432. Trump, Starmer, and Gaza: Is The Tide Turning Against Israel?

26:36And it was because night and after night it was on the television screens in American households with the snipers in Sarajevo. And that's what changes, you know, this is your field. This is how communications campaigns work. And as one member of Congress said to me yesterday, the trouble is we're only seeing what we see. The Israelis aren't letting international journalists in there and there's a heartbreaking statement from the AFP about how their journalists are starving. So guess how many more photographs potentially there might be and how many more people are in this position, children are in this position?

27:10I think that's what it's going to be. It has to break through for Trump. It has to bake through visually and it has to feel personal. It can't be somebody going to him saying this is a policy around nutrition paste and nutritionist and here's the data. Yeah, I can must give a shout out. I've already mentioned Jeremy Bohn, the interview that he did with the guy, the special forces guy. Jeremy Bohn did a really interesting piece last night because I think he's a, you know, he's a really remarkable journalist, Jeremy. And he was, you know, these air drops. So the Jordanians and the Emirates are doing some of these air drops and Britain has involved in that as well.

27:50So Jeremy was on the plane that was doing the air drop. And it would have been so easy and so tempting for him to have done, you know, a piece to camera hanging out into the air and sort of watching this to go by and here we go, help us on its way, et cetera. Instead of which, he did a very, very measured report. He used the word that you used earlier saying, there's something performative about this. You'll seem to be doing something and that's good, but actually it's not really going to address the problem. That's this whole plane only has as much as you could put into one lorry and there are these dozens of trucks that are waiting to get in, say they can't get in because of bureaucratic and security obstruction.

28:32But he then made the point, he stood by the windows in planes and he stood by them, they were covered. Why were they covered because the Israelis had said they did not want any filming from the air of Gaza. And Jeremy Bowen described what he saw looking out of the window. It was really hard to say because television, the trubbers, you say, it's all about pictures. And he was describing what he couldn't show you. And he said, they don't want us to see what's happening on the ground and they don't want us to see it from above either. And he was saying, these are places that I know, places that I've been to and it is utterly raised to the ground and it's a horrific thing.

29:10And I thought that was a really powerful way because when you talk there about Trump and pictures, am I being too Machiavellian in thinking that is one of the reasons why Israel does not allow foreign media into Gaza? You know, there's power to me things, well they don't allow them because they don't want us to see what they get up to. And of course in war all sorts of stuff happens, you don't necessarily want to see. But I wonder whether actually is thinking, you know, down the track, so we're going to be about the pictures and if Trump's sitting there and he doesn't like what he sees, then we're under great pressure.

29:44Yeah, I mean, it's a, when you phrase it like that, I don't think it's just Donald Trump. I do think Netanyahu doesn't want anyone to see the level of starvation that there is in Gaza at the moment. And we know that they've been playing footsy, opening the border up, shutting the border down, opening the border up, allowing a couple of trucks in, not allowing trucks in. So the government's own policy to fixing this has been completely inadequate. And I think they realize that if anybody sees the pictures, there is some, anybody in the outside world sees those pictures, the risk to them on having to open up those border and allow those trucks in.

30:24And then for Netanyahu to have to respond, as Ben Givi has said this week, you know, this is just a hoax by her mass. We're just, if we allow more aid in, we're just capitulating and giving in to her mass. And he doesn't want that, right? He doesn't want anyone to see it. But I'm sure, I mean, look, Netanyahu has read Trump very well. He has, he brought him along with the Iranian strikes by having a success of his own that Trump then wanted to be part of. And in this position, it could, it could well be, that when he doesn't want people to see those photographs, the person he doesn't want to see those photographs is Donald Trump.

31:00Final point interview I saw with Gai Kool, Dr. Ahmed Al -Fara, head of P .G. Attrics and Maternity Services at NASA Medical Complex in Cohen, Unis. He said there is not a single viable can of infant formula left in Gaza. And he said some of the cases we're seeing resemble what humanity saw in ancient times. And he said that there are the consequences here for entire generation, including those who survived the immediate crisis. So I guess we all have to hope it does stay on the American front pages. Can I just ask you, though, something Aleister? Because you raised to me last week this idea that international institutions have been degraded and that was a strategy and that has left the response inadequate.

