444. Question Time: Can Labour Reinvent Itself?

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1:20Welcome to the RESTAS Politics Question Time with me, Maurice Chute. And me, Anastakambo, Hillary Coates, first question, Rory. What are your thoughts on Kierstarmer's mini -Reshuffle? Will Fresh Face his bring some hope or just more inconsistency in chaos? I'm guessing Hillary's not very impressed by the government thus far. No, I think more in -consisting chaos doesn't sound great. We both watched this amazing short social media clip that Number 10 had brought together of Stama announcing his mini -Reshuffle. And it was a pretty peculiar piece of communication, quite sort of starmer like. He says, at least as far as I remember, I'm delighted to announce we're now entering Phase 2 of the government and we've brought in a new team and there was sort of pictures of him at his desk and then he's walking up the stairs and number 10 and then he said, Alexa.

2:06And none of the civil servants' faces were shown. And at no point did I discover what Phase 2 was about. I kept thinking we're going to hear now. In Phase 2 we're going to do something. This is the vision, this is the direction. Instead of which it seemed to be largely about that, he was reshuffling, but I didn't see reshuffling to do what. Yeah. No, there is, is it even a reshuffle? Because people normally associate reshuffles with cabinet ministers being moved. Now, one cabinet minister was moved, but Darren Jones. But just sort of moved sideways. Well, he's been moved. I actually, I'm a bit of a fan of Darren Jones, the Chief Secretary of Treasury.

2:38He's now got this new job that never existed before, Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister. Can I add a second, just sort of quick on that. I mean, what is this job? What sort of roles in the Barrett administration do you think were covered by this? I can't really work out in the Cameron government for the main government. I think what it is is the Kirstaama come back from summer, the domestic debate, I mean, I resent the way that the BBC yesterday said that, you know, reform and flags and hotels has been the story of the summer, given we've had stuff going on in Ukraine, Gaza, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

3:12but certainly Nigel Farage and Reform have commanded an awful lot of air space over the summer. Keir Starmer has come back and basically said, I've got to change things to try to get more of a grip. And on delivery, I think we see Darren Jones' job as his driving delivery. So I guess the nearest equivalent might be in our time, Michael Barber, who was head of the delivery unit. Or Jonathan Powell is the chief of staff. Yeah, but then he's got a chief as the Afro, which is Morgan McSwini, who's the sort of strategy. And it's slightly worries me because the way that Theresa May did it is she brought in Gavambarwal, who'd been a minister in MMP as the chief of staff, but he'd left Parliament.

3:53Yeah, so he was full -time. No, it's a tricky thing is because the other thing about politicians, once they become politicians, they are seen differently internally. But listen, I think Darren Jones, I really like him. I think he's a very good communicator. I think he's a detailed guy. But what I worry about of this setup is even that we're talking about it because, you know, Kirsten, I wanted to interview you on the BBC yesterday. Here I am. I'm back. I'm dealing with the small boats and I'm shaking up the team. That's not a message for the message I want here from the government is what are we doing for the country, medium and long term.

4:31And the other change, yes, it was Tim Allen, who was my deputy in opposition. And then briefly, he stayed around for a few months, but then went off into business. Very successful PR company that I'm still associated with, the Declaration of Interest, Portland. And he's now coming back into the public service sphere. And what I'm hoping from that is that the sort of the strategic messaging becomes clear, because that's the bit to me that I think has been lacking. And final analogy, I guess, if we're going real inside baseball, when Dominic Cummings left the Boris Johnson set up, Steve Barclay, who was a conservative MP from Cambridge Sharon, being a communist, and I must have came in to do this sort of role, which may be a sort of compel, he was the sort of chief of staff for Boris.

5:16I mean, I always worried about it at the time because I was very, very conscious as a member of parliament that you're balancing having to be quite rightly with your constituents and do your concern. The only person who gets a pass on that basically is the prime minister of the rest of us really have to be in our constituency a lot. The whips are driving us to vote in parliament. And I think these jobs are best done by somebody who isn't a member of parliament because I think it should be a real 14 hour day, seven day a week job. and that's very difficult to do if you're an Alexa representation.

