417. The Real JD Vance: America’s Next President? (Part 1)

0:00Thanks for listening to The Rest Is Politics. Sign up to The Rest Is Politics plus to enjoy ad -free listening and receive a weekly newsletter. Join our members' chat room again early access to live show tickets. Just go to TheRestIsPolitics .com. That's TheRestIsPolitics .com. If Donald Trump dropped it, this guy is automatically president. How has become what he's become from this backward? I'm sitting in the back of this police cruiser. They've just arrested my mom, the relief of having survived another day. This is a story about something which we don't often talk about in America, which is class.

0:33I came from a southern Ohio steel town and it's a town that's really struggling in a lot of ways. Trump, I think that he's leading the white working class to a very dark place. I'm a never -trump guy. I never liked him. But in the end, the main thing you need to understand about Gidey Gantz is, given the choice between his intellectual statements and power, he chooses power every time. I was wrong about Donald Trump. Sundry, this is an evolution. Past comments that you've made. You said, idiot, if you voted for him, might be America's Hitler. This is where this other side of his personality comes from.

1:08He's reversing to blame anger. We're seeing migrants kidnap our dogs and cats. They're eating the dogs. I think the election was stolen from Trump. We're effectively run in this country by a bunch of childless cat ladies. He needs to prove absolute love. And what I worry about is the threat from within. Have you said thank you what? You are part of the Gidey Bunch story. A Twitter beef I didn't expect to see this week. Rory Stewart, lotters clever as he thinks. So Gidey bets. This was the final destruction of the centrist dad's. His Gidey Bunch said, boss me. But there's a bigger story, which is the story about this whole, or right movement.

1:50Vance does not exist really without teal, either financially or politically. Because this guy believes that America should be led by a monarch, which of course Trump leaves as well. He sees him, frankly, as a future king, because his vance can tell the story of America. And in doing so, he crosses the cast into a whole new vision of the world at the central which is not democracy. But the CEO, the authoritarian, the monarch.

2:30Hi there, Alistair here. Now, as we said in yesterday's question time episode, we are doing finally our first ever mini series for members of the rest of his politics plus. And it's all about that JD Vance. That's right. And it's really great stuff. I really enjoyed putting it together. It's almost us making a sort of mini documentary on JD Vance. If you'd like to hear the first episode right now, just head to the rest of this politics .com to join the rest of this politics plus where you'll find our cheapest rates. New episodes of our series will be dropping every Friday morning for members. We really enjoyed recording the series.

3:06It charts JD Vance's very humble beginnings in the Appalachians, tracks his career and his influences all the way up to his role as vice president, where he calls out European leaders in Munich and chastises Zalensky in the Oval Office and tries to work out how to stay in with Donald Trump. Here's a clip. Hope you enjoy it.

3:30Vance is many things, many, many things for which we will be profoundly critical. But he's also smart. I mean, he's a very clever person. And he writes very elegantly. What we'll get on to that. But he has these very interesting ideas. And for British listeners, there's some interesting parallels. He's got some echoes with figures like Dominic Cummings and other people actually within the new right movement and conservative party that we can talk about a little bit later. In American politics, as you said, he's part of this amazing development of on the one hand conservative Catholicism. He calls himself a baby Catholic.

4:13He's going to be born again Catholic.

4:18But he's also got this whole other thing, whole economic theory of the world, whole political theory of the world. And he spouts it out with the most incredible, as I've begun a bit like Dominic, as the most unbelievable intellectual references. He's like referring to St. Augustine. He's reading relatively obscure hackers and coders from Silicon Valley. He worships the man called Peter Tiel. So it's a really good route at a moment where liberal democracy, the sort of centrist politics that you and I believe in and grew up in is cracking. Here is somebody suggesting what some of the alternative ideas out there might be.

5:01And we'll get a chance to look into whether they actually stack up how much they contradict. And also he's having to ride this Trumpian horse and stay close to him. So he is on lots of levels of very interesting character. So let's go right back to the beginning. He was born August the 2nd 1984. His name was James Donald Bowman. And I'm not sure how much I trust somebody who changes their name quite as regularly as this guy does. But there are reasons why he changes his name. That relates to his mother who gets through men at a very, very, very, very speedy rate. I think he has five marriages, plenty of blocs in between.

