409. Question Time: Trump's Golden Dome, Gaza's Global Outcry and Starmer's Prison Gamble

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1:18Hello and welcome to the Rest Is Politics Question Time with me as to Campbell. And with me, Rory Stewart. And before we start today's episode, we want to say a big thank you to all of you who bought tickets for our November live tour. Fortunately for those of you who haven't got round to buying yours yet, there are some left. And I'm very excited that we're going to be on the road again. Back on the tour bus, Macyn tour bus traveling to London, Glasgow, Manchester, Bournemouth. You excited to play Bournemouth for the first time, Alissa? Bring out memories Labour Party conference 1999. 1999, no, the my big memory of Bournemouth is Neil Kinnex speech.

1:53When he took on the militant tendency, that was one of those genuinely historic moments. So yeah, I think that Party Conference's do tend to sort of melding to one, but yeah, I've had some good times in Bournemouth. And I suspect that it won't be the last time that we see big political dramas in Bournemouth, but hopefully ours will be nice, calm, agreeable disagreement from time to time, lots of people, lots of interaction with questions. To get your tickets, just go to AEGP as AEGP .uk slash trip 25. Okay, Roy, let's get going with questions. Ruby Blanche, what would be your best advice for how global leaders deal with Trump and how do you rate King Charles attempt?

2:40Well, listen, I discuss this with Anthony Scaramucci at, hey, and he said that he thought the best thus far dealer with Trump was Mark Carney. And he made the point that Mark Carney, when he won, he was absolutely clear about Trump during the election that this is a threat to Canada and he's going to fight it. When he won, he did not pick up the phone to Trump. He left Trump to sort of hang around thinking why isn't Carney phoning me? And eventually there were sort of talks between officials and the talks fixed up, but Mark Carney was clear. If you do all that 51st state stuff, or you don't show me the respect that Canada deserves, then this call's not going to happen.

3:19Now, easier said than done, I would argue. I suspect that for lots of leaders, Trump would actually say, well, you know, unless you deal with me the way I want to deal with you, then no play, but fair play to Carney, he did that. And now King Charles, of course, is there doing the speech for the throne from the throne. That's like the Queen speech, King speech in our parliament. The Queen did it in 1957, which is the year I was born, that's 68 years ago. And also, I think 1977. So it's the first time in a long time and it's very, very clear, King Charles is helping the Canadian and the Canadian government to push back on this American stuff at the same time as trying to keep good US -UK relations.

4:00Well, I think the key thing is that Canada obviously went fully independent from the UK very long time ago, 1860s. But King Charles remains the head of state and Canada, as he is in Australia and New Zealand. And what he's reminding Donald Trump, Donald Trump is very, very fond of the British monarchy. I sort of, I saw him to someone who knew Trump well and said that one of the stories that he was loved to share is the moment that he and the Melania walked down the steps of Buckingham Palace and said to Melania, I can't believe I'm here. So I think King Charles is reminding Donald Trump that he's the head of state of Canada and that when he starts talking about the 51st state, and he's also directly challenging this monarchy that he claims to respect.

4:48I suspect Melania also said, I can't believe I'm here either alongside you, but you know, we've got a good deal, so let's just smile and pretend. I watched King Charles and Camilla's arrival in Ottawa last night. If it was quite a basic, see, I mean, Mark Cardi, who we've interviewed twice on the podcast and both of us know well, it was quite basic to sort of see him there. Just his incredible story, the Buck Cardi story, he's gone from being this sort of, you know, since his dry bank governor, and there he was, sort of alongside the King play, you know, shaking hands with the crowds, standing and listening to the Indigenous music as they were being welcomed.

5:29But this is a big deal. This is a big deal for King Charles to do this. And when the announced he was doing it, if you remember, I said that one of the things it will do, it will mean that this visit, the King's speech, the speech from the throne of the Canadian legislative program, it will get so much more attention. And he knows that's what he's doing and the play too. And the lovely thing just to finish, I think, with both the King and Mark Cardi, are examples of people who've really stepped into their roles, seems to have really grown into those roles, with people maybe, you know, being skeptical beforehand whether they were super terrible for them.

6:04I think it's, I've obviously extremely biased, because I'm an unapologetic monarchist, but I think King Charles had to put it mildly a pretty difficult act to follow with the Queen. And I think he's done it pretty amazingly well. I think it has given, you know, continued life to the monarchy. And I think it's lovely to see him a Mark Cunny, because they were very close, because they did an enormous amount on climate and trying to get the private sector involved in addressing climate change together, through his sustainable markets initiative. So that's a lovely partnership that's gone on for a long time.

