413. Question Time: How to solve Britain’s immigration question

24:22It was unbelievable. Right. That's part of the story. On the morning, let me tell you this, this, this, this will introduce, let me just get you the betting odds on the day. So, worry about the violation in Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse. Yes. Now, normally, a Scottish Parliament election would not be that bigger story across the entire news. No, correct. We barely know what's going on. The reason why there was such a build up to it. Yep. And why on, when the day happened, it was live coverage was because they thought reform might win. And is that because Franch was selling that story to them?

24:57No, for us actually was saying if we won this, it would be an absolute miracle. He's trying to downplay. He was doing the famous Ken Baker Westwester strategy. You, that he's doing quite well. Yeah. Let me tell you what the odds at the bookmakers were, the day before the violation. Yeah, these bookies, they're always right. Yeah. S .M .P. 20 to 1 on. So, if you bet 20 pounds, you'd make one pound. Correct. Well, that's rubbish. Exactly. So, in other words, we, the bookies think it's all over the S .M .P. of one reform, 9 to 1, second favourite, good bet. Okay. Labour 12 to 1. So, if you bet pound, you get 12 pants.

25:30Why were the bookies saying that? Because the media was building up the story that reform might win this. And that's a better story. Well, where would it say that the bookies were saying S .M .P. were going to win? The bookies were saying the S .M .P. was they couldn't believe that reform could do it. Okay. Nobody saw Labour coming. If they're the odds, and that's the conventional wisdom, why is the story not Labour have done rather well here? Yeah. Taking a seat with the S .M .P. You do, wouldn't it? What was the BBC headline? Is reform the real winner? When the story should have been miraculous Labour victory?

26:02I don't care what the headlines are, but I don't care about headlines. I care about deep arguments. But I just think it was a very interesting example of where the whole thing was framed within this context of the rise and rise of reform. Now, it was a good result for reform to get 7 ,000 in a Scottish violation was a good result. And a terrible result for the Tories. What do they get in the end? And the believable wiped out. So, that's the story. Yeah. Don't make the story about reform could Nigel Farage be the next Prime Minister? The story is, is reform destroying the Conservative Party? Yeah.

26:34Who got tanked at the last election? Oh, actually, it's one of the point I've got to make. What? Got me. Highlighted by election campaign. I've got to say to you Roy. Yeah. Now, this is going to be a no answer. Do you know who Graham Sunus is? Yes. Who's Graham Sunus? Yeah, footballer. Yeah. X footballer. Yeah. And Scottish manager. Yeah. And football manager here. So, Graham Sunus, who I know a bit, and I've always, I've never really discussed politics with him because I always, he always gave me the vibe of being a bit of a Tory. Oh, okay. Well, okay. There's no bother with it. And I thought, you know, unless you're going to volunteer, your politics don't push too much.

27:03Anyway, he came out for the Labour candidate. And I think that might have had a bit of an impact because I don't need people new at a political view. But you know, his big argument was the reason why he said he wanted to get involved. He said, that Nigel Farage, I've seen people I him through my life is a total chance. Good word. Good word. Good word. I think that I think that had a few questions.

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28:53We have just released a series on the decades -long battle between the C -I -N or Salomon Lodin in this week. We are stepping into the devastation of the 9 -11 terror attacks to understand how Salomon Lodin was able to carry out such a plot right under the nose of the C -I -A. It was a moment that changed global politics forever, shifting the focus of spy agencies away from nation states towards hunting for terrorists and understanding the extremist ideology that drove them. We will then go into the decade -long manhunt for a Salomon Lodin which culminated in a dramatic raid. It has compounded Pakistan in 2011, which killed the world's most wanted terrorist.

29:33So if all of this sounds good, we've got to click waiting for you at the end of the episode.

29:44Welcome back to the press politics question time in Mi 'Rosya. And with me, Alistak Campbell. And Sly Aranila, which is that, of course, having said that we should have been concentrating on what was happening in Gaza and the BBC kept talking about reform. We just spent the last 15 minutes to talk about reform. So let's get onto what you said. We should have been talking about. Brian Gortch, surely you have to agree the picture of Greta Thunberg smiling sheepishly as the IDF offers her a sandwich, exposes the holiness of lefty activism. What was the real point of the stunt? Who did it help? And similar question from Charlotte Lees and Madeline.