5:51I think the other thing that may be part of the thing is that Pat McFadden, over in the cabin office, has been doing a lot of the sort of communications troubleshooting when things are a bit tricky and the piece total safe pair of hands. I think Darren Jones is similar in that. So look, this is a new... Wait a second, now I sound difficult, right? It sounds to me as though there's a potential issue. Well, my point is that I think... More can make Swini Pat McFadden and Darren Jones there's going to be some ambiguity amongst all sevens and who's actually driving this, right? No, the point I was making about Pais is in that freeze pat to do more of the kind of governing strategy and the political strategy, which he did very effectively in opposition with Morgan Sweeney.

6:28But look, this might worry about this, is this is sort of the third or fourth kind of shake -up of the communications team, right? And ultimately, the communications has to be driven by a very clear compelling medium and long term strategy, which you then turn into a communication strategy. Right. And what it wasn't, if it's not a reshuffle in the sense that Regis has been replaced or Bridget Phillips has been replaced, in fact on the economic side to add to the complexity they've brought in Minushafique. Minushafique is a chief economics advisor, is that right? Yeah. Which to me is a journalist going back in that time.

7:07And of course, one of the reasons for the ultimate sort of crumbling of the FATCH government was the fact they had this long -running battle between her and Nigel Lawson over her independent economics adviser, a guy called Alan Walters. Now, I don't know whether Minus Shafiq is of that sort, who's going to cause that sort of trouble. Well, I'd be interested in what you think Minus Shafiq said to do. Is she there to say, actually, we need a very, very radical, clear economic program that everybody can identify, we're going to take risk. This is the big idea. Or is she supposed to be a sort of competent senior civil servant figure who's going to smooth things?

7:53What have I been looking for? Minesha Feeck is a born and out ex -Andrea, she's from a quite a prominent Egyptian family. She grew up in the States. I first came across her because she was the director general in Diffid, and then the permanent Secretary of Diffit for a few years in the early Cameron government. She then went on to run the LSC. She then went to Columbia University in New York, where she was only well over a million dollars a year, but got caught up in the Palestine Gaza protests and barely lasted a year and managed somehow, and the course is that to end up being attacked very, very strongly by the pro -Palestinian side who blamed her for bringing the police to clear protesters.

8:32So when was she at the Bank of England? She's also been deputy to the government of the Bank of England. Between those, between the LSE and DFIT. Right. So, I mean, she's incredibly charming. She's very, very smart. It must have been very bruising in Clondet because she didn't quite work at how to handle that politics. But what do you think he is doing? I mean, is he bringing in a sort of very senior, well -known figure to reassure people? Is he grooming her to be the next governor of the Bank of England? I mean, what's this role about? Well, I think what Starm has been thinking is that his operation has been better on the foreign policy side of things than on the domestic policy side of things.

9:15And I think some of that and a considerable amount of that is down to Jonathan Powell being a complete grown -up, not an ego, just gets on and does the job really, really, really well and is completely loyal. and that he hasn't necessarily had that same sense on the domestic. And of course the single most important part of the domestic agenda is the economy. And I think that maybe within number 10 there's been a feeling that the number 10 in the treasury, the two most important buildings in government, and that he's very much left things to Rachel Reeves, which is fine, and he's totally supportive of Rachel Reeves.

9:55I actually saw him not long ago and was really struck by how absolutely supportive he was of her and not listening to the people who were saying she was this, she was that the other. No, not listening to the Royce Jutty, correct. Not listening to you, Roy. However, I think maybe understanding that no matter how close you are to the chancellor, you also do have to have your own mind on the economy and your own thinking in the economy. And I think that's probably what he's looking for. I don't know that. I've never met Mews. you matter. But I think generally, if I make a general point about this, interesting that Peter Heimann used to work in part of our team.

