465. Andrew’s Disgrace, Newsnight, and a Centrist Win in the Netherlands (Question Time)

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2:34Welcome to The Rest is Politics Question Time with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alistair Campbell. And Rory, by popular demand, it is imperative that you give us your considered views on the former Prince Andrew and the implications for the monarchy. We had a lot of feedback on your Newsnight interview, both ways. But fair to say you struck a controversial note in seeming to defend the establishment very, very closely. So, Leslie B, what does Alistair think about Rory saying on Newsnight that there are more important things to focus on than Prince Andrew's activities? Does Alistair agree that there should be more transparency in the financial arrangements of the royal family, given that they're taxpayer funded?

3:15Well, of course, the royal family's finances are very, very complicated. They're not quite straightforward. They do get money from the sovereign grant, and that's us taxpayers, the government, paying that. But they also have pretty vast personal wealth, and they have lots of investments, and the Crown Estates run all that. Your Newsnight interview, Rory, I don't know, I got the feeling you were in a really bad mood. I wasn't in a bad mood. Why were you in such a bad mood? Was it the issue? Well, it was a bad mood because they'd invited me on to talk about my book. So I was supposed to be talking about middle land and local democracy and citizens' assemblies, And I turn up and it turns out that what they wanted to do was talk to me about Prince Andrew.

3:52And I developed a very, very strong frustration. Now, on the record, it is horrifying what happened to Virginia Jeffrey. And others. And many, many others. And I think the more we learn about what Jeffrey Epstein was doing and people who associated with him, the more horrifying it is. And these are vulnerable women who are horribly abused, trafficked from very vulnerable backgrounds, and Virginia Jeffers just killed herself. So it's a horrible story. And it is unbelievable that Prince Andrew would continue to associate himself. It's unbelievable that Peter Mandelson continued to stay with him after he'd been convicted.

4:37I agree with all of that. But I suppose I also sit there thinking, OK, I'm on Newsnight, and firstly, I'm irritated about my book, but there's a bigger point, which is the world's blowing up. And I'm very conscious there is Trump, there is C, there is the British economy, there's the debt getting out of control. And I sort of felt that I'd been taken back 25 years, that we were back in a kind of world of British newspapers wanting for their entire headlines for two weeks to talk about what happened 25 years ago. And I wanted to say it was awful. It's terrible. I get it. But surely, and this is maybe why I'm getting too wound up and too kind of psychological about it, I genuinely worry it's avoidance that we don't want to think about the really big, difficult issues.

5:28We don't actually want to hold really powerful people accountable. We don't want to hold them accountable for really big things they do it's more convenient to find somebody who is i don't know what he is eighth in line to the throne hasn't had a public office for 15 years isn't received to public money for something he did 25 years ago and which he hasn't been convicted of and this whole thing takes all the oxygen that can be taught and i i think it's repeated i felt actually it's a very different thing because she's not accused of doing anything remotely similar but i also was frustrated by how much time was spent on rachel reeves and her licensing.

6:02I was frustrated by how much time was spent on Angela Rayner and stuff. I just think the British press loved the idea. We're holding powerful people to account. And this becomes the big story for weeks and weeks. And we're not really holding really powerful people to account for the really big things that matter to us today. Yeah. I mean, I can see where you're coming from. I didn't watch it live, but I got so many messages from people saying, what's your mate Rory up to on Tuesday? That I had a look and I could tell you were absolutely frustrated and pissed off to be And I didn't actually want to talk about it.

6:33I was sitting there and she dragged me in. I was trying to sit on my tongue as probably I should be doing at the moment. We've all been in those situations where we've got in the sort of thought, what the fuck am I doing here? But anyway. You actually told me not to go on the show. I did. Your advice was don't talk about Prince Andrew. Now you're making me talk about Prince Andrew. No, my advice was don't go on to it because you'd been asked on one basis and then we're going to spin you into another one and you were uncomfortable. Would your professional advice be that I should be talking about Prince Andrew?