6:35Well, when we're speaking as a non -monarchist, I also think he has stepped into the role he's extraordinarily well. So there you go. Right, Matthew, if Trump's golden dome does happen and the golden dome is a defense shield, it's not a, it's not a new sort of lottery that Trump is launching, if it does happen and if it works, what does this mean for the concept of mutually assured destruction, if it is no longer mutual? Also, if everyone gets one, what does it mean for the future of nuclear weapons? Do they become obsolete? Do you think this will actually happen this thing? I have my doubts. Well, I mean, the first thing is this incredibly expensive and incredibly complicated.

7:12Trump's talking about 175 ,175 million dollars, the Congressional Budget Office talking about 570 billion. And this is about intercepting the cells before they hit, and of course it's called the golden dome, because it's builds on the idea of the Iron Dome in Israel, but the difference is that Israel's about the size of New Jersey, and it largely has to deal with this pretty slow -moving stuff coming from over Iran, which come not quite flapping slowly over the border, but quite different to the kind of stuff that the US would have to deal with from Russia, which are hypersonic missiles traveling at five times as speed as sound.

7:47So if you can imagine what you'd have to do to make this thing, which is weave together hundreds of different interceptor systems, some on the ground, some in space, incredibly complicated command and control done by the US military, this is of course what Reagan tried to do when he began this, his missile defense shield, and it had to be abandoned, because it got too expensive and too complicated. This is the so -called Star Wars program, the strategic defense initiative. Very, very similar. In fact, Reagan called it a suicide pact, which I don't think was very good marketing. Presumably now the technology has developed as such in his name.

8:25This will bear little relation to it, but it's a very, very similar principle. Yeah, and one of the problems is that if you are dealing as Israel is with ballistic missiles fired from Iran and drones from Iran, at the moment Iran has not yet developed a nuclear program. So some of those missiles get through very few of them, but if one or two get through what you end up with is a huge crater next to Mossadek quarters, which was the attack a few months ago. But of course a nuclear missile getting through to the United States, one or two getting through is a very, very different proposition. Okay, let's start with Israel Palestine then.

9:01Jasmine, what do you think the implications will be of the response of Netanyahu to blame Western leaders for the horrific murders of two diplomats in the US? Feels like Netanyahu is deliberately seeking to connect a line between criticism of his government with anti -Semitism, which I find very worrying. Harry, who's a trip plus member from London, why have the UK, France and Canada chosen now to speak out against Israel? The hunger and aid crisis have been going on for months. What's triggered them finally to take a stronger position? What more should they be doing? And also, Monday, Chancellor Merz in Germany, he also joined in the chorus of criticism of Netanyahu, said what they're doing in Gaza can no longer be justified.

9:41There's been a very significant shift hasn't there, which as you say has really only just been over the last couple of weeks. And somehow I think something changed. So I think the peace deal and then the imposition of the food blockade and the fact that it's now a long time since up to over the seventh, you know, well over a year and a half has got to a stage where mainstream European leaders are now much clearer in saying that this cannot be justified, that it's gone beyond what they thought was, you know, the initial narrative was very clear. Israel has the right to defend itself. This is a response to October the seventh.

10:25Since the beginning of the year, I think that's faded away. And in particular, since the food blockade has really faded away. It's interesting, though, that at the same time as that happened, there was this really disturbing horrifying murder of two Israeli diplomats. And obviously, you know, it was a former diplomat. I feel very strongly that diplomats are civilians. They're not not repersonal. A young couple killed just on their own way to an event in Washington, DC. And Netanyahu very, very strongly focusing on this as a way of almost implying that the comments of Macron's Starrmer encouraged this.

11:05And Jonathan Friedland, I think, has written a really good piece in the Guardian on this where he says Netanyahu has got to stop this. At some point, he's got to recognize it's true that anger against his government is not driven by what foreign leaders say. It's driven by what he's doing, but the objective facts of that blockade and that killing of Gaza is fundamentally driving this and that he cannot keep saying that this is just an invented narrative from Israel's enemies. I think a narrative from Israeli's enemies that has really taken hold is the idea that Netanyahu is doing a lot of what he's doing to hang on to his own political survival because he worries that if he's false and if these hard -right figures Ben Gaviere and Smotrich pull the plug that he's going to end these days in prison.

11:59And I think that's an narrative that holds some water. I think the answer to the question of why have they chosen now to speak out against Israel is because they've been trying for a long time to give Israel the benefit of the doubt, but I think they've realized that saying Israel has the right to defend itself does not mean Israel has the right to do whatever the hell it wants. And I mentioned in the parent, probably her other parent was dead as well, they hadn't found him and she was being looked after by her uncle and it was just the most moving thing because I mean she was only five or six, but speaking and describing what had happened and how her feet were burning as she walked out of the fire and how she wanted her mother and she did and that you could literally rivers of tears come down her face as she spoke.

