it doesn't, you know, it just is more trouble ducts back. But it's, it's a bit like I said, Trump is boring. I'm finding Twitter really boring. Anyway, I pinged off the Peter Malanowski's interview to Nick Clegg. Yep. Did you ever listen? Yeah. And this is him banning social media from children. Yeah, because he wants to ban social media for children up to 14. Yeah. And 14 to 16, there should be parental consent. And yeah, anyway, I pinged off to Nick Clegg and he sort of got interested. Okay. Oh, there are. Good. Oh, there are. So Peter Malanowski said, I was really charming.
27:49I thought he was amazing on my way to Adelaide and me try to see him. A couple of things. As some of my Australian friends are saying, be a bit careful with the banning political donations because they see it as a bit of a move against it. And banning the police. And I know that's all the party difficult to get off the ground. The other thing that I was wondering is he is such an attractive politician. I mean, he's got a great communication style. He sort of sounds down to earth accessible. I was wondering, what are the similarities and differences between him and Tim Wolves? I mean, are they similar sorts of politicians kind of regular guys?
28:22Or is Manoelowski more sort of sophisticated than Wolves? The different style, is it? Well, he's very good looking. I'm not saying Wolves is not. I'm not. You don't put Wolves in the Trump category. I think Trump is obviously the best tall in the entire world. He's taller than I am. He's sort of really lean and ripped. Yeah. He was photographed on the beach during this other holiday. Look, he's pretty ripped. But I think he's just got a nice manner. I think that came through. But a difference with Wolves apart from what they look like? Well, I think the look is important because I think that Wolves is a peer or is everybody's favourite uncle.
29:00Got you. More sort of down to earth. And so no, I don't. You don't see them as similar. No. I just thought both of them are such attractive visions at the moment of what a modern democratic politician could be. Yeah. And we don't have a quibble of either of them exactly in Britain. I think generally politicians in most countries come across a slightly strange people to be polite. Whereas both Peter Manoelowski and Wolves come across as a relatable normal people. The responses we were getting from particularly British listeners who didn't know much about him was overwhelm when he said that. Yeah.
29:33Why don't we have politicians who talk like he does, you know, kind of thing. I hope our politicians do listen to people like that and understand that there are different ways of giving me the case here. Now, what about this one, Rory? This is from somebody called pinarola fish. Any thoughts on the extent of Nigel Fry's outside earnings, which have now been published, is it time to ban MPs from having other jobs? And this one, and McKinley, Nigel Fry's has not been to his constituency since he was elected. Does the MPs code of contacts state how much attention time should be allocated to his constituents?
30:03No, it doesn't. It's up in the end of the lecture, but we kind of we did warn you, Clayton, that he wouldn't really be hanging around there very much in his declaration of earnings, where he's now, I think, soon I guess the wealthiest MP, but Farage is the highest earning MP. He's earning over a million a year from GB news. From GB news? Yeah. Well, he's so poor Marshallis is basically funding him to the tune of a million a year. Yeah, because that's not a profit -making organisation. That is a massive loss, loss -making organisation. We know the GB news isn't there to make money, it's there to influence policy.
30:38And this is something I, maybe this is unfair, but I slightly worried also when Boris Johnson was being paid £250 ,000 to write columns by I think the Barclay Brothers. One of the anxieties might be that it's a way of wealthy people paying politicians who they like by employing them in inverted comments to be generalists or his presenters. He also had to declare who funded him, including some guy who's been to jail for all sorts of stuff, for his foreign travel. And he described his trip to America, this is Farage, as going to comfort or support a friend who'd been shot, even though the friend didn't bother to see him at the time, and represent Clackton on the world stage.
31:23Oh, so Trump didn't meet his dear friend when he turned up? No. How interesting. So you suspect maybe Donald Trump may not be as close to Nigel Farage as Farage suggests? I wonder that, Rory. I wonder. And also he was interested, he talked about this company, this money was paid to his company. And I remember when I first left Downing Street, lots of accountants telling me you really should set up a company because you pay a lot less tax. I can see a criticism though from listening to this podcast, while people saying that you and I doubtless making a lot of money from our media appearances, but I guess the points were not serving members of parliament.