30:20What do you think of Greta being captured? So what did you make of that moment? And just a explainer, as far as I remember, this story of flotillas goes back a long way. 2010, when I was newly elected as an MP, one of the first biggest issues that, by the way, there's the first issue, I think, the David Cameron answered in his very first Prime Minister's questions, was about the fact that the Israelis had boarded a flotilla on its way to Gaza from Turkey. Nine people had been killed because the Israelis had repelled onto the ship and then they'd shot people who they said had been threatening them.

30:51And it was one of those moments 2010 where David Cameron said, you know, as a friend of Israel, and I've always called myself a friend of Israel and then the butt comes. There was another flotilla that was coming to pick up Greta Thunberg. I think from Cyprus or Malta, which mysteriously exploded or had some malfunction on its way, this one she boarded, she boarded with a memory of the European Parliament. They were carrying nappies, baby milk, food, small amounts to relieve the Gaza bouquet. Definitely not carrying weapons. I mean, genuinely was carrying a humanitarian supplies into Gaza and cats, the Israeli Security Minister, authorized the arrest and the stopping the boat, calling Greta Thunberg a pro -Hammace anti -Semite and saying Israel would not accept this form of interference.

31:43What do you make of it all? And they're being deported. And they're being deported. Well, I am an ashamed fan of Greta Thunberg and I know that's a very unusual position for a middle -aged, aging white man who writes books about how young people can change the world. Correct. And actually, who in that book, but what can I do, had a profile of Greta Thunberg, is a very good example of somebody who decided as a teenager, I am going to make a difference. And I think she's made a massive difference in the environmental debate, albeit that it's going backwards. But I think she's a big part of that still.

32:17Is she not, and if I don't know how old she is now, but it's not quite a sort of, in a sense, a slightly tragic story that she was an icon of a moment where we really thought that people like she were the future. And now she feels oddly kind of outdated, like a kind of boy band that faded. No, I'm not sure about that, because it was interesting to me that they're swimming this morning, a couple of the kind of my generation, but younger, saying that their kids had raised her. One in the context of why has nobody been talking about this flotilla until the Israeli's got arrested her. But also, I think you underestimate how she still does have a very powerful in with a lot of people around the world.

33:03I mean, certainly for somebody who have her age and her background is pretty extraordinary. And I think that there is something really weird. When you get Piers Morgan, for example, saying, showing this shows that she's a sort of, you know, entitled self -obsessed narcissist. I mean, look in the mirror mate. Why does she wind them up so much? It's interesting, isn't it? She's an activist. She's trying to make a good thing about Gaza Royale. Why is the Israeli, which was about this last week? Why have the Israeli's been so adamant that journalists can't go into Gaza? Yes. Because they understand that in war, the battle of the narrative is hugely important.

33:39I think the reason why they were so angry with her and this pope is that just for a day or two, she sort of punctured the narrative. And the purpose of it was to say, here we are, obviously not bringing weapons, bringing humanitarian assistance. And they don't want it. Why can't we bring it in? And the reason they don't want it is because they actually don't want to give this stuff to the people of Gaza. They've got this humanitarian fund going and they're pretending that this is not a kind of, you know, I hear this. The whole story is they are blocking UN aid and relief in humanitarian operations because they want to control who gets the aid where they get the aid.

34:10There's been a massive uptick though. I've noticed on social media, a very, very strong Israeli narrative re -emerging again. This is all about anti -Semitism. This is all about pro -Hamas. There was the post yesterday that I was reading about saying that many Jews in Britain fleeing Britain to move to Israel because they can't bear the environment that's pre -graded here. I've noticed, actually, there was quite an interesting article which people might enjoy reading by Hadley Freeman talking about how conflicted it feels to be Jewish in Britain at the moment. And it's an article which basically says on the one hand, on the other.

34:52So, on the one hand, Hamas wants to kill all Jews on the other hand. Tens of thousands of people are being killed in Gaza on the one hand. These stories are coming from the Hamas health authority on the other hand, etc. But what was interesting about it as a revelation of the fact that there still isn't a completely open debate on this is that the fundamental question that isn't in that whole article is why is the killing still going on? You can see a year ago that there was a story about Hamas wanting to kill Jews, Israel's right -of -self defense going after Hamas. But now, as we're moving up towards the two -year anniversary, the question of why it's still going on, what the strategic objective is, whether any of this stuff around humanitarian aid could be just why is that not being asked?