6:57Look, I've been reluctant to talk about it because in general, I think one of our problems culturally is we focus far too much on things that don't matter and not enough on things that really do. That's why we wanted to talk about the climate in Sudan yesterday, because I feel that very, very strongly. On this, however, I think that we're not just talking about something that happened a long time ago. We're talking about the conduct of people, powerful people in public life ever since. So I think the reason this Prince Andrew story, former Prince Andrew story, just refused to go away is because at so many different stages, he and others have completely mishandled it.

7:33And even though I thought King Charles got very fulsome praise for the statement where he finally stripped her of the titles and said that the thoughts should be with the victims and the palace brief that Camilla was appalled because of the work she does protecting young women and violence against women and girls and so forth. I think that right along the way, they've just not handled it well. And I think this feeds into this idea that there is a sort of for those who already have power, you can get away with a lot more than those who don't. So when the dam burst, you were there on the day that the dam around Andrew was bursting.

8:09And I think that therefore it is important. I think it's about the establishment. It's about, and the transparency point is interesting. They never used to be, they're way more transparent than they were, but there still is a feeling that they are very much above proper public scrutiny. I agree with you that there is a really strong sense in Britain that there is a powerful elite who gets away with things and ordinary people are abused. and I can see completely why Prince Andrew became a kind of big symbol for that idea. But I also think that it tells us something about our culture, that this is a very fundamental trope that we focus on, and we often don't focus enough on structural issues.

8:49We like a villain. We like going after a particular individual rather than looking at the kind of big, knotty, deep issues that really affect us. And we're also really hypocritical. So you and I interviewed George George Mitchell is accused by Virginia Jeffery of doing exactly the same thing. Senator George Mitchell is right there with Prince Andrew accused of doing exactly the same thing by the same woman as part of the Epstein thing. Why didn't we discuss that? Why is the British media not talking about this? I didn't know that. But nobody talks about this. He gets an honorary degree. We all celebrate him on leading.

9:25And for some reason in America, they don't talk about this. Prince Andrew is one of a category of people along with a Harvard lawyer, former prime ministers, and others who have been accused by Virginia Jeffery of exactly the same thing at exactly the same time. But Rui, I say on that that the Americans are wrong. We should emphasize that, of course, Prince Andrew and George Mitchell categorically deny these allegations, but that obviously isn't the general tenor of the public. I just want us to say, yes, absolutely, that whole thing is horrible. the abuse of vulnerable women by men is horrible, but let me take it to another stage.

10:02I suspect that a very large number of not elite people, ordinary people, using or abusing women in the sex industry in Britain are abusing women who are vulnerable, trafficked, and we never hear about them. This is not just something which we can project and we all feel good about ourselves, and here's this evil prince and it's only the elite that does it and they're not accountable. How about the presumably hundreds of thousands of men in this country who pay for sex, who I'm sure are absolutely embroiled in vulnerable, trafficked women who get to feel good about themselves getting crossed with somebody else?

10:39I said the other week that there is something very interesting about the fact that the three people who it seems to me are most identified with the kind of the public ritual punishment in relation to Epstein are Ghislaine Maxwell, Peter Mandelson and former Prince Andrew, all Brits. So is there something about American culture that says we care less about this? I don't know. I think the fact that Trump is going to such extraordinary lengths, it seems to me, to keep this thing under wraps, maybe there is more to come out. And I also don't think we yet know the full story about Epstein and how he got his money.

11:16I don't know whether I can bear to read Virginia Frey's book, because I read a review of it in a German newspaper when I was in Germany last week, which was truly horrific. And I think, to be honest, Rory, I think we did underplay it a bit. And I think that the monarchy has been hit, damaged by it, because it's just not being gripped from the word go. And I think too many of them, this is what happens when scandal hits, is that too many people have been willing to believe somebody who I think we have to accept now has told a lot of lies over a long period of time. Which is true. An exact description of Peter Mandelson.