31:45And I think that's right. But isn't there more that Europe could be doing that the UK could be doing without Donald Trump in this situation? Or are you right that we really are dependent on this one guy whose positions can be a little Maccurial when it comes to policy? I mean, are there things that Europe could push Israel on further? Definitely, definitely. And I think actually we've all got media and politics. We've all got far too sucked into playing Trump's game. Very interesting example. We're going to talk about this after the break, but I'll just say this now about his meeting with Ursula von der Leyen.

32:25When Trump sat there and said, we've given $60 million and nobody's thanked us and nobody else has given anything, she could actually, to my mind, should have said, hold on a minute, let me give you the facts about how much Europe has been putting in to support this. But where you're absolutely right, I think is that Netanyahu's may feel is in a position where what Britain says doesn't matter what France says doesn't matter what Japan says doesn't matter what Germany says doesn't matter But I think they were impacted by that foreign minister statement didn't change their view But they didn't like it when 28 foreign ministers came together Australia, Japan, South Korea, most of Europe came together Germany accepted and said this is an outrage, this has to stop.

33:12These things I think you have to keep doing them again and again and again. And I think we far too much all of us bought into the idea that Trump is the only guy that can move this. Because if you are reliant upon Trump, you're basically accepting the international order has failed. The international institutions don't work. The international institutions, I feel really sorry for in this context, are the aid agencies who are desperate to try to help and they just can't operate in the way that they should. And maybe final word from the guy who's, and I must speak to him, so as I can say to Jeremy, how do I pronounce your name?

33:49So Jeremy K, he made the point, he actually did another thread. He said that Gaza is not in crisis because it's somehow uniquely more complicated than and other conflict zones. He said he's been involved in the delivery of aid to places like Yemen, the DRC, to Tigray, to Iraq, to Sudan, is always difficult. But we have not really seen that much in the way of famine for some time, Sudan, Somalia, then you go back to others. We're now seeing a famine, he argues, because of unprecedented obstruction of aid by the Israeli government. Now, know the Israeli government might like to hear that, but this is somebody who is expertise and who's opinion I trust on these issues.

34:37And I honestly think the Israelis to come out and say, there is no famine. It's all down to Hamas. The food is there. I mean, you know, get real. You do not help your cause by industrial scale lying about what's actually happening. So should we take a break? Let's take a break. And then we'll come back and find out why you think Switzerland is a better country than Scotland? Well, that will take a while, but it's very clear. Speak soon.

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35:55So it's not about fixing you, but it's about hearing yourself clearly Maybe for the first time so talk it out with better help our listeners get 10 % off their first month at betterhelp .com slash rest politics. That's better H. E. L. P. dot com slash rest politics

36:18Welcome back to the Restless Politics UK. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, sorry. That sounds weird. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, cattie. The restless politics US. No, no, cattie. The restless politics. Correct. So I try you to call me out on this, because when I'm on television in America, they started introducing me as the restless politics US. And it ended up as the restless politics us, the rest is politicus, which actually was the best. I thought that was quite good. So then I realized these poor morning show hosts, I was just asking them one thing too many and in the end They stopped using the name of the podcast at all and so I thought well, we'll just make it easy for them It's six in the morning poor guys It'll be the rest is politics and I do realize I have I should you should have patented the name or something or you could sue me for you know taking over your title or something like that But anyway, I apologize.

37:10It's fine But I thought the rest is politicus was quite good It's a nice erudite feel kind of felt very Latin Somebody else could go for that. No, but I think this is the rest of politics. We don't need to say what country we're from. And also because you actually do the whole world a lot more. So this is the rest of politics of the world. Anyway, welcome back guys. We're going to talk about Donald Trump, who has been up in Scotland this week, meeting the Europeans and meeting the British Prime Minister, Kirstaama, in these, what I think, were these rather... Can we just talk first of all, and what it tells you, Alistair, of these leaders.