32:01No, but also the company point is no, we do make way more money than we thought we would. And we felt we'd never even talk about money at the start with this podcast. But no, my point is he was elected as an MP in Clackton having tried eight, nine, whatever it was times to get there. If it's true that he's not been to Clackton once since the election, it's pretty bizarre. It is bizarre. It's very odd way of putting it. Yeah. And it's just it's not it's not on. So if you're afraid in Clackton, don't forget is my message. Mindy will he stand again next time it will depend on whether he thinks he's going to win or not?
32:38But I think this thing about it's very very odd because actually it's the first time he's in parliament and generally at least in their first couple of years MPs are quite good at spending time in their constituencies because you read a book about how awful parliament is he's going to hate parliament. When he walks into parliament, he is not legron from up. No, and most people walk out and he speak. I remember going as a one time I think I went to parliament before I was elected was a relatively young person and I remember seeing George Galaway stand up to speak and most of the Labour benches walked out and all the Tories started talking to each other.
33:15And I saw Galaway, he's a horrible man but a very very good speaker delivering this incredibly impressive erasure in parliament and absolutely listening. And of course I had no idea of the backstory. I can understand what was going on. That's what will happen for us. In my view, he'll have four people from his party sitting next to him. Yeah, and also because he is though a pretty good communicator, he probably won't care about that because he will just then clip post. He's all about, he's a media thing. I mean that's all that for Argers. All he cares about is media. And this is true as well because when you see on Twitter or when I listen to see on Twitter a 30 second clip from an MP speaking in parliament, often the chamber is entirely empty.
33:56So I did a speech on hedgehogs. Famously. Now I think that was seen. We should put it in the newsletter. Yeah, absolutely. Seeing seen in parliament by something like a nine or ten people. Yeah. And then seen whatever three million times on such a media. Exactly. Unless you are concentrating, you don't particularly notice the fact that the entire chamber is completely empty because they're obviously not that. I also tell the pocketlight here. MPs will work out where the cameras are. And for us will definitely work out where the cameras are. How to speak. And if you go near the back. So if you're not a front bencher, you can kind of part yourself anyways.
34:29If you go to the back and you've got a big not that nice old fashioned would behind you. Yes. It could be full. Could be full. You never know. Okay. Victoria Gray from the Ross Saturday lecture. Love to hear us speak about the important surprising access to reading and presence. How much could this help in resolving problems critical aircraft? And then Josh Reiting -Gelpe found that the ADHD population presence is ten times what it is in the general population. 25 % compared to any three percent. What do you think can be done to help people with ADHD current in prison prevent people with ADHD current prison?
34:58It's not just ADHD. So 25 % ADHD compared to three percent of the population. Something like when I was present as a 35 % of the prison population of being in care compared to two percent of the general population. Maybe similar number about a third have been excluded from school compared to about two percent of the general population. So these are different ways of looking at the fact that prisoners are not representative of the general population and that it's it's daft to pretend that we shouldn't be looking at where they come from. Their childhoods, their mental health, addiction issues, learning difficulties, literacy difficulties because prisoners remain probably along with in many cases deserving their punishment have inflicted untold misery on the public but are also themselves often very vulnerable, marginalized people from very screwed up backgrounds.
35:53Yeah, no. And the point about reading in prisons, listen, I think the best prisons try their best to encourage that kind of stuff. Some prisoners are just going to push it away. Others, it's not the case. I've been in prisons. I know you will have been where actually you get book clubs, you get art classes, you get people who really kind of try to get into this stuff. I find it really quite strange in the last couple of weeks because like you, I'm a bit of a liberal when it comes to prisons. I think far too many people are in prisons who shouldn't be there. But I do think these people that were being seen going down for the riots for two, three years.
36:31Although one or two I see now are being charged with riot, which is a more serious event than violent disorder. But the government has really got his work cut out in prisons. James Timson has got a hell of a job. And I think one of the low hanging fruit, if I could cheekily suggest to James Timson, is that there are so many charities that want to support prisoners. I think there's literally thousands of them. I think at one point somebody told me I can't quite believe it's true that there are 12 ,000 registered charities that work with prisons. But they have real difficulty often accessing the prisons because the prisons are under staff.
