450. Question Time: How Gen Z Took Down the Government

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2:09Hi, it's Rory. Before we start the show, we just wanted to let you know that this is an episode which contains discussion of suicide, rape and sexual violence. Welcome to the RSS Podcast question time with me, Anna Stacamble. And with me, Roy Stewart. And our first question is from Denise Williams. The UN has just confirmed that Israel's committing genocide in Gaza. Israel has already denied this, calling it distorted and false. What's the point of these UN inquiries? And how does this all work, given that Israel has now just launched its major military operation at the Gaza? Well, there's a lot to I'm bundling that.

2:45I mean, I think the UN, I mean, you've said many times, Antonio Guterres, the head of the UN has been declared persona non grata. The line now on any criticism of anything the Israeli government does seems to me to be, this is anti -Semitic and you are all proxies for Hamas, no matter who or what is doing the same. But I think, and ultimately, the judgment as to whether it's genocide will be a matter for an international court further down the track. So I think this is probably the United Nations putting down a marker. They I think they had their top investigative team on it. Others are basically saying even if they don't go as far as genocide, they think that multiple war crimes have been and continue to be committed.

3:38And of course, as you say, it's happening on the day when you're seeing this, they've been talking about it for some time, but absolute move against Gaza City. hundreds of thousands of people on the move again. And basically the biggest operation I think we've seen for a very long time now. I mean this is going, this is now divisions of troops moving in. These are tens of thousands of Israeli troops moving in. This is potentially moving just under a million people out of Gaza City. So this is huge. This is probably the biggest operation they've put together in 18 months. This is since shortly after the October 7th attack.

4:12So this is a massive escalation and of course the Israeli chief of the army staff argued that it was a waste of time. It made no strategic sense. So the military is doing it basically relatively because there are under orders to do it without really believing they're going to be able to win the war on this way and this whole idea that Netanyah who keeps selling to the world and that he seems to have sold to Marco Rubio, he's just been in that they can win the war once and for all by continuing these operations, the army doubts. And I think most mainstream political, open security, open Israel now doubts that you can win a war.

4:49Even if they're very supportive of Israel, very, very anti -Hammars, this idea that there is a victory that you can get that you can somehow eliminate every last person and the thing. Very few people seem to believe outside Netanyahu's cabinet. And there were people outside Netanyahu's house last night, or World Netanyahu lives, protesting on behalf of the remaining living hostages because they basically say that they are now really at risk. Because what's happened is that right through this thing, we've had the Israelis taking military action on this target, that target, this target, that target, and all we're saying that this was because there was a hammers this or a hammers that.

5:29What they've been doing in recent days is raising residential blocks to the ground and saying, this is where Hamas intelligence was run. This is where Hamas this outfit was run. And the limited remaining number of journalists who are on the ground and who are not dead are interviewing people coming out of these buildings. Some of them who already moved several times. times. I mean, they could be Hamas, but they can't all be Hamas. And what they're doing, the trouble is I think that they're radicalizing a new generation in a way that ultimately is going to damage Israel. I had a long conversation with an Israeli friend who came to see me very, very hurt listening to the podcast because he feels that we're not talking enough about how evil Hamas is.

6:18We're not talking enough about Hamas using civilians as human shields. He feels that we are not acknowledging the trauma of Israelis and he was asking me what can an Israeli government do to improve its reputation in the world. And I was saying what I increasingly feel, which is that it's so difficult now to defend. I mean I said to him, you know why you're not allowing international journalists and he said well because frankly we believe international national journalists would just buy the Hamas lines, to which my response was, it cannot go any worse. Literally, it can't go any worse because nobody now believes your spokesman.

6:57Because you're saying this was a Hamas thing and it turns out that the shallow grave and ambulance men have been killed and put in a shallow grave and you're saying these are Hamas fighters. So you can't, and then he went on to say that the, to defend the attack on Qatar that we covered last week saying, well, what do you expect? this is just the same as the Americans killing Osama bin Laden. And again, I said, it's nothing like the Americans killing Osama bin Laden. Osama bin Laden was the most famous terrorist in the world who they had been chasing for 15 years and they'd been working with the Pakistan ISI in order to catch him.

