429. Question Time: Gaza, Genocide, and Global Hypocrisy

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1:31Welcome to the rest of politics question time with me, Rory Stewart. And with me, Alistair Campbell. So, Alistair, most of our listeners, I think, will have picked up on the fact that last week we did a very, very big focus on Israel Gaza, in which you came out and said that after a lot of very difficult saw, you had concluded that what Israel was doing in Gaza was genocide. And as you can imagine, that has provoked a huge range of responses from people saying, congratulations Alistair, well done, that took courage, that was the right thing to do to people saying why you so late on the bandwagon, you should have said that two years ago to people saying, this is outrageous, how dare you say that is genocide.

2:18So, I just want to begin with that because I think it's a, it is the big I guess question of our time. And I wonder what sort of response you'd got over the last week. A lot of it for sure, both on social media, people getting contact directly with the podcast, also in the numbers. I mean, it was a very widely shared episode. I'll also just going around the place. And even though I will not give any indication to this woman's identity, because she said, I really don't want to be identified, but including out walking the dog one day, beating somebody who lives near us, who is Jewish, works in and giving it away a kind of Israeli context, does it work?

3:04And who said that she felt that the debate generally about Israel Gaza had been made her very anxious, very scared times that anti -Semitism was becoming a real thing. But she felt that what we had said was true. And she said that I just think it is indefensible. What is going on is indefensible. I cannot find a way to defend it. She went on to say the reason why I don't want to be remotely identified is because she said, I haven't yet reached that point where I feel I can say that because of the world that she's in. And just from a personal perspective, I do feel that we've been sort of, I think those who said, you know, what's kept you, kind of got a point, I do feel I've been holding back out of desire to be fair.

3:55But I think it's very hard. I've written a huge piece in the new world this week explaining why eventually I felt pushed towards it. And I think actually it's this thing. I feel it's impossible to be fair to an organization or in this case a government that is being so blatantly unfair to the other side that we're trying to be trying to be fair to. And then the other thing that was really interesting was how many of the, one of them came through you actually, how many of the sort of organizations directly involved in this got involved to say I had two, one was Metzano Salford Frontier who wrote to me directly and another wrote to you pointing out that yes, we had focused on article two of the genocide convention.

4:42But article one is very, very relevant to other countries including Britain. And I'll just read it. The contracting parties that's basically anybody who signs up to the genocide convention confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish. Now the point that your friend was making is that the courts exist to punish genocide. But the duty to prevent it is the duty that's on all states, not just any states that may be involved. That comes first. And that's why it's important to see genocide not as a single event but as a process.

5:29And alongside that, so Metzano Salford Frontier, they sent me a letter that they sent to Keir Starmer and to David Lamy. And it begins, genocide is being committed in Gaza and the UK government is complicit. And it goes on in those terms. So look, it provoked a very, very big response. I'm glad that I said it. I'm glad that we had the debate that we did. But I accept that there are some people who are very upset by it and other people who basically was saying what kept you. There's an email that you shared with me which was sent sent to you and then forwarded on to me. So I'm a reasonably middle of the road Jewish Londoner.

6:09And then he goes on essentially to make the arguments against what we said in our position. So let me just put the case which this man who describes himself as a reasonably middle of the road Jewish Londoner says. So he says that he doesn't in any way support Ben Giveran Smotridge. He says these people, this is the finance minister and security minister, don't never will dictate Israeli policy or the government. Otherwise, it might have been a genocide. Then he says if Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza, this would have been done. It doesn't to never would. You actually know that. Then he says we didn't mention the hostages.

6:54Then he says this is a war of self -defense, innocence of dying because we're trying to neutralize the silence and they're fighting within the midst of their own civilian population. Then he says and this is I think a quite central to the whole thing. Israel is the only insurance policy. Me and my family and friends have ahead of the inevitable knock on my door to remind me there is no place for Jews anymore in Britain. It's coming. And the oxygen that you give to this Jew hatred brings that moment even closer. And then he finishes by saying, final thing, I'm described all the way through this as the arabist.

7:37Here is the question, what would you have done? What would you do now? All you have is irony, sneering at attempts that spin, be constructive, suggest way forward. You never have since October the fence. And I'd venture to say you never will. And then he says, let's hope no one's removed from Gaza unless they choose to leave. Let's us hope the disinterest in the nation's region help out. But when you two glibly talk for prospect for a two -state solution, you have to ask yourself would any population, government or nation want to give statehood to a people sworn to your destruction and intended every opportunity to act on that oath would you?

8:16So essentially what he's saying, this is I just before you answer. This is the criticism that I've received, for example, from the headrabbi of the biggest synagogue in Sydney who delivered an entire speech accusing me of anti -Semitism, which was then reprinted in the Australian edition of the financial times. And essentially what he's saying to me is I'm anti -Semitic because I'm holding Israel to higher standards than I would hold anyone else to. I'm expecting them to show restraint, turn the other cheek, whereas we all know that if we'd been in the same situation, we would have killed far more people and that my anti -Semitism is to demand that Israel behaves better than it would be reasonable to demand anyone else behave.