5:42And he says that he actually there's one very moving part of the book where he says that, you know, I hated school, but I hated home even more. And the worst thing about it was this revolving door of so -called father figures. On this for a second, there are many different things you can talk about in J .Van's background. And we'll get on to talk about what it means to be Scott Irish, what Ohio and Kentucky were like, what the opioid crisis was like. But let's start just with what you've said with the mother and the different men and drug addiction. One thing that people have said about Hilbert E.

6:11L .T. when they're being critical is that it plays a little bit too much to stereotypes about what in the US would be called welfare queens. So some American commentators reading this says this basically portrays a world of every conservative prejudice about people living on welfare. Single parent families, drug abuse, unemployment, multiple parents, poor educational performance, and a community that's seems to be in the book almost opting out. I mean, how did you read? How did he analyse this kind of poverty, this kind of world? Well, of course, now that he is what he's become, it's kind of hard to genuinely to work through it without knowing him really well, which neither of us do.

6:57I mean, you wrote this book when he was 31. So at that stage, not even in politics, but you read it. Now that he is a politician, you kind of think, oh, I can see why he wrote this book. But very few publishers are going to take a memoir from a 31 -year -old who hasn't done much. It had to be very well written, which is it had to be a really interesting story, which it is, and it had to say something deeper about America, which it does. I have a very strong sense, I should say, page 146 to page 148. It's almost like you deserve the life you've got for the choices that you make. So in that part of the book, he's almost saying, and this is quite important for his politics, and he makes this point at other points in his life, that there are two ways of looking at the community he grew up in.

7:44One of them is the conservative view, which is it's therefore, because then pull themselves up by their bootstraps and you get on their bikes. And then there's the liberal view which is that they're completely victims of their economic and social circumstances. And he's sometimes says he doesn't like either view, but give us a bit of a read. Well, I think he's very much of that form well, so he talks about living in the world of truly irrational behavior. We spend our way into the poor house. We buy giant TVs and iPads. Our children wear nice clothes, thanks to high interest credit cards. We purchase homes we don't need refinance of the spending money, then declare bankruptcy, leaving the houses full of garbage, thrift is inimical to our being.

8:23We spend to pretend that we're upper class. And when the dust clears, when bankruptcy hips are a family member, bells is out of our stupidity. There's nothing left over, nothing for tuition, no investment to grow, our wealth, no rainy day fund. We know we shouldn't spend like this. Sometimes we've used ourselves up, we do it anyway. And then he goes on and he goes on and on and on like this. And eventually he says we talk about the value of hard work, but we tell ourselves the reason we're not working is some perceived unfairness. Obama shut down the coal mines or all the jobs went to the Chinese.

8:51These are the lies we tell ourselves to solve the cognitive distance, the broken connection between the world we see and the values we preach. Now that is diametrically opposed to what he's saying now, it's a sort of Trump, you know, blame the Chinese, blame Flint and blame Obama, blame globalization, et cetera. And there's a lot of that in the book. Well, so it's, let's just sit with it for a second. So what's it? What actually is your sense of his background? I mean, we've interviewed Antler Rayner, the British Deputy Prime Minister, who comes from a very, very extreme example of deprivation.

9:23I say it's on a level. Okay, at least. Okay. And just remind us of Central Rayner, that's that's a mother who had serious learning difficulties struggling to get food on the table. Not having a bath for a week. Lots of unrequited generations and the family traveling families. Yeah. I would say that as it comes over in the book and you know, querying whether he's exaggerated, that has been said, I've got no but what comes over the book is a level of dysfunction and violence. And you almost, I mean, you have to hand it to him, how he has become what he's become coming from this background. So just to go back to his name, he starts off with one name, James Donald, the Bowman name then goes because when his mum remarries, his dad is her second husband, the third husband when she marries him, they change their name.

10:21So he becomes John David Hamel because she didn't want Donald, this is quite a relic given the the applause of Donald in his life, but Donald was the name of his real dad and she didn't want any reference to him at all. And Donald's name is real dad. That's quite interesting too. I don't know. There we go. There we go. So Don Bowman, he disappears and gives him up for adoption. He's real dad. He later forms a relationship with him, which is really interesting and it sort of upsets them over there. That's the second name. And then the third, what happens is that she becomes so troubled, so violent, so unpredictable.