7:35And in this case, who can even name who these Hamas leaders were that they were trying to kill them? What was the purpose? And again, he said, Well, there were two reasons we did it. Number one, because we believe that negotiations are complete waste of time. Hamas is not serious about peace deals and negotiations. So we might as well kill them anyway. And number two, it will encourage them to negotiate. And again, I was saying, but these two arguments don't hold together. And in the process of my final point, they are alienating. Now UAE, for example, so the United Arab Emirates was the only Arab country that's been pretty supportive under the surface of what Israel is doing.

8:13It signed the Abraham Accords with them. It's tried to make all these trade deals. By attacking Qatar, you had an immediate, not just a statement, but you had Mohammed bin Zayed, MbZ, from you, a flying directly to Doha to embrace the Qatri Amir, who had been his adversary not very long ago. The whole Gulf now thinking, whoa, who's next? We thought we were countries which were strong allies of the US. We have had cordial relationships to the Israelis. We've been hosting negotiations between Israel and Hamas and now you're firing missiles into our territory. Why can the Israeli government not see that this is so provocative, so unnecessary, achieve nothing to them?

8:56How does Netanyahu even think about the cost benefit analysis of what they were doing in Canada? What do you hope to achieve given all that he loses in terms of international reputation, international support. I mean, look, I think he went well past worrying about that some time ago, other than as it relates to the United States. So, of course, what you saw with the Marco Rubio visit was almost like a kind of, I mean, it's time it looked like the two of them were on holiday together going to visit this and visit that and all very far and friendly and so forth. And of course, he thinks that he basically think that Trump is never going to haul him in.

9:35Which is correct. And that's true. Which is what Putin thinks too. I mean, the two countries that seem to have complete immunity at the moment, Russia and Israel, as far as the US is concerned, they are there to unbreakable allies. Anyone else, Canada, Mexico, the European Union, Japan, South Korea, India, Australia, or poor old Albo, Albanese, can't even get into sea Trump. Whereas Netanyahu, which is seven months in, still hasn't had a meeting. And then the other thing, we had James Elder from Unicef on leading recently, and I had a series of meetings this week with people in the United Nations, the World Food Programme, and they were echoing what James said, that they have never, ever, ever seen anything quite as bad and quite as difficult as Gaza.

10:22When there was the ceasefire, they were able to get, I mean, the start, we'll put the stats in the newsletter, but they were able to get a lot of people fed. But since then, that it is being made more and more difficult verging on impossible, added to which when they do get stuff in, unsurprisingly, their trucks are being attacked and they're essentially these young men now about the only people who are fit enough, healthy enough to get in there and actually take this stuff off. And I thought the other really interesting thing in the United Nations report was that to their eyes they've decided in the terms of the 1948 genocide conviction.

11:02Genocide is being committed in Gaza. Other war crimes are being committed and they basically say the rest of the international community, they were pointing out this clause that is about other countries being complicit if they do not do everything they can to prevent a genocide. And so this is something that's going to play out in the history of the Middle East probably for decades to come now So your friend who's saying what can they do to get a better standing in the world to stop themselves being seen Frankly as a pariah state now by quite a lot of people and quite a lot of other governments They've got to change the way they're operating But of course Netanyahu politically I don't think it feels he can because he's got these two monsters It's not enough for me to change the way they're operating.

11:50A new primers that come in would also have to have a reckoning with what they've done wrong. And one of the things that you get a sense of in Israeli politics is nobody would be prepared to step up and say, we got this wrong. We apologize for what we've done. We acknowledge that we committed crimes. All they're offering is well, we might stop doing it in the future. But if there's no real internal reckoning with what's happened, it's going to be very difficult to move on. So just to go back to the point of view there, during the pause in the fighting, the welfare program and others, they got in 70 ,000 metric tons of aid.