9:02Over to you. How did the guy describe himself a reasonable middle of the road to the Jewish land? The middle of the road, yeah. I sent you that one, but I could have sent you the many others that you sent me in the past. He's very angry about the way that we talk about us. Without naming him, he's somebody who was a friend of yours or just a colleague of yours? No, not a friend. I'm not entirely sure. I know terribly well, but somebody that I think is probably a regular listener who quite likes the way we talk about most things and would probably in most circumstances find us pretty bearable, but on this finds us increasingly unbearable.

9:36But I'm afraid I think this comes from the perspective. Just to give you one example there, he talks about how could you possibly want to deal with this essentially saying they all want to wipe us out? Well, yes, Hamas do. But that, again, that takes me to a point that's been made the whole way through. This is the point that Ben Gavir and Smotrich make. By the way, how can you say that these guys don't have an influence upon the comfort direction when they are the government direction? These are the two people who have most driven Netanyahu to the place where maybe it's where Netanyahu is wanted to be, but the political position he finds himself in has been driven by them.

10:19But the fact is that there are a lot of people in Gaza who hate Hamas. My point is that they've been dehumanized. I'm afraid I think he's let a dehumanized, dehumanized, as well. To the point was there is seen as this homogenous whole. And let me try to answer him. He says, what would you have done? Definitely. Well, you do not do what Israel has done in Gaza. It is ethically apparent. It is involved destroying every hospital in the place, killing enormous numbers of doctors and healthcare workers and doctors are protected in a national law. And it has not achieved anything sensible. It hasn't got the hostages home.

11:05It hasn't eliminated the Hamas leadership. So it's a military catastrophe as well as a moral catastrophe. And what would you do differently? Well, you would act with much more restraint, much more proportionality. You would target much more carefully. You cannot possibly consider killing what it is, 50, 58 ,000 people as being a reasonable response to this horrible terrorist attack, which was experienced on October 7th. It isn't. It is not proportional. It's not reasonable. And this question of what would you have done differently? Not that. Look at how Britain responded to 777. And I would go further.

11:46I do not think that the American response to 911 was a reasonable proportionate either. In the end, that was madness. What unfilled in Afghanistan and Iraq, this didn't work out. Or look at how India and Pakistan conducted their negotiations and their diplomacy with military activity recent weeks as well. No, I think the other thing, where I've come from. And I think it's difficult to get this is where I think people who have always loathe Netanyahu. And I've never been a fan of Netanyahu, but I've always sort of tried to give them a little bit the benefit of the doubt because he's such a consequential politician in one of the most important regions in the world.

12:24But where I think it becomes intolerable is that I think a lot of these decisions are made in the context of politics and political survival. So what would I have done? And I think we did say this at the time said, look, there is going to have to be some sort of response. There's no doubt about that. They will make a response. They will feel not least for their own public opinion. They have to show one they're going to do everything they get the hostages back. And two, they're going to strike against the people that they see as being responsible for this. But they've gone way, way, way beyond that.

13:01The other thing I would have done would have been to understand that soft power means something and it means something even when and maybe even especially when you're in the exercise of hard power by which I mean Netanyahu and the Israeli government by the strategy they pursued, they've done enormous damage to their outstanding reputation around the world. And I would say you say that we make Jews lives more more dangerous. Have a look. We'll put it in the newsletter, but there's this incredible. I don't even know where it was, but it's the American Jewish actor, Mandy Potynkin, who he's so angry and he's so angry.

13:47And his main point is that Netanyahu is all around the world because his actions are creating this sort of horrible sense of anger. And I still look, I mean, I still will try to always speak up against Hamas, always speak up for the hostages, always speak up. And of course, this guy says we don't mention the hostages. I mean, there is something formulaic I think about sometimes, by the way, people go back and say, of course, I have to say this, of course, I have to say that. We know that the hostages shaking is horrible and they're not. But the fact is that some of them who are now dead could have been kept alive if at various points down the track Netanyahu had actually tried to get them out at a time when deals could have been done, which I suspected didn't want to do because the military strategy took precedence.

14:46And there's another fundamental problem in this negotiation, which is that I was speaking to somebody who's very, very senior in Israeli national security, very close to Netanyahu, who said to me, of course, when the hostages returned, we will then have no reason not to wipe Gaza off the face of the earth. So how are you supposed to get a deal together when Hamas feels the hostages are there one guarantee on some form of restraint by the Israelis? So it's the only thing that's holding the Israelis back from going even further. Why would they honestly return the remaining hostages if the sense they get is that when they return those remaining hostages, Netanyahu will just radically increase and redouble his efforts to wipe them all out.