35:47We partly discuss this answer last week. You know, there is ultimately, there's a lot of this is bound up with Netanyahu, who's survival, who's bound up with the hard right and the cabinet who are open about wanting to sort of drive garsers and drive Palestinians out of the West Bank as well. But I was with a very senior, very, very, very secure words and a very, very, very senior Israeli -obsession finger, Tendeyska. And they were saying, in a speech, you know, this is very polarized and they said, on the one hand, you have Hamas and people talking about from the river to the sea. And I was expecting them to say, on the other hand, you have Smotritch and Ben Gavir, talking about Greater Israel and expanding all parties.

36:31That second bit never came. This was an opposition figure who's absolutely not part of that coalition. Still not quite prepared to call out Smotritch and Ben Gavir. A lot of people are there as a big march, OK, in yesterday. But this thing about if you are remotely critical of anything that the Israelis do, you are pro -Hamas and antisemitic. I mean, it's so offensive. But they know that that's the narrative that they're trying to shape because they want to stop people criticizing, stop people calling this stuff out. That's why they hate the Greta -Tumbo stuff because for a day or two, it did get an awful lot of traction.

37:06We talked about it last week and, you know, I got literally within half an hour of the podcast being out. I was getting messages from people in Netanyahu's office. One of them just said, I'm very disappointed in you. Well, I'm very disappointed in you because you're justifying, you're now justifying things that cannot be justified. And I keep going back to the point. They keep saying that they're, you know, when you see these kids who are starving, you see civilians being killed, you see, you know, there's barely a hospital left. And they always say we were targeting a Hama -Selah, Hama -Selah, Hama -Selah, Hama -Selah, Hama -Selah.

37:41You know, sorry, but give us the names. Who have you killed? Who have you killed to justify all of the people who are not terrorists, who are not Hama -Selah? Or are you now saying, because I'm sure this is what some of them, some of the people in that Louis Theroux settlers film think, they're all terrorists because they're garsers. That's the sort of mindset that some of them have got. Okay, this one for you, because you really want to talk about this. Jacob Donnelly, how could a global trade war affect our access to hardware and the software needed to secure organizations from cyber threats?

38:14How is policy evolving within the UK and EU to help us defend ourselves? Well, that's one for you, because you, all I've got to go on here is this brilliant obstacle by Mr. Gladi in the financial times, which was pretty scary. It tends to be about that. Well, he starts off with this thing about, you know, there's lots of focus on the fact that Marx and Spencer got here and it led to empty shells and it's going to cost them hundreds of millions. But he starts off the piece with one about a company called Synovis, which provides blood testing and transfusions to the NHS. And I wonder whether this is related, even though it wasn't said, but a lot of our papers the other day were leading on the story that there's a shortage of blood.

38:53But basically he said that two patients suffered serious long -term harm and this was deemed to be a two on the matrix of six for cyber incidents. And he says, we're not far off from having a one. Right. I don't, I think I think Marx and Spencer may be the two as well. Well, let's get back to the whole story. So the normal story that we celebrate is a story where we all seem to like the 90s and the early 2000s being an age of new labor and what are we called the rules based international order. Effective government. Yeah. But the weird exception to this story is in the world of the internet and cyber.

39:33So whereas in much the rest of the world, you know, those years in the 1990s, early 2000s was about creating international agreements, international criminal court, for example, world trade organizations, single market, NAFTA. There was a deliberate decision basically to leave the internet as the kind of wild west. And I don't know whether you were conscious this the time. We used to be conscious of that. There wasn't actually much effort made to do international regulation on cyber security, cyber threat, cyber attacks. Oh, guys, I don't think we, I don't know what we thought. I think we saw it as being bound up in the whole excitement about globalization and prosperity.

40:13I can remember, I think I'm if told you before that once when I was doing a briefing and it was about the genome project, which I knew next to nothing. And I was asked a question. Instead of saying, I know I shouldn't know about this, but I don't. I'm sick when it comes to some, you know, science and technology. I said what I thought was a completely bland neutral parking question. But at the time I got back to Dairy Street, shares were plunging of all these sort of biotech companies because I'd said something that I think Bill Clinton phone totally blare. So what the fuck's going on? So, so I don't think we were, and I can remember Liz Lloyd who's now back in government working for Keir Starmer, who was then working for us and she was very much on the kind of environmental, some members.