12:23Fed 1 .3 million people helped bakeries produce 3 million loads of bread every day and distributed 12 .5 million hot meals across 60 community kitchens. That's what they can do when they are able to operate properly. And so since the blockade between March, May 2025, that is what has led to the malnutrition. And as we've said before, and we're talking to James and before that, once you're into that process of malnutrition, then even getting the food in does not necessarily prevent you from dying. Okay, now we've had a lot of questions about what I think is probably the biggest news story, almost of the last few months, which is Nepal, where there has been basically a revolution.

13:11So, Abridle, can you cover what's happened in Nepal? Axe Shares explain a please on what's happening in Nepal with these gen -set protests. Will Huki, can you talk about the gen Z or gen Z revolution in Nepal? So, Nepal, Himalayan country, 30 million people, predominantly Hindus stuck there between India and Chinese Tibet. And it's a country which I know reasonably well. I walked across Nepal in 2001 and what I saw then was a Maoist insurgency. I was being stopped all the time by often 12, 13 -year -old boys with automatic weapons at checkpoints. I was on my way to visit another man who'd been at school with me called Prince Dependure of Nepal and I was going to go and stay with him.

14:04And before I turned up, he tied a bandana around his head and shot his father, his mother, his brother, and then himself but was briefly crowned King while he lay in a coma for a few hours before he died. He was at school with you. Yeah. And Danny Krueger. Yeah, he was in the karate team with me. Yeah, that was how I knew him. Yeah. He was quite a quite violent, I felt, when we were in the karate team together, but I had no idea that he was actually going to turn it to a... It was very strange. So this basically, this semi -absolute monarchy in the pool, a bit variation, I got a bit more constitutional towards the end, was brought down essentially in a mass shooting by the crown prince who...

14:43And what was his political motivation? He seems to have been affronted by his father getting involved in who he could marry and who he couldn't marry. So it wasn't a desire to bring down the constitution. I guess you don't. It seems to have been completely losing his temple with his own family and just killing his whole family and then trying to kill himself at the end of it. And how long before when did the transition to some sort of democracy say? So very not long after his uncle then took over, his uncle was then toppled. And then by the time I was a minister, I was visiting a pool that had had a series of governments, some of them from the Maoist Party, some of them from Congress, some of them from the Communist Party and I went to see, for example, Prachandra, who'd been one of the great Maoist leaders who'd become the Prime Minister.

15:33And since then, these Prime Minister's cycled in and out. They've often done three in one case four terms for a year or so at a time. And this began to develop a very strong idea in Nepal that the whole country, despite these elections, despite getting rid of the king, was run by this completely out -of -touch political elite, which then started this Gen Z Gen Z protests. So this for people who aren't following their generations I think is people born after 1997 so these are people and their teens or late 20s up to their late 20s got out on the streets and they originally started with a campaign against what they call nepo babies or nepo kids and they particularly images all over social media of children of the ruling elite, particularly the foreign ministers' daughters' wedding, and standing with Mercedes and things.

16:28And it's a very poor country. It's still a very, very poor country. GDP per capita, maybe $1 ,400 a year. Most of the money coming to the country is 30 % of the GDP is remittances. People leaving Nepal, 750 ,000 people left Nepal last year to go which presumably is why when what Robert Generick ludicrously calls the Tinder box here, the Tinder box there, in part was fired because the government stopped Instagram WhatsApp, Facebook, and presumably there were missions people, but that is the way that they keep in contact with their families. That's a very big thing, exactly. There were two problems.

