356. Georgia, Russia, and the fight for democracy - An interview with the President of Georgia

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0:50Welcome to the REST Sus Politics with me, Royce Chert. And me, Alistair Campbell. And we've just done something which I don't think we've done before, which is a live interview with a very, very interesting woman, the president of Georgia, Salome Zuerrepe Shvili. She's interesting for lots of reasons. A French -born French -raised woman of Georgian heritage, she became a diplomat, ended up as ambassador to Georgia, then renounced her French citizenship and became a Georgian politician, rose to be president, but right now at the centre of a real battle for the future of Georgia. Whether to go down a European path as she wants or down a pro -Putin Russian path as Putin tries to recreate the Soviet Empire with Georgia as part of it.

1:39So Rory, big figure, big moment in her life. Big figure, big moment. And just to frame it, we are talking to her live at a moment where there have been thousands of demonstrators out on the streets of Tbilisi. You will see them, many of them in traditional, almost medieval, Georgian crusader costumes. You can see people doing an amazing swaying dance, demonstrating for Europe and for the election to be rerun because the elections that were held produced a staggering result, which was totally out of keeping with the exit polls and which strongly implies that the Georgian Dream Party stole that election and this has been confirmed by international election observers so that the demand is for new elections to be held.

2:25But we're interviewing her just on the cusp where she's only got a few days left in office before the Georgian dream, which is this proputin party, as she says, taking the country on the path to being a new Belarus, is about to try to topple her and potentially put her in jail. So an extraordinary moment to be interviewing her. Because what's happened is just so that people get the context, she was the last directly elected president, they then change the system so the new parliament, which she doesn't accept, has voted for a former bizarrely a former Manchester City footballer called Michel Caballage -Villy, and he's due to be sworn in in two days' time on December 29th.

3:08So Georgia really is, at a crossroads, it's a fascinating time to be talking to. I want to apologise for a few sound issues at the start. It's a fascinating chat, I hope you enjoy.

3:23I want to ask you first of all, what are you actually going to do on the Sunday? How are you going to handle events when the new alleged president, the guy that Putin wants in there, is supposed to take over? Well, that is the one question I will not answer. Is that for technical reasons? because the plans for Sunday have to be known, especially by the ruling party on Sunday not before. So the most important to know about Sunday is that for me, because of these illegitimate elections and because of the inconstitutional way in which the parliament and was convened twice, it violated the Constitution in the convening of the parliament.

4:16This election and hence the inauguration of the president is not valid. So I remain president and I continue to do my job. That's what everybody has to know. Now the tears of that will be known on Sunday. And Madame President, just for international listeners, American British internationalist would you just tell us a little bit about your earlier life before we get back into the politics of Georgia just to introduce yourself as a person? Certainly. I think that what will be very clear for everyone is when they know that my family left Georgia, my parents were small at that time, but my family left Georgia in 1921.

5:04When And Georgia was occupied by the Russian forces that then became the Soviet forces by the Elevants Russian Army. And that's why they had to leave and go to France where I was born a few years, many years later. And so all my life I was living with this idea that Georgia was going to be independent. It was a firm belief of my parents and of all the people that I was raised with around me. So I was speaking Georgia in the family because we had to keep the language, the culture, and the identity for the day when we would go back to Georgia. And that happened. And it happened when I went back to Georgia, becoming the first French ambassador to Georgia.

5:55And then the foreign the first minister in a very short time, so that there are two lives. I first became aware of you because I saw you speaking in a French television interview and I thought, my god, this woman speaks amazing French. What's the best answer? There it is. So how did a French woman who was born and raised and educated in France and became a French diplomat? What was the path that led to you becoming a Georgian citizen and ultimately a president Georgia? Well, that's what I think that I was basically raised in two different cultures, the one that was formed by my family and the community of the Georgians in the immigration in Paris, that was very tight and where we learned everything about the history, culture, language, where singing and dancing Georgian.

6:53So the traditions were kept and what was kept even more Or was this idea that this country was a country that had been fighting for centuries, for its independence, at survived these centuries among many empires that dominated Georgia. But that fight was not finished and would not be finished until Georgia recovered its independence from the Soviet Russia. And that's what happened. And when it happened, and as soon as it happened, and before it happened, in a way I went to the diplomatic career in France, because I was convinced that the day when Georgia would be independent, what this small country would need would be somebody qualified in the foreign policy in diplomacy for a small independent country.