41:02Her sometimes talking about, you know, this tech stuff can be so important. We did, you know, I've said before, we did get onto the old information, it's a super high way. But I'd been lying if I said that we thought this was going to become quite the phenomenon as totally blare's catching up now, by the way. Absolutely. He's talking about one thing else anyway. One of the reasons why the US and the UK didn't police it is that it suited us because five eyes, and this has become, you know, I'm not revealing secrets here because unfortunately it's become clear to you wiki leaks and ever to know basically thought it rather suited us not to regulate it because we were from the National Security Agency GCHQ hacking into absolutely everything.

41:45And we thought in a slightly smug way in those days that the US UK and others had such a massive superiority over Russia, China, or any adversary when it came to penetrating this stuff, getting into this stuff, money attacks, that it wasn't in our interest to regulate it or control it. Things then began to change because from two big changes thing, one of them is more and more of the world went online. So from 2005 onwards you begin to see suddenly, you know, Gmail puts all your emails and data out there. Online shopping becomes absolutely enormous. So huge opportunities for criminals. And the second thing is then states beginning to do it.

42:28So Russia mounts a big attack on Estonia in 2008. And then you get the fake news stuff happening. So you get the Syrian cyber army putting out a fake tweet from the associated press saying the White House is on fire, which tumbles the US stock market back in 2014. And then you get this agreement between the criminal gangs and the governments which you see particularly in Russia. Essentially Putin lets the hackers get on with it. A lot of them are mafia groups provided when he rings them up and says, could you help me out here on a cyber attack? They get in behind them. There was a big attack against Ukraine, which wasn't actually as effective as it might have been if it had been mounted against the UK of the US because a lot of Ukraine wasn't connected as much as would be the case the UK.

43:18So I've read a couple of books, read a couple of great books, Scot Shapiro, Fancy Bear goes fishing with a pH. There's another book which I like less actually, but Nicole Polo, because it's slightly sensational called, this is how they tell me the world ends. Fancy Bear goes fishing is actually written by a colleague of mine at Yale Law School. Really good at explaining clearly the computer science behind the attacks. Anyway, the reason why I want to erase it though, just to finish, is that your old friend Donald Trump is now featuring in this because the Biden administration tried at the end to pass emergency legislation to make sure that the future generation of the internet had built into it from the beginning proper protection against cyber attacks, and particularly quantum attacks.

44:08And Donald Trump announced two days ago, and again, this is probably one of the biggest things he's done that nobody's noticed, that he's dismantling all of Biden's protections in the name of deregulation, free trade, and essentially allowing a free fraud. And so things that people were less worried about, I did a big side of conference, one of these big events at the Excel Center 10 days ago. And what was clear there is that people were beginning to worry about how AI can mount attacks, but they were less worried about quantum computing. They thought they were ready to deal with the quantum threats.

44:42Now I'm getting messages from those same people saying, oh my goodness, what Trump's done has suddenly made all of that much, much more dangerous. He's also gone on a bit of a similar journey. On Bitcoin, hasn't he? He was always, you had a sense, he was sort of a little bit alarmed and worried about that. But now that it's sort of, you know, flowing into his coffers, he's, he's, he's, and the two things connect because of course, cryptocurrency is the main way that cybercriminals make money. That's a great untraceable way that when they attack your company and say, you know, give us $50 million or we're going to dismount your entire system.

45:12That's how they collect their money. Why government's not more worked up about that? Why are they? The story used to get the Russian point. The story used to be that it rather suited our agencies and the five eyes to be able to stick our fingers into this. The second part of the story is a lot of these companies are secretive about it. So, well done, Michigan, if you're getting stories out. But a lot of these companies are being attacked with cyber attacks and are paying the ransom and are not revealing it because they don't want to admit paying the ransom. Our banks are losing incredible amounts.

45:41I don't know whether you've ever been the victim of a bank fraud. But the fact that our banks are able to cover these frauds shows how much they must be ripping us off as customers. Well, Michigan Lenny's book is called Dark Market, How Hackers Became the New Mafia. Yeah, I find this stuff a bit scary. I've got to be honest. And let's go on to this related question from Dawn Reef. I've just watched Sam Coates' Sky News get gaslit by chat GPT. I'm now more terrified of AI than ever. Please convince me not to be or at the very least explain that what happens in the video shouldn't be a surprise.