15:36Why would they do that? And now the only reason they would do that presumably is if there was a ceasefire deal where the US was making it so clear in its pressure on Netanyahu that they really trusted that Netanyahu would agree not to redouble assaults, but he's not going to do that. So I'd like to actually be interesting if your friend can write back. Why, what does he think is going to happen here? I mean, why does he think that what Netanyahu is doing is going to increase the chance the hostages coming back rather than just almost guaranteeing that the final hostages won't be returned? Yeah, or increase the long -term reputation and strength of Israel.

16:20And I suspect that you can also say, by the way, if he wants us to say who he is, I don't mind if he doesn't, but and listen, we welcome people saying the things they say. Not to be too defensive, but I've just sort of been reflecting on this having been attacked in this way by the senior rabbi in Australia, who I don't know, but also how incredibly outspoken the chief rabbi in Britain has also been, and how open he's been about the fact that his own son is serving in the IDF in Gaza. And I suppose this is always the question, isn't it, where the line is between religion and politics, where the line is between your Jewish identity and your support for the Israeli government?

17:04But listen, Roy, we talked last week about this heredias plant, put 600 ,000 Palestinians in a so -called humanitarian city. Now, if you read the following Israeli media, and the IDF were opposed to this plant, there are reservists out saying, this is inhumane and illegal, and we want nothing to do with it. The Lieutenant General, who's in sort of chief of defense staff, part of the chief of defense staff team, he was interviewed and he said, this is not part of our military plan, which I think is a sort of military way of saying, we're not very happy about this. And, you know, while we're on the sort of documents, and you know, the reason you argued on the main podcast against Trump and his Nobel Peace Prize is because by undermining institutions and statutes and conventions he's making the world less safe, let me just give you article seven of the Rome statute on crimes against humanity.

18:05Now, it sets out there are 11 crimes against humanity, quotes, when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population with knowledge of the attack. A number four is the most relevant to this plan, which Ehud Al -Mert, former Prime Minister, who we interview a leading a few months ago, he has equates to a concentration camp. A number four is deportation or forcible transfer of population. And when you go down into what that means, they say it means forced displacement of the person's concerned by expulsion or other coercive acts from the area in which they are lawfully present without grounds permitted under international law.

18:54Well, he's don't, I mean, they're even, you know, the, the, the bengueviers are smotries, they're saying, well, this, this is the plan. And it's sort of to get them in there and then sort of somehow shovel them off into, into Egypt. So I think that, you know, I just, I just don't see how you can defend that on any level. Can I come in just before we go to the break? A couple of quite uncomfortable questions. So Sarah L who's a trip plus member from Essex, Israel continues to make tragic errors in the prosecution of its war and Gaza. This latest attack on children queuing for water should surely elicit a stronger response from the UK government.

19:32I feel helpless in the face of this injustice. What can members of the public do in response to our governments of parent acquiescence and its subservience to the US? Do you want to have a go at that? Then I've got another one. Yeah, so just, let's just take this plan. So Hamish Faulkner, who's the Foreign Office Minister for the Middle East, he has actually come out very strongly against it. But in that letter that I receive from the Med San San Froncero Center to Kierstadman and David Lamy, at several points in this letter where they point out where they've been asking for the British government to call out certain activities over the whole period of this thing, they keep saying we did not get a reply.

20:15That's just not on. Med San San Froncero, whatever you think of it, it is a really serious, reputable humanitarian organisation whose voice I think should be heard when you're talking about something like what's going on here. And I do feel that the, I think you said, I think you said last week, David Lamy made blistering speech and we've had two or three blistering speeches. But ultimately, I think this is one of those situations where people are turning away from it. At a time when actually we should be turning into it much, much more. So I think that when the government speak, they sometimes say, what I would say, say the right things, but not necessarily in a way that is going to get noticed by Trump, by Netanyahu and by Israeli public opinion.

21:06Okay, well, here's the last question then, Nestor and Amin. And this is even more uncomfortable. Well, thank you both for finding the right words to describe the horrors of what's going on in Gaza. But I can't help feeling that you are both less than frank when discussing the UK's government's reluctance to go harder on Israel. You claim you don't understand why the UK is continuing to support Israel militarily, but surely from both your positions, you know a bit more than that. Can you please talk a bit about the role of the lobbying Israel does in the UK, how it functions and why so many empires get sacked into it?

21:40Now, this is really awkward because this touches on a big anti -Semitic trope, which is the idea that Jewish money is somehow controlling politics. And it's actually interesting. I'm going to very struck us talking to some of my conservative friends who are beginning to speak out powerfully against what's happening in Gaza. But again, whenever I said to them, why do you think the conservative party continues to support Israel so strongly? They keep saying, I don't know. And I made the same challenge at Nestor and made, which is, well, what do you mean you don't know? You've been in politics all your life, surely you can have an educated guess on why they keep doing it.