17:08One of them was the government shut down these social media platforms because they wouldn't pay digital tax, they wouldn't register with the government, so they were trying to show control over these global media platforms. But the pushback didn't come from the global media platforms, but for ordinary people for two reasons. One of them is, as you say, WhatsApp is the way you communicate with your relatives. Secondly or so because people felt freedom of speech was being stopped. So then the next stage, and this is when we were beginning to record last week. So on Monday, last week, you began to see 8th September, you began to see crowds of young, quite idealistic demonstrators getting into the street, arguing for freedom of speech and human rights.

17:45That then rapidly got out of control and this is something that I think you will be aware of. I remember very much being with demonstrations and streets in Indonesia back in the 90s, how quickly what starts as idealistic student demonstrations suddenly people with masks on motor bikes start ramming police barricades and they began breaking through the barricades and they set fire to an astonishing range of things. They set fire to the Prime Minister's house, to the Parliament, to the Supreme Court, to hotels. With people in banks, they attacked cars and torched the cars. They beat up ministers at which point the police deployed and the police then start with tear gas and then with plastic bullets and then start firing live rounds.

18:28and so more than a dozen people are killed and now the demonstration becomes, we're fighting for our martyrs against the killing and within 48 hours the Prime Minister who'd initially said these are young Gen Z people who don't know what they're talking about had resigned. And the Gen Z protesters, they were part of the discussion that then led to the appointment of a new Prime Minister for now with their approval. So they're absolutely when as Len is part of the decision -making process. So that's why you, you know, when you say it's a revolution, that's kind of that is the wheel turning. Yeah, and it's a revolution, a very Gen Z revolution.

19:06So they've chosen Sushilo Karke, who's the ex Supreme Court justice, who comes from a very political family, husband, and famously hijacked a Nepali plane in 1973 to steal the money that was on it. And she was chosen partly through the discord app that we use with members. And so it's this extraordinary sort of digital engagement platform led to the selection of her. The other thing that you can't believe you didn't weave in a plug of the Tim Berners -Lee episode. Should absolutely. I mean, it was absolutely wide open for it, Roryn. You just, you know. And I missed the thing. Well, the other thing that you'll be very, very aware of is, of course, they were the Genzi protesters were carrying pirate flags, jolly Roger flags from the Japanese anime series One Piece, which will be very familiar with the best thing on it.

20:00No, I'm making a joke there, but this is quite serious because in fact, it shows how protesters become inglobalized amongst young people. People say, you know, what on earth binds together Indonesia where we've had these protests with a big Muslim country in Southeast Asia with Nepal, this Himalayan Hindu state. Well, it's one piece. In both cases, you have Gen Z protesters carrying Jolly Roger signs, pirates against the corrupt government. I read an amazing piece in one of the American papers about the burns. I mean, burning is kind of a big theme in this. And I think historically through protests has been the setting fire to houses, setting fire to people and what they're really, really sure on Burn Specialists.

20:44And there was this piece inside this Burns unit, which was absolutely horrible, reading what had happened to some of the people who were burned. And there's an account in one of the, I think it was one of the former Prime Ministers or former Ministers whose house was set on fire. And if his family just trying to get ever higher within the building, and I think one of them ended up with life -training burns. What do you think the broader implications are? You said it's the most significant thing to have happened in the last few days. What's the India -China context and how does that play? How do they try to calm things down?

21:15What's their role? Yeah, they'll be very worried. I mean, usually when something like this happens driven by social media, conspiracy theories develop and people ask, is this in China's interest? It's definitely not in China's interest. China and India had come to understandings with these governments. And the last thing they want is complete chaos, unknown student protests toppling, releasing 12 ,500 prisoners who've now escaped. But the reason I really thought it was significant is that it's a pattern with Bangladesh, which we covered almost exactly a year ago, and Sri Lanka, which we covered just over two years ago.

21:53In each case, and these are all South Asian countries around the edge of India. These are the only examples I can think of in the last 15 years where you've had these sort of street demonstrations toppling governments on allegations of corruption, the leaders fleeing, their houses being ransacked. This is quite unlike what's happening in Europe, Latin America or Africa, right? Africa, there's been military coups, Latin America, governments have come down, but we've never seen anything like this, and it's that funny moment that we talked about with Bangladesh a year ago, where the security services initially protect the government, stop people from looting, and then when they flip, and particularly when the army flips and says we can't support you anymore, the army then creates these caretaker governments that come in and I suppose this is something interesting about democracy.