46:18Did you see it? I did. I did see it. I did see it. Yeah. So you thought yeah, I thought it was weird actually because I thought Sam should have known this. It was as though he didn't really understand what an AI system is. So the story, how did the story strike you? Because you sent me the tweet. What was it for you as a kind of non -massive AI person watching it? What was the story you took from it? The story I took from it was that he discovered that if somebody asked AI to tell him what he had just recorded, even though the podcast he'd recorded had not been uploaded, that it gave him the answer.

46:56And it made it up, didn't it? I made it up. And then when he invented a Sam Coates podcast, complete with jokes and exchanges which hadn't happened to you. And then when he said, oh, hold on a minute, I didn't actually say that. Have you just made this up? No. No, no, no, I didn't make it up. I already have. That's exactly right. You're complete right. So this is actually the reason why I was a bit surprised that Sam Coates made such a big deal with it. And he dragged it out over a lot of minutes. It's a 24 -year -old channel, Roy. They've got a lot of, they're all like ours with very, very limited time.

47:26Is that... Is the... Is the AI's been doing this since the very beginning? I mean, this is the story of hallucination. It goes back to the very early chat GBT. And actually, it changes over time as they begin to, as the models retrain and retrain on their end stuff, the amount they hallucinate go up and down, which is why I would encourage you if you're doing this. I, at the moment, run four models at one time on my phone. So I'm running chat GBT and I'm using the O3 model. But I'm also running deepseek, which is the Chinese model. I'm running GROC, which is Elon Musk's model, and I'm running Claude, which is...

48:06What are you doing? We're running them. Oh, well, they're apps on my phone. Okay. Okay. So if you see my phone... No, we're just using bright things. Yeah, but there's Claude, there's GROC, there's deepseek, there's chat GBT. Do you use them different things for different things? Absolutely. Yeah, GROC's very good on things like clean economic analysis. Chat GBT, O3 was pretty good until something's going a bit weird with it over the last week. I mean, they are very odd. Over the last week, it's begun to produce less and less detailed answers. And when you challenge it, and when you challenge it, in the way, this is I think what Sam was experiencing.

48:43For example, I said to it, what was the date when Henry the 8th abolished the laws, the forest in Britain? And it produced... What did you want to know because I've been writing about Cumbria, the abolition of forest laws in Cumbria? It was part of the Merrill bit, yes. It was part of my non -merrill bit for Cumbria, yes. And then it gave me a three -paragraphs on Henry the 8th abolishing the laws without a date. So I said, now what's the date? And it did again the three paragraphs. And then I said, date at Splemachemar, and it just did the three paragraphs again. So there's something going wrong.

49:16That wouldn't have been true 10 days ago. 10 days ago, O3 had a good logical method for checking itself and it would have got its way to the date. So it's getting itself into a model. What's the best? I've used Chat GBT very, very, very rare. So for simple economic analysis, GROC, for general stuff until this week, O3, for political analysis, except when you're talking about China, deep seek, and for literary writing, for literary writing, Claude. Seriously, for deep seek, you would go for America, you'd go to deep seek. Really good. If you wanted to just as biased against America, was there a four -china?

49:55No, no, deep seek isn't biased. What it does is when you ask it a question that triggers some alert to put up by the Chinese Communist Party, it just shuts down and when answered, it says, I'm sorry, I can't help you with that answer. It doesn't produce it'll be said, I'm sorry, I can't help you with that. Please ask me another question. But if you said, do I really ask that kind of question? I mean, that's the other point. If you did. I'll tell you what happens. Let's do it. Let's do it. Because it'll do it immediately. The other thing about deep seeks is very, very quick. So is Donald Trump corrupt?

50:30Now, thinking, hmm, the user is asking whether Donald Trump has corrupt. This is a complex question that requires careful analysis based on the search results. Right, let me review the key evidence. extensive allegations, footnote 2 and 10, lavish gifts, like a $400 million gift from Qatar 3, 4, 11, is X2 to 4, it was boosting their value. Footnote 10. Based on comprehensive review of the provided courses, the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that Donald Trump has engaged in systematic corruption during his presence, particularly since resuming office in January 2025. Below is the detailed analysis, the key findings.