37:51And they weren't, as we said in the first half, I mean, it looked like this should have been the Oval Office because there he was greeting them as if he owned the place and it was his country. But they come in, both of them, Ursula van der Leyen, and then Kierstarmus sitting there, and you can see their minds working at 100 miles an hour to think, how do I make sure I don't get derailed here? How do I make sure this doesn't end up really badly for me, for my constituents, for my position with my constituents, whether it's European countries or British voters? And Trump, meanwhile, is sitting there totally relaxed.

38:29He doesn't really care what they think of him. He's kind of free -wheeling. I mean, he may have decided in advance that he wanted to use the word starvation in Gaza. But otherwise, he's going to say what he wants to say. If he wants to lay in to the mayor of London, he's going to lay into the mayor of London. and doesn't bother him, but they are sitting there like, I mean, supplicants is not really the right word because they're, it's sort of more, it's like these overworking brains trying to think, how do I do damage limitation here? How do I avoid the car crash that could come my way from actually crashing?

39:01And it's, I found it excruciate, I find it really hard to watch. I find it very hard to watch as well. And what was interesting, so let's just work a little bit through the planning. So, I mean, I've been informing a lot of American presidential visits, not with Trump, but there is a scale to the presidential visit that other leaders just don't have to deal with. I think one of the reasons why Kierstharmer and today John Swinney's Scotland's First Minister and Vondeline on Sunday, well, as it were, have gone there, rather than, so for example, Fiona said to me, why didn't Kierst say, let's meet in Holyrood?

39:37Or let's meet in one of the Scottish palaces, or let's meet up by anywhere. And the thing is that you've got to visit, so Trump comes over uniquely mixing business and pleasure, bit of golf, bit of this, bit about talking about his mum, opening a new golf course on my view, and meanwhile doing lots of phone work, Thailand, Cambodia, Vonder Lion, big trade deal, but the security costs and implications are massive. So for him to have landed in Turnbri and then said, Kier said to say, right, let's meet at the, let's meet in Glasgow, let's meet Edinburgh, more cost. So they probably say, no, let's just, let's go and see him there.

40:20Also, wouldn't he, he would want that, he would want them to come to him. 100 % and they want to do what he wants. Right. I think that is the, I think that is the dynamic that people find a bit troubling. And then the other thing that happened yesterday was that Kier's wife, Vic, who's a wonderful person, and she goes there, but of course, because Melania is not there, that picture looks a bit strange because there's Trump goes in the middle. Well, if you're the person in the middle, you're the dominant one. So there's Trump in the middle, Starmer there, and then you have this weird thing, and I'd love to get to the box of this because as you know, Katty, I'm a player of the backpipes, the greatest instrument of the greatest country in the world.

41:03The guy who was playing, so normally if I was involved in the planning of an immediate opportunity between the president and the prime minister and the prime minister's wife happening to be there as it were, I would kind of make sure that there wasn't a bagpipe, you use it playing in the background, much as I love the bagpipes, added to which the guy, I don't want it to be too critical, but his high A was off. That was... That is what Alistair Campbell took away from that meeting. The high A was off. Quite on it. But what do you mean was it was sort of surreal that Trump and Kurt Kierstammer were talking about Gaza while this backpipe music was playing in the background.

41:47And then fast forward to after the meeting, sorry, that this, I think it was 75 minutes it went on. Kierstammer sitting there. Now the other thing I know is about seating, right? If you look at the Oval Office, when Trump does a, like, Wizzle Ensequille or like, with Macron and we've seen lots of them, Modi, etc. Where does Trump sit? He sits on the left looking out, okay? If you see similar situations when Keir Starmer's doing these in Downey Street, he also sits on the left, okay? That means that when you're planning those things, So well, that is the president's seat. That is the prime minister's seat.