22:15What is your reason on why you think the government keeps supporting Israel? Well, I'm just going to give you a couple of people. I hope they don't mind me doing this, but two of the people who sent me very, very nice messages of support and very broad agreement were Michael Levy, who was the Jewish chief fundraiser for Labour under Tony Blair and his son Daniel, who's a, I think, amazing young guy who has actually been an Israeli peace negotiator in different times, who I think have both gone from positions of being broadly supportive of Israel and the broadest possible context, but to a place where they cannot support the current actions of the current Israeli government.

22:59So I think that from the government's perspective, I suspect a lot, I think a lot of it is probably about Trump. I think it's just sort of, you know, they're feeling maybe they don't quite have the influence that they would like to have with directly with Netanyahu. That's been a deliberate thing because Netanyahu cuts them out and Trump cuts them out in terms of saying, you know, we're the big strongman leaders, we're going to sort this out. And I guess the other thing is it's because they've had their under so many, assault on so many other fronts, but I think that, like I said earlier, I think they say the right things from time to time, but it's the calling out that I think is needed more.

23:42And I talked today for today, you know, we're recording this on Monday. So we've got this report today from the BBC about the previous documentary, the one where it turned out to be fronted by somebody who was a child of somebody who was fairly senior in Hamasson. That was known to the documentary makers, but it wasn't made clear to the public. And fair enough, Lisa Nandley as the culture secretary has called out that out. And the reporter said it was mistake and dad, dad, dad, but I'm not aware of similar complaints, which I have what I think was the farm or egregious position in relation to the documentary that the BBC wouldn't even show.

24:20Look, I know it's the question of there said, you know, of course, you must have an educated guess. That's the best I can do because deep down, I don't really know. I don't really know where I grew with you. I don't buy this idea that is because you know, rich Jewish donors give lots of money to political parties. I just don't buy that at all. One of the richest who has given money for many, many years to the Labour Party, as I say, was one of the first people on the phone saying, you know, well done for speaking up about it. And I suggest on this BBC report, a couple of quick things. Number one, they are pushing for an impartiality clause.

24:55So they're saying that all narrators have to be shown to be completely impartial in their social media. But it clearly is applied to Palestinians, but not to people who are very pro the Israeli government. The bureau on the grounds in Israel, the Middle East online editor, their social media accounts are frequently full of very pro Israeli government statements. But that isn't taken into account. They're allowed absolutely to report. It appears to be the other side is being held to a different set of standards. The second thing is around the linguistic point. Palestinians, when they refer to Israelis, use the word Yehudi, which originally means Jew.

25:35And there is a big push now, which the BBC has now accepted to translate this word as Jew rather than Israeli. Now this is ready matters, because what it means is that when Palestinians are making comments that are criticisms of Israelis, right? In the context of Israel and Palestine, it can be portrayed as criticisms of Jews in general and anti -Semitism. And this is completely failing to understand the cultural linguistic context in which people are using those words. Now these seem like small things, but this is basically part of a prolonged campaign against the BBC by various very aggressive pro -Israeli lobby groups, which have frightened the BBC into taking a position where they're being much less brave and defending their journalists and their objectivity on this issue, than they are in almost anything else.

26:24Another big point, which I think you've made in the past, but I want to circumfice, is this fight against anti -Semitism, the Labour Party, and trying to distance themselves from Jeremy Corbyn. I mean, I felt that in our infu on leading with Gabriella Tallah, the former Prime Minister of France, who didn't really want to be drawn in criticism of Israel, very much said why I don't really have a view on that, but kept coming back to anti -Semitism in France. And so domestic politics seems to drive people who were on the left in the case of Tallah, summit of feel that the main thing they need to be talking about is domestic anti -Semitism, not the actions of Israel.

27:02I think there is definitely, that is an element within this, and I think that was particularly relevant in the early days, post -October 7th, when Israel, we said on the very first podcast, Israel's response is, you know, I really fear for what they're going to do to the people in Gaza. I mean, it's been way worse than anything I said, but I think at that point, Labour's messaging was driven partly by a genuine sense of solidarity at, you know, a country that's under such attack, right to exist, Israel's right to exist, which they keep emphasizing, which is fair enough, hostages, but I think a part of it was that they were just, they were slightly in a defensive crowd, because they're thinking people are going to be looking for the slightest sign that Labour is quotes anti -Semitic, because of all the rouse that we've had under the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn.

27:52And meanwhile, I think Israel has deliberately as part of its strategy, got to a place where it feels comfortable in making the allegation of anti -Semitism against anybody who criticises the Israeli government. And that's, I think, part of the badness that we're now dealing with. Anyway, thank you to everybody who took the trouble to listen. Shall we take a break? Let's take a quick break and we'll come back after the break.