7:47And that's what happened, which is maybe a coincidence or not. And Madam President, the story of Georgia, after it, the Soviet Union collapsed and Georgia achieved its independence, was followed by a period of great optimism. During the 90s, early 2000s, people really saw Georgia as being a country like one of the Baltic states, like Estonia, Lithuania, or Latvia, that was on a very, very positive path towards economic growth, democracy, integration with the West. What does that moment like and what then happened? Well, first of all, a lot of hope. One has to also see that this fight for democracy and independence did not start in the 19s at the time of the dissolution of the Soviet Union, but was there during all the Soviet period and was there during the Russian Empire when Georgia practically was the insurrection after insurrection, small rebellion, big rebellion, in which at that time it was the aristocrates that was leading this fight.

8:58But then it continued under the Soviet, despite the repressions. The church was at the forefront of this fight, but also the intellectuals. And gradually the Soviet regime managed to really decimate the intellectual elite and the aristocratic elite of Georgia. But very soon, as soon as the Soviet Union started crumbling in the 60s or 70s, emerging in Georgia, even a bit before the Baltic States, a new dissenting society, new intellectuals and a fight for these independence that was very strong and that really encompassed a large part of the society. And I would say that what followed was through different regimes.

9:52Lots of new, Sherwanda, they started talking about NATO and Europe and about the gas supply. I'm going to interrupt for a second. So, shevonadek again for international listeners was the famous Soviet foreign minister who went on to become the president of independent Georgia. Sorry, back to you. Who had been the leader of Soviet Georgia for many years and not a very liked leader when he was the leader of the Communist Party. But then he had this change of and became the leader of independent Georgia and the one that had some sense of geopolitics of that time and knew where would be the partners of the next decade for Georgia.

10:37Then came Sarkashvili, who had this new sense, but we had also the Gamsa Hool de 'Ali leadership before Shavarnadze. And then Sarkashvili, who had the new sense of reform that were necessary for the state, which Shavarnadze did not carry on because he was after all a subject raised person. So he could see the geopolitics, he couldn't see how you built a democratic state, which Saka really tried to do, at least half of his regime, but then the one party the power took over and he had his own deviation towards autocracy. And then came this new regime that started with really democratic and going towards Europe and putting in the constitution that the European and Euro Atlantic integration was a duty of all the Georgian institutions.

11:41So very much the very right path that was supported by the very large majority of Georgia. But then again, after a while we see the deviation towards autocracy, towards not giving away some of the power. But more than that, And that is what is really concerning, is that in the last two, three years we have seen this Russian deviation of the power that had never existed before. Even Cheval Naze did not try to accommodate the Russians. Can I, can I say that Georgian dream is accommodating? Can I jump in and ask you in relation to the Georgian dream? So you were at some point supported by them. You've since very much fallen out with them.

12:28But just tell our listeners and viewers something about the role of a vagina, Ivan H. Vili. This is this billionaire who, you know, we keep reading essentially controls Georgian dream. But just explain to us how significant he is in this story that you're living through at the moment. Well apparently he is very essential to everything. He tried to hide for a long time behind the non -formal role. He was prime ministers and he left, he said I'm going out of politics and then he refused to meet with everyone including the president because he was supposed not to be in politics. But he was very clearly the one that was dictating the decisions of the young group of leaders that were in Georgian Dream.

13:20It was important to know that the Georgian Dream, which supported me and which was elected with a very vast majority in 2012, was made of people that were really pro -Europeans, really pro -democratic, started the Democratic reforms. But then left. The Georgian dream of today, it's not only a president that has left, I was never in the ranks, I was not a party member or anything of that kind. But many people from the party, from the parliament, that were the original Georgian dream, have left disappointed first by the autocratic turn and then very radically by this Russian turn of a Georgian dream, which seems today to answer your initial question completely under the control of only one person, which is Mr Ivan Ishwili.

14:15Nobody else decides anything today. And Madam President, just again for international listeners, remind people why Georgian matters absolutely for the Georgian people, but also for the wider region and for the world, Why this is a key strategic area? Over these 30 years, Georgia has been really the place and the stronghold of our Western partners, B .D .A. European, British had interest in Georgia for much longer than that during the time of the first Georgia independence in the 1918 -1921, where even British troops were present in Georgia and if they had not left, that's a question that I will always want to go back to one day when I left time.

15:06If they had not left the history of Georgia would have been probably very different, but they have left. And so this region has always been a strategic point, a stronghold. And the Russians, the Russian Empire and the Russian and Paris generals were always saying who was KELSEE holds the Caucasus. And we all know now that the Caucasus today is the place to which connects Europe to Central Asia to very important resources. Even more so since Russia has been heavily sanctioned and that many of the roots are not going through Russia and longer, that means that it gives even more importance to the Caucasus.