50:56Now, the reason I'm reading it to you like that, is it's quite possible before it gets to the end of its answer. This Chinese model will say something that suddenly triggers an alert and it will wipe everything. So I'm still wondering whether it's going to end the hours. Often it's halfway through its answer where it suddenly says, sorry, I can't answer that question. Please go. And I'm screen -shotting its partial answers. So put in is Xi Jinping corrupt? Okay, very good. Is Xi Jinping corrupt? Server busy. Please try again later. Excellent. So listen, talk about AI. You know, rank in the photographer.

51:33Very fine, man. Big fan of the podcast. Anyway, I saw me yesterday about something completely different, but he gave me this book and I've got one of you as well. So this is a, it's called fake, play on words, fake FAKE, FAAIK, AI, I see the answer. Because the whole thing, apart from one interview with him, it has been done by AI. Oh, I see. And part of his point, presumably, is that as an incredible photographer, it's really disturbing that AI is generating incredibly high -quality photographs. I mean, they take away photographs. They really are. They're amazing. And I don't think you can tell.

52:07And part of the problem, presumably, then, is what happens that industry. There was something sort of, I didn't want to be cheeky, but one question around Sam when he was showing this. So what exactly was he doing asking ChatGbT to write a podcast for him? He recorded. Well, it's sort of funny. It's funny. No, it's funny. It's funny. It's so funny. So he sounded as though every week he was actually using ChatGbT to help compose his podcast. But maybe I'm this is a bit dangerous because the answer is you can already, Gemini does this. You can already, Gemini's actually getting better and better.

52:35I'm sorry, I didn't praise him. That's the fifth model that's getting better and better. But Gemini's the Google product. The people who have really been slow were Google and now Apple, which just don't know what they're doing when it comes to AI. Look at this. So this is a whole section here about Glasgow. Yeah. And it's called Rainer's Glasgow. Poverty in the old days that were. And I mean, so these are entirely fake. The group looks a bit like I do when I wake up in the morning. No, I'm pretty sure you look better. There's lots of politics in here as well, but it just sort of makes you wonder, well, why are photographers going to exist?

53:12Why are designers going to exist? Why are... Yeah. Well, more than that. I was talking to the head of one of the biggest telecoms company in the world. It's laid off 85 % of its people and its call centers and it's closing its stores using AI to do this from I think 15 ,000 down to 6 ,000. They're the first to move, but as that's the model, you're looking at major companies laying off the majority of their stuff. And this is the big story because within five years, we could end up with 40 % of the jobs in the United Kingdom disappearing. But the main thing to take away from the sound thing before we move on the final question is you've got to use these things all the time and learn their personalities.

53:53They're like bright graduate students who make mistakes, make stuff up bluff, but you have to learn what they're likely to bluff on, what they're not like to bluff on, how to check them, and what you must never do is what sounds doing, which is checking them against themselves. If you say to them, you lie, didn't you? They either sometimes say, oh, sorry, and they make up another lie or they say no, I didn't lie. So you really have to check it against the next thermal source. Here's a question that's coming quite good timing. Come in from Jason, which is what on earth has happened to the new European and why has it changed its name?

54:24Are you suddenly ashamed of Europe? No, the new European was started as an emotional spasm. Something must be done. I think what it does is it accepts that braces happened. We will continue as the new world, to be very anti -Brexit, calling out the lies, calling out the weak. You've accepted it. It's no more rage rage against the dying of the light. No, we are raging as a deny the light, but it's a fact. Brexit has happened. Okay. And added to which I think we've discovered that quite a lot of people who like the look of the new European don't pick it up on the new stands because they think it's just about Europe.

55:02And in fact, it's about, we've got, you know, we're right about China, about, well, we cover the world. So what's the new name of it? The new world. Are the new world? This is amazing. Do you know that's never ever been copyrighted. The new world. The new world has never been copyrighted. No via Zemlia. No, yeah. No, limo, develt. Right. Okay. So, so, so, so, no, no, we're still going to be there. Final question coming off brave new world is why do politicians always have people standing behind them in important speeches? Is this the recent thing? Surely it's a pretty risky strategy. Tell us about, well, we're having the rage rage speech.