37:10There's no prison officer to greet them at the door. The prisons are locked up. They can't see them. So they have all this stuff to provide. Give a book, which is Victoria Grace Charity, which works in prisons of fantastic example prison charity. If each prison and they're only about 80 in Britain had a designated charity liaison officer, they could bring in incredible amount of philanthropic and voluntary support into prisons after back there. And if a philanthropist listening to this was looking for something they wanted to do, which would make an incredible difference, funding the position of a kind of charity liaison officer in a prison would unlock untold amount of volunteers, tens of millions of millions of people.
37:49That's what we also noticed since James Timson was working with people coming out of prison is the other firms are now trying to get into that same space. So he's going to have a lot of good will. But I think you know I know anybody who's looked at our prison estate recently knows it is going to be very, very difficult a long term to turn the prison around. We should try to get and we'll get James onto him. But it's going to be fascinating. So James, his brother was a conservative MP so he knows a little bit about Parliament. But I saw a lot of him when he was a businessman and I was a prison minister and of course he was incredibly frustrated as an outsider.
38:27But what he saw, yeah, understandably as our uselessness bureaucracy and general lack of progress. Very interesting to see now what he feels when he's there because he'll find it's very different from being the chief executive of a company, being a junior minister in the ministry of justice. Absolutely. Now let's say we're prisons in a different place Charlotte. What do you make of the reports of the treatment of Palestinian prisoners in Israel? Can the international community do anything about it? And this relates to a report that you'd say? Yeah. The situation in Israeli prisons is very, very disturbing.
38:59There are currently 10 ,000 Palestinians detained in Israeli prisons approximately. Of those 4 ,781 have been detained without trial. No charges, no ability to defend themselves. It could be that they are young men of a certain age who might be considered by the Israeli defense forces as potential allies for terrorist groups. Some of them appear to be in purely for posting stuff on Facebook that seems to be critical of the Israeli government. And Batesel Amwich is and is rarely human rights organization founded by progressive Israelis who are critical of the Israeli government, have conducts interviews with 57 of these Palestinians prisoners and have recorded what they believe as an absolutely systematic policy.
39:46Systematic policy of physical torture, mental torture, deprivation of food, deprivation of water, deprivation of sleep, stripping of personal possessions, 12 people being crammed in a prison cell designed for six, some of them sleeping on the floor, obviously no beds, no mattresses, no blankets. And this appears to be in line with the fact that the security minister, Ita Ma Ben Gavir, who's on the rights of the Israeli cabinet, has made it absolutely clear that he intends to make conditions in prisons worse for prisoners. He's trying to hit the absolute legal minimum of provision for Palestinian prisoners, which is leading to this systematic abuse and torture.
40:27Related to this, five Israeli soldiers are still currently charged for sodomizing a prisoner in a desert camp. The associated press in case people think this is just Batesel Amwich making this stuff up has also been conducting interviews with reduced prisoners revealing people who are being allowed into a daylight for 15 minutes in a period of a few days. One of them hadn't been outside I think for 87 days. So this is very, very, very disturbing. You know, whatever one thinks, heinous attacks by Hamas on October, horrifying terrorist atrocities, but the response from the Israeli government is being challenged and should be challenged and is being challenged by Israeli human rights groups quite correctly, because this is horrifying stuff.
41:11I guess the thinking behind challenge question is that is it really being challenged? And you know, here we are in Chicago in the biggest demonstration that's going on. There's quite a few demonstrations around the place. The biggest demonstration is about the American administration of position on Gaza and this pretty steadfast support for Israel. And the other thing in this context that was, I thought, quite newsworthy and interesting this week was this letter of resignation by civil servant at the foreign and Commonwealth of development of his Mark Smith, who essentially has said, you know, I've been trying to raise alarm about our system for selling arms to Israel and what they've been used for.
41:51I get nowhere there from resigning. He's made it probably. Now, actually it didn't it didn't make that much of a splash. It didn't and I think it's this is the point that we've been making repeatedly is that this stuff has just become very, very normalized. And I say Hamas, I think David Lamy, he is reviewing this position about Britain's arms cells, Britain's arms relationship with Israel. I don't know when that's coming. I don't know what the decision will be. But I wonder whether Mark Smith's was a deliberate move trying to push in that direction. I'm sure you've told people in the foreign office who are pretty alarmed about this.