15:53And many of the infrastructure, big projects of the European Union of the Western partners goes through the Black Sea and the fate of the Black Sea is a very important part also. Armenia has been looking now again, it was a case and then no longer, but it's been looking towards Europe has been taking very brave decisions since the war with Azerbaijan and is really turning to Europe. But the turn to Europe of Armenia without Georgia cannot happen. And that's why it became really a wide picture in which it's not a surprise that Russia is testing It's new hybrid strategy on Georgia, on Romania, on Moldova.

16:45These are the countries that are the Black Sea coast beyond Ukraine. In Ukraine, Russia and do not make any mistake. Russia has not succeeded into winning this war and into controlling Ukraine and its Black Sea coast. that was probably one of the important parts, especially since Crimea. So the Black Sea is very important for Russian strategy, and suddenly Russia has come to this idea that military intervention is something for it very costly, which it cannot manage very well, and it has not managed very well. It now needs Koreans, North Koreans, to help it out, and it has not managed very well in Syria.

17:31So the military aspect of Russia's strategy is a bit shaking these days. Mr. Putin is not so secure, but he's trying a new strategy, which is through elections to overcome these democratic countries. Because democracy is democracy, so you have elections and European countries do not dare to say that the elections were stolen. You have aility to say it. Right behind you there, you have the Georgian flag and you also have the European flag. And when we watch the demonstrations of the people who are out calling for new elections, often they're waving European flag, is this very much now a battle between Russia wanting Georgia and the Georgian people wanting the European Union?

18:22And secondly, secondary to that, how do you feel about what Broyan and I both taught on the podcast, we sense a lack of support from European Union leaders. I mean, all band is the only one who has been to Georgia since the election. And I just wonder how you feel about that, whether you feel you are getting the support that you need from the European Union. First of all, yes, it's a battle between Russia and Europe. That was a case for the elections. That's why the Russian in putting those elections. So it was very well planned long in advance. And the Russian law that we didn't understand why it was reintroduced after having been well -estrawn, which made a lot of protests also at the time.

19:06The foreign agents bill. Foreign agents bill. What's part of the pre -election planning? It affected the non -governmental organizations, their work, their many things. So that would be a long story, but it was an election. It was, in fact, and I said that before the election, it was a referendum between Russia and Europe and hence the determination with which these pro -Russian government and with the help of Russians, including directly Russian propagandists that were in policy at that time, were so adamant to win those elections against all odds. And after that, it continued with a decision by the Prime Minister to declare that he was going to cut short the discussions with the European Union and basically tell us that we were turning towards friendly Russia, who applauded Mr.

20:03Putin and all his allies applauded these decisions of the Georgian leaders ruling party. And the Prime Minister, Mr. Kovahidze, so he's been elected using the elections religious religious, but who does he answer to? Is he answerable to Ivan H. Vili? Is he answerable to Putin? Who is controlling him? He's answerable to Ivan H. Vili. What is the direct link with Putin, whether they receive instructions, whether they just apply in advance the instructions when you want to be complacent to a strong neighbor. What is the exact, how say, affiliation between those is very difficult to know, and that we want to know now.

20:54What we can look is the objective picture. The objective picture is that Mr. Kobachizad, the fact of Prime Minister, goes for in Iran for the funeral of terrorists that he goes and these government people go to every other day to Hungary and they feel very close with Hungarians. They also go to China and they have given some of the very important, strategic or at least it's in the process and some are signed, some are not. And we don't know exactly because it's not very transparent. But the main strategic objects in Georgia, the port of Anaclia and the second airport, are under discussions with the Chinese who are already very central on the infrastructure projects in central Georgia, the highway.

21:53So their affiliations are very clear. So what happens is Georgia is protesting at the same time and concurrently the elections, the stolen elections and the stolen decision by the Mr. Kabachidz to turn towards Russia. We do not want to become Belarus and that's why people are out on the streets. If it were only a question of one government that is winning over another one and the elections are not very clear and there is some fraud that would be very different. It's not a political question. It's really an existential one and that's how the people that live on the streets really since one month consider that to be.

22:40And Madame President, just to follow up on Alice's question, what more could the international community, Europe, the United Kingdom, the United United States due to support this fight, which is basically a fight between Putinism and Belarus on the one side and a more Western European. I'm very glad that you asked the question. I think it's time for our democratic partners, whether they are European, British or American, to tackle this new reality, which is that Russia is trying to win over democratic countries that are linked to a part of the European Union, or linked to European Union through candidate status, or there, they're trying to be wind them over through elections.

23:31That has happened in Romania. It was, at the last moment, overturned because they still have a constitutional court which we don't have anymore. We don't have any institution left beyond that of the president. They're all in the hands of the ruling party, but completely in the hands, it's not just an overall control or just a chair control, it's completely in the hands. So that's the issue that is now set for the democratic countries, partners. They have to decide whether they will be always so cautious in declaring that elections have not been won, that they are not legitimate. If they are going to continue to use observing missions that are very important and the OEC or the report that came out after the European Council, why?