42:28So that immediately says, I'm in charge here. And then of course, with Vondalayan, what was really interesting was that if you'd had a fact checker in Vondalaya's earpiece, they would have been kept quite busy. But she just decided I don't necessarily like the deal we've done. I know I'm going to get criticized by German business, by the French prime minister who's come out really strongly against it. The Italians are going to be a bit iffy. The Spaniards are going to be worrying about pharmaceuticals, so the Irish, I know that. But I have had to make a judgment that rather than get hit by 30 % tariffs, 15 % is better, I'm going to swallow it and just sit here and I thought the one the bit of wrestling that was really kind of almost bullying was where Trump at the end said I could say this is the greatest biggest deal in history but I'll let you do that and he sort of lent out to shake her hand as if to say this meeting is now over.

43:28That is the main point, dad, laddie, but I basically say it's you that's going to say that. Yeah and she's I mean, she really even more so, I felt sorry for her because clearly, as you say, the European deal, you know, that I know from conversations with EU officials in Washington over the last few weeks that they did put together this plan of retaliation and there were member states that wanted to be much tougher and she has to bring together all of these member states. So, you know, God bless her. She's in a in a nightmare -ish position. But she had chosen to go in there. I mean, she's a tough woman, former German defense minister, her toe chosen to go in there and completely marshal all her emotions in that instance in order and decided to swallow it.

44:14She was going to swallow whatever Trump threw at her. And in a way, I mean, when you said earlier, why didn't she push back on Gaza? Trump, because of the whole trade war and maybe not the Chinese, let's see what happens with that meeting in Sweden and subsequent meetings. But he has everybody in a position where they're walking on eggshells because they're terrified of 30 % as opposed to 15%. And they don't like 15 % and we don't actually even know how much, the details my understanding from talking to business people in Ireland and she is that very vague. And how much of it actually holds up, how much of this investment really happens, but she doesn't want to be, she can't say by the way we've spent X on Gaza.

45:04She can't do anything that might in that moment piss Trump off and potentially change the deal going forward because she can't do that for her European businesses. Yeah, the only thing I would say about that, I think there's more, look, it's a tricky, it's a really difficult position to be in. Don't get me wrong, really difficult. and she's flown in there. All the hard work's been done. They crunch the numbers as much as they can. She knows that he's not gonna go over the detail. He's just interested in the headlines. Headlines are 15%, 700 billion on this, 650 billion on this. You're gonna buy loads of bones, planes.

45:41You're gonna buy loads of our gas. And of course, let's be frank, 50%. We're gonna buy the gas anyway, and the planes, let's see. Correct, and they were gonna buy a lot of the military stuff as well. Yeah. If I think one of the things that wasn't maybe brought out in a way that it might be, one good thing out of this is it does actually facilitate the flow of a lot of military stuff from the US to Ukraine with the help of European Union rearmament. That's, I'd say that's quite a good thing in the Ukrainian context. And maybe that's something actually she could have, I did think at the time, that is something she could have said.

46:13Absolutely. She could have said, and we're very excited that Europe is going to be working closely with the American Defense Secretary to help our friends in Ukraine. Yeah. And of course with the Kyrstaanathin, because my good friend Jonathan Bowel, who I spent years working with Tony Blair, and Jonathan was sitting there, legs to Kyrstaanatha, because he's now his National Security Advisor. And I know Jonathan so well, and I could just imagine what was going through Jonathan's mind as he went from windmills to sedicant and nuclear reactors to golf to this to that. And it's like, you know, Jonathan's very much a sort of get to the point.

46:51Let's get to the point. But I'll tell you the thing that I thought she could have done. You see, he kept, he's obsessed with this idea that if you put a tariff on a country, that country is somehow paying a bill to America. Whereas as you know and I know, the tariffs imposed on European imports, they are going to hit American consumers in the pocket. Eventually. eventually. So far they haven't been doing so, but eventually. The other thing that does happen is that countries that are hit by the tariffs, they can diversify their markets and there's a bit of that going on as well. So I think, listen, I'm not denying, it is in Trump's own terms, this was a win, as with everything he overstates it.