10:57And she almost kills herself. She almost kills him. So she tries to kill him. Right. He goes into this complete stranger's house, sort of screaming, help me help me. My mum's trying to kill me. And she calls the police. And she also calls what we, the stranger calls the police, the strange calls the police. Then what happens is mum are on papar, he calls his grandparents, they basically take him over. And Maymoreth is the woman that he describes as having a Bible and whatever it is 24 guns in the house. She carries a gun. Right. She has shot people. The dad is an alcoholic. The grandfather is an alcoholic.

11:33I think he eventually stopped drinking quite violent again. There's a lot of violence in the book. There's one scene where he's describing being in the car with his mother, his sister and his grandmother. And the mother is driving while she's basically hitting the kids. Right. Because of something that's done to certain. And then the mother, the grandmother, is hitting her. Right. So you have this sense of real violence. The other thing that's really interesting about the thing about when his mum tried to kill him in a car. Yep. And he got out and run off. Is that he then is very, very open about the fact that he lied in court to protect his mother, to protect his mother.

12:10And actually dotted through the book, there's quite a lot of, I told this, I said this when it wasn't true. I lied about this. I lied about that. But it's a level of dysfunction that is, you will certainly know people through your constituency work. And I met people who, but this is on a scale. And of course, what he says is this was not abnormal. There were worse off families. There were poorer families. There were more dysfunctional families. And actually, when he did have his settled time with his grandparents, and particularly the mother or the grandmother, he sort of, that's when he settled down.

12:41Well, it has a couple of points that we can move on to here. And one of them is to remind people at a moment where we're all obsessed with American growth. Mario Draghi has just written a European Union report. What can we learn from the US, all my friends who work in business and finance are pointing out that the European Union economy was the same size as the US economy 10 years ago. Now the US economy's 50 % bigger that the US is a quarter of the world economy. It's got the most productive, innovative firms in the world. It's productivity is unbelievable. And yes, it's got this going on. I would argue much, much more of this type of extreme rural dysfunction poverty than anything that we have in the United Kingdom.

13:20And I'm first of the scale. Part scale. Partly also, there's not a proper welfare state. There's not proper health provision. And that leads me on my second point, which is his mother is partly caught up in drugs. And like many, many people in rural communities in the United States caught up in opioids. And this matters again because you know, what Trump's doing on tariffs. He's talking about fentanyl and fentanyl as one of these opioids. So that that's the story. Maybe we can get into it a little bit because this is maybe the most dramatic example. There's a wonderful, wonderful book on this whole subject, which really brings these communities to light.

13:54It's of course this incredible book by Anne Case and the wonderful Scottish academic Angus and death to despair. This book really looks at the way in which life expectancy is dropping in the most astonishing way. Health indicators are dropping in a way that just doesn't make any sense in the modern world because of this incredible combination of unemployment, opioid crisis and hopelessness. Both the criminal conspiracy by the manufacturers and the sellers of these opioids. Exactly. And the doctors who work with them, but also the impact on these communities. Yeah. And it doesn't happen in Britain.

14:33And it's very interesting because that is to do with and sometimes politics matters and it really matters with things like opioid crisis. Legislation is different in Britain. What doctors can do in different, what insurance does is different in Britain. The NHS is different in Britain. And all of that means that we don't have anything like this scale. But part of the scale, so he comes from this part, this sort of known as appellation, which is sort of, you know, Georgia and Alabama in the south right up as far as a little bit of New York. And a big part of the industrial success story of America down the years, but then really badly hit by globalization and loads and loads of factory shuttries movie and then shutting down jobs going to China.

15:12And the point he makes is that it became very, very, very difficult working class people to find work. And the only way you could really find work is to get a college degree and the education system wasn't working. So I think you're right that the the American system did not lend itself to helping these people recover from these global shocks. I mean, that the scale of the drug stuff is just, you know, the way he writes about it, just, he just takes it for granted that everybody's pretty much at it. And by the way, by the end of it, she, I think now is 10 years sober, but she was on heroin for quite a while.

15:45The other thing that comes through, I'd love to know and to talk to about his relationship with his understanding of addiction. You obviously have to live with it, but my sense is that he finds it. He talks to some point about, you know, I read all these garbage books about addiction. And, you know, I think even there he's got a little bit of, you know, it's a little bit of pull yourself together.

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