10:34In fact, he and Tim Allen, back in opposition, worked really closely together and Peter Heimann has written this very interesting substack piece today where he's analyzed a note that Tony Blair sent to us by facts sometime around 2000. He's just got four paragraphs. But what it shows, we'll put it in the newsletter because what it shows is that our operation was driven all the time by relentless, never -ending conversation, iterative conversation about strategy. And then at the weekend, Tony would kind of formulate his and our thinking and set it out on paper. So this famous, uh, safer government stuff is presumably a description of you, Jonathan Powell, and G.

11:20Mandelson and other sitting around talking. And it's Gordon. And it's the politicians. But it's a, and his people outside. It's a never -ending, iterative conversation. So he enjoyed debate ideas. He gets you in and he wants to, and he'd play and argue with you. And then at the end of every week, he'd say, this is what we're now doing. Yeah. Sunday evening, the facts were, this was, the facts were, these were still around. And, well, I know they're still around. And apparently the National Health Service is remains the biggest purchaser of facts machines in Europe, stop getting facts machines NHS.

11:52And it would worin and it would essentially be, we've got our morning meeting to start the week tomorrow. This is what I want to talk about. And do you think that was helped by having Jonathan Powell or Gustav Donnell or someone draft this thing or bring it all together? Tony wrote this. He did it himself. Tony wrote it. Right. At Chekk, usually, or wherever he was at the weekend, he wrote it himself. And sometimes it would say things like Russia underline that it would just say speak to me. In other words, I still want to talk a bit more about this. But it was a guide to... This is him also calling you over the weekend and playing his guitar to you and stuff.

12:28Yeah, and he's calling other people and he's talking to Gordon and he's talking to Robin Kurt when he was following him saying, wherever it might be, but then he would sit down. And I think this is the point, the strategy at the top has to be driven from the top and understood by everybody. And the only way to have everybody understand it is for them to be part of that discussion. And I think that's the bit that I hope Tim Allen, because he of course was part of that team, particularly in opposition. I hope that is what he tries maybe to impose upon this. I often hear from ministers for example that there isn't, it's not a kind of thinking in ink, political operation.

13:08There's not this sort of relentless kind of iteration. Now they may think it's a waste of time, I don't know. But I would argue that a year in, are they in the place where they want to be? I don't think any of them are saying yes. And that means there's got to be a reset. And it may be in the end that you do need to have a kind of change of economic course and some of the big decisions that have been made. But at least, I think here has a sense of the problem. This is about trying to address that problem, but ultimately my message would be strategy has to come from the top. Okay, well next question Gary Harvey who's a trip plus member from Chumsford.

13:47In light of the reform leader of Nottingham Shirt County Council banning local journalists from speaking to him or members of his party, do you worry like me that with the expected increases in reform local and national politicians that it's the start of the slide to Trumpism? Given Farage's friendship with Trump, it's just a little bit of background on this for listeners. The Council banned the Nottingham Post, its website Nottingham Shalive, and the BBC funded local democracy report from access to councillors, press releases, and events. Absolutely, I mean, one of the things that healthiest about local democracy are what remains of our local newspapers.

14:24My whole time as an MP was a loss about the the Cumberland Westwood and Harold for whom I wrote a weekly or by -weekly column, but also the Westwood Gazette, the Cumberland News, BBC Cumberier. These things are really what holds you to account the way that African newspapers come. There's an online called Cumber It Crack, but basically that's what told voters day and day out what was actually happening on a suicide. Yeah, and one of the worst consequences of the whole social media revolution and the the kind of gradual takeover of local media. It has been the sort of death of local newspapers and local media organizations.

15:02So the question about whether this is Trumpism, yes it is, Richard Tyson, the Dubai -based MP for wherever he's the MP for. Not for Dubai. And he's not the MP for Dubai, no. But he's basically saying that they have the right to decide who they talk to, which of course is totally Trumpian. That Caroline Leavitt, brilliant profile of her in the new world by the way this week. She's constantly, basically, picking and choosing who can be in the White House, the Brungman White View. Now, what gets my goat about this one though? One, as you say, is that local people who vote for local colleges, whatever the view of the papers covering them, have a right to know what they're doing in their name and local media is important for that.