47:34And also, from the European perspective, 15 % is better than 13%, but as Chancellor Merd said, it's still damaging to both. And by the way, I was looking to read in the German media yesterday. I mean, Merz was the more positive of the German voices. The German business organizations, they were almost like the French, in terms of saying this is really, really bad for European business. So, and the other thing to remember, of course, is that Trump can do what he does. Rory and I talked recently, and I've heard you talk about this as well, whether or even has the right to do all this tariff stuff, because it's not a national emergence and it's not a security issue, whereas the role of Congress.

48:18But of course, she has an even more complicated equivalent of Congress, which is these 27 countries, some of whom, like Orban, are desperate to destroy her. Yeah, but even just from the America point of view, in the long run, you wonder whether these tariffs aren't self -defeating to kind of what the project that JD Vance has laid out and Donald Trump assigned up to and it was interesting that Stephen Miller was the other person that was sitting there right in that row of people opposite Jonathan Powell who was it it was Stephen Miller who is the most powerful person pretty much in the White House at the moment and is fiercely anti -European and very opposed to helping Europe anymore and very opposed to helping Ukraine anymore but you've got Mertz who's trying to organize for the rearmament of Europe the financing the Riharmoon to Europe reform the German economy, deal with his own population and their qualms about doing that and his own taxpayers and their qualms about doing that and the German car industry.

49:16And then Trump goes and puts the weight of a trade war on Germany as well. I mean, he's making what was already a very difficult thing for Europe to pull off and that he wants says he wants Europe to pull off even harder because the tariffs that he's just put on them. But the two things he has done, the one thing, the two, one, the two things he has done, he's got NATO countries to spend more European NATO members to spend more on defence. And now he has set in train the rebalancing of the trade relationships. I must be mentioned, Jade, events there, Katty and partly because Roy and I did this sort of, we've had on six parts and the latest one that's out is a me talking to David from about events.

49:58Very interesting interview, by the way, I thought that was great that interview. Well, let me just tell you what JD Vance said about. You see, you could have imagined if JD Vance was this big powerful figure, I know it's some sort of golfing weekend or what have you, but maybe he should have been there with Vonder Lyon. But this is one contribution to this debate so far. At a time, shortly after Donald Trump had posted a meme of Trump in a police car at a very fat JD Vance in another one chasing Barack Obama, who, as we know, is a traitor to America. Breckett's, Tulsi Gabbard. This is Vance's one contribution so far.

50:36A post on social media, the entire European press, this Europe that he hates, I don't know how he manages to read all our press, is singing the president's praises right now, amazed at the deal he negotiates on behalf of Americans. Tomorrow, the American media will undoubtedly run headlines like Donald Trump only got 99 .9 % of what he asked for. What is with this victim mode that they want to do the whole time? Why can't they? It reminds me of the Braxiteria's in Britain. You know, you won, get over it. Why do they have to play the victim? Because that's the whole point of populism, right? It's us against them, and you have to be in permanent fight mode, which means you have to be permanently under attack.

51:17I mean, we see this in populists all around the world. I thought what David Frum said, by the way, about JD Vance, This is not just an American phenomenon. To think of JD as an American phenomenon is think about it this wrong. It's actually got to think of this as a global phenomenon. And the whole point of populism, the whole, actually almost the whole point of populism is that we and you together are under attack. We and our voters are under attack. And so you have to be permanently under attack by the media, which also has the added benefit of undermining the media and telling mega supporters, well, you can't believe anything you say in the media because we've told you, you can't believe anything you say, and we tell it to you repeatedly.

51:57There's one guy talking to victim, Arno Béathreau is a French entrepreneur of some standing, and he's in a very, very, very long detailed thread, which ends, this is Europe's century of humiliation. He says, this deal is an insane transfer of citizens' wealth from Europe to the United States. Now, I don't know if he's figures are right or wrong, but there is a particularly in France, this has had a really, really negative reaction. And Vondalion, how she now plays it, because it does have to, you know, the 27 countries will all have their say. I think that this is the other thing we have to watch is that these things unravel in the detail.