24:28But it's very clear, except that it doesn't give a political conclusion. The IRI, the Republican Institute's report is even clearer, but they don't have either to make a political conclusion. The political conclusion is to be made by the governments. And for some reason, they have not yet come to the decision that this war, they have to look at it as a war, not as being overall too cautious about what they declare as legitimate, what they declare as illegitimate. Are you disappointed that none of the major European leaders have visited to B .C. and express support for you and the people who are protesting with you.

25:15I'm not disappointed because I know them from inside. I've been part of the French diplomatic service for almost 40 years or 35. So I know exactly how it works. And that's why I'm saying that it's a major, I think, reflection, thinking over how they deal with recognition of elections, not only in Georgia, that will affect tomorrow European countries, as I said, it could have affected Romania and other countries that are going to have elections. If Russia finds out that its strategy in Georgia is successful, I can promise you that they will start and even make it more sophisticated for other countries in European Union.

26:06You said it was a war and yet what it feels like is that if on Sunday, let's say on Sunday, whatever happens that actually, let's say you do get arrested, let's say you do get thrown in prison and let's say that this footballer, this hard -right pro -putin footballer takes over, then Russia has won. And if that happens, Europe has let that happen because Europe has not really spoken Even if that happens, it's not finished, because the Georgian population is on the street. It's a society that is much more democratic than its political elite. And that was what happened over this past. This generation that was born after the independence of Georgia is a very different generation.

26:57And one that is very free, that has been traveling, studying outside of the borders of Georgia. And those people are not going to accept that they are stolen from their European future. The day before yesterday, we had one of the marches because on top of the protest, the massive ones, we have marches from different segments of the society. And one of these marches was a march of all the ethnic minorities of Georgia, including those where Armenians and as there is together. And that doesn't happen in very many countries. And they were all marching for Europe. So whatever happens to me, in a way, it's only going to consolidate these people on the streets.

27:39And whatever the decisions of too slow, too cautious partners that we have, or maybe less so the Americans, let's see what they're going to do, that won't change because Georgia has been used over centuries and centuries to be sometimes bigger, but still a small country, and to be fighting its own fights. Finally, for me, Madame Prisoner, how have you changed over the last few years? What have you learned about leadership at a moment like this? What does this mean to you personally this moment? Well, this moment to me is as existential as it is for the Georgian population and for the country itself, because I came back to this country to serve as a foreign minister And in a way, it was revenge on my family that had to leave the country under a Russian occupation.

28:34So I was coming back at the foreign minister in charge of accelerating the European pass of Georgia. And I've always been pro -European that has never changed. So sometimes they accuse me of having changed. No, it's Georgian dream that has completely changed and has changed the dream into a Russian tragedy. But so for me it's existential. If after six years as a president of Georgia, I had to witness Georgia returning, becoming a type of Belarus that would be a very big personal tragedy together with the countries, tragedy and tragedy of my people. But I'm an optimist. I was always, and I think that this fight is not finished.

29:24I think Russia is much weaker than what the Europeans think. Well, listen, thank you for your time. Can I just ask you as a final question. When you were foreign minister, you spent a lot of time dealing with Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister. I just want to use sense of him as a politician, as a figure, how important he is within this, or is he a bit like Ivan Lashvili, just somebody who is doing Putin's bidding. Oh, I think that, uh, Lava Ruff, when I knew him, uh, and I've said that many times he was, uh, very, uh, high level professional. Some people criticized me for that saying that that was a pro -russian, but he was nothing pro -russian.

30:04He, uh, was, uh, well -trained professional, as are many, uh, Russian diplomats. But certainly was an executive of the decisions that were taken beyond the imp by Putin or by the leaders that were by Medvedev and Putin at the time when they were together. So he didn't have any, I would say, autonomy or at least I couldn't see that autonomy and certainly not today. Whereas, Iman Ishrili has, I think, some form of autonomy towards, certainly he is taking this country in a direction that pleases Putin and is trying to please Putin, but I would not say that he is not himself, somehow afraid of the support of Putin and whether that support is not a bit shaky when he is looking at what happened to Assad in Syria.

31:01So it's a different relationship still it's not a pure executant of Putin and you also knows by having lived a very long time of his life in Russia what Russian leaders do with people they do not need anymore. One word answer will you still be president this time next week and will Georgia ever join the European Union? I will certainly be president this time next week for the Georgian people and that's what matters. And European Union? Well, see. Okay, well listen, thank you so much for your time and good luck. I can't imagine what it's like at the moment, but you seem remarkably calm and relaxed and fresh.

31:46So I wish you all the best this week. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much, Madam President. Thank you. Bye -bye.