11:52When scandal hit, too many people were prepared to believe a lot of lies from Peter Mandelson. Well, hold on. Peter got sacked twice. Yeah, three times actually. I sensed you were looking at me there when you said we believe. No, I was looking at Keir Summer and it's the same thing. He assured them of stuff that turned out not to be true and too many people are prepared to believe it. But I also think there's another interesting question which we could get onto on another occasion which is a very, very difficult thing, which is when we judge public figures of any sort, which is why I actually don't like going after public figures in general.

12:25Do we look at ourselves enough? Do we ask ourselves, would I have been tempted to get round my stamp duty on my house? We're very, very quick to condemn and we're a culture that is ferocious about condemnation. And I don't like it. I mean, I'm more comfortable speaking about what's happening at a geopolitical level than I am about... Well, I completely agree with you about the Rachel Reeves thing. I think that's just a classic example of, you know, trying to create a scandal where there isn't really one. But I think on the Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor situation, I think it's been a pretty rum do for a long time.

13:04Right, Rory, let's move off the British royal family to the Dutch elections. John Mark Van Dam from Gloucestershire. Do Rory and Alistair take solace from the Dutch election results? Does it show a possible approach to counter the rise of right-wing populists? Well, go on. Tell us a bit about what you felt about the Dutch Dutch. Shall I give you the rough figures as I see it? D66, which is the equivalent of the Lib Dems, got 26 seats. PVV, which is Hertville, this is far-right party, 26 seats. VVD, which is the right liberals, yeah, Tories, got 22. Green Labour, which is Franz Timmermans, who we interviewed on Leading, who I really liked, got 20 seats.

13:43Now, 10 months has resigned. Christian Democrats, 18. And then these two other far-right parties, one run by Eust Edemanns, nine in this particularly sinister party run by Thierry Baudet, seven seats. So there's an interesting question which is actually if you combine Baird 2023 when we covered this last, the far-right got 41 seats, this time they've got 42. But what's happened is there's been a big drop in Hurt Wilders and there's been a rise in the other far-right parties. And look, historically what has often happened with the far-right is that when they get anywhere near power, they tend to fail with power.

14:17And we're seeing that actually with some of the reform councils here. You know, some of these councils, the reformer running are just, you know, they're becoming a bit of a national joke. But I think what's really interesting about this, you know, when he says to give us solace, the guy who's won, he's kind of come out of nowhere. He's 38. He's called Rob Yetton. He's been around for a while. He's been actually a deputy prime minister before. But he's sort of come from nowhere. I think they were fifth last time around. And it's going to be very, very hard, though, to build a coalition. So this is, and this is, we're back to this point about the, so he is on record as saying, I think it's the first time he thinks where you'll be expected to put together a government when you're the leader of a party with fewer than 30 seats.

15:02So you've got several parties now that are around the same space. Well, I just named seven parties. I mean, what a weird system that is. So he came straight out and said, you know, that probably the most obvious party to start to build a coalition with was the Timmermans. Timmermans have stepped down, but the Labour Green Alliance. But then he's going to have to go maybe further left or maybe a bit further right. He might actually end up having to deal with the Conservatives, the Mark Rutter party, that has been absolutely hopeless. And has gone further to the right. And has gone further to the right to sort of play around with builders.

15:36And has refused to work with the Green Labour Party. And Vildas himself, it was a big blow to them because I think they felt if they could win, as they did last time, become part of the government, even though he wasn't in the government, and then the other parties be seen to try to make it not work, that that would benefit them politically. What seems to have happened is that people have thought, hold on a minute, this Vildas guy, is he really the real deal? Is he actually ever going to be able to do anything? So I think he paid the biggest price and Rob Yetten has been the beneficiary. Just finally on this, Timmermans is quite interesting.

16:15So we both liked him very much and he was somebody who was, I think, quite popular and celebrated when he was at the European Union. And despite being seen in Dutch politics initially as a very mature, grown-up, highly experienced politician, it didn't quite work. You get the impression the Dutch didn't really take to him. Yeah, and maybe we're back to this thing about needing new approach, new style, the sort of whole Mandani thing. Rob Yen, very young, very charismatic, very handsome young guy. So people are looking for something different. I'll tell you one thing on the policy front that's really interesting.