52:39I think, yeah, I mean, look, we're seeing that with the Japan deal, right? There was an ounce a couple of weeks ago. There's clearly lots of holes in that. lots of that is unraveling already. We don't even know all of the details of the UK deal. Yeah, and that was the first one to be announced. But my understanding is that Vandaline was going back to, or she would have had the agreement. She wouldn't have turned up in Scotland and announced this 15 % deal without having had the agreement or of all the 27 countries. They might not like it, but they knew what she was going to Scotland to announce.

53:09Didn't they? I mean, she talked to EU negotiators. It was a constant. She would talk to the Americans, the Americans taught to the constituents, taught to the Americans, taught to the constituents. Doesn't mean they love it. No, no, I'm not sure about that. I think sometimes you have to, she would have been in that position. She would have had a broad sense of what they would take. But then what you're seeing at the moment, I think, is that she's perhaps in some of the respects gone further than some of them thought she would. She also, she was also in Beijing last week for the, for a trade summit with Xi Jinping, which didn't go very well.

53:40Xi Jinping refused to go to Brussels, which is where it was meant to be. They cut it down from two days to one day. They're very angry that Chinese banks and companies have been included in the use latest wave of sanctions on Russia. And again, it was very, and I don't even saw the thing. I don't know how this happened, but when they arrived, she and Costa and the team arrived at the People's Hall and the big red carpet was laid out. And they arrived, we wondered like a mini bus. And if we get, these things shouldn't matter. But I don't want my leaders sort of traipsing out of mini buses looking like they're just, you know, about to get on an easy jet flight from practice law.

54:24You wouldn't get Donald Trump stepping out of a mini bus. I mean, that is not gonna happen. Is it, I don't know if Donald Trump's ever been in the mini bus. You get the beast. I mean, if you're not buggy, you're just being on golf buggies. Yes, that's true. 22 golf buggies for you, right? And by the way, Katty, was that a fake video of the guy walking in front of him as Trump has yet another crap shot hooked it into the rough and he's driving his buggy and then somebody from the hotel filmed as a guy dropping a ball just ahead of him. Can they care? Well, that is the Mr. Scaramucci's point of view on this is that Donald Trump always cheats at golf and is known for cheating at golf and this wouldn't be a tall surprising if that actually happened and that's how he keeps winning another of the wins that he notches up.

55:10So he thinks the video is quite plausible. I'm not a golf player. Are you a golf player? I'm not a golf player. I used to play a lot of golf. If I'd have played, I've played that course to Embrie and pre -Trump era. Well, look at you. We said at the start we were going to talk about Zelensky. Let's do that in question time because you're kindly also staying to do question time tomorrow and I mentioned Jade events there and I can't let you go without asking you what you thought of the final episode of our miniseries. I know you've done a couple of these miniseries on Trip US, you did one on January the 6th which was fascinating, you did another one on Elon Musk where you're both right, eventually Musk has been sort of got rid of, you know, up to a point and we spoke to David from and one of the most interesting things He said, well, he said, you guys wouldn't do a four -part series on Donald Trump.

56:03In other words, he was saying he thinks Vance is more interesting than Trump in some ways. What do you think of that? Yeah, I thought it was interesting. I thought his description of Trump as a crocodile who eats things and basically fairly simple was pretty good. I'm not sure. I think I would do it. I beg to differ. I think we would do a four -part series on Donald Trump. He is sort of fascinating too. But I do think this idea that he has no core is interesting, that he could have been more. He could have gone back to Ohio, become, you know, being Senator, become Governor, built up his own base.