42:23Yes, but there is of course a consensus between the main political parties in Britain and pretty much a consensus between the main political parties in the US as well and pretty much a consensus between the main political parties in Germany, which remained pretty steadfastly pro -Israel. And again, I'm very aware that in quicing this report and criticizing the treatment of prisoners, I can see the flood of emails that's about to come in saying, well, at least we investigate, at least we have human rights groups, at least we have imprisoned our soldiers for sodomizing people. But I think you can get around the fact that the security minister has made it entirely clear.
43:04This is a policy. Yeah, yeah. At nor can you get around the fact that almost 5 ,000 people are detained without trial. Yeah, all the fact that 40 ,000 people are dead. And they're they're not all Hamas. And this is where in Chicago, we need a very clear sense from Kamal Harris on what she's actually doing. What is her strategy? Because clearly Biden's strategy hasn't worked. And I assume that the way to do this, if she wants to try to hold the two parts of her party together, is to say to Israel, your strategy is not working. This is not the way to win a war. And you're going to have to stop doing this.
43:44Meanwhile, let's not forget about Lebanon. Let's not forget about the possibility of a war with Iran. Is it, Henry? What's happening to votes for 16 -year -olds? Why is this hardly mentioned? What should the Conservative party respond to be when it comes up again? This is really interesting because 16 -year -old votes for 16 -year -olds with an early party manifesto. Yes. And the question is basically saying, where's it gone? Yeah. And was it in the King's speech? It wasn't in the King's speech. But that, but I think it's important to understand that they're going to be in for a few years. Right.
44:14So, it's going to be several King's speeches. Okay. There's not going to be another general election. So, as long as this is in place before a general election. But sort of tactically, why not put it in the King's speech? Of course, there's so much other stuff to get in there, I guess. That wasn't that much in the King's speech, was it? Well, it's quite a lot of requires legislation. I mean, there were, you know, very large number of bills. Yeah. I would have thought votes for 16 -year -olds pretty simple bit of legislation. Yeah. I'm guessing that they just think we're, you know, with limited number of bills that we can do.
44:38You don't think you could have given a sense of excitement, progress, action, something. I think that we had another question saying, you know, why did Labour not get the sort of Harris Waltz buzz vibe that's been going? Yeah. This a bit mean to you, but I honestly struggle to really understand even after the election what the big idea is of the policy are, what's in this King's speech? What's Labour trying to do? I mean, I knew, obviously, in 2010, we knew whether we liked it or not, what Cameron Osborne were about, which was austerity. We knew what Boris Johnson was about, which was supposedly leveling up even if he didn't do it.
45:12What we meant to understand Labour's about, at the moment, what we're getting is they've met the public sector pay rise. They're doing stuff on housing. They're cutting spending. The message from the King's speech, they were trying to land, which I think the legislation then has to show that their serious is growing the economy. And I think the big focus on that was planning and building. Right. So I think that's what it was about. And then it got completely kiboshed by the riots. By the riots. And then since then, we've had racial reeds setting out some pretty tough spending. And I think the one that went out clearly went down pretty badly in some places was cutting the winter fuel lands for lots of pensioners.
45:51And when she said he, I always supported. And many of my conservative colleagues always wanted to cut the winter fuel lands petriots. That was something Gordon Brown introduced, wasn't it? Yeah. Because not that we don't think petriots he's bought, but my mother's getting the winter fuel lands. And she would be the first say she doesn't need it. So wealthy petriots definitely don't need it. There's something that should be means tested, no? And glad you said your mother rather than me. I'm hoping that Franky as well. So yeah, I don't particularly want to either. And so how did that go wrong? Given that conservatives like me thought that it should be cut and should be means tested?
46:22Because the government is in our own opposition. Because the Tories are in our own opposition. So they've all been out campaigning for the pensioners to take on the government. And that landed, did it? No, a little bit, a little bit. They've sort of banged on it about it. I mean, the Tories leadership election isn't really, it's not breaking through to the public, I don't think. I think two gunhuts made quite a lot of noise. It's done well on social media. I've been really impressed. So in praising Tom Tugan out from it, I mean, I think he made an exceptional speech in parliament. So I've kind of something probably one of the best speech I've ever heard.