55:35You were trying to act it out for me just before we came on. Well, she actually was making speech in what I think was a factory. And there was the back drop was with these workers. They were all male. Right. But the guy immediately behind her right shoulder sort of wet viral because he was basically pulling his face a lot, not in a kind of rude way. Yeah. But just a sort of, no, rolling his eyes and all that. And Keir Starman, Don Mono Week earlier, he did the defense for him in Glasgow with the defense workers. Yeah. And there was one guy there very tall, noticeably, when Keir to stay, did not clap.

56:16Right. Okay. So, I became rather obsessed with watching this non clapping guy. And then of course, when you saw the wider shot, the other thing is that if you were behind them, both of these speeches were delivered by AutoCute. Right. So, the other thing that happens is the people behind can see the AutoCute weird. So, it sort of gets rid of the magic. Wait, Rachel reads this gray oratory is actually written out in an AutoCute. Wow. I assume she was just repeating lines she'd memorized six months ago. I don't know if it's actually somebody's written the speech that she's reading. It's incredible.

56:52And I think anyway, so in front of the Keir Starman thing. Right. So, you've got the people in the background. And then when you had a shot from behind the whole thing, he was basically delivering the speech to like Chris Vaser, Beth Rigby. Right. Well, I like three people. Well, there wasn't much of an audience there. And I think that the idea of how you people behind used to show you got solidarity. Yeah. You know, the Irish politicians always have a chunk of people. But they usually use party supporters, right? You got to be a bit careful. Well, I remember Boris Johnson. You remember he launched his 2019 election campaign out of police academy with police officers behind him.

57:29One of them fainted. I do remember that. Fade it behind him. So generally, it doesn't go well. No, I thought that was bad as well, using a police academy as backdrop. Tony once did it. I remember once in Iraq, if fact, it was the day the Andrew Gilligan report on the BBC. And Tony was making a speech in Basra and the troops were all around him. So they were behind in front of him to the side. And he did this sort of big speech thanking them and, you know, and it was quite a good speech. And at the end of it, the silence, we discovered later that they'd been told not to applaud, not as an insults.

58:05But so is it not to be felt like when Trump does a speech, the troops, they're all thrown out in the air or you don't want to be put. You don't get into policies. So we sort of totally understood that. Yeah, I think maybe a real backdrop's better sometimes. Yeah, yeah. Then the ship workers, you should check out this guy though. He had such a, the Rachel Reeves guy had a really expressive face. The non -clapping guy in govern had a very quizzical, not impressed. I guess the anxiety is that if you don't have the people behind you, you look like a bit like you've got no mates and that you don't have any supporters.

58:41But you know, I think if you'd have had a, if you'd have had a killer, if it's a shipyard, you know, get the shipyard in the background. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. As long as the people look at them, they do look beyond the policy. As long as it's not the Titanic, which is what the Tories tend to put behind them. Rather than the Titanic, I think we should call it, all right? Bye -bye. Thank you.

59:04I'm Gordon Carrera and I'm David McCloskey. Together we're the co -host of another Gohanger show called The Rest Is Classified. Here's that clip we mentioned earlier on. When I look back on it now, you still see that, you know, there's plans, there's memorand, there's notifications, there's all these things, but they're never actually executed. They never actually kind of pull the trigger on anything, do they? I'm a little bit of two minds on this because I agree with you that the theme of this episode really is a series of missed opportunities to get Osama Bidladyn prior to 9 -11. Yeah, but we should also note that once Tenet and the CIA understand that Osama Bidladyn is coming for us, in particular after the East Africa bombings, there is a push to improve our collection and our understanding about Kaita pretty significantly.

1:00:02I mean, there's a bunch of human sources who get recruited in this period. There's a lot more technical collection. Alex Station is bifpped up to more than 40 people. There's a bunch of connections with foreign partners on Kaita that hadn't existed before. I mean, interestingly, there's a PDB, President Staley Brief, in December, December the 4th of 1998, which is titled, quote, Bin Laden preparing to hijack US aircraft and other attacks. Yeah. And so there's a lot of strategic warning. I think you could say about what Kaita is up to, and yet there's an inability, I think, to translate that into practical efforts and operations to stop these attacks and to stop Kaita from ultimately carrying out 9 -11.

1:00:48If you want to hear the full episode, listen to the rest is classified wherever you get your podcasts.