16:50I think I read this right. He's talking about building 10 new cities. Well. So I think Labour are talking about, what, four new towns? Wow. And these are about ten new cities, which would be quite ideal. Wow. And it's already, I think, the most densely populated country on Earth. It's pretty densely populated. And that's what they need to build out. Yeah. So if I'm wrong on that, if there are any sort of Netherlands listeners who think I'm wrong on that, I'd love it if they could let me know. But I think this point about the fragmentation of political systems, of what's happening in our politics.

17:20Because, you know, we're seeing a little bit of that here. You know, the Tories, I was actually at an event the other day where there's a very strong view that the Tories might literally disappear as a party. No, I don't think they will. But that sense that the right is now fractured, the left is fractured. And yet we still have a voting system that is founded on the idea that one of the big two will always win. As I think you've pointed out in the past, we've gone from what was for a couple of hundred years a two-party system, even though the Tories remain and then there was a slip from Liberal to Labour as the second party, to what's effectively now a five-party system at least, isn't it?

17:57Well, if you're in Scotland or Wales, it's even more. Yeah. Right. Should we take a break? Very good. Then back from the break, we'll talk a little bit about Trump and see and there may be some more cheerful questions. Why not?

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21:51Welcome back to the Versus Politics Question Time with me, Alistair Campbell. And with me, Rory Stewart. Katie, what did you make of Trump calling his meeting with President Xi amazing and rating it at 12 out of 10? Well, that guy shows that he watches Spinal Tap. Do you remember? They've got a volume 11 on their speakers when they're playing. I think that's where he got it from what but he said 12 yeah but it's the same joke isn't it i don't well i don't think one of those joke i think it's funny i just think it's part of trump's inability to say anything without it being untruthful exaggerated and hyperbolic completely mad yeah yeah and also it wasn't 12 out of 10 i think i think sometimes with trump the more he overstates there's some little whirring thing inside him saying that didn't go very well.

22:42And my sense of watching the meeting between Trump and Xi that Xi went home happier. Yeah. I mean, it's still staggering. I mean, watch you in the headlines. People are like, Trump cut the tariff from 20 % to 10%. And everyone might think on the basis of that, that China now faces tariffs like the UK, which has got a 10 % tariff for the US. What actually he did was just cut the fentanyl tariff from 20 % to 10%, which means the average tariff on China has gone down from 57 % to 47%. So basically if you buy a$100 good from China, you're spending$50 tariff on top of that. I mean, it's unbelievable given that most of the clothing, toys, etc.

23:30in US supermarkets, Walmart, whatever, is coming in from China. And the effect on the cost of living, particularly on people on lower incomes who are buying Chinese goods, is staggering. And what do you make of the way that Xi used the whole rare earth debate? Because it seemed to me that he played that card very, very hard. I'm not really clear what Xi Jinping gave up. Yeah, he didn't. He, in a sense, won. But I think it's important, I think, that unlike Europe, who didn't really see Trump coming, China saw this from 2016 onwards. So they spent 10 years preparing a playbook to be ready for what happens when America puts up tariffs against them.

24:13Because there was all this talk, even under Biden, of de-risking, de-leveraging, etc. So they had a whole playbook ready, and right at the heart of it is that they took control of between 85 % and 90 % of all the critical minerals and rare earths required for technology and the Green Revolution. They control 85-90 % of the world's processing of copper, nickel, lithium, cobalt, and the rare earths. And the result is that by cutting them off, which is what he did, he essentially shuts the world down. Now, Scott Bessent is saying that was very stupid of him. He played his hand. And now we know, and so we're going to process our own critical minerals and rare earths, They won't get us again next time in three, four years' time.

25:02They're saying the same thing about semiconductor chips. But actually, the reason why China processes all this stuff is even with the latest technology, it is unbelievably polluting, environment and landscape destroying, and nobody in the United States and Europe wants to process these things on a large scale. We've lost the technological capacity to do this because we've had China doing it for us for the last 10, 20 years. I was really interested about that Scott Besant thing because I don't know. I got the feeling he kind of phoned up the Financial Times. Did you read that in the FT? Yes, I did.