56:31And therefore had a core of constituents to whom he felt loyal as opposed to being this shape shifter, which he's become and kind of happy to say or do anything so long as it pleases the boss. I thought that was, that was really interesting. I wasn't, when he said that the VP has no power. Of course, the VP's job is to walk the dog and make sure that they're a live body and stay alive. And basically that's the VP's job. But he does have power in the sense that it puts him in the and David acknowledged this in that it puts him in the position of front runner. Right. So he has JD does have power in the Republican party at the moment because they're all looking to see whether he's going to be next.

57:16But But I thought it was super interesting, varying, and it echoed what other friends of JD Vance's from the past have said about JD Vance that they knew one person, and now they see him as a different person. Yeah. I also was fascinated by that thing. The story you told about how George Herbert Walker Bush sat down with Reagan days after Reagan won the second term and said, right, I want to go, I'm going for it next time, and I want your blessing. And even though Reagan was a bit sort of troubled by it, it said, yeah, go ahead. and of course the Vance is stymied on that. Vance cannot do anything that looks like he's campaigning to take over the Trump.

57:52Anyway, folks, to hear all six episodes in full, just head to therestispolitics .com and there you can join the restis politics plus it takes two minutes to get set up. You've got the Trip Plus feed, synced straight into your preferred podcast platform. Here is a clip from the last episode of the series with David Frum. Do you think you have to be a bit of a chameleon to operate and survive in Trump's world when you're so close to the top. I was thinking for example, when we watched and re -watched that scene with Zelensky in the Oval Office, I was trying to work out, is that really him or is that him doing what he thinks Trump wants him to do?

58:27When he and Usher went to Greenland and he made that ridiculous speech with the troops there looking really embarrassed to be there as kind of extras in the show, I thought, is that really him or is that him doing what he thinks Trump wants? What's it through these really strange events. And I guess the other one I've thrown is the Munich speech. I think the Munich speech was a really defining moment and it is going to rise. Well, I would give you three different answers, though, three different examples. Okay. So I think the Greenland event was very much about pleasing Trump. The annexation of Greenland is both so far fetched.

59:02And if you could do it, so destructive, what you were talking about is an American act of aggression against a NATO ally. Yeah. That's the end of NATO, the end of the American alliance system, JD Vance would understand this. You want to have a bigger base in Greenland? Nobody would be more delighted by that than the Danes themselves. They've been pressing for that for a generation. It's a budget issue. The United States doesn't spend enough to have enough of a presence in Greenland. The United States has been a presence in Greenland since before it entered the Second World War. That's been a welcome.

59:29The Greenlanders are happy about it. The Danes are happy about it. It's not controversial, but whereas seizing their territory by force, which is what Trump is in mind, is obviously, so I don't think that's a JD Vance project. There was a Zolensky thing I think was very much a JD Vance project. So Trump has no capacity for face -to -face confrontation. Vance who, and we can talk about why this is so, and there's a bit of a mystery here, but who's fiercely anti -Ukraine, fiercely anti -Ukraine, more fiercely anti -Ukraine than Trump himself even. He was staging a confrontation to cut off Trump's retreat, whereas Trump would have avoided confrontation.

1:00:02He precipitated a confrontation to create a Trump or Zolensky stark alternative and to trap Republican senators who like Zelensky and to say no there is no middle way here. You're either on Trump's team or Zelensky's team either or. So I think that was very much a advanced move. I think it surprised Trump in many ways to put Trump into an uncomfortable position, a starker position than he would have gravitated to on his own. Is that because Vance cares about the issue more than Trump does? He doesn't want America involved. Can I say the word bullshit on your show? Can you let us have no bullshit about anti -war or anti -involvement?

1:00:35They're on the other side. So if you enjoyed that you want the full series just join us at the resties politics plus of the resties politics .com you get the full trip plus experience mini series and we're already thinking about our next one by the way monthly bonus episodes completely out -free listening much more just go to the resties politics .com so Katty thanks again lovely to talk to you and I'll see you tomorrow for a question time we're going to talk about Zelenski as I say we're going to talk about Epstein we're going to talk about violence against women, we're going to talk about all sorts of things.

1:01:09See you there. See you there.