22:46These are all theoretically democracies Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and Nepal, Sri Lanka much more than the others for a deep democracy. All of them have actually been growing reasonably strongly, you know, of Bangladesh, Sri Lanka doing better economically, obviously than the poor. And all of them are sent to this fragility of countries from lower income to almost upper middle income countries, which haven't quite got to that stage of wealthy mature democracies aren't in the state of poor autocracies, but where social media has become a tender box, which why people are talking about a South Asian spring, a little bit like an Arab spring.

23:24So it's a phenomenon. It's a thing. Yeah, and I think, you know, one of the, this relates to what we're talking about yesterday with the UK, the social media, there's no doubt is making government within democracies a lot harder possibly than it used to be. My, I don't, I've never been to Nepal. My only link with it, a friend of mine, Peter Chittick, who's a Canadian entrepreneur, and he founded this charity called Stay at School in Nepal, which Fiona and I have supported in the past, and it's, it's a wonderful charity. They go right out to the most remote areas in Nepal and they're trying to keep children in school.

23:55So anyway, check that out, good people. Right, we've got a lot of questions about Russia. Kate is a trip plus member from Poland. Considering that the Polish government sees the recent drone attack as intentional and several figures have called it an act of war, what action would Russia have to undertake for NATO to consider itself at war with Moscow? And how can the Alliance ensure that one day Russia will not be a threat? And And this is something we've talked about before, that this line that we don't know if Donald Trump is a Russian asset, but if he was, it's hard to see what different he would have done.

24:33I mean, Trump's response to this was just extraordinary. It was like, I'm not happy with it, but it was probably a mistake. When you look at the map of where these drones were going and the extent to which the poles with the help of the Dutch and others were sort of bringing them down, very, very hard to see that it's a mistake. And then you have the same Romania. And I think the obvious thing is that this is Putin testing NATO, and he'll be looking at this and thinking, well, they didn't pass that test very well. This is a return to the conversation around Qatar. So if you're one of America's allies and somebody does something to you, Trump's tendency is to say, I'm not very happy with this, but he never follows through.

25:19So if you're a catter, you're setting that thing. Well, what do you mean by allies? I mean, do you include his Canada and ally? Is Denmark and ally? Right, right, right. Do you mean the new allies? You mean the Russia Israel? No, no, no, no, I'm not at the other way around. I mean, if you're Europe, old Europe, or your Qatar, and you get attacked by Russia or Israel, and you think, because your Europe or Qatar, you're an American ally, what happens, is Trump will say, well, I'm not very happy with this. Cat -O would have been expecting much more, right? They would have been expecting Rubio to demonstrate in his trip to Israel.

25:50The anger, Poland, would have been expecting Trump to really speak up. And then that flips it around to your point, which is, what is it that then leads Netanyahu or Putin to really push the envelope to do increasingly provocative things? You would have thought, if you were Putin, that there's not much to be gained. I mean, he's got Trump where he wants him. Why poke the bat? Why take the risk? They all want to prove. Now they can do anything. Yeah. They want to prove they have total immunity and there's nothing that can stop them doing it. And the other thing that related to the drones is that some of them came from Belarus.

26:22And what he do last week in relation to Belarus lifted sanctions on the Belarus airline, Belavia. This is also the extraordinary medium in manipulation that Trump brings in to bear now. He's now running a story which is being loyally reported by some of the British press as though it makes sense. That he's done enough on Putin and Russian sanctions and it's time for Europe to step up. We now need to impose 100 % tariffs against China, in sending which would shatter the European economies. The European economies are exposed to China in a way the US is not remotely. He Trump hasn't done it. Right.