12:54And I think that allied to these pictures of people fighting to get a bowl of soup, the food spilling as it goes into there, just absolute desperation. There was a very moving interview last night with a British doctor Victoria Rose who was just sort of giving the facts of what it's like to be a doctor looking after these people when resupplies are running out. So I think it's that that has turned. I also think that the way that the Israelis communicate over time has done them damage. And the other thing yesterday was Jerusalem Day. So there was coverage of this event where lots of kind of you know, Ben Gives Smotrich supporters kind of going around the place literally chanting death to the Arabs.

13:44Now when you think about what the the appropriate that was that was extended to people, you know, singing that chant from the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free. And yet I think there's just such a double standard that is being seen again and again and again. And I know I'll get criticized for that. We'll get the usual onslaught from the Israeli supporters, the government supporters and from the government itself. But honestly, that is the answer to the question. Leaders like Starma, Macron, Karni, Mertz are looking at this night after night and say, sorry, you have got to slow down here.

14:18And I actually think the pressure will grow on these governments to do more and get into the area of of armed cells and so forth. What's happening? It's intolerable. It cannot be justified. And by the way Roy, they keep saying every time they do one of these attacks and children die and mothers die and fathers die. And they say they were taking out a Hamas commonsanter. When are we going to see the names of the Hamas people that they've killed in these attacks? If they're so sure that that's what they've done, why are we not able to see who it is that they've killed who was in their eyes? Hamas commander.

14:51We saw this in with the attack on the ambulance where they claimed individuals driving those ambulances were connected to Hamas. And the question of who is Hamas, who isn't what type of Hamas you are, is right at the heart of this whole controversy. But from the point of view of a smart rich and banker there, it seems that everyone in Gaza is either Hamas, a Hamas supporter or family member of a Hamas activist. We'll keep coming back to this. Okay, Rory, quick break and then back for more questions.

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16:33The rest of politics is, as ever, efficiently powered by our friends at Fuse Energy. And on the subject of energy, a question from Kate Sawyer, who asks, why isn't the government fighting back more strongly against reform UK, turning net zero into a dirty word? What have they got to lose? So that links, I guess, to the Ed Miliband double part we've just done. What have they got to lose by pushing back more strongly against reform on net zero? Well, if you listen to Ed, and I strongly recommend that the people do listen to, especially part two of the interview, because a lot of it is about this very subject, we asked him whether he felt that they were on the back foot in relation to net zero, and he said absolutely not.

17:15And I think if you listen to him talking the way he does real sort of passion and vigor about the financial benefits of net zero, about the obvious economic environmental benefits, then I think you have a sense of somebody who really feels that he's on the right arguments, he knows how to play them. I guess where Kate's question is coming from is that, and I think this relates a lot to our media about the way that they project this debate that she's probably hearing more about the anti net zero arguments than she is about the arguments that Ed Miliband was putting. And of course, we talked about housing on the main podcast the other day, I think that this is another area that is unbelievably complicated.

17:57But there's a wonderful thing recently with Anushka Astana on the Pestinshow on ITV where she played a graphic, she described the graphic to Kenny Badenor, which just explained the net zero stuff is not adding that much to you Bill, here's where the real Bill's coming from. And a lot of it's coming from gas prices, isn't it? Whole -sale gas prices. The small thing, final thing for me on this question is this question of where you follow the polls and where you change them. And I felt one of the problems with Boris Johnson was very much that he was a follow the polls man. My sense, and I'd love to see what you thought of this.

18:34In British politics, there are probably two issues where it's very difficult to change people's minds and where I think you have to respond to public opinion. One of those is around public ownership, the NHS, which I didn't think is up for grabs. And the second is around immigration. I didn't think there's any doubt that the majority of people in Britain want illegal migration brought down and they want the number of legal migrants released. But in almost every other issue, I think you can lead the national conversation. And one of the problems I think in politics, there aren't enough people in government saying, okay, this may not be a priority for the public.

19:08It may not even be very popular with the public, but we're going to persuade people. We're going to change their minds. And I guess net zero is a classic example of that. I would even argue that NHS in immigration, there is, I agree with you that the debates are real and the kind of love for the NHS is enduring. But it doesn't mean you can't have a debate about the future of the national health service. The light was an immigration, I think there should be more debate about the benefits of immigration as well as the negative stuff. I think in relation to net zero, though, I really do strongly recommend people listen to it because I think what's happened is the right wing and the fossil fuel industries have done a very, very, very, very good job of weaponising net zero.