46:48I've been really impressed by the way he's using social media to communicate his journeys around the country, how active he's being the people that he's speaking to. And Jenric is pretty active. Jenric's been mother, chiefly been invited along to hear him speak to the Scottish Conservatives. Yes, I think Jenric and Tugan Hut at the moment seem to be the people who have been in the past. I'm a game battle. It seems to have a strategy of not doing much and not saying much. Yeah. And I guess part of the question is the way in which people handle social media. Because of course one doesn't know with any of these candidates, this is true when I was running.
47:24Exactly how many people are turning up to these events. Or do you see it as a little clip? No. Obviously cut to show as many supporters behind as possible saying here I am in you know, a goddle wing. Yeah. Yeah. And a final question, hopefully a slightly more cherry question when I apologize to the person who asked about water companies and sewage. Is he how do I spread positive is perhaps sorry, I it's so rare on this podcast I can't even pronounce it. How do I spread positivity and hope for the future in my friends and family? The world may be bleak, but I don't want to contribute to the bleakness.
47:55I want to fight it. Good old is he. I'm with is he. I think that these reason to be hopeful even about democracy, even about democracy. And I think it's both that actually not all the elections are going in the wrong direction. We're not in a populist hellhole. It's touch and go in many countries, but being good results from Poland keep praising the teal independence in Australia, decent results and Britain, the pen did less well in France. But it's also them. The moral argument for democracy should inspire us in the future. It's obviously better to believe in equality, human dignity than it is to believe in grim autocracy patronizing authoritarian governments.
48:31And I think that in the end, the right will still win through at the right in the sense of the correct view. Yeah, I'll go back to the point I made about that. Dan Ball said that you know, we went to go into Milwaukee and the Republicans felt they were home and dry. And here we are. The Chicago with the Democrats who are all telling each other, let's not get carried away. But one thing you know is they are completely back in the game. And you know, when you talk about, I had a, I hope Peter does it by me. So I had a message from Peter Badallus in this party who knew us in Chicago. And he said, every time I see Kamala Harris laugh or smile, I feel a little song in my heart.
49:15And she has sort of brought that mood back. It's amazing. And that's not going to put food on the table. But it is giving people a sense of hope. And I think the other thing to say is that you get so much good stuff that you know, we took, this is the rest of politics. We talk about politics all the time. But there's so much good stuff that happens outside. I mean, I spoke to all you last week. It was about amazing. The Olympics are like, well, the Paralympics, I think we're going to be even better. The football seasons back, which is always good. Burnley are top of the championship. We've played two and scored nine goals.
49:48So there's loads of good stuff. And they're amazing films. They made amazing books. So you're getting it from films, you're getting it from football, you're getting from the Olympics. Music. Yeah. I know music. Music. Music. So I've just been listening to an amazing, I think it's the 37 hour course by a guy called Robert Greenberg on the concerto on Brock and classical. You listen to 37 hours. Yeah. And when? Well, I haven't got the end of it. I'm still struggling my way through Bach's round of book concerti. But the lovely thing about it is you get beautiful bits of classical music and then he explains what's going on and how to get another bit of classical.
50:20That's me. I mean, you're an essayist one of the stuff. But what I suppose I'm trying to say is that all of us can find joy in our life in very different ways. I was in the New Hampshire mountains yesterday. I didn't have much of a bath for a shower because I was sleeping in one of those wooden huts with five other people, the kids and all that kind of stuff. But the trees gave me a lot of joy. I took a picture of a tree, which I'm going to share with you for three, three of three of a day. Coming on that. I think for me trees, classical music, keeping me very happy at the moment and for you football and then pick swimming still.
50:48Every day. Every day. I think the important thing is not to allow yourself to be ground down by all the negativity, even when it feels overwhelming. Now, I'm the last, sometimes I do get overwhelmed by it and you know, I go off into one of my kind of headfunks. But I think that if you go out every day and say I am going to look for something today, that makes me feel better about the world rather than worse, you'll find it very, very quickly. Is he? Great end. Thank you. See you soon.
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