15:47But secondly, I imagine if they're listening to the BBC, Nigel Farage's most -loathe media organisation, which nonetheless gives him the easiest ride, they will doubtless be covering the fact that Nigel Farage is on his way to America. Why is he on his way to America? He's going to give evidence to a Republican -controlled congressional inquiry about the threat to free speech in Britain. He's going to talk about what a tragedy it is that Lucy Connelly, this sort of mother -to -reaser figure, was locked up for suggesting that immigrants should be set on fire. He's probably going to talk about the way that the media is completely controlled by the government.

16:25A government which, by the way, gets probably the worst treatment by the press than even Neil Kennick and Michael Foot did. So, the hypocrisy of this is what gets me. Can I just, there's something that's always worrying me, often when we talk about, for us, you quite rightly point out that he gets a lot of media coverage and you quite rightly he pited out that he's managed to skip accountability for Brexit. And of course most of our left -leaning listeners very much love this because then the story is basically for Arge's just a product of a stacked media system. But presumably there is another part of this which is he's also talented.

17:08He's also playing the system well and it would be lovely to get you to reflect a little bit on a couple of things that he does well, because I think it's dangerous to get in the mindset of, you know, as the Lib Dems tend to at the moment, we're not doing anything wrong, we're making all the right speeches, we're not doing right, he's just nobody will ever cover it, or the Labour government were terrifically successful governments just to press advice against it. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. Look, if I were to make an analysis of Nigel Farage, he's a very, very good communicator. And what makes him good?

17:40What makes him? What sort of things do you do well? When we're in Nicholas Terzion, we interviewed at least recently and she said that a lot of the Labour ministers, when they come on the television, they speak and then after they've gone, you don't quite know what they've said. Nigel Farage is very clear about what he wants to say. Both on the micro, here I am, I've got a 30 second clip, this is the message I'm going to land and on the macro, his big points, you know. Now, I disagree with a lot of them but you know what he stands for. He doesn't like Europe. He's very fond of Trump. He thinks the health services a bit dodgy and should be kind of revamped.

18:15There isn't a lot of talk about that too much, but you know where he comes from. And the other thing he has, I mean, I've noticed this whenever, you know, I mean, as you know, I've been trying to get him to come on the podcast for some time. He sort of says yes, but then if it never quite commits. I managed to interview him on one of my BBC programmes, but that's part of the general. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for example, when he had an LBC show, I used to go on it regularly, because I quite like engaging with people whose views I fundamentally disagree with. But the other thing I would say he's very charming.

18:46If I turn up, I might sort of, you know, want to go straight in pilot and say, well, there's bullshit you're talking at the Congressional inquiry. He'll probably say to me, oh God, you lot were very unlucky at all traffic the other night. He'll always remind me that he's a Crystal Palace supporter, left to know if Crystal Palace fans have ever seen in their recently, but anyway, But he's charming and he can be funny. And the other thing I would say about him, he really studies this stuff. And he's relentless. I think another thing that I've observed about politics doesn't matter whether you're talking about this trust or...

19:19Jeremy Hunt said, how much do you want it? Gen Ric or... Right, I mean, famously he failed to get elected upon, I think, is it four times? No more than that, eight, wasn't it? And then finally makes it, right? Yeah. And just keeps plugging away.

19:33Resilience. found new ones, he survives every type of scandal, strange funding patterns coming in from his mates, failing to disclose this thing, but he just doesn't stop and for 30 years, and it's... But it's Trumpian. It is Trumpian, but the thing about studying it, so this is what such, again, underlines the hypocrisy about this naughty, unpressing. Nigel Farage told me he still reads every single national newspaper every day. Now, I think that's a waste of apologism at the time. That takes a lot of time to do that. Now he's not reading every word but he's flicking through and he says what he's doing is trying to work out trends and he's also working out who should I talk to, who's pushing the buttons that I want to push.