19:47And if your opponents weaponise something this way, you have to fight back against it. So I think the question is a sensible one because she's picking up on the fact that the debate has moved to a different place is in the end it is up to political leadership to shift the dial on that. So there we are. Fuse giving new customers a free trip plus membership for the whole of 2025. That means that free listening, early access to episodes just download the Fuse app, sign up with the code politics for all the details and full terms head to getfuse .com slash politics. We've got a lot of questions this week on young women and particularly Catherine Dunn.

20:23Are young women being politically taken for granted? I wonder whether you thought why we're getting so many questions and there's some what your answer that would be? I suspect we're getting a lot of questions because there is so much focus in the political debate on young men. We keep talking about, you know, disengagement of young men, angry young men who feel that they don't know what their role in life is. And I think young women maybe feel that it's becoming a given that because young women and women more generally are supposed now to have greater quality, more power, etc. that this is being done at the expense of young men.

21:00In fact, one of the other events I did in Leeds last week there was an event at the Civic Chamber's organoes by a wonderful school teacher called Zara Dixon and it was a mix of adults and school kids. And there was a question actually from a member from a 16 year old from Harrogor who'd come to the event and she was coming at this from the perspective of, you know, do young men understand what the experience of a young woman is these days. She was talking about, you know, sexual assault, about domestic violence, about particularly online, about, you know, I know I talked to my daughter Grace about this.

21:36She said, you know, young women pretty much on a consistent, persistent basis are getting kind of harassed and so forth. So whether it's partly that, that their issues are not listened to. I think there's also an opportunity here which is that if you focus, and I'm partly to blame that I keep telling you to focus on why young men disproportionately vote for far -right parties. But actually there's a huge opportunity in the fact that young women are much more progressive, much more in favour, for example, welfare state, much more interesting climate. Quarter of women aged 18 to 24 votes at green which has twice the number of percentage -wise of young men who voted for reform.

22:12So you could really imagine a progressive politics that addressed young women and focused on getting young women out to vote, which was actually a big problem in the, in the US election, where young men who traditionally didn't vote came out to vote and young women didn't play the role that people were hoping. Anyway, so that's an opportunity. Back over to you. Well that speaks exactly to what I've been saying about my worries about labor strategy being very very focused in a certain direction. One of the events I did at hey, and people gone about young kids not being interested in politics. So you know the big stage at hey, I didn't event on my kids' books, 1700 state school kids from Wales, who'd been you know brought in for the day.

22:52It was, it used to be funded by the Welsh government and now that's been cut so that they got sponsors to bring these kids in. And it was absolutely brilliant. I had them up on stage debating issues like devolution, whether to ban social media, whether Welsh should be taught in schools. And at one point I just said, right, is there any of you who actually just wants to come up and make a speech about something they care about? And it was like the one I picked in the end was because all around her, all her school friends were going, brook, brook, brook, get brook, she's amazing, right? So this girl came up and she just made a speech about inequality.

23:30And it was absolutely brilliant. She slightly lost me when she said that the bourgeoisie are to blame and the proletariat need to unite and rise up against them and so forth. But it was honestly that I had several kids came up and made really really good speeches. And the thing is when I taught, I taught in my speech about about Gina Martin, the woman who got the law changed on up scurting that she drove the up scurting bill. And you know, when you're talking to kids and there were 50, 50 boys and girls. So when I was talking about it and there wasn't a single snigger, when I tell that story to adults, you often get a snigger when they're talking about young guys going around, they were taking pictures of women's skirts, etc.

24:13And this audience, honestly, I was, I actually said at the end of it, Rory, never mind lowering the voting age to 16, which you do at 14 because these kids were switched on, they were passionate, they were boisterous, and they believed stuff. So that doesn't really answer the question. I'd love to, maybe we should ask some young women because we do have a lot of young listeners. Maybe they can tell us and write just about whether they think young women are being Nord, why and what more should we should be doing? Little shout out to Mr Anthony Albanese, the new prime, well, the real electric prime minister of Australia.

24:46First time in history, there are now going to be more women than men in his cabinet, and there are now going to be more women in the house and in the Senate. You know, people going about Australia being a sexist country, that is quite a pretty positive good story to tell. Should you talk about your hero, your hero, you have many heroes, they tend to change week by week, but one consistent hero. Katrina, I regularly listened to your podcast and wondered if you had on David Gork's proposal to chemically castrate those accused of sexual offence, is his vengeance, not justice. Should the state be given this irreversible power over the bodies of its citizens, what if a mistake is made, etc.