20:14So for example he's got an interview in the Daily Express and the front page headline is Farage to Starmer I'll take your job. Right now it's not much of a message in terms of you know polis here and he had that stuff it's a message in terms of I'm playing the game better than they are. So I think it's a combination of things. So he thinks a lot about the media. So when I'm actually, he's reading the newspapers, he's circling headlines, he's underlying people he might speak to, he's putting a question mark, should we be tacking this way? Well, that's quite an interesting angle. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

20:43Which is kind of different to what I would see as a good strategy, which is kind of being clear, and then you dip in and out of that, but he's obsessed with the media. He is a creature of media. When you meet him, and when you bump into him, just have a chat and stuff, He will mainly talk about media. He won't really talk about policy. The thing that I struck me about him is how strange his life has become, because he basically said to me last time I saw him, that it's very difficult for him to walk through the streets. He gets a lot of abuse, very angry with him, I think he has security guards with him, he can't walk, he has to travel in vehicles.

21:22So there's this sort of odd dynamic going on. On the one hand, he's a populous politician who's about having a pint of beer and the pub. And on the other hand, actually, he's increasingly having to live a life which is quite kind of distance. I'm not sure, but I think the I think the security thing is a bit status driven. I'm not saying he doesn't get death threats and all that stuff, but you know, lots of us do. But I so I think it's partly a sort of status thing is making you look more kind of, I'm important. And actually, I think he does still go into pubs and, you know, you hear stories, sort of just wandering in.

21:55So he's got a way of talking and communicating. That is quite Trumpian. It's sort of, you know, it's conversational, it's flowing, it's often funny. And the interpop thing is I also think is almost necessary now in the modern world. It doesn't matter whether you're Zora and Mamdani in New York or whether you are Jokowi who did it a lot in Indonesia, that ability to be seen with people, to be open to people, to be out on the ground, not quite seeing enough of that from Starmer and it's a pity because actually he's quite natural with people one -on -one. Yeah, I think the other thing though is that it's like I saw a video they put out Labour Party Social Media put out of him playing football, but we know it's fine.

22:41But I think when you're, you know, that's a part of it. Okay. I think for Farage, this is why I do relate it to the way that the media treats him. The fact that he can do that stupid video last week that we talked about with the White Furco and pretending as a rapper, what he would say, and he said, this is a phrase he uses a lot of the time, it's just a bit of fun, okay? Well it's not just a bit of fun when there's a consequence of your policy and a consequence of your relentless messaging about immigrants and immigration. We are back to a place where as happened in, I think, with the northeast of England the other day, the P word is now being dorked on bus shanties.

23:20And where he's talking about full Trumpian 600 ,000 deportations driven there by the way by the fact that Rupert low. This is the other thing about Frashe. Frashe is not a team player. Frashe can't keep a team together. No, they keep collapsing. But it doesn't seem to affect him. No, it doesn't seem to affect him because ultimately it's about him. And actually he quite likes having somebody to the right. because he can say, oh, I'm not as bad as Tommy Robinson, I'm not as bad as Rupert Low. But the consequence of him and also the media, you know, the right -wing media, look, I saw a thing on social media the other day, this crowd of people, it looked like, you know, you see with football fans when they're sort of charging through railway stations, but this was just a group of people basically shouting racist, chanting racist abuse, okay?

24:03Another thing I saw yesterday, kids, with one of their parents in front of them filming, and they said, go on then and they started this chant about, what do we want? We want them out. When do we want them out? We want them out now. Talking about immigrants, old waving flags and all this nonsense. And so I think he knows what he's doing and he does it but then he slightly pulls back. Good exchange on Twitter between Paul Hilder and Douglass Carthwell, who was this Tory MP then became a reformer. I guess it was a those days a Brexit party MP who's now moved to the States and Hilda's pointing out that when he was with Karlsweil in 2014 he saw a sort of right wing figure that he could still quite respect who was prepared to call out racism who was prepared to talk about the genuine contribution made by Immigrant Spirits Society and now Karlsweil has gone well off and is saying you know we don't want to eat abdals and Britain, I think, was the phrase, right?